Segregation Returns to US Schools

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WASHINGTON (AP) — Segregation is making a comeback in U.S. schools.

Progress toward integrated classrooms has largely been rolled back since the Supreme Court issued its landmark Brown v. Topeka Board of Education decision 60 years ago, according to a report released Thursday by the Civil Rights Project at UCLA. Blacks are now seeing more school segregation than they have in decades, and more than half of Latino students are now attending schools that are majority Latino.

In New York, California and Texas, more than half of Latino students are enrolled in schools that are 90 percent minority or more, the report found. In New York, Illinois, Maryland and Michigan, more than half of black students attend schools where 90 percent or more are minority.

Project co-director Gary Orfield, author of the "Brown at 60" report, said the changes are troubling because they show some minority students receive poorer educations than white students and Asian students, who tend to be in middle-class schools. The report urged, among other things, deeper research into housing segregation, which is a "fundamental cause of separate-and-unequal schooling."

Although segregation is more prevalent in central cities of the largest metropolitan areas, it's also in the suburbs. "Neighborhood schools, when we go back to them, as we have, produce middle-class schools for whites and Asians and segregated high-poverty schools for blacks and Latinos," Orfield said.

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And so another pillar of LBJ's great society has fallen, dragging down countless neighborhoods and communities with it. Busing destroyed America's most prosperous cities, and was the overarching driver of the suburban flight that has caused innumerable issues including sprawl, inner city poverty, drug use, and violence, failing infrastructure, political dysfunction, increased reliance on cars and all of the associated costs, resource exhaustion, and the clusterfuck that is modern urban planning (see: Atlanta). And all for nothing...

Forced desegregation was one of the clearest examples of social engineering in US history, and most certainly the biggest failure. Ending legally enforced segregation was the correct decision, but forcing racial intermixing by removing children from their neighborhoods and busing them across entire metro areas was overreach in the extreme.

And now there are calls to 'fix' the current situation, most assuredly through another pillar of LBJ's house of cards: affirmative action. What the political Left refuses to acknowledge is that the passive racism that whites and Asians practice through self segregation is far more linked to culture than color. The cultural attitudes towards the importance of education in the Black and Latino communities simply place a different value on education, which is proven out in school performance. That certainly does not mean that all black and Latino families place less emphasis on education or that all white and Asian families push their children to excel academically and instill the value of education in them, but ignoring cultural norms is folly, as the article above highlights.

The unfortunate truth is that wherever black and Latino children are placed, white and Asian families with the means will leave, either physically or simply opt out of public education. It's easy to decry the horrors of white flight, but it is much more difficult to accept that such flight says just as much about those being left. Until educational attainment is truly valued in these minority communities, further social engineering will yield the same costly results.

Busing caused suburban sprawl? That's quite a leap...

Here it's silent. There are black and white schools, everybody knows that. No greater headache for a byciclemom than her offspring failing to get accepted at the gymnasium, which is whiter than a meeting of the KKK. There is always the mandatory minority of course.

I don't have the insight to comment on Panzer's arguments, but I do wonder what things would have been like if the government hadn't pushed through it's busing/forced mixing policy. Maybe attitudes towards racism would not have changed so drastically as they have since the Jim Crow days? Maybe things would never had moved on to the extent that people would elect a black/mixed-race president?

On the other hand, maybe if black people had retained their integrity as a community, they would have been less susceptible to the gang culture and social breakdown they are experiencing?

TL;DR socioeconomic factors impact school achievement.

Thank you for this brand new information.

Oh for :daisy:'s sake kadagar.

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

TL;DR socioeconomic factors impact school achievement.

Thank you for this brand new information.

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Why the dismissive tone? This is a big story, at least in the US. Busing and forced racial mixing caused significant social strife, and it was one of the largest and most intrusive social policies ever implemented in the states. On a forum where a Donald Sterling thread has three pages of results, I think its failure merits some discussion.

In any event, growing evidence suggests that the economic portion of the trite and poorly supported socioeconomic explanation for the achievement gap is more of an excuse than reality.

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An achievement gap separating black from white students has long been documented — a social divide extremely vexing to policy makers and the target of one blast of school reform after another.

But a new report focusing on black males suggests that the picture is even bleaker than generally known.

Only 12 percent of black fourth-grade boys are proficient in reading, compared with 38 percent of white boys, and only 12 percent of black eighth-grade boys are proficient in math, compared with 44 percent of white boys.

Poverty alone does not seem to explain the differences: poor white boys do just as well as African-American boys who do not live in poverty, measured by whether they qualify for subsidized school lunches.

The data was distilled from highly respected national math and reading tests, known as the National Assessment for Educational Progress, which are given to students in fourth and eighth grades, most recently in 2009. The report, “A Call for Change,” is to be released Tuesday by the Council of the Great City Schools, an advocacy group for urban public schools.

Although the outlines of the problem and many specifics have been previously reported, the group hopes that including so much of what it calls “jaw-dropping data” in one place will spark a new sense of national urgency.

“What this clearly shows is that black males who are not eligible for free and reduced-price lunch are doing no better than white males who are poor,” said Michael Casserly, executive director of the council.

The report shows that black boys on average fall behind from their earliest years. Black mothers have a higher infant mortality rate and black children are twice as likely as whites to live in a home where no parent has a job. In high school, African-American boys drop out at nearly twice the rate of white boys, and their SAT critical reasoning scores are on average 104 points lower.

The analysis of results on the national tests found that math scores in 2009 for black boys were not much different than those for black girls in Grades 4 and 8, but black boys lagged behind Hispanics of both sexes, and they fell behind white boys by at least 30 points, a gap sometimes interpreted as three academic grades.

The search for explanations has recently looked at causes besides poverty, and this report may further spur those efforts.

“There’s accumulating evidence that there are racial differences in what kids experience before the first day of kindergarten,” said Ronald Ferguson, director of the Achievement Gap Initiative at Harvard. “They have to do with a lot of sociological and historical forces. In order to address those, we have to be able to have conversations that people are unwilling to have.”

Those include “conversations about early childhood parenting practices,” Dr. Ferguson said. “The activities that parents conduct with their 2-, 3- and 4-year-olds. How much we talk to them, the ways we talk to them, the ways we enforce discipline, the ways we encourage them to think and develop a sense of autonomy.”

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It's difficult to admit black culture as the only determinant in lower educational quality and attainment when black students are routinely disregarded, under-supported, and singled out for disproportional disciplinary measures, not to mention the overall lower quality of the schools they attend. Such factors must be given a large role in explaining why economic status does not fully account for inadequate performance. In short, both black parenting and white mistreatment and misallocation must be taken into account when assessing the forces behind black demoralization and under-representation in education.

Substituting one monocausal account for another should always be taken with suspicion, especially when burdens are shifted wholesale onto underprivileged groups. I'm all for admitting complexity into evaluation of political and social "victims", but I know when I smell a rat.

Factor Analysis of Population Allele Frequencies as a Simple, Novel Method of Detecting Signals of Recent Polygenic Selection: The Example of Educational Attainment and IQ. : Article : IBC

This rather recent study look purely on the DNA-keys that are shared by prospering students.

It then shows in what race groups these keyes can be found.

The results goes hand in hand with other studies.


I'm sure there are socio/socioeconomical factors at play here, as well. But facts are that even when you remove all socioeconomical factors, some race groups still tend to to well / not so well when it comes to intelligence.

Can I assume you are "black" then? Because your "link" isn't a link. ~;p

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Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV

Factor Analysis of Population Allele Frequencies as a Simple, Novel Method of Detecting Signals of Recent Polygenic Selection: The Example of Educational Attainment and IQ. : Article : IBC

This rather recent study look purely on the DNA-keys that are shared by prospering students.

It then shows in what race groups these keyes can be found.

The results goes hand in hand with other studies.


I'm sure there are socio/socioeconomical factors at play here, as well. But facts are that even when you remove all socioeconomical factors, some race groups still tend to to well / not so well when it comes to intelligence.

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Look at the IQ-world map, I am not dismissing but want to add, in Suriname which is a mostly black colony the IQ levels are better than they are in most European countries. A lot of effort was put into there to build it up and it worked. I also believe that there are differnces between races, but there also valid argumensts for social-economic arguments, arguments that simply can't be simply ignored.

Surprise, surprise: you cannot remove all socioeconomical factors. I understand that why there might be some disposition towards something, the actual differences are so marginal that it doesn't even remotely comes close to having a serious effect on the IQ of a person.

There are so many factors that come into play, that just shoving a map under someone's face and say "well everything is clear now" just doesn't work.

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Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube

..., what some consider black problems will be everyone's problems.

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Upside, The Adventues of Hucklebrry Finn might finally get a fair reading.

As always it comes down an imbalance of infrastructure and self sustainability. There is plenty of blame on all sides there.

But what is there to expect, when even whites from lower incomes are getting pushed down by conservatives who believe that expensive charter schools for the rich will save the dysfunctional public school system.

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Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV

Factor Analysis of Population Allele Frequencies as a Simple, Novel Method of Detecting Signals of Recent Polygenic Selection: The Example of Educational Attainment and IQ. : Article : IBC

This rather recent study look purely on the DNA-keys that are shared by prospering students.

It then shows in what race groups these keyes can be found.

The results goes hand in hand with other studies.


I'm sure there are socio/socioeconomical factors at play here, as well. But facts are that even when you remove all socioeconomical factors, some race groups still tend to to well / not so well when it comes to intelligence.

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Originally Posted by Hax

Surprise, surprise: you cannot remove all socioeconomical factors. I understand that why there might be some disposition towards something, the actual differences are so marginal that it doesn't even remotely comes close to having a serious effect on the IQ of a person.

There are so many factors that come into play, that just shoving a map under someone's face and say "well everything is clear now" just doesn't work.

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I think you're both overplaying your hands, personally. You can breed for stupidity in dogs, there's no reason you can't do that with people. Conversely, there's no reason that Africans should be worse at problem solving than Eurasians, looking at historical African cultures, there's plenty of evidence that they can build highly developed, literate, societies.

For one thing, Sub-Saharan Africans created a number of early civilisations, and even within recorded history you have cultures like the Christians Kingdoms in Ethiopia.

However, all modern education of "black" people occurs within a "Westernised" context, which means all Black education is imposed from the outside in some way, even if that is now a historical peculiarity (as in South Africa).

What Kadagar's study tell us is that it isn't American policy, specifically, that is to blame. This suggests that a change in American policy will be unlikely to help.

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What Kadagar's study tell us is that it isn't American policy, specifically, that is to blame. This suggests that a change in American policy will be unlikely to help.

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Er, I suspect this study can only be found on an open-access source for a good reason. For a similar reason, it has only been cited elsewhere by overtly-racist blogs and forums (i.e. the "haha them niggers are stupid" kind).

I recommend this book to Kad.

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Originally Posted by Hax

Surprise, surprise: you cannot remove all socioeconomical factors. I understand that why there might be some disposition towards something, the actual differences are so marginal that it doesn't even remotely comes close to having a serious effect on the IQ of a person.

There are so many factors that come into play, that just shoving a map under someone's face and say "well everything is clear now" just doesn't work.

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No denial there, but there can't also be denied that by western standards Marrocan youth who were born an bred here are basicly retarded, the difference in IQ-levels between native Dutch and North-Africans is huge. The average native Dutch has an IQ of 107, the average north-african has an IQ of 78. That could be atributed to not knowing the language very well, but an IQ test is mostly maths, and the scores are dramaticaly bad. It wouldn't be a lie to say that most are retarded. Forgive me for puting it that way, I am not out for getting as much infaction-points as possible, but you know it's true. That never argues against social-economic factors, as they are from poor regions and it would probably take hundreds of years of development to take into the equation to claim it's racial, but it IS where we are right now. They have had three generations to improve by now, but they are still way behind in just about everything.

Edit, needs adition. Take the Chinese, the Chinese immigrants from the fifties still hardly speak Dutch, for them it isn't really needed, almost all their offspring end up on universities and beat us in Starcraft. They have the same difficulties from the go but easily outperform native Dutchies in just about everything.

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Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube

Its not about smarts its about culture. People who grow up feeling unwanted by society (often helped by their parents' own views and experiences as minorities) can hardly be expected to be as invested in the standards as someone who grows up surrounded by the trappings of generations of stability and dominance. The solutions aren't simple because the problems aren't simple.

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Probably, but there are very good reasons that we aren't all that happy with north-africans. By now they just screwed up any goodwill that used to be there. You could rightfully claim that they are discriminated, but they kinda owe that to themselves. No company will hire a north-african if they can also get a Dutchman, because the mentality is totaly different, believe me I have experience there, they are unreliable, trying to keep all my promises was the most stressfull job ever, one is sick, one is suddenly on holiday, one is two hours late, some don't show up at all. And don't get me started of the rediculous overpresentation in crime. They have made themself unwanted by their own behaviour.

Edit, forgot the many times when they suddenly show up in a tent or a man-dress the second they get a contract, with no other purpose than getting fired and run to the army of gutmenschen who have no other purpose than destroying you financially, they live from destroying your company, the fuckers are payed for that by our own government, a lawyer isn't free for those on the receiving end. So nobody takes the risk anymore, they know better than that by now. That is tragic for those of genuinly good will, but it has been ruined and you can't blame us for it.

Yes, Dutchmen loathe Tunisians, Algerians, and Libyans.

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believe me I have experience there,

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Fragony's argument everywhere in every discussion.

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Originally Posted by Hax

Yes, Dutchmen loathe Tunisians, Algerians, and Libyans.




Fragony's argument everywhere in every discussion.

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Don't get me wrong, I don't dislike any of them, but if you ask me if I actively dscriminated them the honest answer would be yes. But I am not the architect of the situation, most of the politicians are carreer politicians, it means absolutily nothing to them that we simply cannot get the job done under their conditions, it would take another employee to make sure everything goes smoothly. That was permentally the first two hours of my day, I couldn't do my actual work because of it. But you just can't don't deliver something you said you would, things I could absolutily have delivered if I didnt have discrinated and had Turkish or Polish or Dutch people instead, they always show up in time, are never sick, and take plesseare in working as hard as they can. Thete really is no proposition, the makable society of these social-democrats doesn't work, things just aren't as they think they are, company's can't just raise taxes if the money is gone. Politcs is all these guys know, any so solution they can come up is beyond the extremily narrow marges that is their level playing-field. They just don't get that two hands just aren't enough to carry out their political agenda. Not with the extrememily high taxations, all the rules that only apply to Dutch companies while a Polish guy can get his licence to drive truck with a bottle of wodka. If you think about not recognisin that our economy is killed makes you guilty of the consequenses it could have.

ITT: Classical racism from the 20's dressed up in modern day language to make it appear smart.

It fails. Hard.

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

ITT: Classical racism from the 20's dressed up in modern day language to make it appear smart.

It fails. Hard.

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:daisy:. I dare you to call me a racist in my face, after I have shown you how upset I am my skinchallenged mates will give you prickly flowers with extra big thorns because you are being mean to me.

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Originally Posted by PanzerJaeger

Why the dismissive tone? This is a big story, at least in the US. Busing and forced racial mixing caused significant social strife, and it was one of the largest and most intrusive social policies ever implemented in the states. On a forum where a Donald Sterling thread has three pages of results, I think its failure merits some discussion.

In any event, growing evidence suggests that the economic portion of the trite and poorly supported socioeconomic explanation for the achievement gap is more of an excuse than reality.

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What you describe here eliminates racial differences as an explanation to the alleged issue. Also, busing was "one of the largest and most intrusive social policies ever implemented"? What?

Slavery, anyone? Jim Crow, voter restrictions, committee on un-american activities, racial segregation, jailing homosexual? I could go on, but I believe my point is made. Do you seriously believe busing students around ranks as high on the shit-list as lawful lynchings based on race or jailing someone because of anal between two consenting adults...?

Stop your self-victimization, please.

Also, it must be noted that Kadagar's "study" isn't a study at all, and the "scientist" who wrote it isn't a scientist either. It's about as useful as pocket lint.

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Originally Posted by Fragony

:daisy:. I dare you to call me a racist in my face, after I have shown you how upset I am my skinchallenged mates will give you prickly flowers with extra big thorns because you are being mean to me.

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I didn't bother reading your posts in this thread Frags. Given the topic, I know from experience it's going to be a confused mix of racist stereotypes and other such predictable nonsense, which I have already read several times on this forum.

My reply was based on the other posts in this thread.

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Originally Posted by Fragony

:daisy:. I dare you to call me a racist in my face, after I have shown you how upset I am my skinchallenged mates will give you prickly flowers with extra big thorns because you are being mean to me.

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Frags you dont need to break your face over this.
Also refuting accusations of racism would be somewhat more effective when you don't immediately after call someone "skinchallenged".

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Originally Posted by Greyblades

Frags you dont need to break your face over this.
Also refuting accusations of racism would be somewhat more effective when you don't immediately after call someone "skinchallenged".

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I know it's racist, that doesn't mean it's hostile. Refine defintios because they are way off as they are right now. Currently, yes I am absolutily a racist. That doesn't mean however that there is any harm to be expected from me. I am no hater, word needs a change in it's use, it doesn't say what it should say, and it's never understood because of an almost natural scolding of what is a perfectly fine theory. The left is just another religion, theory of my own, feel free to burn me.

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Originally Posted by Fragony

I know it's racist, that doesn't mean it's hostile. Refine defintios because they are way off as they are right now. Currently, yes I am absolutily a racist. That doesn't mean however that there is any harm to be expected from me. I am no hater, word needs a change in it's use, it doesn't say what it should say, and it's never understood because of an almost natural scolding of what is a perfectly fine theory. The left is just another religion, theory of my own, feel free to burn me.

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The thing is Fragony, there are no such thing as 'races' in the biological sense there is a serious lack of genetic difference and you have to be overly simplistic to your classifications to the degree of basically saying "dog" when pointing at four legged fuzzy animal.

It is actually more a concept which is a social construct typically attributed to various ethnic groups. Ethnic groups on the otherhand are a collection of culture, religion, heritage, similar traits, a long list of things which are more than biological in its make up.

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Originally Posted by Greyblades

Frags you dont need to break your face over this.
Also refuting accusations of racism would be somewhat more effective when you don't immediately after call someone "skinchallenged".

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I am not talking about my face, getting to break that is going to be a bit hard unless you have a black belt in jiu jitsu and judo, have 10 years of experience in kickboxing and take on fights without any protection just for fun. You guys misunderstand me, that is not my doing, but yours. I would never harm anything. I comb shetland pony's ffs

'Skinchallenged was a joke by the way, it's called irony just like the whale up your ass, tell him I said hiiiiii

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Originally Posted by Tiaexz

The thing is Fragony, there are no such thing as 'races' in the biological sense there is a serious lack of genetic difference and you have to be overly simplistic to your classifications to the degree of basically saying "dog" when pointing at four legged fuzzy animal.

It is actually more a concept which is a social construct typically attributed to various ethnic groups. Ethnic groups on the overhand are a collection of culture, religion, heritage, similar traits, a long list of things which are not biological in its make up.

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First off, condolences on the color change of your username.

You are absolutely correct that there is no genetic relevance to race. Genetic variation within "races" is as great or greater within a "race" than among the "races."

Socio-culturally, however, the impact of race has been profound.

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Originally Posted by Fragony

I am not talking about my face, getting to break that is going to be a bit hard unless you have a black belt in jiu jitsu and judo, have 10 years of experience in kickboxing and take on fights without any protection just for fun. You guys misunderstand me, that is not my doing, but yours. I would never harm anything. I comb shetland pony's ffs

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It was the bad grammar before the edit. To construct, the object "my face" was paired with "broken". What you most meant was adding "yours" after "broken". Which would have also been a threat and a big nono to post on the forum. :bow:

Rggardless, I don't want these insinnuations, I return every courtisy. Have some manners.

400 years of slavery, 100 years of de jure segeragation and only 60 years removed. But its that rap music, I tell you what.

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Originally Posted by Fragony

Rggardless, I don't want these insinnuations, I return every courtisy. Have some manners.

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Sure, you're a racist, but at least you're a polite racist.

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Originally Posted by Greyblades

Sure, you're a racist, but at least you're a polite racist.

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I am a racist only in so far that I think there are differences.

No, you're a racist because you think those differences matter, see: "skinchallenged".

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Originally Posted by Greyblades

No, you're a racist because you think those differences matter, see: "skinchallenged".

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Already said that was just a joke. There is a whale in your irony-detector get the poor thing out

Ah yes, "it was a joke," the bully mainstay. Quite why people keep thinking it's an automatic "get out of jail free" phrase I will never know.

Here is where I get to say that I have black friends, and you get to say that they all say that.

I am sorry for you that you know so much about bully's. Now giveme your lunchmoney.

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Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube

I've met a lot of grown ass white adult men who sounded like children when trying to read out loud. In a few generations, if the rich continue to suffocate the poor, what some consider black problems will be everyone's problems.

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I've met a few grown ass black adult men who sounded like white men when talking about why they were moving into a suburb further out. Not sure they were leading the "white flight" but they were leaving a couple years after I was moving in. LOL, guess I was behind the trend. I will echo the many who have qualms about this whole "black culture" reference. It's a socio-economic issue. I will agree that the black and Hispanic community has bought into the socio-economic issue and apparently believe that they can't rise above it and must help perpetuate it. I think it's important to remember that many "white trash" and "rednecks" have the same approach.

*sorry GC, wasn't necessarily responding to you, just wanted to steal your format

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Originally Posted by The Lurker Below

I've met a few grown ass black adult men who sounded like white men when talking about why they were moving into a suburb further out. Not sure they were leading the "white flight" but they were leaving a couple years after I was moving in. LOL, guess I was behind the trend. I will echo the many who have qualms about this whole "black culture" reference. It's a socio-economic issue. I will agree that the black and Hispanic community has bought into the socio-economic issue and apparently believe that they can't rise above it and must help perpetuate it. I think it's important to remember that many "white trash" and "rednecks" have the same approach.

*sorry GC, wasn't necessarily responding to you, just wanted to steal your format

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Sure, it's of course a very nice present for those who are already convincd but on a scale from 1 to 10, where would you put the argument, there are simply studies that take race into the equation. I haven't read them, but social-econonics and ethicity will always be a bit of a chicken&egg thing. I know what I expect, but no way I could ever be sure about it, it's impossible. But not t be dismissed in my humble opinion.

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Originally Posted by Fragony

Sure, it's of course a very nice present for those who are already convincd but on a scale from 1 to 10, where would you put the argument, there are simply studies that take race into the equation. I haven't read them, but social-econonics and ethicity will always be a bit of a chicken&egg thing. I know what I expect, but no way I could ever be sure about it, it's impossible. But not t be dismissed in my humble opinion.

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Maybe one of the reasons these studies are so bitterly debated and refuted is that they are all about math. ie "scale from 1 to 10". How valid can a measurement of human emotion, which frequently is not rational or logical, and defies math, really be? Having said that I'm sure somebody will respond with links to some psychological studies that claim to measure human motivation. Sorry Fragony, I guess to answer your question my opinion is that race is a 1 on that scale. Are there generations of training incorporated into our DNA that will take more generations to unlearn? But ultimately, race is not the underlying cause of the problems.

And what is white? what is black? What is hispanic?

Will someone who believes in races explain to me how we classify them?

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Originally Posted by Strike For The South

And what is white? what is black? What is hispanic?

Will someone who believes in races explain to me how we classify them?

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The only definitions that would remain valid are cultural definitions. "Race" per se is pretty well unsupportable. Once you open it up to a cultural definition, you have to accept that all of us embody a multiplicity of cultural identities, only one of which might be labeled -- for convenience -- based on melanin content.

Geez, another example of someone thinking they know best and fixing things for us. Kids go to school where they live. Perhaps when black or Hispanic kids go to schools that are mostly black/Hispanic/minority populated its because that the makeup of the neighborhood? What will they do next, tell people they have to move? Just let people go the school where they live. Busing kids so they can have a racial mix is as bad as separating them by color, quit looking at what color people are and let them live in peace. If they want to work on something then work toward the root issues. Work harder on educational and work opportunities for minorities so that demographic can change. Star young with these kids so maybe they will growup seeing that they have opportunities and can make a better life for themselves and their kids. But the bottom line is you cant make them. Lots of these kids don't see any choices or see themselves having a future. Give them some opportunities and maybe things will start changing. But busing kids so the colormix changes is only good for the people who have something to gain from it....those people who see a problem.

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Originally Posted by Strike For The South

And what is white? what is black? What is hispanic?

Will someone who believes in races explain to me how we classify them?

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For something that is claimed to be so obvious, it sure is hard to get a straight answer of just what it is.

Like this?

http://www.policymic.com/articles/87...out-our-future

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Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh

The only definitions that would remain valid are cultural definitions. "Race" per se is pretty well unsupportable. Once you open it up to a cultural definition, you have to accept that all of us embody a multiplicity of cultural identities, only one of which might be labeled -- for convenience -- based on melanin content.

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But this per se invalidates any sort of suspicion based on race?

Maybe the "meaningful" segregation is between have and have-not; even with this qualifier it is hard to explain why the US does so poorly in international comparisons - The US sucks, but parts can look good when compared to other parts within a system
that fails.

http://www.bbc.com/news/business-27442541

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Originally Posted by The Lurker Below

Maybe one of the reasons these studies are so bitterly debated and refuted is that they are all about math. ie "scale from 1 to 10". How valid can a measurement of human emotion, which frequently is not rational or logical, and defies math, really be? Having said that I'm sure somebody will respond with links to some psychological studies that claim to measure human motivation. Sorry Fragony, I guess to answer your question my opinion is that race is a 1 on that scale. Are there generations of training incorporated into our DNA that will take more generations to unlearn? But ultimately, race is not the underlying cause of the problems.

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You see, I am absolutily not sure of it. And even if it's rather obvious that some groups perform significantly worse I wouldn't want to be the one making the suggestion and having to explain it as the social-economic factors can't be denied. There is no difference when there is a level playing field, I won't deny that either. It's a rather hard and uncomfortable take on things, but I don't bite my to tongue when considering it, I think it's perfectly possible. To be honest, I really do think that there are differences between ethnicities, that doesn't come with any judgement. It might be prejudice and racist, but I can assure you that there is 0% harm in it. Those don't get that last part aren't invited when I give a party. This should be a discussion where I am totally willing to take my loss, but please don't make something out of me that I am not just for considerating it, that is not directed at you by the way. Discusion needs care, not instant insinuation, we are all less off because of doing that.

I wonder how high socially an African American could go with the same parenting as an European American.

Guess we will never know unless Obama puts some Federal grant money into the research... :smoking:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Papewaio

I wonder how high socially an African American could go with the same parenting as an European American.

---

The same, there is no difference then. For my argument I am my own worst enemy.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Papewaio

I wonder how high socially an African American could go with the same parenting as an European American.

Guess we will never know unless Obama puts some Federal grant money into the research... :smoking:

---

Weirdly enough, I think the best testing would be adopted children in Europe. Not because Europeans aren't going to treat the adopted as foreigners at times, but because we don't have that white vs black culture legacy in the way. We'll have much smaller range difference in how we treat them.

Intelligence: New Findings and Theoretical Developments (Nisbett et. al. 2012)

Quote:

---

We can be confident that the environmental differences that
are associated with social class have a large effect on IQ.
We know this because adopted children typically score 12
points or more higher than comparison children (e.g., siblings
left with birth parents or children adopted by lower
SES parents), and adoption typically moves children from
lower to higher SES homes

[...]

Hart and Risley also found a
large difference in the ratio of encouraging comments made
to children versus reprimands. The child of professional
parents received six encouragements for every reprimand,
the child of working-class parents received two encouragements
per reprimand, and the child of unemployed African
American mothers received two reprimands per encouragement

[...]

It is almost surely the case, however, that a substantial
fraction of the IQ advantage is due to the environments
independent of the genes associated with them. This is
because we know that adoption adds 12–18 points to the IQ
of unrelated children, who are usually from lower SES
backgrounds

---

Quote:

---

. See Nisbett, 2005, 2009,
for the view that the direct evidence indicates that the
difference between the races is entirely due to environment.)

Nisbett (2009) maintains that there is actually a substantial
amount of direct evidence stemming from the fact that the
“Black” gene pool in the United States contains a large
amount of European genes. He maintains that almost all the
research indicates no higher IQs for Blacks with a significant
degree of European heritage than for those with much
less. One of the most telling of the studies was available at
the time of the Neisser et al. (1996) report but was apparently
not known to them. This is an adoption study by
Moore (1986). She examined the IQs of Black and mixed
race children averaging 81⁄2 years of age who were adopted
by middle-class families who were either Black or White.
The children who were of half-European origin had virtually
the same average IQ as the children who were of
exclusively Black origin. Hence European genes were of
no advantage to this group of “Blacks.” Children (both
Black and mixed-race) adopted by White families had IQs
13 points higher on average than those adopted by Black
families, indicating that there were marked differences in
the environments of Black and White families relevant to
socialization for IQ; indeed, the differences were large
enough to account for virtually the entire Black–White gap
in IQ at the time of the study.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Montmorency

Intelligence: New Findings and Theoretical Developments (Nisbett et. al. 2012)

---

Thank you for that post, Montmorency. :bow:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Fragony

There is no difference when there is a level playing field, I won't deny that

---

Just remember this when other instincts consider jumping in the way.

That there are certainly negative traits to certain communities, I'm quickly on board with you brother. Just remember that it is not as simple as where the community came from and you're golden.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by The Lurker Below

Just remember this when other instincts consider jumping in the way.

That there are certainly negative traits to certain communities, I'm quickly on board with you brother. Just remember that it is not as simple as where the community came from and you're golden.

---

Aren't certain instintcs a bit on on the side I kinda have a problem witb. The problem is political correctness. No discussion can be held within the very narrow margins that have been set. You can't have a discussion if it's confined. That should be a principle.

Presenting the topic of 'human races' as something black and white does it a great disservice, methinks.

I suggest that human genetics is like a mulitidimensional spectrum. If I go from Norway to Italy, I'll find that the average hair colour and eye colour is darker. Facial features are probably also slightly different. Perhaps even a slight change in average genetically induced pigmentation. Different races? Hardly. Many ethnic Norwegians could probably pass as ethnic Italians (if they'd been living under the Italian sun for some time) and vice versa.

Travelling even further south, to Libya; where Arabs live. Now the average hair and eye colours are even darker. Average pigmentation has also changed. Very few (if any at all) ethnic Norwegians could pass as ethnic Arab Libyans, and vice versa. Different races? Certainly starting to make a lot of sense now.

Move even further south and...you get the idea.

I think the concept of race - ironically, given the local obsession that can sometimes be found here - makes even less sense in the US, given the great mixing of different ethnicities that has taken place there. 'white' is no race, neither is 'black' - it's just skin colour and does not indicate whether the rest of the DNA is shared or not.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ironside

Weirdly enough, I think the best testing would be adopted children in Europe. Not because Europeans aren't going to treat the adopted as foreigners at times, but because we don't have that white vs black culture legacy in the way. We'll have much smaller range difference in how we treat them.

---

Like Obama's home environment.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Strike For The South

And what is white? what is black? What is hispanic?

Will someone who believes in races explain to me how we classify them?

---

Why don't we use the Census Bureau's model and allow people to self select, which is kind of the point. Race does exist in the US in 2014, at least in a social context; and it is clear that it has an effect on educational outcomes above and beyond economic factors. Unfortunately, intellectually lazy appeals to geneticism, while scientifically valid, ignore the impact that racially-derived cultural attitudes have on real people. Being born to self identified black parents automatically places one at a significant comparable disadvantage versus other racial groups, regardless of economic station. That's reality, and frankly, reciting the same line on race you read on Salon five years ago sidesteps the issue. (And this isn't targeted specifically at Strike. It just seems that any time race and the real impact it has on society is introduced into discussion, the usual suspects leap at the opportunity to repeat the same vapid 'race doesn't exist' line. It sounds intelligent but addresses nothing.)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by PanzerJaeger

It just seems that any time race and the real impact it has on society is introduced into discussion, the usual suspects leap at the opportunity to repeat the same vapid 'race doesn't exist' line. It sounds intelligent but addresses nothing.

---

I disagree. The evidence based on socioeconomic factors just outweighs skin-colour so significantly, that sometimes people need to be repeatedly corrected, even though there is a small handful who seem obsessed at sticking to 19th century stereotypes for their own ideological superiority complexes.

It is usually the same handful where you point towards other minorities, they are often outspoken on those too. May it be on woman's rights, homosexuality, religion and name-it. Whilst it is common-consensus in day-to-day living to tolerate and accept others, without really much thought going into it, there are always those who seem to apply stigma where it is not really wanted or desired.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by PanzerJaeger

Why don't we use the Census Bureau's model and allow people to self select, which is kind of the point. Race does exist in the US in 2014, at least in a social context; and it is clear that it has an effect on educational outcomes above and beyond economic factors. Unfortunately, intellectually lazy appeals to geneticism, while scientifically valid, ignore the impact that racially-derived cultural attitudes have on real people. Being born to self identified black parents automatically places one at a significant comparable disadvantage versus other racial groups, regardless of economic station. That's reality, and frankly, reciting the same line on race you read on Salon five years ago sidesteps the issue. (And this isn't targeted specifically at Strike. It just seems that any time race and the real impact it has on society is introduced into discussion, the usual suspects leap at the opportunity to repeat the same vapid 'race doesn't exist' line. It sounds intelligent but addresses nothing.)

---

I must honestly say that it is more than a common fact that some ethnic groups do better than other ethnic groups in different areas of physical and psychological abilities.

Again: It's a FACT.

Heck, look at it logically... Intelligence is very obviously different in different ethnical groups, no? I mean seriously, if one hold against this argument they are extremely hard pressed to then explain how it comes that a species (homo sapiens sapiens) will evolve in a totally uniform manner no matter what surroundings they have.

That kind of goes against everything and all that we have learnt about evolution. Am I wrong?

The people claiming that we, as ethical groups, are all equal - have a HUGE intellectual mountain to climb. I dare anyone to say that ethnicity doesn't matter when it comes to general trends about intelligence.

Again, it's been proven over and over again. East Asians are a little bit smarter than Europeans. Heck, I am European and openly admit that YES, yes indeed, they are smarter in general than my countrymen. Where is the shame in this?

Same with black people, they tend to run faster and be more enduring than us white people. Why should this be a reason of shame for me? I know myself well enough to know I can run faster than the absolute majority of black people, and if you put us on a ski slope I am sure i would win even against the worlds best black skier / snowboarder.

So, what exactly is the problem?

Should black people not be proud of being faster?
Should East Asian people, or jews, not be proud that they rock the IQ charts?

I just don't get it, why cant we just accept that we are different?

Same thinking should at least be understood by everyone in an enlightened society. No?

Again: If you don't "believe" that people are different - as well as different ethnical groups are being different, you will be hard pressed to prove it. The argument FOR ethnical groups being different is easily proved...

You know, different skin colour, brain size, medical conditions and so on and so on...



http://www.ibc7.org/article/journal_v.php?sid=312 <- <- <- this is the link that was broken before... It shows that East Asians are a little bit smarter than Europeans, and that black people are completely off the scale.

The study basically checked which genes are in common for prospering students, and then checked where these genes could be found. IIRC the average number of good academical genes was around:

36 for east asians
32 for europeans
16 fore africans

Draw your own conclusions from it, I hope the link works this go around :)

Oh, and to repeat the main point of this thread.

To say that ethnical groups have the same cognitive abilities as any other groups goes against everything we know about evolution.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tiaexz

I disagree. The evidence based on socioeconomic factors just outweighs skin-colour so significantly, that sometimes people need to be repeatedly corrected, even though there is a small handful who seem obsessed at sticking to 19th century stereotypes for their own ideological superiority complexes.

It is usually the same handful where you point towards other minorities, they are often outspoken on those too. May it be on woman's rights, homosexuality, religion and name-it. Whilst it is common-consensus in day-to-day living to tolerate and accept others, without really much thought going into it, there are always those who seem to apply stigma where it is not really wanted or desired.

---

Source?

I don't know about Germany, but here in Sweden some skin colours is very over-represented when it comes to certain crimes... And this over-representation remains when you account for socioeconomic factors.

We have loads of East Asian people who have moved here. They work hard and they do quite OK, second generation even perform excellent.. Compare that to Middle Eastern or Sub-Sahara-Africans and you will notice that they do a LOT worse than any other immigrant group.

Please don't tell me that straight biological factors (such as brain size and will to jump into bed with a family member) doesn't have an impact. Don't tell me cultural factors don't have an impact.

And guess what, if you take a guy with a really bad biological background (such as intra-family-marriage for hundreds of years), and combine that with a culture that just isn't very successful in modern society... And you will get a member of society who... How should I phrase it... "Are less probable to benefit society at large overly much".

This should be easy enough for anyone to understand.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV

To say that ethnical groups have the same cognitive abilities as any other groups goes against everything we know about evolution.

---

We know why there are differences in skin color and other physical traits between populations, they are adaptations to different climates. But what would have pressured different groups to evolve differences in cognitive abilibities?

If Africans make such great athletes than how is it that they aren't evolved to be as good at skiing as white people?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by PanzerJaeger

Why don't we use the Census Bureau's model and allow people to self select, which is kind of the point.

---

So how would that work? A guy with a black skin can select to be white and gets to live in an upper class neighborhood? And a white-skinned person can select latino and go live in a middle class neighborhood?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by PanzerJaeger

Race does exist in the US in 2014, at least in a social context; and it is clear that it has an effect on educational outcomes above and beyond economic factors. Unfortunately, intellectually lazy appeals to geneticism, while scientifically valid, ignore the impact that racially-derived cultural attitudes have on real people. Being born to self identified black parents automatically places one at a significant comparable disadvantage versus other racial groups, regardless of economic station. That's reality, and frankly, reciting the same line on race you read on Salon five years ago sidesteps the issue. (And this isn't targeted specifically at Strike. It just seems that any time race and the real impact it has on society is introduced into discussion, the usual suspects leap at the opportunity to repeat the same vapid 'race doesn't exist' line. It sounds intelligent but addresses nothing.)

---

I don't even know what Salon five is, and what is a self identified black parent? How many people with yellow, green and "white" skin self identify as blacks and how many people with black skin self identify as yellow? And why are economic factors the base of educational outcome? Does that mean if they're too poor they have a bad base anyway?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube

I don't think Kadagar understands evolution as he thinks he does. The very few proven differences that exist are negligible compared to life-style, education, and socio-economic status.

---

You can't be sure of that, that it might in fact be racial that some ethnicities don't perform as good as other should't be dismissed by default. It's perfectly possible. Why couldn't it be? Gimme that. I know it's an insulting thought to make but I am ok with that, also ok with possibly offending.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV

Source?

---

Montmorency linked a very good one on the previous page. I suggest reading it.

Quote:

---

Please don't tell me that straight biological factors (such as brain size and will to jump into bed with a family member) doesn't have an impact. Don't tell me cultural factors don't have an impact.

---

You mean like Iceland or ourselves before urbanization of our populations? Norse regions were especially prone due to this due to their sparse landscapes of resources, yet, we heard stories about those mead-swilling uneducated pagans which ambushed our shores. With their statistically higher crime-rates and ill-culture and now Norse society is deemed one of the pinnacles of human progress.

The thing is, you seem to fail to see how history is constantly playing out, over and over. Comparing some some random backwater which doesn't even have much access to water which doesn't have as many university degrees as a upper-class suburb is not taking note of reality. If the genetics of 'race' played such a significant difference, then I shouldn't be able to go to work and see doctors of colour who out-educate the both of us together many times over, they should be severely stunted to such levels according to your beliefs yet they are not. There is a great many reasons which come into play on a socio-economic level and you cannot really account for them at all due to the difficulty in able to manage it. Culture comes under socioeconomic factors, culture is not inherent in a persons being, there are different cultures in a city-by-city basis too, nevermind intra-city populations.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Fragony

You can't be sure of that, that it might in fact be racial that some ethnicities don't perform as good as other should't be dismissed by default. It's perfectly possible. Why couldn't it be? Gimme that. I know it's an insulting thought to make but I am ok with that, also ok with possibly offending.

---

The differences between people are statistically insignificant in the population when it comes to race, as it has been stated before, there is more intra-genetic differences than there are between said 'races'. In short, there is more variation in you and me, Fragony, then there is between one of us and a 'black' person. Certain people genetically are prone to various pros and cons in various situations but that is down to an individual basis, such as height and other measures but this isn't down as some mythical block-group of race. There are factors such as Sickle-cell which allowed some populations greater resistance against malaria at the cost of them blocking the blood vessels but this isn't some inherent trait on a race basis.

So are there genetic differences? Yes.
Do these differences reflect 'race' constructs ? No

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tiaexz

You mean like Iceland or ourselves before urbanization of our populations? Norse regions were especially prone due to this due to their sparse landscapes of resources, yet, we heard stories about those mead-swilling uneducated pagans which ambushed our shores. With their statistically higher crime-rates and ill-culture and now Norse society is deemed one of the pinnacles of human progress.
.

---

I know It's off topic, but I couldn't find mead anywhere in Copenhagen. They've gone soft, man. They've gone soft.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV

Should black people not be proud of being faster?

To say that ethnical groups have the same cognitive abilities as any other groups goes against everything we know about evolution.

---

/ignoring the false premise

They should not, we'll take that away from them too!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nx--0AIZoPQ

It would also be disingenuous to declare your premise false and not acknowledge that a large portion of people share it. Case in point, the responses to the above video.

Kadagar has posted one bogus "study", which is nothing more than ramblings from a non-scientist(who also dabbles in parapsychology, that's a sign of quality!), with no more access to cool scientist stuff than we do.

He has been given a proper source, a paper written by real scientists with credentials(you know, those you can't order by mail).

He has chosen to ignore the latter source, and continue to drone on with the assumption that the former source means something. As it's just nonsense, his posts are as unintentionally hilarious as they always are.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Myth

I know It's off topic, but I couldn't find mead anywhere in Copenhagen. They've gone soft, man. They've gone soft.

---

You can, but mead is a fruitwine. It's not a manly beer.

I believe mead is fermented from honey; I made a number of variations on the stuff over ~15 years, some with fruit...all with honey :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by HopAlongBunny

I believe mead is fermented from honey; I made a number of variations on the stuff over ~15 years, some with fruit...all with honey :)

---

It is indeed fermentedfrom honey, but fruits are added for flavour. At least in the north..

So... can anyone link to a peer reviewed report that clearly shows that white people have as much IQ as East-Asian people?

From what I have seen, us whites seem to be sub par intellectually compared to them angled eyes :)

Also, again... I do believe that black guys run better than white guys. I am not saying that every black guy run better than any white guy - I am saying that those small genetic differences makes black people better at running.

There is a ****load of information on the topic.

Discovery Channel have run a documentary starring Morgan Freeman as narrator, that explains the racial differences rather well - from my perspective. Look it up :)

I am of course not saying Discovery holds the truth, but it's a pleasant way to learn about the subject, and it will give you a ton of material to resource further.

There has been studies showing no big concern, yes. Generally they worked with an extremely limited amount of test subjects.

More general studies of course shows that racial differences do exist.

It's kind of a "Doh!" that people under different environmental circumstances will evolve in different ways.

Mind you, I talk solely about IQ here. I haven't really dug in to it, but I happily assume that black people might well absolutely kick white peoples behind, in other fields than pure IQ - intellectual power.

There are what? Gardner found 7 intelligence's (IQ being one)... I think today we measure 8 intelligence's though, I really haven't read up much on it the last years.

So, we have now moved on from one rubbish paper by a parapsychology fan, to the discovery channel...

What an improvement. I can smell the quality!

Attachment 12930

I've been saying this for years and now I found a linky and a quoty for you:

http://www.brainy-child.com/expert/i...chooling.shtml

Quote:

---

A few more truths about schooling and IQ (which may surprise anyone who views it as a measure of innate intelligence):

Although intelligence does influence the decision to stay in school, staying in school itself can raise IQ or prevent it from dropping.

IQ is affected by delayed schooling. A drop in IQ is seen when schooling is delayed.

Each additional month a student remains in school may increase her/his IQ above what would have been expected had he dropped out.

IQ is affected by remaining in school longer. The longer a student stays in school, the higher her/his IQ.

Dropping out of school can also decrease IQ.

IQ is affected by vacations. The longer the vacation, especially when the child's time is spent on least "mind-stimulating" activities, this decline is evident. (So, parents – make sure your child's holidays are filled with learning experiences in a fun way; e.g., visiting places of interest, enrichment programs, family-bonding activities, etc.)

In short, schooling has a long-term effect on the level of intelligence. Education increases a student's capacity to deal with the problem solving tasks typically found in intelligence tests; therefore a student who has mastered those skills at school will inevitably do well on an IQ test.

---

Attachment 12930

I've been saying this for years and now I found a linky and a quoty for you:

http://www.brainy-child.com/expert/i...chooling.shtml

Quote:

---

A few more truths about schooling and IQ (which may surprise anyone who views it as a measure of innate intelligence):

Although intelligence does influence the decision to stay in school, staying in school itself can raise IQ or prevent it from dropping.

IQ is affected by delayed schooling. A drop in IQ is seen when schooling is delayed.

Each additional month a student remains in school may increase her/his IQ above what would have been expected had he dropped out.

IQ is affected by remaining in school longer. The longer a student stays in school, the higher her/his IQ.

Dropping out of school can also decrease IQ.

IQ is affected by vacations. The longer the vacation, especially when the child's time is spent on least "mind-stimulating" activities, this decline is evident. (So, parents – make sure your child's holidays are filled with learning experiences in a fun way; e.g., visiting places of interest, enrichment programs, family-bonding activities, etc.)

In short, schooling has a long-term effect on the level of intelligence. Education increases a student's capacity to deal with the problem solving tasks typically found in intelligence tests; therefore a student who has mastered those skills at school will inevitably do well on an IQ test.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Husar

Attachment 12930

I've been saying this for years and now I found a linky and a quoty for you:

http://www.brainy-child.com/expert/i...chooling.shtml

---

Yeah, jolly good...

I do however have a notion:

How come East Asian kids chose to stay in school and move on to university - more than black kids. I guess it comes down to the story of the chicken and the egg...

Are white people sub-par compared to East Asian people, or does the white people belong to a culture that sets them apart from East Asians?

Genetics aside, one have to be blind on both eyes and an ear to actually believe every race is identical.

I am secure in myself and my abilities, thus I have no problem with openly stating that I indeed do believe west German Jews and eastern Asians beat my own ethnic group.

Am I wrong?

Here is the fundamental problem with biological race, Kad:

1. Banana, school bus, the sun.
2. Algae, grass, leaves.

What do the things in (1) have in common? They are yellow. Otherwise, they're about as different as you can get.
What do the things in (2) have in common? They are green - because chlorophyll is a fundamental constituent within their cellular structure. They are closely related as plant life.

Now, what you do with human groups is form something like (1) up there, and then ask, "But surely there are differences between this and other groups!"

Yes, Kad, obviously there are differences. The point is that there are no systematic differences because there is no systematic fine-grained relationship between various groups of "blacks", just as there is none between groups of "whites", or between both, when it comes to most attributes you'd care to name.

If you want to triangulate useful racial classifications then look for small and isolated kinship groups to start with. For instance, it could be that the Tarahumara and the Kalenjin constitute a more useful racial categorization from the biological perspective than what you currently rely on.

TLDR: Your racial categories are bogus and you need knew ones.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube

For all the stereotyping of racism in America, I see more insidious and eloquent defenses of racism from Europeans right here on these forums than I ever hear from Americans (lol, with a few exceptions). Kadagar trots out the over-representation of minorities in the criminal justice systems of Europe as something he can lean on to prove that they are more inherently trouble-making, and yet never considers that maybe they're just arrested more often because the cops have views like Kadagar's... That high horse isn't so high, O throwers of banana peals

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Give me a break, man! I've been saying in every other Euro-matters thread that it's the nationalists and the racists here in Europe who are standing in the way of us achieving our true inherent superiority as a European master race...