If your child is not vaccinated, they should be barred from attending public school

I am a firm believer that people need to be protected from themselves sometimes. This is one of those times

But there is a chance that your child will die or become autistic should they take the vaccine!

Actually, I think the number of unvaccinated children harmed by perfectly preventable diseases exceeds the number who might die of an allergic reaction to taking the vaccine -- and the autism thing has ZERO statistically valid support -- but some folks try not to let themselves get confused by pesky facts.

This subject makes me really mad, so I am just going to thank the OP and leave it at that.

Nope. I believe that people have a right to control what is forcibly injected into their bodies. Do I take vaccination? Oh heck yea, for certain illnesses you might be crazy not to. Should the uneducated public be voting on what is forced on other people? Hell no.

An intelligent and decent parent vaccinates their children. There is no link between vaccination and autism. Unvaccinated children do not often enough become horribly I'll and die to mandate this, though. We are talking here about mandating an HPV vaccination for people.... Not something to prevent hemmorhagic fever. It always comes back to force. Are you guys that completely out of tricks?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh

But there is a chance that your child will die or become autistic should they take the vaccine!

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Relevant link explaining how vaccines causes autism.

Anyway, the child should not be banned from school. Rather, we should do what we do with that kooky Christian sect who refuses blood transfers - temporarily remove custody from the parents, give it to the state, inject vacines, hand kids back to parents.

BTW, this is the kind of moronic consensus I vote for representatives to go to Congress to block.

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Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube

Considering HPV is rampant in the US, can cause Cervical Cancer, and is one of the few STDs that a condom is less effective against, I'd say mandating that particular vaccination would be a great boon for public health. There are cities in America where as many as 1/4 of sexually active women have HPV. The stats are probably similar for dudes, but because of certain annual medical procedures that men don't have to worry about the stats are much more reliable for women. So I wouldn't use that as an example, its actually a pretty big problem. :shrug:

Really that's kind of the point, in the end. This isn't about the health of the children that aren't being vaccinated, its about the children around them. Unvaccinated kids give viruses a place to hang out and mutate and come into contact with other people over time. Total and wide-spread vaccination can make some diseases completely extinct, but a few stubborn fools can ruin it for everyone.

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"We demand to inject you - for the greater good."

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube

Considering HPV is rampant in the US, can cause Cervical Cancer, and is one of the few STDs that a condom is less effective against, I'd say mandating that particular vaccination would be a great boon for public health. There are cities in America where as many as 1/4 of sexually active women have HPV. The stats are probably similar for dudes, but because of certain annual medical procedures that men don't have to worry about the stats are much more reliable for women. So I wouldn't use that as an example, its actually a pretty big problem. :shrug:

Really that's kind of the point, in the end. This isn't about the health of the children that aren't being vaccinated, its about the children around them. Unvaccinated kids give viruses a place to hang out and mutate and come into contact with other people over time. Total and wide-spread vaccination can make some diseases completely extinct, but a few stubborn fools can ruin it for everyone.

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One in four? Nah man, it's more like 3 in 4. HPV is one of those viruses we 'all' have - except nuns. It doesn't really affect us, apart from getting stuff to grow inside bewbs.

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Originally Posted by ICantSpellDawg

"We demand to inject you - for the greater good."

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We will also take your baby away if you refuse to give it nutrition.

I see no difference.

Absolutily agree.

A child needs food to live. If you deprive it of food you are unduly endangering your child.

It doesn't need vaccines. Doesn't mean you shouldn't get your kids vaccinated.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ICantSpellDawg

A child needs food to live. If you deprive it of food you are unduly endangering your child.

It doesn't need vaccines. Doesn't mean you shouldn't get your kids vaccinated.

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Here's the thing; a child does need vaccines in order to survive. Just like they need food to survive.

Deprive them of either, and yes, you are in danger of killing your offspring.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

Here's the thing; a child does need vaccines in order to survive. Just like they need food to survive.

Deprive them of either, and yes, you are in danger of killing your offspring.

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Nonsense. What you've just said is untrue.

I agree that parents who don't do the research about vaccines are possibly doing their children a disservice. But there are risks to vaccines. More for some than others. More for certain children than others. People should never be forced to be vaccinated against their will.

They should be encouraged to do the due diligence and come to the correct conclusion. They should be informed by medical professionals what that conclusion is most likely to be. If thr vaccination is in the public interest, it can even be made affordable or free. But you lose me at compulsion with penalties

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ICantSpellDawg

Nonsense. What you've just said is untrue.

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Yeah, go ahead and ask the 19th century mother of 9 who watched two of her offspring reach adulthood what she thinks of it.

Or go to Africa.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ICantSpellDawg

I agree that parents who don't do the research about vaccines are possibly doing their children a disservice. But there are risks to vaccines. More for some than others. People should never be forced to be vaccinated against their will.

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Again, I refer you to my previously posted link.

There's risk involved in eating as well. Huge risk, in fact. You can get a ton of diseases from eating. I say we stop doing it.


Any 18-year old or above airhead should be free to be as stupid as they want with their own bodies. They do not, however, have the right to be equally stupid with the bodies of other individuals. Having managed to squirt some semen in the correct place at one point in time does not make you the master of life and death.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

Yeah, go ahead and ask the 19th century mother of 9 who watched two of her offspring reach adulthood what she thinks of it.

Or go to Africa.



Again, I refer you to my previously posted link.

There's risk involved in eating as well. Huge risk, in fact. You can get a ton of diseases from eating. I say we stop doing it.

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Vaccines have inarguably been beneficial to humanity. Advancements in sanitation and nutrition have contributed to the reduction of child mortality to a much greater extent than vaccines, however.

You are wrong to support the forcible injection of people against their will. You would be right to strongly encourage vaccination.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ICantSpellDawg

Vaccines have inarguably been beneficial to humanity. Nutritional advancements have arguably contributed to the reduction of child mortality to a much greater extent than vaccines, however.

You are wrong to support the forcible injection of people against their will. You would be right to strongly encourage vaccination.

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Infant mortality, no. Child mortality, yes.

I support the forcible injection of food, water, education, vaccines, blood transfusions and probably a few others I forget about. I am indeed Hitler in disguise.

You guys hate free action almost as a rule. Rates of acute disease have dropped dramatically over the past 100 years. You make it seem like we are staring down the abyss because some parents are making controversial decisions about their children's healthcare. The second someone doesn't listen to your arguments, the world is on the brink and they must be forced to comply. Your positions are ludicrous and your political opinions are dangerous and abusive of the rights of others.

I am required to take far more vaccination injections and a greater variety than the general public due to working in health/hospitals. If I didn't, I would be a total idiot and would be negligence on part of myself and my employers.

Vaccinations work and do a ton of good, especially for a lot of dreadful diseases. The 'moronic' solution would not to take vaccines so when there is a need for mass-scale vaccination, it should be compulsory. As for HPV, don't get started on the idiocy where those oppose assume their children would never have sexual contact in their lives.

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You make it seem like we are staring down the abyss because some parents are making controversial decisions about their children's healthcare.

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Break-down of Herd immunity is actually evident with the resurgence of many illnesses, because of highly misinformed parents who don't know what is for the best.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ICantSpellDawg

You guys hate free action almost as a rule. Rates of acute disease have dropped dramatically over the past 100 years. You make it seem like we are staring down the abyss because some parents are making controversial decisions about their children's healthcare. The second someone doesn't listen to your arguments, the world is on the brink and they must be forced. Your positions are ludicrous and your political opinions are dangerous and abusive.

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Yes, I have already said I'm Hitler in disguise.

The thing is, you're not arguing in favour of an individuals right to choose for themselves. You are arguing in favour of an individuals right to force others to do as they want.

I do not recognize that right. The cost for the individual choosing is nil. The cost for the individual who is forced to accept the choice is, ultimately, death.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tiaexz

I am required to take far more vaccination injections and a greater variety than the general public due to working in health/hospitals. If I didn't, I would be a total idiot and would be negligence on part of myself and my employers.

Vaccinations work and do a ton of good, especially for a lot of dreadful diseases. The 'moronic' solution would not to take vaccines so when there is a need for mass-scale vaccination, it should be compulsory. As for HPV, don't get started on the idiocy where those oppose assume their children would never have sexual contact in their lives.

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I'm not 100% against vaccinations for certain types of employment, mostly because that employment isn't compelled. For nearly every american, public education is compelled. You effectively have no choice unless you are wealthy enough to put your kids in private school.

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

Yes, I have already said I'm Hitler in disguise.

The thing is, you're not arguing in favour of an individuals right to choose for themselves. You are arguing in favour of an individuals right to force others to do as they want.

I do not recognize that right. The cost for the individual choosing is nil. The cost for the individual who is forced to accept the choice is, ultimately, death.

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Never said anything about Hitler.

Its just that nearly every argument you co e up with includes compulsion of others actions

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Originally Posted by ICantSpellDawg

Never said anything about Hitler.

Its just that nearly every argument you co e up with includes compulsion of others actions

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Just like I will force people to educate their kids.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ICantSpellDawg

Vaccines have inarguably been beneficial to humanity. Nutritional advancements have arguably contributed to the reduction of child mortality to a much greater extent than vaccines, however.

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QE1 nearly died from a disease that has now been eradicated from the wild thanks to vaccination programmes. Said disease is probably the biggest killer in history. And that's just one of a number of lethal diseases that vaccination treats.

Are you trying to convince me that vaccines are a great advancement in medical science. I'm convinced

Are you trying to convince me that it is of the utmost importance to FORCE other peoples children to get vaccinated? No, I do not accept

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Pannonian

QE1 nearly died from a disease that has now been eradicated from the wild thanks to vaccination programmes. Said disease is probably the biggest killer in history. And that's just one of a number of lethal diseases that vaccination treats.

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George Washington as well, IIRC.

Obviously a poorly fed man.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ICantSpellDawg

Are you trying to convince me that vaccines are a great advancement in medical science. I'm convinced

Are you trying to convince me that it is of the utmost importance to FORCE other peoples children to get vaccinated? No, I do not accept

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But somehow, you fully support peoples 'right' to FORCE me not to get vaccinated.

How on earth can other people be given the right to make decisions that will ultimately kill me?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

But somehow, you fully support peoples 'right' to FORCE me not to get vaccinated.

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What? Although you are able to be vaccinated, thus reducing the likelihood that you will not contract disease x - the decision of another not to get vaccinated is the equivalent of FORCING you not to get vaccinated?

My issue with modern political arguments is that they are not really arguments for good ideas - they are arguments for the forcible compulsion of those good ideas on others.

This is exacly why the GOP voters have sent defensive linemen into Congress. We need to ensure that you go nowhere with the ball.

Focus your energy on helpful encouragement and the spread of good ideas through fair play and you will have a supporter.

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Originally Posted by ICantSpellDawg

Are you trying to convince me that it is of the utmost importance to FORCE other peoples children to get vaccinated? No, I do not accept

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Just to put it out there, if your own children ended up getting ill because a strain mutated in a bunch of kids whose parents refused to get them vaccinated, causing them to start sweating with a fever, red-eyes, showing a rash, one of them even showing signs of encephalitis, would you still be holding your position?

After all, this only came about because of those refusing free vaccinations at their school, complete negligence by the parents involved. It would be like opposing compulsory wearing of seat-belts, a similar-style of law in place to protect drivers and passengers.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ICantSpellDawg

What?

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You want to give my parents the right to force me not to get vaccinated.

I would rather give the state the right to force me to get vaccinated.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ICantSpellDawg

Are you trying to convince me that vaccines are a great advancement in medical science. I'm convinced

Are you trying to convince me that it is of the utmost importance to FORCE other peoples children to get vaccinated? No, I do not accept

---

Smallpox was eradicated through mandatory vaccination, including banning the less effective inoculation even where the resident people preferred this to the more unfamiliar vaccination. I wouldn't want to see that running around again, in the name of freedom of choice.

They probably wouldn't, because I would get them vaccinated. I have only ever turned down yellow fever vaccination.

This gets me personally. I go in for a medical procedure every year as I am plagued with many odd diseases (in spite of having received every suggested vaccination anyway). Every year the Dr and his medical students try to convince me to allow them to take non-therapeutic biopsies for "the greater good". I advise that they are free to take all biopsies that are taken for therapeutic or diagnostic purposes which benefit me, the patient, and use it for their study. This is not good enough for them so they don't do that. I have enough diseases that if I consented to every study I would be out of flesh. As they are New Yorkers, it's only a matter of time before my body is to them merely a specimen for the use of the greater good. I'm surprised that they don't already require organ donation. I'm sure that you are for those things as well - you know because of the greater good.

Come back to me when infant mortality rates stop decreasing or morbidity rates start going up. THen we can ramp up the public campaign for vaccinations (hey, that's not a bad idea!, Why don't we try that first before commandeering people's children and threatening parents with a loss of rights over something so dumb.)

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Originally Posted by ICantSpellDawg

I'm surprised that they don't already require organ donation. I'm sure that you are for those things as well - you know because of the greater good.

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On death, yes. It is in my will and I have it noted in my medical records.

When you die, you won't be needing them anymore, and if you expect in life to receive an organ transplant, it would be very hypocritical not to return the same courtesy.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tiaexz

On death, yes. It is in my will and I have it noted in my medical records.

When you die, you won't be needing them anymore, and if you expect in life to receive an organ transplant, it would be very hypocritical not to return the same courtesy.

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Yep, totally sensible and good faith to donate organs at end of life. My suggestion is, yet again, not that it is a bad thing but that the compulsion is wrongheaded. And that's even concerning dead people and their families!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ICantSpellDawg

Come back to me when infant mortality rates stop decreasing or morbidity rates start going up. THen we can ramp up the public campaign for vaccinations (hey, that's not a bad idea!, Why don't we try that first before commandeering people's children and threatening parents with a loss of rights over something so dumb.)

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Yes, let's kill off a few million innocents before we figure out that our original idea was the best solution after all.

What a splendid idea!!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ICantSpellDawg

Yep, totally sensible and good faith to donate organs at end of life. My suggestion is, yet again, not that it is a bad thing but that the compulsion is wrongheaded. And that's even concerning dead people and their families!

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I think it should be 'opt-out' rather than 'opt-in' though. There is a shortage of organs and on many occasions, the wishes of the departed are not known and grieving family can be... very awkward situation. Maybe stretch the same for vaccination too if it not in place as the current situation.

Whilst it is not direct-force that compulsory implies, those who are rather ignorant have the choice made for them for the best interest of the children and all those involved with the decision making.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tiaexz

I think it should be 'opt-out' rather than 'opt-in' though. There is a shortage of organs and on many occasions, the wishes of the departed are not known and grieving family can be... very awkward situation.

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Vastly preferable to the current situation.

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

Vastly preferable to the current situation.

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Naturally, you would assume people have the best interests at heart, so any regulation is not required at all based on this assumption.

Unfortunately, reality shows that this is not the case.

Whilst I can sympathise with Dawg's position that in an ideal world, such things wouldn't be needed, the logistics and reality argue strongly in favour of having to implement these policies because it isn't an ideal world.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tiaexz

Naturally, you would assume people have the best interests at heart, so any regulation is not required at all based on this assumption.

Unfortunately, reality shows that this is not the case.

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Well, the bureaucracy probably stops a few; I know it's stopped me. I have no clue where to sign up or what to do, to be honest. And I'm quite sure I'm not the only one, though it probably doesn't help that I avoid the doctors office like a plague...

My family knows to chop me up and burn what remains, however.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tiaexz

I think it should be 'opt-out' rather than 'opt-in' though.

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I might not disagree with this. In fact, if you really wanted to you might even do the same thing with vaccinations.

This would not be compulsion - merely direction, with override from families and individuals. Now you're cooking with gas.

People not taking vaccine not only risk themselves, but also put others at risk.

I don't believe it a human right to risk the life of ones kids, nor do I believe it's right to risk others.

I've got a tetanus shot yesterday, stupid parkour...

It is my impression that Europeans do not believe in the free action of individuals - made better by good stewardship. It is a shame.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ICantSpellDawg

It is my impression that Europeans do not believe in the free action of individuals - made better by good stewardship. It is a shame.

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I have made a grand total of zero statements in this thread restricting the free action of individuals.

I have only restricted the individuals ability to force other individuals to adhere to their beliefs.

In other words, I care not for a second if some adult decides not to get vaccinated. I hope they die sooner, rather than later. But someone taking away a child's right to grow up without a zillion life-threatening diseases? No way.



It seems like your focus on governmental tyranny has made you blind to the tyranny coming from elsewhere.



John Stuart Mill argued in On Liberty for the death penalty for parents who did not choose correctly for their children.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

I have made a grand total of zero statements in this thread restricting the free action of individuals.

I have only restricted the individuals ability to force other individuals to adhere to their beliefs.

In other words, I care not for a second if some adult decides not to get vaccinated. I hope they die sooner, rather than later. But someone taking away a child's right to grow up without a zillion life-threatening diseases? No way.



It seems like your focus on governmental tyranny has made you blind to the tyranny coming from elsewhere.

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Surely, adults are at risk of disease. Isn't their failure to inoculate a direct threat to you as well?

Also, you are clearly attempting to force things into peoples bodies irrespective of what they or their guardians say. Do you mean to tell me that if a child is against it then it won't be forced?
If in your brain you have glossed over that part, I would forgive you for it, but don't miss the crux of your own argument.

This website has a reasonable approach, while yours is an unreasonable and heavy handed one, as always.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ICantSpellDawg

Surely, adults are at risk of disease as well. Isn't their failure to inoculate a direct threat to you?

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Sure, and they should get vaccinated as well.

Compulsory should or sensibly should?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ICantSpellDawg

Compulsory should or sensibly should?

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I don't advocate compulsory vaccination of adults. Only their children.

(Excluding international travel, of course)

Countries can require vaccinations as requisite for entry. That's up to them.
No way on the kid compulsion. You are way off on that.

Cannot make it compulsory, it is the parent's decision. CAN make it a requirement for attending government schools unless a majority of the polity in question refuses to sanction such a regulation. Should do so, to encourage any wafflers.

You don't want vaccinations for your children? Find a private school that will accept them or teach them at home.


I agree that not providing vaccinations for your children does not constitute negligence in the sense that leaving them to bake in the backseat of your car or failing to feed them does. However, I believe that NOT taking the vaccination opportunities available is a poor parenting choice and does a disservice to your kidlings.

Infant mortality in the pre-vaccine/pre-Semmelweis era was ghastly.

Both my children have received the full series, including the optional varivax.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh

Cannot make it compulsory, it is the parent's decision.

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Why not? We do so routinely for non-life threatening situations, nobody starts wringing hands about the freedom to make a dishonest choice which the child will be the victim of. Child labour is banned. Minimum education is mandatory. Children may be taken away and placed into care if abuse is discovered.

We do that precisely to limit the damage that may be wrought by irresponsible, incompetent or uncaring parents.

We go on to do much the same to competent adults.

I will most likely have my children vaccinated with the full series as well. I also have no intention of having them go to public school, which will be difficult.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ICantSpellDawg

It is my impression that Europeans do not believe in the free action of individuals - made better by good stewardship. It is a shame.

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It is my impression that some USAnians take free will so far that it includes "Free will to be absolutely ******* uneducated and somewhat retarded"...

You should never be allowed to risk your children, nor others.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV

It is my impression that some USAnians take free will so far that it includes "Free will to be absolutely ******* uneducated and somewhat retarded"...

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I most certainly believe that this is the case.

http://reason.com/blog/2014/06/27/ki...pants-forced-t

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ICantSpellDawg

I most certainly believe that this is the case.

http://reason.com/blog/2014/06/27/ki...pants-forced-t

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I'm honestly lost for words... That's just wrong on so many levels...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ICantSpellDawg

Countries can require vaccinations as requisite for entry. That's up to them.
No way on the kid compulsion. You are way off on that.

---

So you do not consider the child an individual? 'Individuals choice' covers more individuals than just your own person?

Where is the logic in that?

I can waive the mandatory organ donation because, even though I consider them ridiculous, the arguments of sacred bodies and such religious stuff is of some merit. The arguments against vaccination? Complete bollox and not worthy of a second of consideration.

It is not your right to make retarded decisions on behalf of your children. Sorry.

Having children is a pretty retarded decision made on behalf of your kids for most people.
I don't hold a high bar for other parents. As long as they are feeding them and not abusing them beyond a certain minimal extent, fair play.

What are you going to do, take a kid away from a half-way decent parent who refuses the vaccine and can't afford private school, and put them into a foster home? That'll sure fix the problem.


You guys have made the most compelling argument why I might not want to get kids vaccinated, which I didn't think was possible because it is pretty open and shut.
Drug laws make me want drugs so bad, Gun laws make me want guns so bad. I freaking despise laws and coercion. I have instinctively always told people to take a flying leap when they express any bullshit authority over me. You guys are idiots. Maybe some people respect authority, but I doubt that those are the people you are trying to force into doing things.

I still likely will, not because of what you think or the law thinks, but because of what I think - and smart people who are capable of believing in something and evangelizing it without forcing it on others.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ICantSpellDawg

Come back to me when infant mortality rates stop decreasing or morbidity rates start going up. THen we can ramp up the public campaign for vaccinations (hey, that's not a bad idea!, Why don't we try that first before commandeering people's children and threatening parents with a loss of rights over something so dumb.)

---

There are epidemics showing up in the US among the unvaccinated population today. Still small numbers, but increasing. So it's an actual problem nowadays.

I didn't get the whooping cough vaccine as a child, and sure enough I got whooping cough. Same is true for my youngest brother.

Didn't get the meningitis vaccine either but hopefully I will be spared from meningitis.

I don't honestly know about how legitimate the concerns about any risks are, but I'm pretty paranoid when it comes to taking medication myself and I don't think this is something that should be forced upon children and their parents.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rhyfelwyr

I didn't get the whooping cough vaccine as a child, and sure enough I got whooping cough. Same is true for my youngest brother.

Didn't get the meningitis vaccine either but hopefully I will be spared from meningitis.

I don't honestly know about how legitimate the concerns about any risks are, but I'm pretty paranoid when it comes to taking medication myself and I don't think this is something that should be forced upon children and their parents.

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If you didn't just spend 3 days dismissing evolution as science, this post would have been great.
These people are effectively saying that parents who would allow you to run a greater risk of whooping cough than take the vaccine are bad parents and should have their kids taken away if they feel strongly enough about it.

Let's face it, if they don't let it happen and they don't have the money for homeschooling or private school (like most people), their kid is not allowed to go to school. If their kid doesn't go to school, CPS takes them and the parents can be punished legally. This is the creepy and serious side of the things that people push for frivolously when they, time and time again call for compulsion. Take a concern that is popular right now in the media, get afraid, demand action by force to overcome opposition that they don't understand or accept. It is like a broken record of dumb and abusive policy. Many diseases have been wiped nearly off of the face of the earth by better nutrition, better sanitation, and vaccination. This has happened not through compulsion, but through public campaigns to inform people of the risk of disease vs the risk of vaccination. For most of the common vaccinations and most people, the risk to not having them is overwhelmingly greater than the risk of doing so - if you cant sell that idea, maybe the person that you are angry at isn't the moron in the room.

Ryf, will you get your kid the whooping flight vaccine knowing that they will likely contract the illness if you don't?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ICantSpellDawg

What are you going to do, take a kid away from a half-way decent parent who refuses the vaccine and can't afford private school, and put them into a foster home? That'll sure fix the problem.

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As I have said already: do what we do to the cooky christian sect who refuses blood transfusion. Give temporary custody to the state, inject vaccines, give kids back. Kid vaccinated, no harm done.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/nation...d9e_story.html

Articles like this would probably would compel people to get certain vaccinations. I would recommend publishing it in NY Times and translating it Into to Spanish and integrating it into the dumbest telenovela with the grossest sausage-in-spandex actresses you can find. The rates will boost without compulsion.

....because it's mainly hispanics who refuse vaccination...?

In the US? I would say so, without data driven evidence. It tends to be 3 kinds of people, from what I've read - people with reduced access to preventative healthcare, white baptists who think that the world is a couple thousand years old, and white liberals who think that they understand herd immunity and love organic foods.

Based on where these "epidemics" are popping up, the populations are overwhelmingly black and hispanic. The "blame black people for all of the horrible nonsense they are responsible for" bone in my body has been overworked, so I left them out of my bigoted prior post.

I would blame greasy Italians as well, but I can't think of how they might be responsible.

Ah, just remembered that you silly yanks pay for your healthcare, and that this probably extends to vaccination as well...

If ever there was something society should pay for, it's vaccination. The main benefit of vaccinations are to society, not the individual. Thus, society should pay.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

Ah, just remembered that you silly yanks pay for your healthcare, and that this probably extends to vaccination as well...

If ever there was something society should pay for, it's vaccination. The main benefit of vaccinations are to society, not the individual. Thus, society should pay.

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Correct. The main benefit of vaccination is to society. And yet, all known and unknown risks are born by individuals. So it is probably sensible and just to have a more conscientious and constructive argument than "you must".

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ICantSpellDawg

Correct. The main benefit of vaccination is to society. And yet, all known and unknown risks are born by individuals. So it is probably sensible and just to have a more conscientious and constructive argument than "you must".

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Since there is no credible counter-argument, I see no reason to bother coming up with an argument in favour.

In fact, engaging with them can actually validate their concerns.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

Since there is no credible counter-argument, I see no reason to bother coming up with an argument in favour.

In fact, engaging with them can actually validate their concerns.

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Classic leftist. "Close off debate - enact by force else we run the risk of potentially legitimate/illegitimate dialogue - the individual is subordinate to the State"

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ICantSpellDawg

Classic leftist. "Close off debate - enact by force else we run the risk of potentially legitimate/illegitimate dialogue - the individual is subordinate to the State"

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I'm not going to debate holocaust denial. I'm not going to debate NWO conspiracies. I'm not going to debate homeopathy. I'm not going to debate anti-vaccination.

I will of course make fun of the loonies.

EDIT: This is, of course, in reference to their children, not the adults. The children should not have to suffer because their parents are idiots, that's a no-go. I can happily spread propaganda to convince the adults as well.

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

I'm not going to debate holocaust denial. I'm not going to debate NWO conspiracies. I'm not going to debate homeopathy. I'm not going to debate anti-vaccination.

I will of course make fun of the loonies.

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Are you equating holocaust denial with people who prefer not to use vaccines or have things injected into their bodies as a matter of principle? Will you soon force people to eat gm foods because they are not proven to be more harmful than organics, but have the major advantage of not wasting as many land resources? THUS ORGANIC FOODS ARE HARMING THE GREATER GOOD.

It is preference. When nobody around you or that you have ever met contracts the measles, it might not be senseless to forego vaccination. Should we all be vaccinated against yellow fever?

Another vote for mandatory.
At least until the age of 18, and any person engaged in public service and/or employed/residing in a public facility.
The herd is all :whip:

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Originally Posted by HopAlongBunny

Another vote for mandatory.
At least until the age of 18, and any person engaged in public service and/or employed/residing in a public facility.
The herd is all :whip:

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"I vote for others to not have a vote"
I'd say fine, but is it?

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Originally Posted by ICantSpellDawg

Are you equating holocaust denial with people who prefer not to use vaccines or have things injected into their bodies as a matter of principle? Will you soon force people to eat gm foods because they are not proven to be more harmful than organics, but have the major advantage of not wasting as many land resources? THUS ORGANIC FOODS ARE HARMING THE GREATER GOOD

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It's not about their bodies. That's the point. They can make whatever decision they want to their own bodies. I will not have them make those decisions for others.

And yes, I am equating the validity of anti-vaccination arguments with the validity of holocaust denial arguments. The insanity level is the same.

The anti-GMO arguments are mostly the same, but fortunately the government doesn't pay much attention to them and GMO foods doesn't have a lot of restrictions. Organic foods are ridiculous, but on the same level as, say, driving a very fuel-inefficient car.

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

It's not about their bodies. That's the point. They can make whatever decision they want to their own bodies. I will not have them make those decisions for others.

And yes, I am equating the validity of anti-vaccination arguments with the validity of holocaust denial arguments. The insanity level is the same.

The anti-GMO arguments are mostly the same, but fortunately the government doesn't pay much attention to them and GMO foods doesn't have a lot of restrictions. Organic foods are ridiculous, but on the same level as, say, driving a very fuel-inefficient car.

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We will see, people love the idea of compulsion lately. I'd rather lose on this issue than on gun control or something,

With enough caving in the idea of "force other people to do the things that we think are a good idea", my only hope is that one day, things that you like and think are a good idea are banned and the things that you hate compelled. That was a modern curse

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Originally Posted by ICantSpellDawg

We will see, people love the idea of compulsion lately. I'd rather lose on this issue than on gun control or something,

With enough caving in the idea of "force other people to do the things that we think are a good idea", my only hope is that one day, things that you like and think are a good idea are banned and the things that you hate compelled. That was a modern curse

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Compulsion? I am not arguing in favour of compulsion. I am arguing in favour of not allowing people to decide over others. I can see that this is an issue you do not wish to engage with, but I'll try one last time:

Could you explain why a child should have no rights if given stupid parents? Why do you want to take away this individuals right to get vaccinated?

I don't think the state should be able to order people to do stuff... That's a very slippery slope, and we know governments haven't exactly been 100% trustworthy historically speaking.

However, parents should be educated about vaccine.

What says that the state makes better decisions than parents, even stupid ones?

Say there came a vaccine with the unfortunate, and not predicted, side effect that you can't have children... Then it would be pretty good to have those Christian loons around, wouldn't it. To save the human race and all...

I'm not saying vaccines will lead to infertility, I am saying that the state should in no way be able to dictate what goes into your body, or your childrens bodies.

EDUCATION is the answer, not forceful measures.

But by all means, disallow unvaccinated kids to go to public schools, I have no problems with that. Heck, unvaccinated kids are probably those with christian loons as parents, and as teacher I am more than happy to not have to deal with them on a professional basis. :sweatdrop:

You know if a vaccine could hide symptoms of infertility from the exhaustive testing phases health systems conduct, which are specifically designed to detect such side effects, I think extinction would be inevitable regardless of abstainers. I say this only because the existence of such an insidious chemical would stand as proof that god is not only real but actively trying to kill us in the most inefficient yet ironic manner possible.

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Originally Posted by Greyblades

You know if a vaccine could hide symptoms of infertility from the exhaustive testing phases each nations health systems conduct, that specifically designed to detect such side effects, I think extinction would be inevitable regardless of abstainers. I say this only because the existence of such an insidious chemical would stand as proof that god is both real and actively trying to kill us.

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Hey, if God can create plenty of species just to lure us...

Anyway, vaccines don't get tested over, say, 10 years... Right? So a vaccine leading to infertility later on might go under the radar.

Or if it had a negative impact on... Whatever (brain functions)?

The state has done mistakes before, they will do it again, people are more than in their right to say NO to what the state wants them to do. You know, the state should serve the population, the population shouldnt serve the state and all that.

I take my vaccines, and I'd be glad to get rid of overly christian people at work... so for me it's a win-win.

It's about the principle, the state should never be able to force things on people.

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

Compulsion? I am not arguing in favour of compulsion. I am arguing in favour of not allowing people to decide over others. I can see that this is an issue you do not wish to engage with, but I'll try one last time:

Could you explain why a child should have no rights if given stupid parents? Why do you want to take away this individuals right to get vaccinated?

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Not at all, if the child wished over the objections of the parents to inoculation then by all means. The law could absolutely say that, no qualms.

I understand what you are arguing, but I am arguing that the parents have right of refusal. You are saying that neither the parent or child has the choice, you are clearly arguing for compulsion.

Let's be frank about where we are, as the human race.

We think spacecraft is strapping several tons of explosives on ones back, to jump to... The moon. That's what we know about the universe.

We think handling our bodys waste is done by using paper made of trees to smear up the worst of the... You know what.

We still have no answer to several life threatening or terminal diseases, and we only just now start to get a very vague grasp of what the human body and brain really is.


Should I in this era trust the state to enforce random things on me? Naaaaaah... They are elected by the majority... I find the average person extremely stupid, and let's remember that 50% are even more stupid than that.

I agree vaccinations should be opt-out, not opt-in, though.

I also believe the state should be able to dictate what goes for public schools, as it's what the majority wants.

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Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV

Let's be frank about where we are, as the human race.

We think spacecraft is strapping several tons of explosives on ones back, to jump to... The moon. That's what we know about the universe.

We think handling our bodys waste is done by using paper made of trees to smear up the worst of the... You know what.

We still have no answer to several life threatening or terminal diseases, and we only just now start to get a very vague grasp of what the human body and brain really is.


Should I in this era trust the state to enforce random things on me? Naaaaaah... They are elected by the majority... I find the average person extremely stupid, and let's remember that 50% are even more stupid than that.

I agree vaccinations should be opt-out, not opt-in, though.

I also believe the state should be able to dictate what goes for public schools, as it's what the majority wants.

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Good heavens, are you posting while sober?!? You're making reasonable sense and I agree.

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Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh

Good heavens, are you posting while sober?!? You're making reasonable sense and I agree.

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I'm working on correcting it... :barrel: