Why this adulation for Ghandi, this fraud?

A question: Am I the only one irritated when people put Ghandi as a political model, a racist, deeply Hindu so believing in the natural inequality and supporter of the Caste system, paedophile and incestuous, the man who always supported the strongest and the richest? The man who told the Jews to obey to Hitler? His politic was a complete and total failure, but he got credit for the Independence (allegedly peaceful, of you don’t count the hundreds of thousands who lost their lives during the process) against a Power that was ready to give it if you were not Communist (and Ghandi was far of it).

You're kidding, right?

He's adored because of his immense contribution to, you might say foundation of, the theory of non-violent resistance.


It's no different from people admiring Henry Ford for his contribution to industrialization even though he was a rabid anti-semite and the US publisher of the protocols.

Is it because he decided that the path to independence needn't be covered in blood?

I'll give you racist, but the rest is a joke.

I thought Ben Kingsley did a fabulous job and doubt that just a mere movie could cause all the effects listed in the OP.

I knew ghandi. He was a prick.

Sources?

Calling him a pedophile... I assume you are referring to him marrying a 14 year old... Or is there something else darker then that you can reference?

Is this tongue in cheek or a real in depth look at the Sikh side of independence... Gandhi was the speak softly option, the Sikhs the stick.

I hate Ghandi. I always try to wipe him off the map as soon as I can. Cant let him get nukes or he goes all trigger-happy. Better to put him down early than deal with a nuclear India later on.

Gandhi was deeply flawed and can be criticised due to a wide variety of reasons, but the ones you mention are not even close.

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Originally Posted by Brenus

deeply Hindu so believing in the natural inequality and supporter of the Caste system

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Let's begin with this. Gandhi coined the term Harijan (translates to God's people). He used it to refer to the lowest of the Indian castes who were shunned by everyone else. He was vehemently against untouchability and the persecution of lower castes. So this, is pretty much entirely wrong.

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Originally Posted by Brenus

paedophile and incestuous

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Source?
What is known is (through his autobiography no less) that he was married off as a kid, as was prevalent in those times. And he was already doing stuff with his wife before either of them were 18.

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Originally Posted by Brenus

the man who always supported the strongest and the richest?

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I don't know what you mean by the strongest and the richest. Specific examples would be welcome.
People here, specially Hindus, criticise him because he was too supportive of Muslims, and at some level was partly responsible for sowing the seeds that lead to the partition of India.

All that said, I do agree giving Gandhi full credit for independence is unfair. While he played a considerable role, but other factors and other people, contributed just as much.

I have to go so not so much time:
But:
Peaceful and non-violent: 9 millions Refugees from India going to Pakistan. 5 millions from Pakistan to India. Eatimated death tolls: 500,000. Is it a very succesfull policy or a complete failure? Followed by wars, one still active.
Ghandi: Bath by his nieces.
Ghandi: Fight temptation having virgins in his bed.

That is: "Perform sexual activities with under aged girl 33-15 without penetration" in the modern Crown Court Language, crime classified 3.

Have to go, will be back for the rest of the myth.

Down with us-syndrome

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Originally Posted by Brenus

I have to go so not so much time:
But:
Peaceful and non-violent: 9 millions Refugees from India going to Pakistan. 5 millions from Pakistan to India. Eatimated death tolls: 500,000. Is it a very succesfull policy or a complete failure? Followed by wars, one still active.

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Well, considering we're talking about a region as ethnically and culturally diverse as Europe almost, with huge differences in education, quality of life, full of religious strife, where 600-700 millions live...

Not that bad...

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Ghandi: Bath by his nieces.
Ghandi: Fight temptation having virgins in his bed.

That is: "Perform sexual activities with under aged girl 33-15 without penetration" in the modern Crown Court Language, crime classified 3.

Have to go, will be back for the rest of the myth.

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Considering the rest, I don't believe actually sleeping beside another person is considered a sexual activity. Bathing can be, in theory, but we have to consider the context. Old people being bathed by nurses in homes sexual? Or people in hospitals?

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Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube

Even though I think non-violence is over-rated, myself. Its basically just asking to be assassinated, if history is any indication. :shrug:

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True dat.

This thread reminds me of something I ran across while writing my undergrad thesis.

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“Mr. Ghandi and Herr Hitler were two hardly distinguishable specimens of the same species of foreigner… both of them superlatively exotic, and the average member of a British Cabinet may have reasoned in November 1937 that the guileless tamer of Ghandi [Lord Halifax] had at any rate ‘a sporting change’ of taming Hitler likewise. Were not both these political ‘mad-mullahs’, non-smokers, non-drinkers of alcohol, non-eaters of meat, non-riders on horseback, and non-practicers of blood-sports in their cranky private lives?” (Arnold Toynbee, Survey of International Affairs, 1937, vol. I, p. 338)

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Just like with MLK in the US, unsuccessful groups often seek a hero. When a genuine one does not present him/herself, any scumbag with a bit of political skill often suffices.

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Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube

Even though I think non-violence is over-rated, myself. Its basically just asking to be assassinated, if history is any indication. :shrug:

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Really? As a soldier, would you be able to shoot an unarmed person?

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Originally Posted by Sarmatian

Really? As a soldier, would you be able to shoot an unarmed person?

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I think he's referring to how all the figureheads associated with non-violent protest have "assassinated" listed as their cause of death(MLK, Ghandi, etc).

Ghandi, Mother Teresa, Martin Luther King Jr, Nelson Mandela - all deeply flawed and even reprehensible characters who gained a misplaced 'hero' status because of the fact that they happened to oppose some sort of 'Imperialist' order.

I don't know how much truth there is in many of the particular accusations surrounding Ghandi. But sleeping naked with young women screams abuse of power to me, whatever he claims to have been doing.

When I think of Ghandi I cannot help but say; meh.

Okay more like I have a level of ambivalence that is generally a stalemate between "great that he managed to start a precident of great change without bloodshed" and "did he really have to campaign for independence, what's wrong with emancipation and equality in a joined India and Britain?"

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Originally Posted by Brenus

A question: Am I the only one irritated when people put Ghandi as a political model, a racist, deeply Hindu so believing in the natural inequality and supporter of the Caste system, paedophile and incestuous, the man who always supported the strongest and the richest? The man who told the Jews to obey to Hitler? His politic was a complete and total failure, but he got credit for the Independence (allegedly peaceful, of you don’t count the hundreds of thousands who lost their lives during the process) against a Power that was ready to give it if you were not Communist (and Ghandi was far of it).

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Originally Posted by Hooahguy

I hate Ghandi. I always try to wipe him off the map as soon as I can. Cant let him get nukes or he goes all trigger-happy. Better to put him down early than deal with a nuclear India later on.

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hahaha !!!!:laugh4: these Loyalist British and Americans just love to Colonize and plunder !! and When Great Gandhi wiped them in their 300 years of colonization of India with just peaceful words, not even rebellion, they are just on too much heat of wrath and anger!!!!
WHO are you to Insult and tell some lies of others and yours from hatred to Gandhi That Shaked the World and puted a cruel Imperialist Empire to its Knees?!! have you seen him personally?!! what have YOU done for the world?! WHICH GREAT PERSON DID YOU HAVE IN YOUR USA & BRITAIN & EUROPE?!!! Calling Gandhi Racist !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:laugh4: oh my god !! what should i say to you Imperialists & RACISTS & IGNORANTS & HATERS !!!! it was your USA & BRITAIN that tortured non whites and then non Europeans with their Racism & Segregation Idealogies and supportions and depleted the poor countries resources of the world !! it was your Colonist Imperialist Governments (USA & BRITAIN & FRANCE&....) that raped women and sold them to slavery!!

and the Sex Matter??!! oh dont want me to bring a large scroll of Peviations and Perversions even sex scandals of your abhorrent peoples in your Imperialist governments & Military, because this thread will be completely full !!!!

Oh my god what a disgusting thread !!!!! what a Disgusting World !!!!!

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Originally Posted by Greyblades

Okay more like I have a level of ambivalence that is generally a stalemate between "great that he managed to start a precident of great change without bloodshed" and "did he really have to campaign for independence, what's wrong with emancipation and equality in a joined India and Britain?"

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JFR crediting Gandhi with beginning the struggle for independence of India is wrong. Political leaders, even before Gandhi had entered the scene, had been struggling to get some sort of autonomy for India.

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Originally Posted by rajpoot

JFR crediting Gandhi with beginning the struggle for independence of India is wrong. Political leaders, even before Gandhi had entered the scene, had been struggling to get some sort of autonomy for India.

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And they had been getting it - the Indian Parliament was created under the Raj, the argument was over the timetable, Ghandi and others wanted to go quickly and were insulted by the British Administration telling them India wasn't ready to be self-governing.

The British were dead right - which is why today Imperial India has been split into three belligerent nations, one of which has only just had it's first peaceful (relatively speaking) democratic transfer of power.

Brennus may have a point - that Ghandi's non-violent agitation was largely a hastening which was ill-advised. Rather like the US before it, India insisted on a violent transformation to self-rule rather than a managed one. On the other hand, without Ghandi it would have been the same, but with a war.

“these Loyalist British and Americans just love to Colonize and plunder” Dam right.:laugh4: And what is this in relation with my point of an overrated hero?

“not even rebellion” You should read more about recent history of India.

“what have YOU done for the world?!” Personal Attack: Well, I could point out that I went to Kurdistan after Desert Storm Operation and Provide Comfort, and I (not only) save the life of a small girl in giving my blood in a village near Erbil.Attachment 9271
I, with others, refurbished the Local health Centre and I, with others, had a vaccination Campaign for the young Children for the valleys in the neighbourhood. Ah, I was near to forget: evacuation of the injured civilians during the Turkish Air Attacks against the so-called bases of the PKK..Attachment 9270
For the rest of the World, I went in 2 others countries in war (Bosnia & Yemen), and help to organised 2 vaccination Campaigns (the then Zaire and Niger). Next questions?

You approve the fact that an old man, in order to test himself asked to sleep with naked (very) young virgins is ok for you, then you claim a moral superiority…

“it was your USA & BRITAIN”: ?:laugh4:

“And his views were not always popular; "abnormal and unnatural" was how the first Prime Minister of independent India, Jawaharlal Nehru, described Gandhi's advice to newlyweds to stay celibate for the sake of their souls.” “(which included, alongside his famed chastity, sleeping naked next to nubile, naked women to test his restraint)” The Independent, 07 APRIL 2010. Article from Jad Adams, Book: Gandhi: Naked Ambition is published by Quercus .

“Eighteen-year-old Abha, the wife of Gandhi's grandnephew Kanu Gandhi, rejoined Gandhi's entourage in the run-up to independence in 1947 and by the end of August he was sleeping with both Manu and Abha at the same time.” “While in Bengal to see what comfort he could offer in times of inter-communal violence in the run-up to independence, Gandhi called for his 18-year-old grandniece Manu to join him – and sleep with him”. Great. No?

About Ghandi and the Non-violence: George Orwell had to say about him:
Gandhi has been regarded for twenty years by the Government of India as one of its right hand men. I know what I'm talking about-I used to be an officer in the Indian police. It was always admitted in the most cynical way that Gandhi made it easier for the British to rule India, because his influ#ence was always against taking any action that would make any difference.
The reason why Gandhi when in prison is always treated with such lenience and small concessions sometimes made when he has prolonged one of his fasts to a dangerous extent, is that the British officials are in terror that he may die and be replaced by someone who believes less in "soul force " and more in bombs.

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Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla

And they had been getting it - the Indian Parliament was created under the Raj, the argument was over the timetable, Ghandi and others wanted to go quickly and were insulted by the British Administration telling them India wasn't ready to be self-governing.

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Most 18-year-olds would feel offended if someone was to tell them that they weren't ready to face life and start making their own decisions. Saying that to an entire nation had a good chance of offending the majority of the populace.
The British might have been right, I agree. A more gradual approach towards independence might have led to a more peaceful future. But then it is in the nature of man to want to make their own mistakes and learn from them the hard way instead of just accepting someone else sage advice. Had it not been so we wouldn't have been men at all.

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Originally Posted by PanzerJaeger

Just like with MLK in the US, unsuccessful groups often seek a hero. When a genuine one does not present him/herself, any scumbag with a bit of political skill often suffices.

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I love you

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Originally Posted by Rhyfelwyr

Ghandi, Mother Teresa, Martin Luther King Jr, Nelson Mandela - all deeply flawed and even reprehensible characters who gained a misplaced 'hero' status because of the fact that they happened to oppose some sort of 'Imperialist' order.

I don't know how much truth there is in many of the particular accusations surrounding Ghandi. But sleeping naked with young women screams abuse of power to me, whatever he claims to have been doing.

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In what way "deeply flawed"?

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Originally Posted by Greyblades

When I think of Ghandi I cannot help but say; meh.

Okay more like I have a level of ambivalence that is generally a stalemate between "great that he managed to start a precident of great change without bloodshed" and "did he really have to campaign for independence, what's wrong with emancipation and equality in a joined India and Britain?"

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Your idea of emancipation and equality of joined India and Britain would have been - British PM sitting in London, parliament in London and government in London. All British naturally, with an Indian or two thrown in to "represent" them.

True "joined India and Britain" would be the exact opposite - but naturally no one in Britain would accept to be governed from New Delhi by Indians.

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Originally Posted by Sarmatian

In what way "deeply flawed"?

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I think he means that they turned out to be just people after all.

As for Greyblades' "joined India and Britain" I can't even imagine how that would have worked.

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Originally Posted by rajpoot

Most 18-year-olds would feel offended if someone was to tell them that they weren't ready to face life and start making their own decisions. Saying that to an entire nation had a good chance of offending the majority of the populace.
The British might have been right, I agree. A more gradual approach towards independence might have led to a more peaceful future. But then it is in the nature of man to want to make their own mistakes and learn from them the hard way instead of just accepting someone else sage advice. Had it not been so we wouldn't have been men at all.

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Compare With Canada, which severed it's final formal ties with the British Parliament in the 1980's. Bear in mind that Canada had/has similar ethnic and religious issues to pre-Independence India and concerns were expressed explicitly by British officials.

Maybe it's because the British were seen as White - which feeds back to Brennus' point, we were assumed to have ulterior motives because we were seen as filthy barbarians.

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Originally Posted by Slyspy

I think he means that they turned out to be just people after all.

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And tell me a person in politics (of note) who didn't? By that reasoning everyone is a deeply flawed character, from Caesar to Obama, making the point moot.

Gandhi was a great man, far greater than most leaders of today.

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Originally Posted by Slyspy

I think he means that they turned out to be just people after all.

As for Greyblades' "joined India and Britain" I can't even imagine how that would have worked.

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Gritted teeth and a lot of patience. Stranger things have happened and few more deserving.

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Originally Posted by Brenus

About Ghandi and the Non-violence: George Orwell had to say about him:
Gandhi has been regarded for twenty years by the Government of India as one of its right hand men. I know what I'm talking about-I used to be an officer in the Indian police. It was always admitted in the most cynical way that Gandhi made it easier for the British to rule India, because his influ#ence was always against taking any action that would make any difference.
The reason why Gandhi when in prison is always treated with such lenience and small concessions sometimes made when he has prolonged one of his fasts to a dangerous extent, is that the British officials are in terror that he may die and be replaced by someone who believes less in "soul force " and more in bombs.

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That would be a sign of non-violence. It's persistant rather than anything. Taking very aggressive non-violence actions may very well force the other part to use large scale violence, which will quickly escalate. India was quite a big powder cag and you had people like Chandra Bose (who joined the Axis during WWII) as influencial players.

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Originally Posted by Brenus

“these Loyalist British and Americans just love to Colonize and plunder” Dam right.:laugh4: And what is this in relation with my point of an overrated hero?

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Because These Insults or So Called Criticizes to gandhi is by your lovely Imperialists that hate him!! no normal person with no Imperialistic Political View can hate gandhi!

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Originally Posted by Brenus

“not even rebellion” You should read more about recent history of India.

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i know, i meant an angry rebellion led by Gandhi himself not peoples by themselves!! Gandhi Denied any violence, he just encouraged people to sit-in like the SALT Strike.

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Originally Posted by Brenus

“what have YOU done for the world?!” Personal Attack: Well, I could point out that I went to Kurdistan after Desert Storm Operation and Provide Comfort, and I (not only) save the life of a small girl in giving my blood in a village near Erbil.Attachment 9271
I, with others, refurbished the Local health Center and I, with others, had a vaccination Campaign for the young Children for the valleys in the neighbourhood. Ah, I was near to forget: evacuation of the injured civilians during the Turkish Air Attacks against the so-called bases of the PKK..Attachment 9270

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What?! your Soldier?! and How an AGED soldier (because it was 1991 and now you must be upper than 45!!) have plenty of time to play Total War and be Online in ORG for most of his time?!!!!
anyway we suppose your right, but in 1991 USA Promised Kurds to help them against Saddam Genocide and there to be autonomous, but as soon as Saddam left Kuwait they betrayed the Kurds and they left too, shamefuly, so no major war was in Kurdistan in time of US Invasion, the war started when USA left, and it was then, that time when Franceua Miteran(dont know spelling french) requested for 3 years!!, to pass No-Fly Border in Kurdistan of Iraq's Skies.(The Land War Continued!) AND The Turkish Bombards was in the Area where was peace and there was no american army there, americans were in southern while the northern and center was safe & in Peace!!(and 90% Bombards were after 2008)
so any other lies ?! AT ALL, how can a good man hate an undeniable Peace & Freedom Symbol of Humanity?!(whether you agree with it or not)

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Originally Posted by Brenus

You approve the fact that an old man, in order to test himself asked to sleep with naked (very) young virgins is ok for you, then you claim a moral superiority…
“it was your USA & BRITAIN”: ?:laugh4:

“And his views were not always popular; "abnormal and unnatural" was how the first Prime Minister of independent India, Jawaharlal Nehru, described Gandhi's advice to newlyweds to stay celibate for the sake of their souls.” “(which included, alongside his famed chastity, sleeping naked next to nubile, naked women to test his restraint)” The Independent, 07 APRIL 2010. Article from Jad Adams, Book: Gandhi: Naked Ambition is published by Quercus .

“Eighteen-year-old Abha, the wife of Gandhi's grandnephew Kanu Gandhi, rejoined Gandhi's entourage in the run-up to independence in 1947 and by the end of August he was sleeping with both Manu and Abha at the same time.” “While in Bengal to see what comfort he could offer in times of inter-communal violence in the run-up to independence, Gandhi called for his 18-year-old grandniece Manu to join him – and sleep with him”. Great. No?

About Ghandi and the Non-violence: George Orwell had to say about him:
Gandhi has been regarded for twenty years by the Government of India as one of its right hand men. I know what I'm talking about-I used to be an officer in the Indian police. It was always admitted in the most cynical way that Gandhi made it easier for the British to rule India, because his influ#ence was always against taking any action that would make any difference.
The reason why Gandhi when in prison is always treated with such lenience and small concessions sometimes made when he has prolonged one of his fasts to a dangerous extent, is that the British officials are in terror that he may die and be replaced by someone who believes less in "soul force " and more in bombs.

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ah and thats some other ****ing lies & False propagandas Those damn Imperialists say!!!! what! you want people Believe the words(Lies) from the Enemies of the India & The World?!! you bring sources from ENGLISH(& American) Colonists and Imperialists that Their Great Power and Cruelty was defeated and Kneel ed before Gandhi's Powerful Peace andlenity?!!! and thus, they hate him, the cause of The End Of Colonization and Slavery & Great Profits from India?!?!?!? now thats why you hate him!!! you are just a supporter if Imperials and their Lies, what much should i expect ?!!

Anyway, not you nor your Imperialist Friends can blacken The Great Personality of a Peace & Prosperity & Freedom & Purity & Fighting Peacefully against Tyranny & Oppression & Colonizations Symbol in Human's History That was not even Darkned in his years of Prison & Torture in English Jails!!
how can a man both be lust worshiper and The Peace & Freedom Fighter!!?? maybe MAYBE he has done somethings in his Younger age,and nothing truly shameful, just Naturality of Younger ages, but in times of taking action for the world's Peace & Freedom, no doubt that he will FAIL!! because he is lying or the way false!! we had so much people did for peace & Freedom for the people in the world against tyranny & oppression & Imperialism, but many failed, and only some Like: Jesus, Martin Luther King, Mother Teresa, Nilson Mandela.....came out prosperous and successful and Being Loved & Worshiped!! so how a deviated man can Win and shake the Great Imperialistic Power?!!

i think you and your Imperialist Friends hate This kind of symbols and Ideologies and make Lies for them, because 1. The Imperialist Rulers & Governments of yours see it against their Slavering & Colonization Benefits, so the Blacking and Insulting Propaganda Starts!! 2. because Western countries did not/have not/will not have these Great Peoples. Mother Teresa & martin Luther King & ... does not Represent Westerns, Christians & Black People fought against Racism, i dont think they represent the Western!!
plus, you couldnt even have a Lie reply for others of my tells that you didnt mention it!(Somehow jumped & absconded!) because you dont have anything to say!!

and sorry, i dont mean any offense or insult to you, i just cant accept ignorance & listening to some lies by the Powerful, to make you believe what is not !! i will defend Peace & Freedom and its Leaders & symbols until my death & to last blood, Against the Dictators and Imperialists!!

Hope Freedom and Peace For All Universe !!

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Originally Posted by Brenus

A question: Am I the only one irritated when people put Ghandi as a political model, a racist, deeply Hindu so believing in the natural inequality and supporter of the Caste system, paedophile and incestuous, the man who always supported the strongest and the richest? The man who told the Jews to obey to Hitler? His politic was a complete and total failure, but he got credit for the Independence (allegedly peaceful, of you don’t count the hundreds of thousands who lost their lives during the process) against a Power that was ready to give it if you were not Communist (and Ghandi was far of it).

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Same thing as Mother Teresa, a very good PR campaign.
you push the good angle, and the bad stuff stays hidden or is even just actively ignored by the majority.

Writing in red making it more what? Real?

First who told you I was a soldier? Second, you accused me to be a liar, it is a pure insult.
Attachment 9280 Attachment 9281 Attachment 9282
I was 32, not THAT old… I will pass on your accusation of being lazy or unemployed, even if the two are not related as the Conservative Media try to let us believe.

I know it is hard for you, but you have to deal with the reality, and not with phantasms.

So, Nehru (the man who brought independence to India) was an imperialist lackey, when he said that Ghandi sexuality was “abnormal and unnatural”

You answer to the facts that are presented for debate by shouts, insults and denegation. Bring facts against what I say. Did Ghandi slept with nubile young underage girls: yes.
Did he sleep with his grand-niece (polite way to say having sex): yes.
These facts are not denied by his followers/admirations, they are minimized. I don’t.
There are enough pictures of him and the 2 young girls to sustain this.

Come with proofs contradicting that my sources. By the way, I have 3 sources: Indian, English (in favour of Ghandi) and Socialist movement. Yes, I am a lefty. Sorry. The reference to Orwell should have given you a hint, and everybody knows that Orwell was a horrible Imperialist…

About supporting imperialism and so, I prefer to laugh. This kind of vocabulary was employed in the past, by the like of the Gestapo or GEPEOU. You don’t know me, don’t know my history, and the little I gave you, you even don’t understand it.

By the way, Ghandi was never tortured by the English, Some more dangerous opponents were, not him. Well, each time a social movement could endangered the English Empire, he pulled the strike off (1919, 1922, 1930 etc)…

Ghandi didn’t push the English out. The English left because they wanted to do so. It was better to leave the countries to self-exploit and it save money. They will finance the police and the army that will kill the strikers. Do you notice that no country break ties with the former Colonial Power? Even Algeria, having gained its independence after a long and bloody war against France, exported his youth to go to work in the French Factories…

Ghandi was there just to deliver the intact factories to his Indian Landlords and factories owners Friends.

You, my friend, are the toy and the puppet of the Imperialists, not me.