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Undefined and dangerous
A run through some discussions at Tech Review landed me at Foreign Policy
This little gem seems to nicely sum up my reservations about the "War on Terror"; many of the same issues surround the "War on Drugs" though the link is not made in the article.
http://www.foreignpolicy.com/article..._war_on_terror
Enemy or criminal? The answer to that question raises issues for "justified" surveillance and the whole boundary question.
Who precisely are the subjects of this war? Everyone guilty til proven innocent? Everyone an enemy til shown otherwise?
Can such an ill-defined "War" actually ever end?
These are all intensely political issues. Where is the debate?
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Re: Undefined and dangerous
Meh.
For being the proclaimed (without anyone really asking them to) carrier of freedom and democracy, USA sure seem to be a bit fuzzy on what the terms entail.
That became obvious around the millennium shift, I think we all can agree.
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Re: Undefined and dangerous
"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean -- neither more nor less."
"The question is," said Alice, "whether you can make words mean so many different things."
"The question is," said Humpty Dumpty, "which is to be master - - that's all."
(Through the Looking Glass, Chapter 6)
Still a classic :clown:
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Re: Undefined and dangerous
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gelatinous Cube
Freedom is a buzz word that is itself quite meaningless in American English. More important are the connotations and associations that the different political camps place on the buzzword. The far right does a nifty double-think where Freedom actually means something quite oppressive, but they pretend its not a buzz word at all. The left simply doesn't use the word without sarcasm or irony.
And I call your Right-Left mindset Myopic and Delusional!
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=52b_1...xjXtCxXjIXy.01
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Re: Undefined and dangerous
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fisherking
Napolitano is a pretty decent guy, always liked him on the Daily Show as well.
It's nothing new though, it's either that politicians are not really deciding a whole lot and get paid to decide "the right way" or it's your lovely voting system that completely erodes the differences in party politicies. Or maybe it's a bit of both.
Of course you get a little bit of this in other countries as well, it just seems like the USA have managed to make this trend exceptionally strong, USA#1 I guess. ~;)
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Re: Undefined and dangerous
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fisherking
...And I call this idiot someone who crossed the treshold into New World Order conspiracy lunacy a long time ago, and should be tarred and feathered for his nonsense.
"What if he would just shut up?" is the question I have after watching that.
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Re: Undefined and dangerous
Quote:
Originally Posted by
HoreTore
...And I call this idiot someone who crossed the treshold into New World Order conspiracy lunacy a long time ago, and should be tared and feathered for his nonsense.
"What if he would just shut up?" is the question I have after watching that.
"tarred" has two "r's" in it. What is this, you third language or something?!?
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Re: Undefined and dangerous
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Originally Posted by
Seamus Fermanagh
"tarred" has two "r's" in it. What is this, you third language or something?!?
No.
Obviously I meant to determine or indicate the tare of, especially to weigh in order to find out the tare.
How did that confuse you?!? You mexican?!?!!
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Re: Undefined and dangerous
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Seamus Fermanagh
"tarred" has two "r's" in it. What is this, you third language or something?!?
*gently hugs Seamus, pats on back - and go "there, their, they're"*
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Re: Undefined and dangerous
[grumbles]Verdamnt European polyglots. Better in my own language than am I......[/grumbles]
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Re: Undefined and dangerous
And here I thought the English teacher I had had had had no effect...
:bow:
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Re: Undefined and dangerous
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Originally Posted by
Kadagar_AV
*gently hugs Seamus, pats on back - and go "there, their, they're"*
Where does Seamus use any of those? :inquisitive:
Quote:
Originally Posted by
HoreTore
...And I call this idiot someone who crossed the treshold into New World Order conspiracy lunacy a long time ago, and should be tarred and feathered for his nonsense.
I know it's faux news and I blame him for being on that but what exactly is so bad about his point that American politics hardly provide a real choice anymore? Or did I miss anything?
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Originally Posted by
HoreTore
"What if he would just shut up?"
The use of "would" in an if-sentence is further only allowed under certain conditions, you may want to look that up.
Here's a start: http://data.grammarbook.com/blog/ver...e-vs-if-i-had/
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Re: Undefined and dangerous
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Originally Posted by
Husar
Where does Seamus use any of those? :inquisitive:
Wow, we went from grammar/spelling police to joke nazi in like 2 posts...
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Re: Undefined and dangerous
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Originally Posted by
Husar
I know it's faux news and I blame him for being on that but what exactly is so bad about his point that American politics hardly provide a real choice anymore? Or did I miss anything?
He's well into the paranoid idea that "the powers that be" are constantly conspiring to screw him(the "regular citizen") over, and that political debate is nothing more than a show to hide the hidden power structure.
Ie. a conspiracy nutjob. Unsurprisingly he endorses Ron Paul, the nuttiest of the bunch.
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Re: Undefined and dangerous
Quote:
Originally Posted by
HoreTore
He's well into the paranoid idea that "the powers that be" are constantly conspiring to screw him(the "regular citizen") over, and that political debate is nothing more than a show to hide the hidden power structure.
Ie. a conspiracy nutjob. Unsurprisingly he endorses Ron Paul, the nuttiest of the bunch.
Whether Paul would be any different is irrelevant.
It is not so much a conspiracy as it is just the way US politicians operate.
Money is speech. Big Corporations give to both parties and individual politicians to get them elected.
Then the politicians want to keep the money coming so they vote in ways that benefit their benefactors.
The result is that laws favor these corporations and the people get ignored or sold out.
The two parties may have different talking points but the end result is the same.
The end result is a one party system that favors the money givers.
You are just buying a line, go back to you leftist roots and take a closer look.
The system need overhauled but there is no politician that is going to go along with it so long has they want to keep their job.
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Re: Undefined and dangerous
Quote:
Originally Posted by
HoreTore
He's well into the paranoid idea that "the powers that be" are constantly conspiring to screw him(the "regular citizen") over, and that political debate is nothing more than a show to hide the hidden power structure.
Ie. a conspiracy nutjob. Unsurprisingly he endorses Ron Paul, the nuttiest of the bunch.
Yeah, just like the NSA would never spy on all of us...
Ron Paul 2012!!!
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Re: Undefined and dangerous
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Originally Posted by
Fisherking
It is not so much a conspiracy as it is just the way US politicians operate.
Money is speech. Big Corporations give to both parties and individual politicians to get them elected.
Then the politicians want to keep the money coming so the vote in ways that benefit their benefactors.
But that is a conspiracy unless the companies say openly what they're up to. They certainly seem to let the politicians know who also do not claim to be supporting the secret desires of companies. If that is not a conspiracy, what is? Do they have to invent fancy names for their inner circles?
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Re: Undefined and dangerous
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Originally Posted by
Fisherking
Whether Paul would be any different is irrelevant.
He's definitely different in the sense that he's the only US politician who I wouldn't be surprised to see sprouting some sovereign citizen nonsense. And that's quite relevant.
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Re: Undefined and dangerous
Quote:
Originally Posted by
HoreTore
He's definitely different in the sense that he's the only US politician who I wouldn't be surprised to see sprouting some sovereign citizen nonsense. And that's quite relevant.
It beats politicians going along with the Military-Industrial Complex or any other complex where the money trumps the populous.
Whether you favor collective rights or individual rights a power structure at the beck-and -call of moneyed interests does not serve the people or the national will.
Hamstringing the NSA also neuters their technological providers or contract corporations. That government money goes elsewhere.
The same with the War on Drugs or any other government programs. Follow the Money.
It is just a corporate oligarchy with representatives bought by them.
It is also happening to the EU.
If you are happy with that kind of government just because the say what you want to hear, who is the nut case?
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Re: Undefined and dangerous
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fisherking
It beats politicians going along with the Military-Industrial Complex or any other complex where the money trumps the populous.
Whether you favor collective rights or individual rights a power structure at the beck-and -call of moneyed interests does not serve the people or the national will.
Hamstringing the NSA also neuters their technological providers or contract corporations. That government money goes elsewhere.
The same with the War on Drugs or any other government programs. Follow the Money.
It is just a corporate oligarchy with representatives bought by them.
It is also happening to the EU.
If you are happy with that kind of government just because the say what you want to hear, who is the nut case?
It's a matter of degree. There is some truth to what he said, but it's taken far into loonieland. And use of the term "Military-Industrial Complex" is usually a tell-tale sign that someone has crossed that boundary.
Corporations do act without morals and screw over people from time to time. But to say that corporations have no morals at all, that all they do is screw over people, that's taking things too far. Same with politicians. I'm sure some go into politics to enrich themselves. But at least as many do so for idealistic purposes.
And sorry - the Sovereign Citizen movement is the height of ignorance. Anything beats being one of those loonies.
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Re: Undefined and dangerous
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Originally Posted by
HoreTore
It's a matter of degree. There is some truth to what he said, but it's taken far into loonieland. And use of the term "Military-Industrial Complex" is usually a tell-tale sign that someone has crossed that boundary.
Corporations do act without morals and screw over people from time to time. But to say that corporations have no morals at all, that all they do is screw over people, that's taking things too far. Same with politicians. I'm sure some go into politics to enrich themselves. But at least as many do so for idealistic purposes.
And sorry - the Sovereign Citizen movement is the height of ignorance. Anything beats being one of those loonies.
I dont have the lifeforce in me to fully read all of the above, but, the M.I.C. is not a figment of a tinfoil-hat conspiracists imagination, it is a real entity, Dwight Eisenhower warns of its dangers in his farewell speech.
In fact, at the closing stages of WWII, U.S. commercial magnates where of the opinion, initially, that investment in the weapons industry would be folly.
Then, I guess someone showed them the numbers...
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Re: Undefined and dangerous
Quote:
Originally Posted by
The Black Douglas
I dont have the lifeforce in me to fully read all of the above, but, the M.I.C. is not a figment of a tinfoil-hat conspiracists imagination, it is a real entity, Dwight Eisenhower warns of its dangers in his farewell speech.
In fact, at the closing stages of WWII, U.S. commercial magnates where of the opinion, initially, that investment in the weapons industry would be folly.
Then, I guess someone showed them the numbers...
Most conspiracy theories are based on some real entity. The Illuminati is a real thing, for example. The problem is when the nutjobs convert the Illuminati from a late 18th century political club lasting around a decade into a millennia old organization hell-bent on world domination.
The same is true for the "Military-Industrial Complex".
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Re: Undefined and dangerous
Quote:
Originally Posted by
HoreTore
It's a matter of degree. There is some truth to what he said, but it's taken far into loonieland. And use of the term "Military-Industrial Complex" is usually a tell-tale sign that someone has crossed that boundary.
Corporations do act without morals and screw over people from time to time. But to say that corporations have no morals at all, that all they do is screw over people, that's taking things too far. Same with politicians. I'm sure some go into politics to enrich themselves. But at least as many do so for idealistic purposes.
And sorry - the Sovereign Citizen movement is the height of ignorance. Anything beats being one of those loonies.
Not every politicians is totally corrupt and not every corporation is evil incarnate. I am dealing in generalities of course. But it is the general situation that is the problem.
In the vote to defund the NSA the vote drew a line. Left and Right were on both sides of the issue.
Those opposed were those getting the money from defense contracts etc. Those opposed were not. That makes it pretty clear. At least for that majority they were willing to put aside public options and legal concerns for the money.
The American Media is also to blame. Their corporate interests or their personal views color the output. No one will criticize or investigate in anything resembling objectivity. Without an independent media there is little way to shine the light on corruption.
It is a bit interesting that you have such a great fear of such a tiny minority group. I rather doubt you know much about them. You and the FBI on the same side. LOL
Of course you seem to be on the conservative side of this argument while I am on the left.
Are you turning conservative on other issues as well? Where is your revolutionary zeal?
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Re: Undefined and dangerous
[QUOTE=Fisherking;2053570947]I am dealing in generalities of course. But it is the general situation that is the problem.
I'm not saying it's all sunshine and roses. I'm simply saying the world isn't about to implode. The view I got from the rant you linked was that the world is going to implode soon.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fisherking
No one will criticize or investigate in anything resembling objectivity.
I see no need for objectivity, and I question its very existence.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fisherking
It is a bit interesting that you have such a great fear of such a tiny minority group. I rather doubt you know much about them. You and the FBI on the same side. LOL
"Fear" is the wrong word. I take an interest in all whackjob groups from Christian Identity to Eurabia to Sovereign citizens. As of now, my two current favourites are nazi christian fundamentalists going through all kinds of logical twists to explain away Jesus being a Jew, and the sovereign citizens. Mostly because of the holier-than-thou attitude they got from spending countless hours reading legal documents they don't understand a word of.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fisherking
Of course you seem to be on the conservative side of this argument while I am on the left.
Are you turning conservative on other issues as well? Where is your revolutionary zeal?
I like market capitalism. I also like the state wielding a great big club to thump the market capitalism whenever it gets out of control.
I'm also a reformer, not a revolutionary. The switch was made back in the 20's, get with the program.
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Re: Undefined and dangerous
Oh, and it turns out Ron Paul associates with crackpots.
I am not surprised.
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Re: Undefined and dangerous
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Originally Posted by
HoreTore
Not sure how it happens in Norway, but on this side of the pond, the Ron Pauls and others on the fringe do NOT get much in the way of power. What they get is the chance to voice their concerns and maybe....but only maybe....have one of their issues taken up by the more mainstream candidates.
Our fruit bat fringe, in this modern era of 24-hour unrelenting need something to grab their attention internet media electronic feeding frenzy, makes for interesting copy. This is true whether it is Ron Paul calling for a return to the Gold Standard or Westboro Baptist picketing soldier funerals or Miley Cyrus sticking her tongue to a wrecking ball or whatever. Circensus stuff that does nothing but throw chaff out.
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Re: Undefined and dangerous
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Seamus Fermanagh
Not sure how it happens in Norway, but on this side of the pond, the Ron Pauls and others on the fringe do NOT get much in the way of power.
Of course not. I'm not suggesting that they're going to wreck America anytime soon, only that they are hilarious and makes for excellent reading material whenever you need a chuckle.
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Re: Undefined and dangerous
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Originally Posted by
HoreTore
I like market capitalism. I also like the state wielding a great big club to thump the market capitalism whenever it gets out of control.
I'm also a reformer, not a revolutionary.
The trouble is that it is not market capitalism. The State Stick is very selective to whack only the competitors of the money providers. I call that out of control, by government and the interests behind them.
Government interference and monitoring is only there because they can. They have the technology. It is expensive and they are spending loads of money on it.
You don’t have to look very far to find that they are not only monitoring everyone but stealing plans and technologies from foreign firms and giving it to selected US firms. And these firms are not from enemies but supposed allies. Government spying to increase corporate profits.
It is blatantly illegal at every level yet government contends that it is justified. Turning the public into the enemy.
Officials won’t stop it because it means they lose campaign money.
That may be your dream state but few others would find that appealing.
Perhaps you find all of this too near conspiracy theory, but then again your knowledge of the US government is very limited and you don’t know the possible scope of abuse.
Reform is what is wanted and needed!
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Re: Undefined and dangerous
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Originally Posted by
Fisherking
Perhaps you find all of this too near conspiracy theory
Indeed I do, but....
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fisherking
but then again your knowledge of the US government is very limited and you don’t know the possible scope of abuse.
...this sentence tells me that further discussion is pointless.
Call me when you turn it into a full jew-fest.
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Re: Undefined and dangerous
HT you are as bad as what you seem to fear.
You see conspiracy theorists in every shadow.
I think you are turning into an anti-conspiracy theory nut job.
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Re: Undefined and dangerous
Most of the discussion revolves around the political environment/reform; I would say the failure lies with the justice system.
In each case illegalities and abuses are being allowed or ignored. Where is the check and balance the courts are supposed to provide?
If its over-reach the courts should reign it within the law and/or constitution; if its illegal the courts should call the gov't on it.
Unless you want to make the argument that the entire system (political and legal) is just a black-hole of corruption and special dealing; then indeed: America is exceptional...
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Re: Undefined and dangerous
Very true. Problem is those judges are appointed by people who want to keep it going and want that control.
Just to get them out there, a couple of links others found first:
http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/201...-internet/all/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vILAlhwUgIU#t=576
The second should be of special interest to HT because he thinks this is much to do about nothing and it is all just conspiracy theory.
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Re: Undefined and dangerous
