Private Funds OOC discussion

[Folgore]

No, you're allowed more than one, but only one/province. I think making them available in too many places would make estates too powerful in comparison to cargo ships, as it's the current limitations that keeps the far less reliable sea trade option viable. If you had one estate in Alexandria and one in Memphis today, there's only one sea trade route that could compete with that, and that would be the Alexandreia-Salamis route, and that would require all 15 ships. As you can only have one person/route, and you have to reclaim a route each year, on top of interruptions because of pirates being harder to dispatch than brigands and enemy fleets also being more probable than enemy armies, there's really little incentive of going for the sea trade option. I only did so to leave place for you guys to have estates.

True, but as it is, some players will be able to build two estates, while others can have only one. This means they'll have more than twice as much income solely because they posted first, which isn't really fun or fair, in my opinion. Perhaps we should limit the amount of estates a player can own to two and allow them to be built in type II government provinces as well. To balance out the trade shipping we then but the limit of ships on 20.

Also, an income of 1411 will only allow you to build a very small private army. With the units recruitable in Alexandreia, I've come up with 2 Machimoi Phalangitai (2 x 330), 2 Pantodapoi (2 x 224) and 2 Toxotai (2 x 103) for a total of 1314 mnai upkeep. That might just about be enough to take Paraithonion or Ammonion, but I'd be surprised if you could take any other settlement with that "army".

[Ashurnasirpal II]

True, but as it is, some players will be able to build two estates, while others can have only one. This means they'll have more than twice as much income solely because they posted first, which isn't really fun or fair, in my opinion. Perhaps we should limit the amount of estates a player can own to two and allow them to be built in type II government provinces as well. To balance out the trade shipping we then but the limit of ships on 20.

Or simply limit to 1 estate? I don't think we should have that much personal funds. Not without some action from the council.

Also, Ibn, I haven't crunched the numbers, but I assume you are fixing the upkeep of the private units through the console right?

[johnhughthom]

Perhaps allowing ships and estates, limiting to one estate gives those using trade ships an advantage. Either two estates, one estate and 7 ships or 15 ships seems fair to me.

[Ashurnasirpal II]

Perhaps allowing ships and estates, limiting to one estate gives those using trade ships an advantage. Either two estates, one estate and 7 ships or 15 ships seems fair to me.

Well, some positions, say Nomarch, require the avatar to own an estate. I guess that's the advantage.

[The Celtic Viking]

True, but as it is, some players will be able to build two estates, while others can have only one. This means they'll have more than twice as much income solely because they posted first, which isn't really fun or fair, in my opinion. Perhaps we should limit the amount of estates a player can own to two and allow them to be built in type II government provinces as well. To balance out the trade shipping we then but the limit of ships on 20.

Also, an income of 1411 will only allow you to build a very small private army. With the units recruitable in Alexandreia, I've come up with 2 Machimoi Phalangitai (2 x 330), 2 Pantodapoi (2 x 224) and 2 Toxotai (2 x 103) for a total of 1314 mnai upkeep. That might just about be enough to take Paraithonion or Ammonion, but I'd be surprised if you could take any other settlement with that "army".

Honestly, that's quite a big army IMO, especially considering that you'd still be making a profit, however small that might be. Giving a higher income so that every Tom, Dick and Jerry could run around with a full army of their own, conquering left, right and centre, would make for a boring game with no strategic considerations necessary and really limit the roleplaying options in this game. It would turn regular armies into nothing more than money saving machines for whoever commands them.

One estate limit is good.

[Myth]

Honestly, that's quite a big army IMO, especially considering that you'd still be making a profit, however small that might be. Giving a higher income so that every Tom, Dick and Jerry could run around with a full army of their own, conquering left, right and centre, would make for a boring game with no strategic considerations necessary and really limit the roleplaying options in this game. It would turn regular armies into nothing more than money saving machines for whoever commands them.

One estate limit is good.

Ah but every Tom, Dick and Harry is a player. We all want to command armies and rule our kingdoms. I trust you don't think 10 people joined this game so that they may grovel before whomever picked the Basileus avatar? The Royal armies are free and that's an advantage enough. Limiting other players in terms of income just furthers the power gap between the Basileus and the regular Strategoi. There is a limit to how many troops can one command based on command stars and rank in the rules, further limitations will make the position of Strategos just pathetic.

[Ashurnasirpal II]

Ah but every Tom, Dick and Harry is a player. We all want to command armies and rule our kingdoms. I trust you don't think 10 people joined this game so that they may grovel before whomever picked the Basileus avatar? The Royal armies are free and that's an advantage enough. Limiting other players in terms of income just furthers the power gap between the Basileus and the regular Strategoi. There is a limit to how many troops can one command based on command stars and rank in the rules, further limitations will make the position of Strategos just pathetic.

Well the position of strategos is quite weak. The point being you want to ally with others or try to get into positions of power yourself. I don't think the point here is players vs the AI. Especially not player with extra money from all the 'private funds'

[Myth]

Funny I thought the whole point was for us to get influence via private means (income from trade/farming, buying troops, income from military victories) and then try to run for office or start a civil war or whatever. Note that I'm not keen on civil wars at all. But I'd rather grab an army and carve a path trough AI held lands and trade with my allies. World conquest will still be very hard with the current rules (can't command more than 16 units per army at best, while the AI can field two full stacks vs you for example).

[Ibn-Khaldun]

Moved OOC discussion over the Private funds into this thread. Will give my view on this later.

[The Celtic Viking]

Ash is right. This kind of game is not about fighting battles or commanding armies, it's about roleplaying and interacting with your fellow players. If we just shower everyone with gold, that would be completely counter-productive to this goal, as the incentive to work together and to gain other people's favour would drop drastically. You can already if you want to build up an army of private units as is, either by making an army like the example you gave, or by saving up and then accepting monetary losses. Or better yet you can pool your resources with someone else and come to an agreement about a co-owned army or something like that.

[Myth]

Well then there must have been a misunderstanding. I thought we all started small, for the most part, but we work trough private (and yes, group as well) means to further the Ptolemaiou faction and complete our campaign goals. And since the campaign goals are basically - kill the Macedonians and Seleucids and take x provinces, I thought we must all some how get the needed troops and go conquer stuff. Right now the AI Seleucids are so much richer than us that even if we all make private armies it will still be a hard task in wiping them out. I mean, they can afford to bribe Tarsos! How much gold do they have...?!

[Folgore]

Ah, sorry for messing up the treasury thread with my discussion guys.

I don't really have a problem with the amount of income, as long as players of equal ranks have about the same income. I'm fine with other players earning 300 mnai per turn more because they built an estate in Alexandreia and I had to settle in Memphis, but if some players can build an additional estate in Memphis while they already have one in Alexandreia, so they earn more than twice as much only because they were quicker to post, that doesn't seem very fair to me. Still, if that's the game, then that's the game and I'll go with it either way. I'm quite enjoying it so far. So that's just my opinion, let's not get stuck on this issue, but focus on enjoying the game instead. :)