https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=APGnKRx67kI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cuO53xeZkm8#t
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I guess Illuminati is to blame for this as well, eh?
People in the first video came from middle age?
Ego usus catapultum, tribuo mihi totus vestri viaticus!Quote:
Originally Posted by PilaPis
Actually wanting to be in the ultra-undemocratic EU. That's rich. The EU is about eliminating the democratic nation-state and centralising power. Modern-day fascism really, socialism for the peasants, grants for the multinationals.
The Netherlands is about eliminating the democratic nation-state and centralising power. Modern-day fascism really, should be happy the EU are trying to save the Limburgers from the fascism of the Zeelanders and the Gelderlanders.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
Those protests where about signing the AA until about nov. 30 th, last year. This was when the government tried to disperse by blunt force (in the sense of boots and batons beating against students' heads).Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
Since then, it is about overthrowing Yanukovich and his gang of corrupt oligarchs. Corruption in Ukraine is outrageous on all levels.
I have been living there for one year, and I know why the Ukrainian people wants to live 'a European life'. It is not even about the tangible accomodities, it is about replacing the ever-present abuse of power and corruption by state officials with rule of law, something we Germans or Dutch probably take for granted.
Ukraine is a deeply divided nation in every sense of the word. One part wants stronger ties with Russia, the other stronger ties with EU/West.
It's gonna end badly either way, especially as the politicians on both sides are professional cleptocrats when it comes to domestic policies.
Well, all of Ukraine seems to agree that Ukrainians should have limited sovereignty over Ukraine. :tongue:
Ridicule is normal, so it's boring. I could make a list of what has been sneaked in, but it would depress me too much. Look up some video's of Nigel Farrage he is good at explaining things.Quote:
Originally Posted by Husar
I'd say it's more about the division within Ukraine itself, than it is about the east/west divide of Europe. This especially apparent if you examine the organizations present on both sides of the conflict. You will find groups with an ideology you would normally consider very anti-eu(various forms of nationalism) on the "pro-EU"-side.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarmatian
And of course, there's probably a considerable middle ground of people who are just sick and tired of corruption and just want to have a new corrupt leader to whine about.
And Nigel Farrage is full of rethoric without any substance. All emotion, no rationality. No wonder frag loves him.
Some things are wrong with the EU but Nigel Farage is a sarcastic fanatic who likes to listen to himself most likely.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
Maybe we could do the EU better if it weren't for all the nationalists and EU-skeptics who block every attempt that isn't dictated from above. You can't have a democracy when noone participates.
True leaders see that this is a self-defeating stance and have to force the union on the dumb masses, just like the USA were formed back in the day against the will of a lot of the population in the colonies. Do they regret it now? Some do on certain issues, until there is a war again and they cheer their grande armee that wouldn't be possible if they were all on their own. And they like to rub in how their huge nation has far more economic impact than any of the splintered EU countries etc. When Merkel complained about the NSA stuff they were like "yeah....well, no!", when the entire EU threatens to take steps against it they come along with concessions.
That people want to keep their own little nations in a world where only mega-corporations and mega-countries count is quite silly. If Europeans want to keep any sense of importance in the world, we have to unite. Else it is divide and conquer for the big countries.
Well drilled. Why compare it to the USA, the USA was build on a revolution. Europe isn't the USA, we share no common identity. On tops, the people are against European integration, only in Belgium and Germany do they find that desirable.
In addition to the first paragraph: Here is the "freedom" party's party program. Nothing I as a European identify with, especially all this ranting about 'offenses against the Ukrainian identity'. On the 'pro-Russian' side, we have the notable alliance of oligarkhs and communists, who currently rule.Quote:
Originally Posted by HoreTore
But it is not only 'a considerable middle ground' of the protestors who are fed up with blatant corruption and an abusive police force. It is the majority. One has to bear in mind, that the probably most important escalation of protests occured NOT, when Yanukovich declared not to sign the AA, but when Berkut units brutally tried to disperse a crowd of only several hundred protestors at 4 am, nov. 30th. It was after this, that half a million of Ukrainians took the streets of Kyiv and demanded change.
I have personal experience with the Ukrainian militia and I can say, people have every right to be fed up with them. They always treat people like c**p. http://khpg.org/en/index.php?id=1382468744
This is the website of a major Ukrainian human rights advocate group, guess what is their most busy section? Right, the one offering help to "victims of the militia". Just click around a little at their website and read some of that stuff up there which is not about the current events. All those "he fell down the stairs"-incidents, or even worse, rape by police officers as in this case.
Possibly. I'm not going to pretend that I know every little bit about various interest groups in Ukraine. The fact is that one significantly large part of population want stronger ties with EU, the other significantly large part wants stronger ties with Russia and apparently both feel that is either one or the other, which is probably correct.Quote:
Originally Posted by HoreTore
Looking on the corruption side of things, pro-Russian parties are guilty of that just as pro-EU are. When it comes to economy, 32% is foreign exchange with Russia, 31% exchange with the EU.
Basically, Ukraine is in a very bad position either way. I can't help but wonder if it would be better if Ukraine is divided, with eastern part joining Russia and western EU...
Corruption is rampant everywhere. In the west it's more concealed, there the lobbying and the making of laws that serve private interests is done more quietly, more to the side. In eastern Europe it's just taken to absurd levels. I can sympathize with the people but then again, behind such massive protests there is always a core of instigators. Ukraine is the biggest country within Russia's sphere of influence. If it is chipped away and taken down the road of EU integration then Russia becomes weaker.
That's the geopolitical side of it. Regarding the EU super government - yeah it's obvious that's the plan. USA has it, now the EU needs it. Later we can merge both to form a trans Atlantic nation. Where does it end? Until we have a Dictator of the Earthen Republic for life? I think there is no need to compare countries because right now we don't operate by Right of Conquest. So who cares if Europe is a few smaller countries and the USA and China are bigger ones? Inter country rivalry is old news. IMO it's about the quality of life of people around the globe and scientific progress for the whole of human kind. One can argue that both can be improved by more centralized power over larger swathes of land, but one can also argue the opposite. IMO nation states and the sense of belonging to a nation, country and culture are vital for human kind and should not be discarded because of artificially created disasters.
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAQuote:
8. Implement a criminal penalty for any displays of Ukrainophobia.
EDIT: Oh, and I see they come complete with GMO-hysteria. I'd be interested to know if any of them could name a single agricultural product not genetically modified by humans...
Let Putin have the whackos. Let's focus on roughing up Turkey and getting them on board instead.
EDIT2: It's taking me a while to get through GenosseGeneral's excellent linky(this is the "day of constant interuptions", apparently), but the following made me burst out laughing:
I fear for the future of Ukraine if these guys ever get a say in politics. What a bunch of idiots.Quote:
8. Cultivate the best traditions of Ukrainian pedagogy. Discontinue the practice of mechanical copying of foreign models, including the Bologna Process.
I would disagree on a nuance there.
It's not that corruption is more hidden in the West, it's that it has been renamed to lobbying and in some countries it has even been turned into something that people are supposed to see as a positive thing and that is sanctioned by constitutional courts.
Corruption is a negative, illegal thing, lobbying is an awesome way for the most vauable entities in society to improve said society for themselves by paying marginal sums for huge benefits that create a win-win situation for a few individuals. Corruption is really totally different.
It's been interesting reading about the background to all of this, especially how national identity works in Ukraine. Because the current conflict is about whether Ukraine belongs in the European (aka liberal democratic) world, or the Russian (aka Soviet power bloc) world, the national identity issue is all tied up in whether Ukrainians are really Russians, or something distinct from them. Historically, the two identities have been constantly alternating as the dominant norm - usually because the historic realities become muddled amidst changing relations with the Russian nation.
In terms of historic realities, Ukraine was of course part of the Rus (Russian) heartland a millennia ago - the Kievan Rus etc. This fact has been used both to place Ukraine within the Russian world, and on the other hand to emphasise ancient Ukrainian sovereignty. Besides these Rus roots, it has been hugely affected by migrations since then with the Tatars and Cossack hosts etc, giving a historic ground for a sense of cultural distinction from Russia. Romanticist literature about the Cossacks and their struggles against the Poles etc seems to have been the origins of a specifically Ukrainian nationalism, replacing more general pan-Slavism.
Then you have the impact of Russian relations and their affect on a desire for either solidarity or distinction from the Russians. While under Imperial Russia, the elite was strictly Russified, meaning that Ukrainian nationalism was something for the peasantry and lacked any intellectual roots. Ironically, the Bolsheviks fostered Ukrainian nationalism, and it was during this period of 'Ukrainianization' that the Ukrainian identity really became embraced by the whole country. The reasons for the Bolsheviks doing this were to weaken the old institutions of Imperialist Russia - for example weakening the Russian Orthodox Church by separating off a specifically Ukrainian one, and such moves for the first time helped create Ukrainian civic institutions.
However, Stalin then reversed all of this, taking the view that closer cultural ties would cement Ukraine within Russia's influence. So Russification began again, as Ukrainian civic institutions were attacked, and settlements of Russian-speakers began in the east of the country. This seems to have created a lasting legacy with today's more Russified east.
There is a deep history behind what is going on, even if the current conflict is over very contemporary issues. I would also note that while we might regard the protestors as the 'good guys', the pro-Euro/Ukrainian-identifying parties have a history of quite repressive measures against Russian-speakers, and they also have some extreme elements in their ranks (I've noticed many swastikas in the riot pictures).
Russia is baking its own cake too. They saw this coming, hence the desire to do South Stream ASAP. The previous Bulgarian goverment had frozen the project on the behalf of the US ambassador. Not officially of course, but we know they played to his fiddle. Then last year in January we had a masterfully engineered wave of protests that culminated with the abdication of that goverment. The new one is comprised of people who have ties with Russia, who were educated/trained there and who do business with the Russian oligarchs.
As you can guess, South Stream construction was renewed and it is now going on full tilt. Once it is completed, Russia will no longer be dependent on Ukranian benevolence to sell its natural gas to the western countries. It will also mean that the Ukranian government and whomever is controlling it will have lost their tool to influence Russia and keep it in check.
Of course, if our pro-American buddies come back in power here they will once again freeze the construction of South Stream and then Ukraine will become a lot more important to Russian interest and a great deal of money and operatives will be assigned to do some counter revolution...
It's almost as though the world ain't black and white.
Why don't they give Yanukovich and Klitschko some gloves and let them fight over which side wins?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U1iAYyzxxzg
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
Yes, Bulgarian cleptocrats are gonna decide about importance of Ukraine on the global stage or whether the South Stream gets built. Delusions of grandeur, what a beautiful thing...Quote:
Originally Posted by Myth
Of course they don't. They are bootlickers but they know how to follow orders and hide behind someone else's back. You think that the recent resuming of construction was a coincidence?
BTW I went to Nis last weekend and I can say I really liked it. Especially the Serbian girls who wore waist long dark hair mostly (I enjoy long hair on girls and these Skrillex skulls I see around really put me off)
edit: as weak and corrupt as they are, they do technically have the right to say what goes through our territory. They hide behind slow approval of plans and adding re-evaluation of gis measurements and a bunch of other stuff, but in the end, they CAN stall it or halt it indefinitely if they want to. Just because we're small doesn't mean we can't tell someone else to not build on our turf. The pipeline itself DOES decide the importance of Urkaine as currently the only route for Russian gas to Europe. Or do you disagree with that?
1) There were details to iron out between Russia and EU. The problem was that the deal was made between states independently, ignoring EU completely. It was solved rather quick and the construction resumed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Myth
2) There are 2.5 serious players in the entire North/South Stream thingy. One is Russia, other is Germany and I count Italy as half of one. The rest of us are just along for the ride and we should be thanking our lucky stars that the pipeline will give cheaper and more reliable gas, gas storages, investments, transit fees and jobs. If by a chance some local cleptocrat tries to mess with that, he would be given a choice, taking independence and sovereignty into account, of being spanked by German, Russian or Italian paddle.
3) There's much more to Ukraine than being just gas transit.
I agree with you, but the thing is, the local cleptocrats are sometimes serving Washingon's interests. The previous US ambassador here made it very clear what these interests hold. Give Chevron leave to drill for Shale Gas in Bulgaria. Allow the planting of GM crops. Bog down South Stream if possible.
Putin came here in 2010. The money were given and the companies to do the preliminary report were chosen in 2011. But our Eco commission gave the go ahead in 2013, after the government changed with much turmoil. The section on Bulgarian soil will cost 3.5 billion, which is 50% of the cost of the entire pipe which goes over land, because the distribution terminal will also be constructed here. There are other factors which slowed it down of course, our government was just playing along.
Back to Ukraine - it sure is more than a territory for a gas line. It is yet another test of influence. As usual, it's the common folk who will once again suffer no matter the outcome.
Ukrainian nationalism is indeed a funny thing. It is a mixture built somewhere around the Kievan Rus, a romantic view on the Cossacks, traditional clothing (the Vyshyvanka; every proper Ukrainian nationalist owns one) and the poets Taras Shevtchenko and Ivan Franko. Oh and don't forget about the language issue, Russian vs. Ukrainian. Noone really knows, which language is actually the majority's language, most ukrainians understand both or speak a mixture. Yet hardcore nationalists will refuse to say any Russian word and it can be quite risky to use Russian in the more nationalist regions of the West.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhyfelwyr
Oh and yes, there is a good deal of antisemitism and racism present in the Ukranian nationalist movement. "Death to all jids![sic]" or "Death to all hadshis [derogatory slang for people from the islamic former memberstates of the USSR]" are common slogans. They also admire the Nazis for fighting communism, as their forebearers of the UPA had some sort of alliance with the Nazis for some time, probably due to their mutual hatred towards Polish, Jews and Communists.
In fact, these radical elements are possibly one of the main reasons, the opposition gets so little suppport in Eastern Ukraine. WWII is still remembered rather vividly and the term 'fascists' is easy to apply on these radicals, thus making it easy for the government to evoke fear of "these fascists from the West".
Again then, no good guys and plenty of bad guys? I also feel sorry for the police officer who got a molotov thrown on his face. They may be corrupt (ok, I'm not exempting the rapists and such) but setting a person on fire for doing his job is lunacy. Especially since they're not even using gas and rubber bullets. If your guys are being set on fire either pull them back or give them leave to do something other than observe and count flaming bottles in the sky above.
Of course, if lethal force is authorised then this gives leave for anyone with enough media ties to label the Ukranian regime as anti-humane and to get foreign intervention there. So I guess that's why the police just sits there while being roasted alive.
I would rather have Ukraine join the West than stick with Russia obviously. Someone said that corruption is everywhere in the West as well, it is just better hidden. Well, maybe Ukrainians at least want a government culture where they have to hide their corruption. Paying lip service to an ideal is one step closer to that ideal than simply letting politicians be brazen with their misdeeds.
Well, they answered it with rubber bullets, stun and tear gas grenades. Some officers reportedly threw back stones and molotovs as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Myth
And yes, there is corruption in the West as well. But it is not half as blatant as in Ukraine, where the state apparatus and government funds primatily cater the needs of the Oligarchs. There are numerous examples, for instance the newly introduced subsidies for green energy or the way anti-monopoly laws are used to push competitors out of the market in order to create - a monopoly. Yes there is corruption in the West - but in terms of scale, comparing the two means equalling camp X-Ray with Dachau concentration camp.
This text went viral in Ukraine in its Russian/Ukrainian version and sums up the majority of protestors' motivation, as far as I am informed through media as well as personal contacts.
The video of the guy driving to work in your link reminded me of OJ riding around L.A. after his wife died. OJ is also Russian mafia?
That text is typical propaganda piece trying to portray "Russia or EU" choice, which is the crux, as "mafia or democracy/freedom" choice. Unfortunately, pro-EU current in Ukraine is just as corrupt as pro-Russian is.Quote:
Originally Posted by GenosseGeneral
The naivety is also amusing. I like how the writer said:
It doesn't work that way. No one is going to do your work for you. You have to deal with it. Ask your Bulgarian neighbours. They still have rampant corruption even though they've been EU members for 7 years.Quote:
For us, the agreement with the EU was a sign of change of the criminal system
Sounds rather like the USA with more openness.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarmatian
But the nation-state, country, etc are indeed artificially created disasters in themselves...Quote:
Originally Posted by Myth
So you are saying "No eggs in my omelette!" but you cannot make an omelette without having eggs. No eggs means no omelette.
:mellow:Quote:
No eggs means no omelette.
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
I've seen ballista's being build and testudo formations. Are we sure we're correctly translating all this. It almost looks like re-enactment.
Either way it seems the Ukrainian education hasn't failed when it comes to classical history.:rtwyes:
It's probably what they consider nonviolent clashes in Ukraine.Quote:
Originally Posted by Moros
Sarmatian is right. The coming of the EU SHOULD have fixed things, but it didn't.
Bulgaria was ruined with a masterfully executed plan. The same communists from the ruling party divided the spoils right before toppling the regime from under Zhivkov's feet. They did a coup with the blessings of Moscow and then got to work. All the major industrial complexes were strangled - private mafia companies taking over the importation of raw materials and the selling of finished goods, essentially ensuring the factory works at a loss.
Several years later we have privatisation as one of the prerequisites for joining the EU. They sell industrial mastodonts like Neftochim Burgas (oil refinery) for a miserable $130 million to the Russian oligarchs. They sell MDK Pridop (precious metals plant) for $50 million while inside the storage facilities there was around $60 million in already smelted metals.
The prosperous factories remained private, the rest were bankrupted on purpose, the machines sold for scrap and so on. More corruption than ever, especially considering the lucrative spots on the black sea coast (tourist traps etc.) When the EU came with it's EU commission and regulation on EU funds our guys just changed the model and started figuring out how to steal EU funds. Like setting up puppet companies which "win tenders" for infrastructure, renovation and other such projects. Millions if not billions stolen. So yeah, the EU isn't a magical fairy god mother of proper morale or justice. Our justice system is so corrupt you'd have to be a moron or really really poor to be in prison.
Oh, and that's a trebuchet, not a ballista
I've seen two catapults one looked like a ballista (of course not a real one) and one like well nothing really historical. But I'd be very surprised if they'd pull a trebuchet of. Now there might be even more and bigger ones out there, but a trebuchet that's quite a difficult one to pull of.Quote:
Originally Posted by Myth
Check out the first video in the op. It looks like a mini trebuchet to me.
It is. I saw it too. Likely a traction trebuchet. No weights just people pulling to provide the force.
President just stepped down.
No, the prime minister did.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
Patsy sacrificed, rats leaving the ship, or what?
My badQuote:
Originally Posted by HoreTore
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fisherking
Ah yes that one. Yeah didn't wanted to call it a trebuchet. You're right that it is somewhat a like to a traction trebuchet. But then again I used the term ballista for a primitive but similar looking contraption as well. So I guess you could call it a trebuchet. Anyway I've got the feeling we might not be talking about the most relevant aspects of these protests.Quote:
Originally Posted by Myth
Also I'm quite surprised the video of the protesters taking over the ministry hasn't been posted? Or was it deemed a tad too aggressive?
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
I must say I've never seen anything like it in my short lifetime when it comes to riots.
You just don't mess with Russians/Ukrainians. :shrug:
While I may feel a little sorry for the police officers getting hit with all kinds of things and having their toys taken away, some may deserve it but they're not using any lethal force and that's commendable, especially compared to other countries with riots.
I just hope the protesters show the same restraint when the policemen give up, in the video it seems to be the case.
In the long run Ukraine is probably better off without Russia unless Russia undergoes some serious changes.
Russia will play hard ball. They didn't give in for Syria, they sure as hell ain't giving in when it comes to Ukraine.
It's not their fight though. Ukraine's choice is up to the Ukrainians, not Russia, the EU, or anyone else for that matter.
Pfft. What the masses want is up to who has manipulated them better.
Well yeah, and that's where Russia is laying out all her trump cards. The 15 billion dollar loan was a brilliant move. It didn't end the protests, but it was a stunningly powerful statement.
It is worthy to mention that they don't seem to listen to nor really stand behind any of the supposition party leaders anymore. Even Klytschko is getting less willing ears. So it seems some leaders within the protesters might soon get some spotlight. Though one can argue how organised they are. And sometimes it seems they very much are and at others it seems like non at all. Or perhaps Tymoshenko will be the one to profit. She can't do any wrong because of being locked up and most protesters seem to be pro releasing her, they even demand her release.Quote:
Originally Posted by Myth
Releasing her might go a long way towards defusing the situation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Moros
there is movement in the government.
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/01/29/wo...f=ukraine&_r=0
I heard it earlier today...
https://s21.postimg.org/xcj4dg3ev/uk...0_election.jpg
This is the problem in Ukraine. A very clear division between pro EU and pro Russian parts of the country. If the government in Kiev is toppled, the eastern regions are already saying the won't acknowledge the new government.
If the divide is as clear cut as that, splitting the country into two wouldn't be a bad option. Unfortunately, I doubt it would be as simply as that in the slightest.
Apparently the prime minister has resigned, thus engendering a complete change of government. Calls continue for the President to resign as well.
Yes but since a few day riots have spread and protesters were rather active in trying and achieving/failing in taking the local goverment buildings in many eastern provinces as well. So I'm not sure this might be the case. I think with the economical problems of late combined with frustrations of certain elements, plus a more common feeling that the president went to far with his anti protest laws, are I think more wide spread than we might reckon. However once protests are done and more longterm plans are to be made, I guess division will again be the very much the case.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarmatian
It is not a ministry they storm, but an Oblast (=administrational district) administration building in Western Ukraine.Quote:
Originally Posted by Moros
The level of aggressiveness is extremely high on both sides, just look up a couple of videos, e.g. from Nov. 30th (first attempted crackdown on the Maidan) or the one taking from the special police's point of view, which shows how officers are set ablaze by molotov cocktails. The Berkut units are feared for a reason, namely beating and kicking people already lying on the ground, but just recently major hooligan groups declared "to support the protests and protect them from the police".
The Video shows quite some violence, be warned
(I hope it is ok to link it, as we are in the backroom)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9U5Qmv9gg8w
Video is from Dec. 1, taken at Bankova str., Kyiv.
I definitely agree with this. One also has to noticed, that the attacks on local administration buildings actually STRENGTHENED support for Yanukovich, at least in the East, where people now rant against the spreading of anarchy and some demand "to end this uprising in a bloodbath". In Donetsk and Kharkiv at least, groups of vigilantes have formed/where hired (it is hard to say), who want "to defend their cities against anarchy".Quote:
Originally Posted by Moros
I found this article through an Ukrainian friend of mine, and I think it gives some more insight into the lines along which the country is split.
Though I have my doubts, whether it is really geographically that clear; it is also a question of generations. Younger and better educated people are far more likely to have a 'Western European' mindset. Or take Jews: Not only that there is widespread anti-semitism amongst nationalists, the Jewish minority speaks mostly Russian, also in Western Ukraine.
Seems like the political crisis is now joined by an economical one, as the national currency Hryvnia has seen a steep fall over the last weeks and tuesday there was reported a big run on banks throughout the country, as Ukraniains tried buy as many Dollars and Euros as they could, leading to shortages and limitations in some places. Ukrainians have made traumatic experiences with hyperinflation during the 2008 crisis and even worse, in the 1990ies. And if you look at this chart, their experience might repeat.
However, there seems to be some movement in the Verkhovna Rade (=Parliament) to make changes to the constitution in order to weaken the president's position. It is not clear yet, whether these attempts will be successful, but a change of the constitution could take away enough of peoples' fears of "the Belorussian way" so that they can wait until the2015 elections to get rid of Yanukovich.
.....And these are the guys accused of playing the entire world like a puppet, toppling regimes at will....
Yeah, right.
Not entire world, just a significant part and not playing and toppling but trying. Just because one does something, it doesn't mean one's automatically good at it. Case in point, Norwegians and football.Quote:
Originally Posted by HoreTore
Even in this very thread we have seen posts hinting that the resolution of the Ukraine crisis will be decided by these people. Not try to decide, but decide.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarmatian
Who's trying?Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarmatian
The EU will act fast once the US congress passes a budget that lasts longer than a few months and isn't a few weeks late. :laugh4:
It's like Bob calling Cindy blue.
Open battles on streets in Kyiv
That article does not fully cover it, but it gives you an idea what is going on there. And it seems to be not limited to one point (like it was on Jan. 20 and the follwoing days).
Reports include fatally wounded protestors, MVD troopers taken in captive and the speaker/head of parliament/president of parliament Rybak has suffered a breakdown. The Parliament building is evacuated.
This all rapidly since this morning, in about 9 am local time, a group of protestors tried to march to parliament to force it to formally introduce a law about returning to the constitution of 2004. This return was debated as a means to solve the crisis politically by limiting the president's power; however, the government did everything to delay the vote in parliament.
EDIT: The president is conferring with closest counsellors. We might see the declaration of martial law within the next hours. This would drown the protests in a bloodpath.
EDIT2: So far 3 protestors dead, 7 close to death, 300 wounded, medical personal from the opposition's main first aid-point say.
Must say I don't believe this http://edition.cnn.com/2014/02/20/wo...sts/index.html
As far as I know 20 dead comfirmed, don't know if that is true either.
BBC reports 21 however as with any "live" news that number is subject to change
Quite a bit, official number is now 64. This is getting even uglier, almost 70 police-officers have been taken hostage and something is comming up to release them. Screw it all, I am going to smoke a nice one and have a whiskey without a care in the world. FMW.
Wow, that was a fast escalation. I thought they had reached an agreement and that was the end of it. If government snipers are at work that is pretty scary. Equally the protestors look far from peaceful. I won't pass judgement I'll leave that to those who know the situation better.
So what are the bets on this? Like Egypt or like Syria?
EU travel and import/export bans: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26280710Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhyfelwyr
So - Ukraine is rapidly going the way of Egypt, it appears.
The likelihood of Russian troops entering to "restore order" is approaching "1".
At this point it's a race - the EU has a small window left to calm the situation before Putin sends in the tanks to oust the current government and install and actual puppet.
Meanwhile, Poland, Romania and Bulgaria are extremely glad they agreed to the join the EU already.
Sanctions on import of repression tools (whatever that is) and travel bans for 20 people. In other words, nothing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla
If it continues, I see a breakup of the country, which is probably the best solution anyway. If the opposition gets what it wants, we're gonna have the exact same drama, just with reversed roles.Quote:
So - Ukraine is rapidly going the way of Egypt, it appears.
The likelihood of Russian troops entering to "restore order" is approaching "1".
At this point it's a race - the EU has a small window left to calm the situation before Putin sends in the tanks to oust the current government and install and actual puppet.
Meanwhile, Poland, Romania and Bulgaria are extremely glad they agreed to the join the EU already.
I already envisage EU and US officials stating how the protesters are getting violent, trying to overthrow democratically elected government and how that government must be supported against armed rebels and terrorists. All the major news media will start focusing on how well armed the rebels are and how many police officers were injured in violent attacks. It's gonna be hillarous.
Nono, the Western Governments will fund the rebels, then the Government sponsered by Russia will use chemical weapons. Then there is a big hoo-haa about how the weapons given by western governments will go into the hands of terrorists and Al-Qaeda...Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarmatian
Wait.. isn't similar a different conflict?
A breakup of the country is unlikely as neither the EU or Russia will support that, it allows for the breakup of other countries in Europe which make the political situation too "flexible."Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarmatian
Whilst I appreciate your cynicism, and you're right to by cynical, it's also not true that a pro-EU government would end up the same as the current one. For two reasons:
1. The EU cannot be seen to support an internally repressive regime on it's own doorstep - they can't even get away with that in Africa now, let alone Ukraine. It simply isn't practical politics, and any government looking for EU backing for these sorts of policies won't get it.
2. Remember, violent demonstrations started when the Ukraine re-oriented itself towards Russia and the president basically admitted this was because the Russians offered them more money. I don't think this is about EU vs Russia so much as the idea that Russia can (or cannot) but Ukrainian loyalty.
Hmm, so people want to turn Ukraine into another proxy war in the great Free West v Authoritarian East conflict? I would also be wary of arming Ukrainian rebels, they might not be influenced by ISIS but they don't exactly have a spotless history themselves.
Still I can't see things reaching the stage of Egypt, far less Syria. We have plenty of precedents for bloodless revolutions in recent Eastern European history.
Danger zone!Quote:
Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube
The main part of anti-Russianism in Ukraine goes back to Stalin when he oppressed the entire Soviet Union with his extreme collectivism policy that was the cause for a nation-wide famine. Ukraine was the main sufferer of that policy. There was also Stalin's Great Purge in the Soviet Union. It was in fact Khrushchev who first condemned Stalin's purging policies in Khrushchev's Secret Speech to the Congress of the Communist Party (although Khrushchev originally supported Stalin during the Great Purge). You can find his speech on youtube. Many people misunderstand the old photos of Ukrainians cheering for German invaders during WWII. The Ukrainians had suffered under Stalin's policies before WWII, so they considered the Germans as liberators. There were actually a lot of Ukrainians who remained loyal to the Soviet Union. After experiencing German occupation, more Ukrainians joined the Soviet Union side in large numbers.
Depends on the situation, in my opinion. Russia needs Ukraine. Europe doesn't really need Ukraine, but doesn't want Russia to have it. Russia has a slightly better position. So, unless EU backs down, I see Russia calling their bets until the very end. The very end being the breakup of Ukraine.Quote:
Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla
1). Of course it can not. That's why such a government will a priori be declared democratic, with the interest of the people at heart, wanting to lead them to freedom and democracy and the protesters will automatically become either rebels and terrorists.Quote:
Whilst I appreciate your cynicism, and you're right to by cynical, it's also not true that a pro-EU government would end up the same as the current one. For two reasons:
1. The EU cannot be seen to support an internally repressive regime on it's own doorstep - they can't even get away with that in Africa now, let alone Ukraine. It simply isn't practical politics, and any government looking for EU backing for these sorts of policies won't get it.
2. Remember, violent demonstrations started when the Ukraine re-oriented itself towards Russia and the president basically admitted this was because the Russians offered them more money. I don't think this is about EU vs Russia so much as the idea that Russia can (or cannot) but Ukrainian loyalty.
Just like in Kosovo - government there was and is democratic. Human trafficking, drugs, murders, violence, destruction, ethnic cleansing, rampant corruption and an occasional kidney being sold under the counter can't change that.
2). That's what the west's been doing that all over the world for a very long time. Even before this mess, Ukraine was on verge of bankruptcy. What kept the economy from collapsing and people from freezing was Russian energy which they were getting for an extremely privileged price.
I fail to see how Russia has a "better position" - in fact: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26284505Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarmatian
Russia stands more to lose, and are therefore Russia may send tanks.
Such a government will lose said backing if it demonstrates it's can't resist killing protesters - doesn't play well in France or Germany when the EU is seen to back such people. As to Kosovo - it has been censured several times, but the West recognises self-determination and if Kosovo is a mess it's the fault of Serbia.Quote:
1). Of course it can not. That's why such a government will a priori be declared democratic, with the interest of the people at heart, wanting to lead them to freedom and democracy and the protesters will automatically become either rebels and terrorists.
Just like in Kosovo - government there was and is democratic. Human trafficking, drugs, murders, violence, destruction, ethnic cleansing, rampant corruption and an occasional kidney being sold under the counter can't change that.
The Arab spring showed the foolishness of the West backing dictators, and it is no longer palatable domestically. These days you need to be at least moderately democratic to get Western backing.Quote:
2). That's what the west's been doing that all over the world for a very long time. Even before this mess, Ukraine was on verge of bankruptcy. What kept the economy from collapsing and people from freezing was Russian energy which they were getting for an extremely privileged price.
I've been browsing a few fascist forums lately - and they claim to have chased out "lefties" from Madian... I'm guessing "left" means anyone supporting democracy, whether conservative, liberal or socialist.
Fortunately, fascist forums are of course notoriously unreliable and I don't trust them for a second. Still, it's certainly worrisome if the protest movement now consists of skinheads wanting independence(isolation) and a strong Führer in charge...