Printable View
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-12-1...ration/5967232
"ABC News is following a siege in Sydney's CBD in which a number of people have been taken hostage.
At least three people can be seen through the windows of a cafe in Martin Place with their hands raised.
An Islamic flag has also been seen hanging in the window of the Lindt Chocolat Cafe.
Follow our blog for live updates throughout the day."
Sorry for those poor people.
I hope this ends well. Would be a nice change of pace.
I hope everything will turn out ok
Seems like on lone man... Why don't you just snipe him, or does he have some sort of dead-mans trigger?
There are supossedly bombs spread out over multiple locations, and he wants to talk to the MP only. I think this is just an idiot and that nobody is going to get hurt.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV
Because those anti-terrorism police units/SWAT really have no idea what they are doing and are not trained for these situations.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV
They really need someone like you who has read a press article or two and can judge the situation much better than they can.
Geez, I was just asking why he isn't simply taken out... No need to be snotty with me :pQuote:
Originally Posted by Husar
There arer two types of countries when it comes to policing:Quote:
Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV
1) those where the police are meant to save themselves and the government by using as much force as possible ASAP and then not ask too many questions
2) those where the police and the government think it is their primary job to save all lives
There are absolutely no other countries except the ones which are somewhere in between or a bit more extreme.
Either way it seems like the people responsible don't just want to shoot the guy if it is not necessary. And the best way to save the hostages may not be to send more bullets into their vicinity at high speeds.
Well, people threatening to kill loads of other people, and who has already started on the path actively, is IMHO up for kill.Quote:
Originally Posted by Husar
Sure the police MIGHT be able to keep everyone alive, the terrorist included. OR they misread the situation and a ****load of innocents get killed.
I for one think it's better to be safe than sorry, and would personally pull the trigger, had I been there.
That's why I asked about the dead-mans trigger... That would of course change the tactical situation.
Looks like it is over.
No reports of any deaths at this point.
Police went in, a lot of noise can see footage of them throwing in flash bang grenades (or variants).
I just got a newsflash-thingie on my phone that said two people died when they stormed the cafe.
No news from the reporters on the live feed.
http://ktla.com/2014/12/15/gunman-ho...r-tony-abbott/
Whether that is reliable I do not know of course. Given that they reported a lot of gunfire, it seems possible though, if there was a shootout instead of a quick takedown.Quote:
ABC reported that two people were dead and three were in serious condition.
Seven people had been taken out of the Sydney cafe on stretchers, and five of them appeared to be receiving treatment immediately, the broadcaster reported.
The fate of the gunman, identified by an official with direct knowledge of the situation as Man Haron Monis, was unknown. It was also unknown if any police were injured.
So how does a snipe look now, given your information of 2 people dead is correct? :inquisitive:Quote:
Originally Posted by Husar
:no:
http://www.abc.net.au/news/abcnews24/
No confirmation of any deaths.
All the hostages were removed by paramedics onto stretchers,
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-12-1...gunman/5969162
"Heavily armed police have stormed a cafe in central Sydney, ending a siege where a gunman had been holding hostages at bay since Monday morning.
Loud explosions and yelling could be heard from outside the Lindt Chocolat Cafe in Sydney's Martin Place at about 2:00am (AEDT).
Dozens of paramedic crews could also be seen at the scene with stretchers.
Minutes earlier, several more hostages had emerged from the cafe.
A gunman, identified by police as Iranian cleric Man Haron Monis, took an unknown number of people hostage at the cafe shortly before 10:00am (AEDT) on Monday.
More to come."
I think some of the media outlets are going for ratings not facts.
Also 3 gravely wounded according to Swedish media (+ the 2 dead, one should be the perp).
A bit of wind from the wrong direction, a bent window through which the light doesn't pass in a straight line or a sudden movement the moment you pull the trigger and you have one headless hostage and an incredibly enraged hostage taker. A hidden accomplice among the hostages and you have a whole lot of dead people. No, still doesn't look good as long as he is not likely to kill anyone immediately.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV
Once we can beam people, these situations will be easy to resolve. ~;)
Seriously, what you write is just stupid.Quote:
Originally Posted by Husar
You might aswell go up to the Islamic terrorist and try to put a flower in his gun.
I am a military trained marksman, and I can assure you that a kill-shot could have easily been made, without risking the hostages (REALLY, you think a trained sniper would pull if there was a risk!!?? :inquisitive: )
You, my dear sir, seem blinded by your ideology.
I of course full heartedly agree that the police should strive for a result where everyone get out alive, perpetrator included.
However, when you deal with obvious islamist fanatics, in a hostage situation, there is only one sound answer.
Personally, I would have made the shot.
Recent history seems to prove me right.
Seriously, read up on modern warfare and weapon technology + modern sniper training.Quote:
A bit of wind from the wrong direction, a bent window through which the light doesn't pass in a straight line or a sudden movement the moment you pull the trigger and you have one headless hostage and an incredibly enraged hostage taker
A bit of wind or a bent window is calculated for when making the shot.
And the parameters are easily handled by a trained marksman.
It's not like you make a killshot in a hostage situation if you are 80% sure it will work.
My bet is that the snipers were under order not to act, AS USUAL.
Mainly because of people like you.
I know, I'm the problem.
I'm sorry for the people I hurt in this.
No wait, you're the hawkish, blodthirsty military-trained killer who wants to kill a confused old man because his rifle is too short and he didn't get to penetrate anyone with it in a long time and that makes him feel inadequate!!!111
So what if the guy stayed away from windows? Do you shoot through the hostages standing in the windows to hit him? What if the bullet shatters the windows, sending millions of deadly splinters ricocheting through the room before it hits a gas pipe and the whole building explodes?
Officially confirmed two dead hostages plus the criminal.
Official cause of death to be confirmed by the coroner.
Lots of positive backlash started yesterday against the Muslim community which has seen a large reach out from all the rest of society at all levels to stand together. From a large interfaith meeting last night to using social media for positive bridge building is #illridewithyou.
=][=
On Sunday I was at Martin Place to see the Christmass tree there with my children, then we walked up Pitt St to see the Lego Xmas tree and then to the David Jones display. Martin Place is an important almost iconic area within the Sydney CBD. Most of you and would have seen it without even knowing so... The Matrix women in red scene was filmed in Martin Place.
My best wishes go out to the friends and family of all the hostages involved in this attack and in particular to the ones of the two dead hostages.
Condoleances Australia
Yes, I am the horribly evil military trained killer.Quote:
Originally Posted by Husar
Under my watch we'd however probably have 1 perp dead with 0 innocents killed and 0 innocents injured. THE HORROR!!
Is that bloodthirsty and hawkish :inquisitive:
If he stayed away from windows (which I heard he didnt at times), you still have options. They had plenty of time to get professional people and gear in place.
Would you shoot through the hostages? Now that question from you is just retarded. The answer is: No.
Your last doomsday scenario with splinters and gas pipes are just ignant. You're on level with Frags when it comes to Hollywood scenarios here.
My thoughts go out to the people killed and injured.
PS: I am sure there is at least one TOG operative who is right now cursing his superiors and general protocol.
Kadagar:
Aussies, in general, are a pretty competent lot. If they had had a clear shot, it would have been taken and the issue resolved. The visible hostages were, of course, positioned to prevent just such a shot.
Once they decided on dynamic entry as opposed to waiting him out, it became a horrific sort of race. Fortunately, they put the alleged (I know, but proprieties should be observed) hostage taker down and out before too many died. Sadly, even one is too many on other levels. Sad day.
AFAIK they entered when one of the hostages tried to grapple the "suspects" shotgun...Quote:
Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh
Judging by the video here they seemed to, well, be totally unprepared...
Basically "throw in some guys and some shock grenades and hope for the best". The fact that one of the police got injured speaks in my favour.
I'm SO not impressed how this was handled tactically.
With todays technique I would be utterly surprised if they didn't get a clear shot because of operational reasons. I think they had their hands tied.
Well, that or the Aussie tactical police suck. Judging from the video that might well be the case.
*weren't they trained by SAS historically and now last before the Olympics!?*
Maybe it was also not the best idea of that guy to try and wrestle the "suspect"?
The result certainly isn't in his favor given that he is dead. What's really sad is that another woman died and several people got injured.
I'm glad it's over for the rest, but a better outcome would have been preferable.
A for effort...Quote:
Originally Posted by Husar
But yeah, you really shouldn't dive in like that unless you are pretty damn sure you have a VERY good success rate.
Still zero points for the police though... They MUST have had video and sound going already, and operatives in shifts to stay alert and ready :shrug:
This really was a messed up operation by all standards.
Mike Baird NSW Premier, just went out to the press and talked about "an attack that none of us could have foreseen"...
Yeah, Islamic terrorism is unforeseeable when you let muslims dwell :wall:
Good morning Australia, this is your wake up call.
And how do video and sound save a guy who is wrestling someone with a shotgun? I assume that situation is what made them go in in the first place, but with no more info on the situation it's hard to say whether they could have done better at that point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV
You get an A for pretending to know better though.
You may like this twitter account: https://twitter.com/rupertmurdochQuote:
Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV
Quote:
AUST gets wake-call with Sydney terror. Only Daily Telegraph caught the bloody outcome at 2.00 am. Congrats.
Every day I try to remember that for every cheney, murdoch and koch brother there are at least 100 people of thier power and influence who are not complete amoral psychopaths.
Some days are easier than others.
The structure of the particular cafe the entranceway is very short before it comes to a wall, with the rest of the cafe extending beyond and behind that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV
Hus:
Please don't quote Murdoch, the man is only tweeting to peddle his fear- and hate-mongering bile.
Yes let's use one individual to characterize an entire broad faith. Might as well blame all Abrahmic religions if you are going to use such a broad brush.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV
I might also not like that Twitter account. Now you are just grasping for ANYTHING to save face.Quote:
Originally Posted by Husar
Regardless, I don't care about Twitter.
To explain tactics to you: No, video and sound would not save the guy wrestling with the "suspect".
Video and sound WOULD however alert the operational commander to at once deploy a tactical plan made for that situation (or like).
YES that situation was what made them go in, and HELL YES they could have done better. I say it again, tactically this was an embarrassment. They most obviously were not prepared.
There are techs to work around that. Also tactics.Quote:
Originally Posted by naut
I state it again, the operatives must either have been incompetent OR have had their hands tied from above. I would put my money on the latter.
Jews get 72 virgins if they blow themselves up?Quote:
Originally Posted by Papewaio
Admittedly all Abrahamic religions are :dizzy2: but some have some couple of hundred years head start when it comes to acting civilized at least.
The Troubles in Ireland was pretty recent. So I say ban all religion. We can start in Australia by removing the $250 million dollars spent by the federal government to put religious councillors (no non religious ones allowed). Should help repair the budget deficit too.
2 million Muslims live in the United States. Fewer than 100 have been arrested for actions with terrorists/trying to join a jihadi group. While a few US Muslims have been involved in deadly terrorist incidents such as the Ft. Hood mass shooting, the combined number of deaths engendered by US Muslims falls well short of the Nichols/McVey massacre in Oklahoma City -- and they were not affiliated with Islam in any fashion whatsoever.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV
ALL countries would do well, within limitations imposed by the maintenance of personal liberties, to take measures against domestic terrorism. A Muslim population may be somewhat more prone to radicalization than some other sub-groups (statistically, per capita), but that is by no means the only source of problems.
It is by no means the only source of the problem.Quote:
Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh
It is sure as hell a source of the problem though.
Disenfranchisement is a key part of the problem.
Risenf
Hopefully things like this "illridewithyou" meme will stop the usual anti-Islamic populism from stirring up in response to this.
It has been a strange one. It feels more like an American lone wolf-style shoot up than the sort of Islamic terrorism we are familiar with.
Yeah I don't think there is a greater picture here either, just someone who is mentally ill.