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Statement:
One cannot be [insert nationality here] without being European, rather [your nationality here] is how you are European.
For example, I'm Norwegian. I am a European. I cannot be just one of the two, I am Norwegian only as a specific form of European. An Englishman can never be just English, being English is his way of being a European.
Thoughts?
There's this place called America... It's full of Swedes, Anglos, Norwegians, Dutchies. None of them are Europeans though.
Yeah... This is probably a rather dull thread for you yanks. Sorry 'bout that.Quote:
Originally Posted by rvg
I am not European I am a Dutchie. The Netherlands lies in Europe that's all.
No, not dull at all. I find the European preoccupation with their ethnic backgrounds rather interesting.Quote:
Originally Posted by HoreTore
They just happen to exist. America is a different place than Europe.Quote:
Originally Posted by rvg
Europe is a continent, a geographic entity. It is not a mark of identity, for me anyway. Well, only in the sense that nations that are near each other are more likely to share some aspects of their culture. For example, I would share a lot of Christian heritage with a Polish person, that would be hard to find outside of Europe.
I also don't understand why a liberal lefty like HoreTore wants to identify as a European, isn't that just another man-made border? We are all just human beings, no?
Surely that is more of a political issue in American politics than it is in [most of] Europe?Quote:
Originally Posted by rvg
Even within nations there are big differences, I can't understand the Frysian language they speak in the north of the Netherlands and the area's below the rivers that cross the Netherlands are really different, more like the Flemish. Europe is a very old place.
The argument isn't mine. It was made by the Norwegian foreign minister Espen Barth Eide in a lecture on European identity I attended on saturday.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhyfhylwyr
I'm not sure what you mean.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhyfhylwyr
What does being a "European" mean?
This.Quote:
No, not dull at all. I find the European preoccupation with their ethnic backgrounds rather interesting.
That's what I wonder too...Quote:
Originally Posted by Sasaki Kojiro
I see myself as 100% Swedish and 100% Austrian. I act and even think differently depending on in which of my two home countries I reside in. I don't consider myself "European" though. It's not natural for me to, say, put Poland's well being before Brazil's. I don't feel more connected to Poland than I do Brazil, just because Poland is a neighbor and Brazil is way away.
Rhyf, however, had an excellent point.
God put the English Channel there to remind us we are NOT European.
~:smoking:
If we resort to semantics - nationality is just a label indicating origin or identity.
In terms of origin I am English, British or European, based on the fact that England is a constituent part of the geographical assemblege that is the United Kingdom. The UK is located within Europe so ditto for that.
But I am also an Australian in terms of citizenship.
I beleive HoreTore was posing the question in terms of identity - but that is a fluid concept based on one's own identification and the views of those surrounding them. If you as an individual wish to identify as one or the other, it is irrelevant unless a sizeable number of others within a social context also accept that identification. If the majority of Norwegians identify themselves and their countrymen as Europeans then the Eide is strictly correct. Again though, he is merely stating is own views.
HoreTore: do you agree with Eide? More importantly, in your opinion do the majority of Norwegians?
What you see as "ethnic" divisions in the US are actual divisions here - case in point, farming co-operatives don't work well in the UK because the rain (although we could make them work better) and as a result British farming works differently to in France.Quote:
Originally Posted by rvg
The idea of "Europeanness" is a political construct - just like the nation-state. Declaring Europe a superdentity is a way olitical statement - nothing more.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhyfhylwyr
The crucial feature of indirect democracy is the perception of representation, the collective trust in shared aims and expectations that allows the people to put their destiny in the hands of another, safe in the knowledge that even if ‘their’ man doesn’t get the job then the other guy will still be looking after their best interests.
The manner in which this trust is built is the knowledge that you and ‘he’ have a history of cooperation, and that your respective families likewise have a shared social and cultural history of cooperation, all of which allows you to trust that when adversity strikes ‘he’ will act in a predictable and acceptable way.
I simply do not recognise a sufficiently congruent set of aims and expectations to assent to being governed by the common will of the EU.*
Ergo, I recognise a British identity, and that our neighbours are european's of various flavours.
* This should not need saying, but; this does not mean that we should not strive towards harmonious cooperation and collaboration wherever a common viewpoint will bring a more effective outcome.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla
You have co-op's in the UK they just tend to look more like multinationals to continentals than co-ops.
this is a uk co-op with thousands of shareholder farmers, they have the same thing in France or Germany but they have co-op that share machinery or labour etc etc that you dont have.
The rain certainly plays a part in those not being usuable
I was talking more about the sort of local co-ops where people share machinery etc - in the UK farmers complain that they can't do that because of the rain. Not quite true - but you can see the point after the famine rains we had this year (for those not aware, roughly 40-60% of British crops were ruined before harvesting this summer).Quote:
Originally Posted by gaelic cowboy
Between different European countries I think the commonalities are more numerous than the differences.
English people might have more in common with Canadians and Australians than with Germans or French. But then again, all of these would fall under the umbrella of "western culture". A German or Frenchman would be able to integrate into Australian society fairly easily. Of course Australia doesn't count as European for obvious reasons.
I'm largely in agreement with Rhy's post, but if this is about the EU, I never saw cultural convergence as the most important reason. I would not object to Turkey's accession if and when they qualify.
Side note: I learned the other day that the Maltese language is Arabic. Imagine my surprise.
I edited my original post to reflect that yes i would agree with that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla
on the rain you guys have no idea how bad a year it's being at all at all, we have people with there cattle in since the end of the summer and there are a few horror cases that I heard of anecdotally of june.
I am not sure, which is why I posted here to get more opinions. Eide further claimed that such an understanding was obvious in large parts of europe. He gave Italy as an example, and argued that it's unthinkable for an Italian to identify as Italian, but no European.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gaius Scribonius Curio
He further argued that a lot of Norwegians do not identify as Europeans, which he argued is impossible.
Lets try an ancient example; were Spartans and Athenians 'Greek'? Well not 'Greek' perhaps but they would have identified themselves as 'Hellenes' and shared many of the same festivals (Olympic games) and religious conceptions (both revered the Dephic Oracle). But that did not make a Spartan an Athenian or vice versa. They identified themselves with their own particlar type of Hellenism... what they called a polis. Yes they were both Hellenic but it did not make the the same; without a shared polis a shared politics is impossible. I am not Greek or Spanish or French and trying to make us all 'European' doesn't change the fact that identify myself as British.
That implie that "European" is a purely geographic designator, though, because the Canadians and Australians have a culture which is about 90% European imports even more so than the Americans -Canada is actually more like Europe than the UK.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kralizec
I think he's stretching the point - and Norway is a fairly bad example of "Europeanness" really - if Norway was more "European" is would likely look much more like the UK, which is really a Nordic country that got mugged by the mainland. If identity is a matter of self definition, and most Norwegians do not identify as European, then it follows that Norway is not really part of Europe.Quote:
Originally Posted by HoreTore
I think I am British, therefore I am.
I do not think I am European, therefore I am not.
The only time there should be any other factor in consideration is determining legal citizenship.
And a quick test to see who has a British passport and who doesn't. Economic migrants can remain with indefinite leave to remain.Quote:
Originally Posted by Greyblades
~:smoking:
I am a Homo Sapien which resides in a location called "Europe" on an off-coast landmass called "Britain". This is located on a planet called 'Earth' which orbits a star called 'Sol', which is located in the Milky Way galaxy cluster. I am as European as I am British as I am a Terran as I am Milkywayian.
Nothing more to it, really.
Not to you perhaps but europhiles don't see it like that. I do by the way. They are just like multiculti's, they have this sum that needs to be 100Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiaexz
The latino vote. The black vote. The Cuban vote. etc, etc. I'm not sure if there's still an Italian vote, Irish vote, German vote, etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by rvg
I've not seen the same behavior of naming and focusing, even with the larger and older immigrant waves in Sweden (that is people that can now vote), say Serb/Croats/Bosnians, Iranians and Irakians.
In a way, you're what Horetore is wanting Europe to be: US=Europe with subgroup=country.
I would say that Scandinavian is a stronger self-identification than European in Sweden.
Is it impossible to post questions or arguments that interest you here, without everyone else assuming that it's your own opinion?Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironside
A shared cultural/historic heritage is important. Frenchmen have spilled more english blood than they have chinese. And yet, if they do not consider themselves to be in the same boat as the chinese (when the relationship is more or less coloured by indifference), why should they see themselves associated with the english when that relationship has been marked by conflict?
Statisticians and campaign managers push those labels and terms. The average American cares nothing about your specific ethnic background.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironside
\\
I was walking through Harlem the other day.Quote:
Statisticians and campaign managers push those labels and terms. The average American cares nothing about your specific ethnic background.
A hulking Latino teen exclaimed to his buddy, as I passed the two of them on the street, "Holy :daisy:, a Ruskie!"
I'm not even Russian...
Cheery anecdotes aside, your college peers are not average Americans...
We all know you're atypical though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiaexz
Your anecdotes are not representative of average americans... No one I have worked with cared about ethnic backgrounds, and when I say worked I mean a real job, with real people.Quote:
Originally Posted by Montmorency
But yours are?Quote:
Your anecdotes are not representative of average americans... No one I have worked with cared about ethnic backgrounds, and when I say worked I mean a real job, with real people.
I can assure you that people pay quite a bit of attention to ethnicity.
Not claiming mine are representative just throwing out my experiences since you seemed content in using yours to back a point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Montmorency
I'm sure people pay attention, but I have doubts that people go the next step in defining others by said ethnicity. But then again, people made a stink about Obama's ethnic background, so perhaps you are right.
I distrust Germans
Is that where I put this answer?
War is a sound basis for intimacy. Of course, after we kill a lot of Chinese I would happily enter a political union with them as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by SwordsMaster
...
The 100 years war was more of a dynastic conflict than anything else. "French" troops fought on both sides. Around the same time the low lands were disunited and frequently at war. They're mostly okay with eachother now and are called the Netherlands. Spain, Italy, Romania and others did not exist as single states either.
European nations have a long and turbulent history of dealings with eachother, including but not limited to warfare. I think that people tend to focus on the differences and take the similarities for granted without even noticing them. The shared culture between European countries is greater than that between the various ethnic groups of India.
I've traveled through a decent amount of European countries and in my experience I find it easier to relate to the people there of my age than I do with Dutch people of older generations. Provided that they speak either English or German, because otherwise I can't talk to them- but nowadays most people below the age of 30 do.
Fair enough - but this always looks different from an English perspective, where the Lion has ruled for almost a thousand years - before that we had near 300 years of the Wyvern.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kralizec
Scandinavia has existed as a region for that long, but no country in mainland Europe is as old.
You pointed to the unity of the Netherlands - which has been achieved after you fought out your differences. From where I'm sitting we've got at least two more wars to come between France, Germany and Britain.
Imagine if I was typical. What a world.Quote:
Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla
More wars? Doubtful. A war would simply be idiotic and whoever takes part will lose, there cannot be a winner.Quote:
Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla
This is literally the most smug thing I have ever readQuote:
Originally Posted by Tiaexz
And I read my own posts
It is self-deprecating humour. If spoken aloud, it would be "Imagine if I was typical, what a world.." [cue: faux-shiver]Quote:
Originally Posted by Strike For The South
I honestly don't. Why do you think that?Quote:
Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla
When I see how much interconnection there is between, say, France and England these days, I find it hard to see it possible to drum up the amount of anger and hatred towards the other nation that needed for a war.
You can't wage war without demonizing your enemy. And doing that get's exceedingly hard with today's access to information.
I think cue actual shiver running the planet is scarier, but not by much. shiver at this end - the idea of myQuote:
Originally Posted by Tiaexz
I think you'll find that there is always more room for war - nobody thought Germany and Britain would go to war in 1914, the level of interconnectedness made it absurd - but it happened, and it started without demonisation, that came later.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV
I don't see a war between nations happening really, massive unrest in the southern countries is pretty much a given though
I might as well go the whole hog so an put me address down asQuote:
Originally Posted by Tiaexz
Gaelic's House
County Mayo
The Province of Connacht
Ireland
Europe
The Eurasian Supercontinent
Earth
The Orion Cygnus Arm
The Milky Way Galaxy
The Local Group Galaxies
The Virgo Supercluster
The Observable Universe
It sounds to me like a take on traditional, racist European Nationalism that has expanded to include as many people of European descent as possible. Sounds like more racism to me.
You Euros really gotta come over to my side of the pond and see how much better it can be. ~;) Sure, we got our racists, but the majority of people here do not strongly identify with a racial heritage like you Euros do.
Are you geographically divided by culture and language?Quote:
Originally Posted by Vuk
No, but you Euros don't just identify by culture and language, but also very strongly by race. That is why you are so excepting of spreading your loyalty to a wider Europe, where every nation therein shares a majority white race, but not a common culture or language.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV
European people in the last century are and have been very prone to racial indentification.
Are you often making stuff up as you go along, or is this thread somehow special?Quote:
Originally Posted by Vuk
I call your conclusions coco as coco puffs.
This is literally the most smug thing I have ever read.Quote:
Originally Posted by Strike For The South
Um, no. The idea of a "white" race is an American invention - an attempt to cling onto an identity which was divisible, rather than sharing one with black people. Europeans picked up race-theory from the Americans.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vuk
In Europe "white" is not a race - Germanic is, Anglo-Saxon is, Gallic is, Italian is, Iberian is, Celtic is, Gaelic is, I'm sure I've missed some.
Ah, yes, Slavic, Nordic and Basque... probably more.
You'd call us all "white" except for the Iberians who you'd call "Latino", but we can tell the difference between each other - as noted in the thread where we Anglo-Saxons tried to defend our womenfolk.
Nah... it makes sense if you've read his posts on reading posts, like I have.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kralizec
Got your back bro.
I am.... Baffled.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vuk
And kinda amazed at how you linked "identity" with "race". No need for me to explain it though, pvc did the job well.
Most of America still identifes strongly with the hyphenQuote:
Originally Posted by Vuk
Traditionally they have claimed that the people of each separate nation are superior to the rest, but what do you think this embrace of a wider Europe is? It is simply expanding their concept of a 'pure race' to fit all Europeans. Europeans don't share a common language or culture, so what else is there that links them aside from geography? Say what you will, but that's what it looks like to me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla
Pretty much every nation claim superiority. What confuse you is that European countries have the ability to claim ethnological superiority, whereas USA can only link their viewed superiority to politics.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vuk
This however have absolutely NOTHING to do with a white / non white thing. As a Swedish guy, I see myself having more in common with a guy from Spain (who I perceive as brownish), than an Ukranian, eventhough the Ukranian is way more white.
As to Language, western Europe do share one. Latin, it has set its trace in all the western European languages so they are closely modeled. Learning, say, Spanish is a breeze compared to Russian, as Russian has a whole other language base.
Western Europe also very much have a shared culture, although sometimes on opposing sides in the shared history.
Sorry, but quite often your posts comes off as you sprouting nonsense You made up on a whim, with little or no facts or experience of what you discuss. These last posts were no exception.
In essence:Quote:
Originally Posted by Vuk
Those who identify with a European identity(like Barth Eide), will claim that we most certainly do have a common European culture. It is that culture theyidentify with.
Those who do not identify with a European identity typically do not believe in a common European culture.
My own culture, Norwegian, is definitely strongly linked with mainland Europe. Norway was under a union for 400 years until the 19th century. At the end, people started thinking about independence. In order to be independent, they would have to create both a state and a nation. How did they build the nation? They travelled and learned from other Europeans. Bjørnson, Grieg, Ibsen, Munch, Tidemann, etc, they all travelled to Germany, France and Italy. The Norwegian nation, and the foundations of modern Norwegian culture, was built on strong influences from Vienna, Frankfurt, Paris and Tuscany. Our art, our laws, our customs and our books - none of it is different from the rest of the continent in any meaningful way.
It isn't that we eurorealists don't agree on a common European culture, we just don't believe in the post-nationalist superstate that europhiles want the EU to be.
Which kind of asks the question that since IF there are aliens out there, since we are all from the 'The Observable Universe' are we not all the same? Where do you draw the line between us and them?Quote:
Originally Posted by gaelic cowboy
Depends on what level of issue you talk about, no?Quote:
Originally Posted by SoFarSoGood
In an interstellar war I'd be on humanity's side every day of the week. In a racial conflict I'd have no problem popping off some negroes.
National issues is where it starts getting problematic for me. Having double citizenship, it would have to be a fight worth fighting for, for me to join it. Otherwise I'd just happily switch to my second home.
This is wrong, essentially because of this:Quote:
Originally Posted by Vuk
Kadagar also brings up the important issue of Latinate culture, which is different to what you Americans call "Latin" culture. This is why Western and Northern Europeans identify more with each other than with Slavic Nations, which have far less Letinate culture - mostly because they have an Orthodox rather than a Catholic heritage.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV
The concept of "race" also means something different to Europeans because we actually come from the places we live in, mostly, so when I talk of "Anglo-Saxons" I don't just mean a genetic component, I mean a shared history and culture which current Anglo-Saxons have ownership of.
I am Anglo - Scottish. Does that mean I might soon need dual nationality?Quote:
Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV
lol, Anglo-Saxons didn't just appear in England anymore than any American just appeared in America. They were immigrants/conquerers, the same as Americans.Quote:
Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla
1500 years agoQuote:
Originally Posted by Vuk
See the difference?
Also - we've stopped referring o ourselves as "Geats" or "Jutes" or "Anglians".
No, I don't.Quote:
Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla
Your lack of understanding is not my problem.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vuk
Americans who know nothing about Europe - God save us from the lot of you.
OK - get this - in England if you go 150 miles in any direction you'll wind up in a place where people speak a different dialect, if not language, and have different shaped noses to you.
We are that different. Americans are descended from people who left their homes, Europeans are mostly descended from people who have (more or less) stayed home. It means something to be from somewhere in a way it doesn't, and can't, in the US
I don't think you could be further off the mark here, Vuk.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vuk
As to your question in bold, you answered it yourself - geography alone means that the European countries have more shared interests in terms of trade, defence etc. Race and even culture doesn't have much to do with it, all that matters is that you are a liberal democracy that accepts human rights etc - this is where some of Turkey's problems come in.
Oh come off it. I can do the same thing, and I'm in North America.Quote:
Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla
In some case, yes, but were those same people there 300 years ago?Quote:
Originally Posted by lars573
There are working farms in the South West, not just big ones, that have been in the same family for 500 years or more.
Any time an American or Canadian comes to the UK to stay they seem stunned by the level of regional variation we have here - and the size of the regions.
In some cases, yes.* There's a town here in NS that was founded over 400 years ago. No one can dispute that Europeans weren't here before 500 years ago. But to say that in those intervening 5 centuries in the places that have had the longest settlement (like the Atlantic coast of North America and the Caribbean) that the kind of regional variation you talk about in Britain doesn't exist is silly. It just covers larger areas most of the time.
*Not me personally though, my moms ancestors didn't leave Cornwall until the 1880's. According to her family stories and my googling of the surname Tippett.
The only one linking this thread to EU-membership is you, frags.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
Than I am the only one with some brains, of course it's about EU membershipQuote:
Originally Posted by HoreTore
have long heard that americans abroad are considered arrogant, and believed that consideration well justified. having scanned a bit of this thread it seems some europeans are well equipped to recognize arroance.
Americans are seen as very friendly really, worst are Russians and Israeli touristsQuote:
Originally Posted by The Lurker Below
Also Israeli border control. They're the worst.
In any case, most Americans I've met are really really friendly, so I have to go with Frags there. Truly, 'tis a cold day in hell.
A true sign of a fanatic is that any topic is turned towards the fanatic's favourite topic.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
Right, over a larger area. Anyway - the point is that Vuk is wrong, and that there is a difference, at a fundamental level between a Frenchman and an Englishman. The area you're talking about would be equivalent to a small country, or at least a region like "the North of England" in Europe. The level of variation, and the sharpness of the divisions is also much more pronounced here - such as the difference between Devon and Cornwall.Quote:
Originally Posted by lars573
Your family left Cornwall, so does that mean they were English?
That's a trick question - anyone called Tippett in the 1880's would have considered themselves to be "Cornish" and more akin to the Welsh than the English. This is the sort of nuance that is completely lost in the US, particularly among "Anglos", where there is massive regional variation in England this doesn't seem to be reflected in the American diaspora.
Thats because Americans are just well travelled cashed up Europeans. :smoking:Quote:
Originally Posted by The Lurker Below
Yeah?Quote:
Originally Posted by Papewaio
Well in that case Ausies are just drunk(er) Englishmen!