Now, these are not terrorists, right? Just your average muslim refugees...

And apparently that's enough. The sick cult known as islam strikes again.

Women are thrown out as well.

There is only one thing that has nothing to do with it

http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/...63/032/124.gif

Did he call them terrorists? This happens all the time, christians and women get au revoired at sea. Never noticed that only men arive. This has to stop anyway, 400 people drowned the day before yesterday, yesterday people probably drowned as well as it happens daily. They should put counters on the North-African coast to show how many people died getting to Europe, the mediteranian-sea is a graveyard.

Quote:

---

Did he call them terrorists? This happens all the time, christians and women get au revoired at sea. Never noticed that only men arive. This has to stop anyway, 400 people drowned the day before yesterday, yesterday people probably drowned as well as it happens daily. They should put counters on the North-African coast to show how many people died getting to Europe, the mediteranian-sea is a graveyard.

---

hmm...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by thread title

Default Re: Now, these are not terrorists, right? Just your average muslim refugees...

---

http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/...89/118/930.gif

They are just your ordinary muslim refugees. This happens all the time, it's what we haul in.

Christians *splash*
Women *splasn*

Gutmensch *welcome!*

I assume the idea is that Europe should bomb these boats while they're at sea?

All I see is sarcastic bitching but no solution. Meanwhile the left is bitching about how these refugees are often also killed at sea by the authorities, kept in gulags on arrival and mostly sent back anyway. In that little spanish enclave the border guards constantly violate EU laws by redefining where the border actually is and sending people back to the other side after beating them up even if they made it over all three fences. Oh and spain pays the Morroccan police to swipe through the refugee camps, destroy their tents and food and also beat them up and send them to gulags when they inevitably try to get to the fence anyway.

So if we're too lax I assume that you want us to blow up the boats at sea with all the christians and muslims and buddhists and their children on board and then post the pictures along the African coast line. That will surely stop the evil muslims from entering boats in order to pre-emptively kill the christians.

Or we could build a wall through the mediterranean and all the way up around Ireland and Norway. Make it border on Russia in the arctic and on Russia in the black sea and leave Putin to deal with the immigrants. Then annex Switzerland and throw out all the foreigners such as McDonald's, McKinsey, Ford, Toyota, Pizza Hut, little pizza place on the corner, Walmart and confiscate all their assets for the greater European good. We already have ALDI, VW, Saab, Roland Berger Consulting and SAP, we don't need any foreigners operating here.
I propose we call the European Capital "Germania".

So what is it, bombing, wall or something else? Let your creative juices flow and give me constructive solutions or cry me a river.

Was it because these people were Christians, or because the boat was running out of food and water, and these people were Christians?

In barbarous backwards countries where the majority are Muslim the majority of barbarous acts will be committed by Muslims. Now if you want to discuss why the Muslims are currently barbarous and backwards, that's a different question.

Interesting case developing, a Dutch war-corrospondent is crowdfunding for holding the immigration-industry responsible causing the many deaths, I'll see how that goes. Wilder's party makes the most sense, give humanitarian aid locally and use the development-budget for that without financing the NGO's who's core-business is immigration.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Fragony

Interesting case developing, a Dutch war-corrospondent is crowdfunding for holding the immigration-industry responsible causing the many deaths, I'll see how that goes. Wilder's party makes the most sense, give humanitarian aid locally and use the development-budget for that without financing the NGO's who's core-business is immigration.

---

Do you seriously think the work of local NGOs who help immigrants here is what makes all these people try to come over here?
The development aid we just send over there is usually eaten by corruption and politicians or leads to their farmers going out of business because they cannot compete, thereby increasing the problems of unemployment, inequality and the dream of becoming a rich football player in Europe. It's always easy to say that we should just throw money at the problem while we hide behind a wall, but it doesn't always make the problem go away.

So we're back to bombing the boats?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Fragony

Interesting case developing, a Dutch war-corrospondent is crowdfunding for holding the immigration-industry responsible causing the many deaths, I'll see how that goes. Wilder's party makes the most sense, give humanitarian aid locally and use the development-budget for that without financing the NGO's who's core-business is immigration.

---

or, you can use the budget to make life good in these other countries, then they have no reason to immigrate.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Husar

Or we could build a wall through the mediterranean and all the way up around Ireland and Norway.

---

Just let Putin have his way in Africa and Asia and in a year or two there will be no Muslims out there, but only Russian World supporters. Then you can sanction the hell out of them.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Husar

I propose we call the European Capital "Germania".

---

I would extend it to "GrossGermania".

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Beskar

or, you can use the budget to make life good in these other countries, then they have no reason to immigrate.

---

My maid really tried, came back disilusioned and very very traumatised.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Beskar

or, you can use the budget to make life good in these other countries, then they have no reason to immigrate.

---

I think that's what he meant, but as I said, just throwing money and food at them will probably not achieve that very fast. We need a solution now (instant gratification), so maybe bomb until the wall is built?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gilrandir

I would extend it to "GrossGermania".

---

That's a strange name for a city.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Husar

That's a strange name for a city.

---

No more than Germania.
When my father-in-law served in DDR their familiy had a suitcase which they called GroßGermania - they said that it could house a middle-sized person. Since the capital is gonna be large anyway I thought the name could suit it perfectly.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gilrandir

Just let Putin have his way in Africa and Asia and in a year or two there will be no Muslims out there, but only Russian World supporters. Then you can sanction the hell out of them.

I would extend it to "GrossGermania".

---

Right, because the USSR at its peak walked right over Afghanistan and ate cake doing it.

105 on the boat, 12 thrown overboard, the rest saved themselves by "forming a chain and resisting strongly" and 15 convicted.

So there were either only 15 Muslims on the boat, which is very unlikely, OR, not all Muslims were involved in the hideous act.
As always, lock up the criminals, leave the rest alone.

Raise the education level and reduce poverty, it has nothing to do with religion. During the wars in Yugoslavia, horrible crimes were committed by both Muslims and Christians (of all denominations).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gilrandir

Just let Putin have his way in Africa and Asia and in a year or two there will be no Muslims out there, but only Russian World supporters. Then you can sanction the hell out of them.

I would extend it to "GrossGermania".

---

Can't you leave current situation in Ukraine outside at least one thread? Pretty please...

"Right, because the USSR at its peak walked right over Afghanistan and ate cake doing it." No, it is Gilrandir working on his sense of humour, and his obsession of Putin as Big Bad Wolf, then combine them.

"Raise the education level and reduce poverty, it has nothing to do with religion" What? Cancelling the benefit of the Free Market and the right to plunder 3rd World Countries? Are you MAD? Why do you hate freedom?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Brenus

"Raise the education level and reduce poverty, it has nothing to do with religion" What? Cancelling the benefit of the Free Market and the right to plunder 3rd World Countries? Are you MAD? Why do you hate freedom?

---

Because I'm an eastern European, dictator-loving pinko. What's your excuse?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Papewaio

Right, because the USSR at its peak walked right over Afghanistan and ate cake doing it.

---

It actually did until the US got seriously involved.

"Because I'm an eastern European, dictator-loving pinko. What's your excuse?" I want my T-shirt at 10 p, heir of Gavrilo Princip Monarchist killer anarchist supporter.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Papewaio

Right, because the USSR at its peak walked right over Afghanistan and ate cake doing it.

---

And that's what did the USSR in.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sarmatian

Can't you leave current situation in Ukraine outside at least one thread? Pretty please...

---

Why don't you ask, for instance, Kadagar or Fragony to leave their anti-Muslim rhetoric outside at least one thread? Or is it quod licet jovi, non licet bovi?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Brenus

No, it is Gilrandir working on his sense of humour, and his obsession of Putin as Big Bad Wolf, then combine them.

---

Now I will remember two rules of the forum:
1. No fiction vs real world situation comparisons are allowed.
2. Sense of humor is welcome from the priviledged members only.

So - you want to emulate Kadagar and Fragony? :inquisitive:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Montmorency

So - you want to emulate Kadagar and Fragony? :inquisitive:

---

I want equal treatment.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gilrandir

I want equal treatment.

---

You want people to ask us to ban you?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Husar

You want people to ask us to ban you?

---

For mentioning Putin in my posts? Now I'm not sure his agents aren't at work here.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gilrandir

I want equal treatment.

---

Kadagar and Fragony don't use Muslim rhetoric all the time. Kadagar spends a healthy amount of time voicing his displeasure about USAians and Fragony hates all immigrants equally (along with lefty pinkos) because they be polluting his culture. Like you can pollute a culture in which people wear wooden shoes.

They've also been known to talk about totally different things.

But, most importantly, they tend to speak about their beliefs when it is pertinent to the discussion. So, in the Ukraine thread we talk about Putin, but there's absolutely no reason at all to mention him when we talk about violence between Christian and Muslim African refugees who are trying to smuggle themselves to Italy.

There's absolutely no connection between Putin and Libyan refugees, not even a miniscule, remote one. Don't be a one trick pony.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sarmatian

They've also been known to talk about totally different things.

---

I also talked about books, music, chemtrails, vaccination, Saudi king's death, Iran, shrinks examining pilots, foodstuffs (milk and apples) and other things. So either you are not aware of that or you choose to present me the way it suits your agenda.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sarmatian

But, most importantly, they tend to speak about their beliefs when it is pertinent to the discussion. So, in the Ukraine thread we talk about Putin, but there's absolutely no reason at all to mention him when we talk about violence between Christian and Muslim African refugees who are trying to smuggle themselves to Italy.

There's absolutely no connection between Putin and Libyan refugees, not even a miniscule, remote one. Don't be a one trick pony.

---

Correct. But it is also true that in the Ukraine thread there was a lenghty discussion on language development and acquisition. As well as there was no need for RVG to introduce a pro-Russian rebellion concept in the New Balkan State thread. Yet he did and no one batted an eyelid. Discussions tend to ramify and I see no reason in trying to limit them. Unless it is personal dislike.

"Now I will remember two rules of the forum:
1. No fiction vs real world situation comparisons are allowed.
2. Sense of humor is welcome from the priviledged members only." And why these 2 rules applied in the present intervention? It was not humour?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gilrandir

Sense of humor is welcome from the priviledged members only.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gilrandir

I want equal treatment.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gilrandir

Correct. But it is also true that in the Ukraine thread there was a lenghty discussion on language development and acquisition. As well as there was no need for RVG to introduce a pro-Russian rebellion concept in the New Balkan State thread. Yet he did and no one batted an eyelid. Discussions tend to ramify and I see no reason in trying to limit them. Unless it is personal dislike.

---

Firstly, these are my observations. I have zero influence on what happens here. The fact that I'm a "senior" member only means that my long term contribution has been noted by the Org leadership. It doesn't make me more important than any other member.

Secondly, we're not running a concentration camp here. We're all allowed some leeway but we have to try to stick to topic otherwise it will turn into a reddit-like discussion.

Thirdly, rvg did it once, while you do it much more often. One could say almost all the time.

Most importantly, don't think I dislike you because I don't agree with you. I don't agree with rvg, but I like him (I mean he's of Assyrian descent, is it possible not to like him???). I don't like your posting style because you often try to portray propaganda as facts, while the quality of discussion here is usually much better, and you try to weasel out and you nitpick and take cheap shot too often, but, in my opinion you're improving. It takes a while to get used to the Backroom. I know it's hard not to take some stuff said about your country personally, especially when there's an ongoing crisis, but it is possible. I just think you'd be better off not mentioning Putin, Russia or Ukraine as often. Again, don't presume I speak for the entire forum. This is my personal observation.

I was about to say you should stop discussing a relatively minor issue.
While I generally agree that Gilrandir mentiones Putin a bit often in unrelated discussions, I did find it somewhat funny this time around, that's why I thanked the post.

On second thought, discussing that might be better than going with the original intention of the topic, but that's just my opinion. :creep:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sarmatian

Kadagar and Fragony don't use Muslim rhetoric all the time. Kadagar spends a healthy amount of time voicing his displeasure about USAians and Fragony hates all immigrants equally (along with lefty pinkos) because they be polluting his culture. Like you can pollute a culture in which people wear wooden shoes.

They've also been known to talk about totally different things.

But, most importantly, they tend to speak about their beliefs when it is pertinent to the discussion. So, in the Ukraine thread we talk about Putin, but there's absolutely no reason at all to mention him when we talk about violence between Christian and Muslim African refugees who are trying to smuggle themselves to Italy.

There's absolutely no connection between Putin and Libyan refugees, not even a miniscule, remote one. Don't be a one trick pony.

---

lol I guess I have tell my sometimes girlfriend I hate her, she is a muslima from Iran. She dispisesislam more than me

And me priviliged? Did I suddenly become a senior member? (not at you)

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-32311358

Quote:

---

About 400 migrants are feared drowned after their boat capsized off Libya, survivors have told Save the Children.
The Italian coast guard rescued 144 people from the boat on Monday and launched an air and sea search operation in hopes of saving others.
Hundreds more migrants rescued from boats in the Mediterranean are due to arrive in Sicily during the day.
More than 8,000 migrants have been picked up since Friday, and more boats are heading for the Italian coast.

---

Obviously this is all the fault of the greens, the tree huggers and the fact that our air isn't quite as polluted anymore.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentis...ow-many-deaths

Quote:

---

But equally important is responsibility. In all the rage about migration, one thing is never discussed: what we do to cause it. A report published this week by the International Consortium of Investigative Journalists reveals that the World Bank displaced a staggering 3.4 million people in the last five years. By funding privatisations, land grabs and dams, by backing companies and governments accused of rape, murder and torture, and by putting $50bn into projects graded highest risk for “irreversible and unprecedented” social impacts, the World Bank has massively contributed to the flow of impoverished people across the globe. The single biggest thing we could do to stop migration is to abolish the development mafia: the World Bank, International Monetary Fund, European Investment Bank and European Bank for Reconstruction and Development.

---

So much about throwing money at these countries to "solve the problem". We've thrown money and bombs at Africa for quite a while now and the stream of migrants seems to have increased rather than decreased.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sarmatian

Thirdly, rvg did it once, while you do it much more often. One could say almost all the time.

---

I think it would be fair to supplement it with this

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sarmatian

This is my personal observation.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sarmatian

I don't like your posting style because you often try to portray propaganda as facts, while the quality of discussion here is usually much better, and you try to weasel out and you nitpick and take cheap shot too often, but, in my opinion you're improving.

---

I noticed the same crimes you charge me with in others' posts, so what you term as "my style" is not that unique. Once you said that you discuss things here, so I don't see any reasons why any of the tactics described by you can't be used in such discussions and I'm not aware of any limitations imposed by the rules of the forum on using them.
Curiously, you are guilty of some of the abovementioned crimes, like nitpicking or presenting propaganda (i.e. claims made by Putin in the Crimea movie) as facts.
So, on balance, I have as much right as you (since you consider yourself unpriviliged) to say whatever I like as long as I stick to the forum rules.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sarmatian

I know it's hard not to take some stuff said about your country personally, especially when there's an ongoing crisis, but it is possible.

---

From my personal observations, I would say that I take personally stuff about Putin since I'm well aware of the shortcomings of my country and its politicians, but I don't agree with attempts to paint Russian policies white.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sarmatian

We're all allowed some leeway but we have to try to stick to topic otherwise it will turn into a reddit-like discussion.

---

See: you are discussing me and my posting style in the thread meant for discussing other things.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Fragony

lol I guess I have tell my sometimes girlfriend I hate her, she is a muslima from Iran. She dispisesislam more than me

---

Can one be a football fan and despise the game? I think that if one professes some religion one can't despise it. So one of the statements is not true.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gilrandir

Curiously, you are guilty of some of the abovementioned crimes, like nitpicking or presenting propaganda (i.e. claims made by Putin in the Crimea movie) as facts.
So, on balance, I have as much right as you (since you consider yourself unpriviliged) to say whatever I like as long as I stick to the forum rules.

---

You misunderstood me. Facts about the documentary. I was talking about what he said in the documentary and the fact is he said that in the documentary. He may be lying, but he said that. Again, I'm not talking about what happened in reality, but what he said in the documentary. That is a fact and can be easily verified by watching the documentary.

Quote:

---

From my personal observations, I would say that I take personally stuff about Putin since I'm well aware of the shortcomings of my country and its politicians, but I don't agree with attempts to paint Russian policies white.

---

I don't think anyone ever did that (paint Russian policies white), but okay. And I don't believe in shortcomings of a country, only in shortcomings of political leaders.

Quote:

---

See: you are discussing me and my posting style in the thread meant for discussing other things.

---

Exactly. There was absolutely no need to mention Putin in this thread and it derailed the thread.

Also, for future reference, anything I say about politics is my personal opinion. I don't represent this board, my country, my town... Just me. Ok?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gilrandir

I think it would be fair to supplement it with this



I noticed the same crimes you charge me with in others' posts, so what you term as "my style" is not that unique. Once you said that you discuss things here, so I don't see any reasons why any of the tactics described by you can't be used in such discussions and I'm not aware of any limitations imposed by the rules of the forum on using them.
Curiously, you are guilty of some of the abovementioned crimes, like nitpicking or presenting propaganda (i.e. claims made by Putin in the Crimea movie) as facts.
So, on balance, I have as much right as you (since you consider yourself unpriviliged) to say whatever I like as long as I stick to the forum rules.

From my personal observations, I would say that I take personally stuff about Putin since I'm well aware of the shortcomings of my country and its politicians, but I don't agree with attempts to paint Russian policies white.

See: you are discussing me and my posting style in the thread meant for discussing other things.

Can one be a football fan and despise the game? I think that if one professes some religion one can't despise it. So one of the statements is not true.

---

Being born muslim doesn't mean you submit to islam, I am much more mild than her. She doesn't believe in moderate muslims at all.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sarmatian

And I don't believe in shortcomings of a country, only in shortcomings of political leaders.

---

When you visit a country you see things which you may not like (customs, meals, practices). It would be a far-fetched assumption to explain their existence by the political mismanagement of the country's leaders.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Fragony

Being born muslim doesn't mean you submit to islam

---

You can't be born into the religion. It is not nature, it's nurture. One might have been introduced to (and gone through) its rites and practices in one's childhood, yet being of a sober age one may easily change it if one dislikes it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sarmatian

Also, for future reference, anything I say about politics is my personal opinion. I don't represent this board, my country, my town... Just me. Ok?

---

So you want the benefits of citizen-/membership but none of the responsibilities?
We chose you as our official spokesperson in a secret member meeting that you were unfortunately excluded from.
It is therefore your duty to represent us all.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gilrandir

You can't be born into the religion. It is not nature, it's nurture. One might have been introduced to (and gone through) its rites and practices in one's childhood, yet being of a sober age one may easily change it if one dislikes it.

---

Fragologics strike again.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gilrandir

You can't be born into the religion. It is not nature, it's nurture. One might have been introduced to (and gone through) its rites and practices in one's childhood, yet being of a sober age one may easily change it if one dislikes it.

---

Do you know what happens to people that make a point out of abandoning islam? She is a muslim only in name, she hates the islam and I don't blame her.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Fragony

Do you know what happens to people that make a point out of abandoning islam? She is a muslim only in name, she hates the islam and I don't blame her.

---

Then she is as good as abandoned it having done it nice and quiet. Unless she continues to go to mosque and follow the rites.
But I thought in the Nertherlands one was free to choose and lose one's religion.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Husar

So you want the benefits of citizen-/membership but none of the responsibilities?
We chose you as our official spokesperson in a secret member meeting that you were unfortunately excluded from.
It is therefore your duty to represent us all.

---

This "us" starts to appal me somehow.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gilrandir

Then she is as good as abandoned it having done it nice and quiet. Unless she continues to go to mosque and follow the rites.
But I thought in the Nertherlands one was free to choose and lose one's religion.

---

You are but it's a bad idea to make a point out of it, atracts the loonies. She doesn't want to have anything to do with it, but isn't exactly waiting for the consequences that comes with rejecting it alltogether. Abandoning islam is the worst crime you can commit in the eyes of fundamentalists, we gladly don't have a lot of the dangerous kind but it's still not worth the trouble. She's just a cute Iranian girl that was born muslim.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Fragony

You are but it's a bad idea to make a point out of it, atracts the loonies. She doesn't want to have anything to do with it, but isn't exactly waiting for the consequences that comes with rejecting it alltogether. Abandoning islam is the worst crime you can commit in the eyes of fundamentalists, we gladly don't have a lot of the dangerous kind but it's still not worth the trouble. She's just a cute Iranian girl that was born muslim.

---

So she continues to ostensibly practice it, but privately hates it?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gilrandir

So she continues to ostensibly practice it, but privately hates it?

---

She doesn't practise it at all. But making a point out of abandoning it is more trouble than it's worth, she will get harrased, people will come at her parents door and ask them why they don't correct her. Her parents won't do that becausr they feel exactly the same. They know what it is to live in an islamic state and got the hell out of there.

edit: another 700 drowned, actual numbers still unknown but geez, can we please stop holding a carrot. What a nightmare that must have been.

As my views have already been both expressed and defended, with me having nothing to do with it what so ever, I don't really know what to contribute with here...

I dislike Islam :shrug:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Fragony

edit: another 700 drowned, actual numbers still unknown but geez, can we please stop holding a carrot. What a nightmare that must have been.

---

Are those 700 a new number of the 400 I linked earlier or is it 1100 total?
And do you think "not holding a carrot" would stop most of them? A lot of them try to get in illegally if I'm not mistaken. All those people venturing into the US over the fence, through tunnels, in trains, cars and trucks as well as the ones who try to claim the deadly fence into Spanish territory despite the illegality of their act do not seem to care much about the actual immigration policies of European countries.
Or do you mean we should burn Europe down and destroy our industry because that is what attracts them?

No this is a new accident, horrifying.And what makes you assume I am so cold-hearted, I am against illegal immigration and the NGO's that have blood on their hands.

edit, numbers aren't actually comfiirmed by the way, 700 is a rough estimate

Well, at least we can rest easy knowing that Libya is a democracy now and that everything was worth it.

What is even the point of the Islam bashing? There are loonies in every religion. Christians and Buddhists have their own loonies and thugs although they're fewer in number. Even Hindus have loonies. You just have to look at some of the statements these people have been making here ever since BJP came into power in India. Retarded Hindu hardliners crawling out from every nook and cranny, forcing people whose farthers and forefather might've converted to Islam to convert back to Hinduism. Making statements like, the Chritians and Muslims who don't undergo birth control operations shouldn't have the vote...It's just stupid.
I've said it before and I'll say it again, even if a small percentage of the practicing population of a certain religion is not loony, it means there's scope in that religion for it to be interpreted in a moderate manner that does not cause discomfort to others. And till that scope exists, bashing that religion is more counter productive than anything else.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by rajpoot

What is even the point of the Islam bashing? There are loonies in every religion. Christians and Buddhists have their own loonies and thugs although they're fewer in number. Even Hindus have loonies. You just have to look at some of the statements these people have been making here ever since BJP came into power in India. Retarded Hindu hardliners crawling out from every nook and cranny, forcing people whose farthers and forefather might've converted to Islam to convert back to Hinduism. Making statements like, the Chritians and Muslims who don't undergo birth control operations shouldn't have the vote...It's just stupid.
I've said it before and I'll say it again, even if a small percentage of the practicing population of a certain religion is not loony, it means there's scope in that religion for it to be interpreted in a moderate manner that does not cause discomfort to others. And till that scope exists, bashing that religion is more counter productive than anything else.

---

You are right that all religions have loonies, of course.

It's just that Islam seem to have SO DAMN WAY MORE OF THEM!!!!!!!

See, that is the problem. Buddhism is about 1/3rd the size of Islam... Yet it's not like 1/3 of the horrible and gruesome international terrorist acts we hear of are made by buddhists. Right?

And that IS the problem. All religions are NOT the same, and Islam just happened to be founded by a desert living tribal pedophile with a god complex.

Several hundreds of years later we still see the effects of this idiot.

"And till that scope exists, bashing that religion is more counter productive than anything else." Because to keep it down (the really nasty aspects I mean, as Gender Discrimination, Racist and call to murder others) did work did it?

So what would be "productive" if your view?ignoring the facts that our ally the Saudis chop hand off to robbers, kill the gays, lashes opponents, discriminate women in all aspects of life, and have no others religions allowed on their soil?

Yes, there are loonies in all religions, because Religions attract loonies like honey bees. So, let's apply the common law, and all books calling for racism, discrimination, violence should be ban, and all organisations supporting these calls should be make illegal. Ooops, no more religions, what a shame...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Fragony

No this is a new accident, horrifying.And what makes you assume I am so cold-hearted, I am against illegal immigration and the NGO's that have blood on their hands.

---

I didn't say you're cold-hearted, I'm saying your point that NGOs are solely responsible for this is complete rubbish. Immigrants aren't attracted by hippies who take care of them, they are attracted by peace and prosperity. So unless we become poor or make Putin nuke our continent they will continue to come here even if we burn all our hippies at the stakes. We have plenty of capitalists who have done much more to make these people come here than any NGOs ever could by the way. I'm not saying NGOs are blameless, some of them do cause harm over there, but you always put the blame solely on them and that's just rubbish.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV

See, that is the problem. Buddhism is about 1/3rd the size of Islam... Yet it's not like 1/3 of the horrible and gruesome international terrorist acts we hear of are made by buddhists. Right?

---

Well, we didn't just place a nation of a different kind of religious hardliners and terrorists in the middle of buddhist territory either. And then what we "hear of" is a very good way to say it because all those drone strikes and military strikes christians and others perform all the time don't get the headlines but when an islamist kills a dozen journalists it's all over the news for weeks. If every wedding that Obama bombed had been in the news for weeks you might think christians are the biggest murderers by now. Unless you're one of those who think Obama is secretly a muslim anyway. ~;)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Husar

I didn't say you're cold-hearted, I'm saying your point that NGOs are solely responsible for this is complete rubbish. Immigrants aren't attracted by hippies who take care of them, they are attracted by peace and prosperity. So unless we become poor or make Putin nuke our continent they will continue to come here even if we burn all our hippies at the stakes. We have plenty of capitalists who have done much more to make these people come here than any NGOs ever could by the way. I'm not saying NGOs are blameless, some of them do cause harm over there, but you always put the blame solely on them and that's just rubbish.



Well, we didn't just place a nation of a different kind of religious hardliners and terrorists in the middle of buddhist territory either. And then what we "hear of" is a very good way to say it because all those drone strikes and military strikes christians and others perform all the time don't get the headlines but when an islamist kills a dozen journalists it's all over the news for weeks. If every wedding that Obama bombed had been in the news for weeks you might think christians are the biggest murderers by now. Unless you're one of those who think Obama is secretly a muslim anyway. ~;)

---

Oh Husar :no:

* I totally acknowledge that the West agreeing to make the Jewish claim on Israel a reality was ill advised, probably by jews.

* That however has nothing to do with why Muslims can't behave on an international scene.

* You have to separate national warfare from terrorism... I am NOT saying national warfare can't **** up, just look at the last US wars. What I mean is that we at national warfare at least have someone responsible...

And yes, I leave rogue nations like the US out of the last argument, because of obvious reasons (like not signing the international laws of warfare like the rest of the grown ups did).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV

Oh Husar :no:

* I totally acknowledge that the West agreeing to make the Jewish claim on Israel a reality was ill advised, probably by jews.

* That however has nothing to do with why Muslims can't behave on an international scene.

* You have to separate national warfare from terrorism... I am NOT saying national warfare can't **** up, just look at the last US wars. What I mean is that we at national warfare at least have someone responsible...

And yes, I leave rogue nations like the US out of the last argument, because of obvious reasons (like not signing the international laws of warfare like the rest of the grown ups did).

---

Come on, I'm sure if you really try you can come up with a somewhat reasonable response.

Let me help you out with the following question: What do you think constitutes "behaving on an international scene"?
Would you consider spilling oil all over other peoples' countries well-behaved?
https://www.amnesty.org/en/articles/...t-niger-delta/

Quote:

---

Royal Dutch Shell and the Italian multinational oil giant ENI have admitted to more than 550 oil spills in the Niger Delta last year, according to an Amnesty International analysis of the companies’ latest figures. By contrast, on average, there were only 10 spills a year across the whole of Europe between 1971 and 2011.

Shell reported 204 Niger Delta spills in 2014 while ENI, which operates in a smaller area, reported a staggering 349 spills.

“These figures are seriously alarming. ENI has clearly lost control over its operations in the Niger Delta. And despite all its promises, Shell has made no progress on tackling oil spills,” said Audrey Gaughran, Amnesty International’s Global Issues Director.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Husar

Come on, I'm sure if you really try you can come up with a somewhat reasonable response.

Let me help you out with the following question: What do you think constitutes "behaving on an international scene"?
Would you consider spilling oil all over other peoples' countries well-behaved?
https://www.amnesty.org/en/articles/...t-niger-delta/

---

Spilling oil is very rude and should of course be prosecuted.

However, WHAT has that to do with super powers blowing people up mainly because they can, or terrorists who blow people up because their tribal sand people book say so?

Oh Husar, you are really grasping at straws here, aren't you? You SERIOUSLY think you somehow "won" the debate by completely shifting the focus to oil spills, instead of staying on the topic that is - Muslims sure seem to have a habit of terrorism.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV

Oh Husar, you are really grasping at straws here, aren't you? You SERIOUSLY think you somehow "won" the debate by completely shifting the focus to oil spills, instead of staying on the topic that is - Muslims sure seem to have a habit of terrorism.

---

Where's the terrorism in throwing people off a refugee boat in the middle of nowhere?
Who is grasping at straws here?
It's murder and they're being prosecuted, they didn't even have any weapons and failed once the others united against them. The extrapolation from a few extremists to all muslims is just stupid. If I were to find all the murder cases of New York (328 in 2014!) and claim that "New Yorkers sure have a habit of murder" it would be just as stupid.

Again the all thingie. Not all, a lot. Kads has never said all, neither have I ever done so. People who look away from a problem, islamapoligists, are part of the problem. Islam isn't just a religion, it's submission. It doesn't mean all muslims submit to islam. Most muslims only care about what's for dinner, you aren't doing them a favour, they are terrified of extremists.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Fragony

Again the all thingie. Not all, a lot. Kads has never said all, neither have I ever done so. People who look away from a problem, islamapoligists, are part of the problem. Islam isn't just a religion, it's submission. It doesn't mean all muslims submit to islam. Most muslims only care about what's for dinner, you aren't doing them a favour, they are terrified of extremists.

---

Then maybe he should say "Some muslims sure have a habit of terrorism." It's not my fault if he or you fail to express yourselves clearly. I also wasn't talking about you in case you didn't notice it, are you two a holy duality now?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Husar

Then maybe he should say "Some muslims sure have a habit of terrorism." It's not my fault if he or you fail to express yourselves clearly. I also wasn't talking about you in case you didn't notice it, are you two a holy duality now?

---

I am pretty sure Kads and me agree on some things. And yeah it's your fault if you read 'all' when it says 'a lot' and draw conclusions.
Kads is just being reasonable, I don't understand how you can miss that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Fragony

I am pretty sure Kads and me agree on some things. And yeah it's your fault if you read 'all' when it says 'a lot' and draw conclusions.
Kads is just being reasonable, I don't understand how you can miss that.

---

Now you may be the one with reading issues, it only says "Muslims sure seem to have a habit of terrorism.", there is no "a lot" and no "all" but without a modifier "all" is usually implied. I didn't miss anything, I went with the normal interpretation of what he said and it's no secret that he wants them all gone from his country unless he has suddenly started to use some weird interpretation of the word "islam" like you do.

Again, I won't take any responsibility if you people fail at communicating your point. If you use a different interpretation of a word than 7 billion other people, then it is your responsibility to explain/define it and not mine to guess what you may mean.
To me muslims are people who follow the religion of islam with a wide variety of interpretations and islamists or islamic terrorists are the muslims who use a very violent/strict interpretation of islam and try to blow us up in some cases. This interpretation is mostly anologous to the one we use for christians, where christian fundamentalists are the ones who interprete the bible very strictly and/or try to impose biblical rules on others.
I am aware that you define the terms rather different but even you usually do not mean terrorists when you say things like "I don't mind muslims, I have a problem with the islam" (may not be an exact quote in this case). So even according to your own terminoplogy, Kadagar's statement was rubbish. And I wasn't even aware that he uses the terms in the same way you do. As far as I understand him, he simply wants all muslims gone from Sweden because he thinks they are fundamentally incompatible with the way he wants Sweden to be and that sort of attitude makes it even more likely that he was making a sweeping statement about all muslims since he seems to think they are all potential terrorists. If he wants he can clarify this, until then I maintain that the statement was rubbish.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Fragony

She doesn't practise it at all. But making a point out of abandoning it is more trouble than it's worth, she will get harrased, people will come at her parents door and ask them why they don't correct her.

---

Do you mean one has to blow a horn and ring a bell to proclaim one abandons worshipping? I thought one just stops going to mosque and others will understand.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Brenus

Yes, there are loonies in all religions, because Religions attract loonies like honey bees.

---

Let's officially proclaim all monasteries lunatic asylums and churches psychatric clinics and have done with it.
Only I can name half a dozen other things which attract loonies: computer games, football, Communist party, casinos, Seliger conventions, gangsta rap (heavy metal thirty years ago, Beatles 60 years ago), G-7 meetings, social networks, horse track, drugs, anti-vaccine movement.... What are we to do with all of them?
It is like I said: people bring their attitude with them to whatever field you may mention. If this inherent attitude is violent, they will succed in distorting any originally perfect idea (like Communism). So one is to critisize people not the games they play.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Husar

So unless we become poor or make Putin nuke our continent they will continue to come here even if we burn all our hippies at the stakes.

---

Oh no. Not Putin again. Do you remember that Sarmatian... wait, you say there's the mysterious "us". Then proceed. I shouldn't really "meddle in the affairs of Wizards, for they are subtle and quick to anger".

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Husar

Then maybe he should say "Some muslims sure have a habit of terrorism."

---

:idea2: Let us put it this way: Not all muslims are terrorists, but all terrorists are muslims.

Quote:

---

So one is to critisize people not the games they play.

---

Well, both actually, but in the proper context. For example:

Quote:

---

Let us put it this way: Not all muslims are terrorists, but all terrorists are muslims.

---

The Muslim world numbers in the billions of individuals, and it is in civil war.

That's the key here.

Think the European Wars of Religion mediated by contemporary globalization and technological influence on society.

Ultimately the religion itself proves a trivial factor here (that is, the problem of Muslim terrorism).


Think about this:

Why did the Puritans succeed economically? If you take the Weberian approach, because their religious culture influenced their economic practices.

That's all well and good, and I would agree to a large extent. "Illusions have causal influence", after all.

However, now consider this question:

Why did the Puritans go to America?

Was it because of their religion in any meaningful way? Probably not. It's not like they had anywhere else to go. Geography and politics is the answer to this question, not religion.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Montmorency

Well, both actually, but in the proper context. For example:



The Muslim world numbers in the billions of individuals, and it is in civil war.

That's the key here.

Think the European Wars of Religion mediated by contemporary globalization and technological influence on society.

Ultimately the religion itself proves a trivial factor here (that is, the problem of Muslim terrorism).


Think about this:

Why did the Puritans succeed economically? If you take the Weberian approach, because their religious culture influenced their economic practices.

That's all well and good, and I would agree to a large extent. "Illusions have causal influence", after all.

However, now consider this question:

Why did the Puritans go to America?

Was it because of their religion in any meaningful way? Probably not. It's not like they had anywhere else to go. Geography and politics is the answer to this question, not religion.

---

A disclaimer: in case someone didn't get it - my conclusion on muslims vs terrorists was a sarcasm.
What I meant by people and games: religion (as well as any other social practice and activity) can move people both to good and bad things. There no sense in blaming religion (or any other social ptactice) in what people do.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gilrandir

Oh no. Not Putin again. Do you remember that Sarmatian...

---

You couldn't just quietly enjoy that, could you?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gilrandir

wait, you say there's the mysterious "us". Then proceed. I shouldn't really "meddle in the affairs of Wizards, for they are subtle and quick to anger".

---

Of course there is a mysterious "us", if there is no "us" then there are no immigrants "here".

No, but it is important - as are all aspects of culture, right? The point is to avoid trivialization. Sociologically-speaking, how do elements of cultural contribute to behavior? Also, how do elements of social structure contribute to behavior? How do structure and culture interact?

It's very intellectually-lazy to just declare that everything Muslims do is determined by their religion(s), and that therefore everything that Muslims do which I don't like is determined by their religion(s). On the other hand, painting all humans as "unique individuals and special snowflakes" is just a libertarian delusion.

The best way to approach it, all-in-all, is to note some basic facts that most would agree with:

1. The world is too globalized for societies to avoid or ignore each other.
2. The conflicts of individual Muslim societies, as with most societies through history, are strongly local or regional.
3. The Muslim world as a whole is experiencing more instability than any other segment of the world.
3.a. There are conflicting influences of individualism and collectivism, democracy and totalitarianism in politics.
3.b. Economic inequality is present, and economic inequality leads to political unrest and mobilization.
3.c. Technology enhances communication, mobilization, and information transfer.
3.d. There are major sectarian divides within and between Muslim societies that overlap with differences in intra-society social power and inter-society economic and political power.
4. Religious identities can strongly mediate other identities during times of turmoil or stress.

What do we get when we combine all of this?

TLDR: Muslim terrorism both within the Muslim world and against the West is largely a product of internal struggles and transitions in that world. And a problem situation affecting billions in a specific set of ways, in this day and age, is a global issue with global consequences. Muslim terrorism can only disappear if and when these issues are worked out.

Unfortunately, due to the size of the problem and interconnectedness of the contemporary world, the issues cannot be worked out without major accompanying changes throughout all societies across the world - European society, Chinese society, American society, etc.

Sorry to break it to the thread, but there are no easy solutions, and certainly not anything like "Keep Muslims out of the West".

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Husar

Where's the terrorism in throwing people off a refugee boat in the middle of nowhere?
Who is grasping at straws here?
It's murder and they're being prosecuted, they didn't even have any weapons and failed once the others united against them. The extrapolation from a few extremists to all muslims is just stupid. If I were to find all the murder cases of New York (328 in 2014!) and claim that "New Yorkers sure have a habit of murder" it would be just as stupid.

---

It's right there, 'extrapolation to all muslims'. Kads never did such a thing, it's unfair.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Husar

You couldn't just quietly enjoy that, could you?

---

I have to live up to Sarmatian's description of me - remember - The Nitpicker.
If there is any need I will switch on the Weaseler-Out or CheapShooter mode.
For Sarmatian not to hear us (imagine I'm whispering): we can't discuss it here - it may derail the thread.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Fragony

It's right there, 'extrapolation to all muslims'. Kads never did such a thing, it's unfair.

---

He did when he said "Muslims sure seem to have a habit of terrorism.". That's a generalization based on the acts of a few.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gilrandir

I have to live up to Sarmatian's description of me - remember - The Nitpicker.
If there is any need I will switch on the Weaseler-Out or CheapShooter mode.
For Sarmatian not to hear us (imagine I'm whispering): we can't discuss it here - it may derail the thread.

---

One could also claim that you derailed the thread when your pride couldn't just swallow his request and ignore it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Husar

One could also claim that you derailed the thread when your pride couldn't just swallow his request and ignore it.

---

I believe that in a discussion one has to defend one's stance (otherwise it is not a dicussion but imposing one's views and pushing others around) while no one can force anyone to swallow anything they like at their bidding.
But there is good news for you and Sarmatian: the thread survived!!!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Husar

He did when he said "Muslims sure seem to have a habit of terrorism.". That's a generalization based on the acts of a few

---

It's also simply true, but it's still not saying that all muslims are like that, as you make it appear lime what is said

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Fragony

It's also simply true, but it's still not saying that all muslims are like that, as you make it appear lime what is said

---

"The dutch sure seem to have a habit of wearing wooden shoes." is also a correct statement then and "The Americans sure seem to have a habit of shooting innocent people.". How about "The Germany sure seem to have a habit of being nazis." or "The jews sure seem to have a habit of hoarding money and murdering Palestinians."? All correct and harmless statements? Kadagar sure seems to have a habit of making statements that are then misunderstood.

Geez what confusion...

I meant exactly what I said, muslims have a terrorism problem that they among themselves do too little about... I don't know how it is in other countries, but at least here in Sweden the muslim extremists are respected and allowed in mosques, and younger muslims often view the extremists as "the cool clique"...

Maybe there is an absolute OUTRAGE in the muslim world when muslims terrorize others... Maybe?

I for one sure haven't seen it though.

In England a poll recently showed that IIRC 75% of English muslims want sharia laws... So it's not exactly a "small group" or "minority" of muslims who are lunatic, it's the vast majority of them, even amongst the ones dwelling in western countries.

Are all muslims terrorists? Of course not, never have I said or even thought it.

Does the muslim community have a terrorism problem at large, that they do too little about in and of themselves, yes, I absolutely think so.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Husar

"The dutch sure seem to have a habit of wearing wooden shoes." is also a correct statement then and "The Americans sure seem to have a habit of shooting innocent people.". How about "The Germany sure seem to have a habit of being nazis." or "The jews sure seem to have a habit of hoarding money and murdering Palestinians."? All correct and harmless statements? Kadagar sure seems to have a habit of making statements that are then misunderstood.

---

Kads is just being realistic and calls a spade a spade. Islamapolgists just keep looking for relativation. The worst thing about that is that you probably know you are bullshitting yourself.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV

In England a poll recently showed that IIRC 75% of English muslims want sharia laws... So it's not exactly a "small group" or "minority" of muslims who are lunatic, it's the vast majority of them, even amongst the ones dwelling in western countries.

---

Source please? I'm not saying that you're lying, but poll results are often misunderstood. Frag once referred to a Dutch poll where 80% (more or less) of Dutch muslims supposedly said that they sympathise with IS. This was in fact a deliberate misquotation by Geert Wilders of an opinion poll taken just after the start of the uprising in Syria, before anybody even heard of IS(IS). The question of the poll actually was 'do you support the Syrian opposition'.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kralizec

Source please? I'm not saying that you're lying, but poll results are often misunderstood. Frag once referred to a Dutch poll where 80% (more or less) of Dutch muslims supposedly said that they sympathise with IS. This was in fact a deliberate misquotation by Geert Wilders of an opinion poll taken just after the start of the uprising in Syria, before anybody even heard of IS(IS). The question of the poll actually was 'do you support the Syrian opposition'.

---

I nuanced that myselve mind you, IS wasn't there at the time, only the fight agaist Assad, no foul play, if you look for the post you will see me saying the same thing.

We could look at Pew Research:
http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/t...iety-overview/

Quote:

---

Overwhelming percentages of Muslims in many countries want Islamic law (sharia) to be the official law of the land, according to a worldwide survey by the Pew Research Center. But many supporters of sharia say it should apply only to their country’s Muslim population.

Moreover, Muslims are not equally comfortable with all aspects of sharia: While most favor using religious law in family and property disputes, fewer support the application of severe punishments – such as whippings or cutting off hands – in criminal cases. The survey also shows that Muslims differ widely in how they interpret certain aspects of sharia, including whether divorce and family planning are morally acceptable.

---

It doesn't cover the UK however, the most recent polls I could find about the UK are shocking though:

40% - http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...law-in-UK.html
37% - http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2007/j...religion/print
30-40% - http://chersonandmolschky.com/2014/0...ria-law-world/

Not exactly 75% but 40% is close I guess. The last link has central Europe at 65% on average in the summary, a document I found from a german ministry earlier didn't see a huge potential for extremism among german muslims however. Which parts of Sharia people want or whether they all interprete it in the same way or whether they even want it to apply to non-muslims is however hard to convey with a single percentage number.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Fragony

Kads is just being realistic and calls a spade a spade. Islamapolgists just keep looking for relativation. The worst thing about that is that you probably know you are bullshitting yourself.

---

Problem is that both you and Kads are refusing to look at actual statistics. For example, when it comes to Intentional Murder rates, first 20 countries are all predominantly Christian.

It has much more to do with poverty and education than with religion.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sarmatian

Problem is that both you and Kads are refusing to look at actual statistics. For example, when it comes to Intentional Murder rates, first 20 countries are all predominantly Christian.

It has much more to do with poverty and education than with religion.

---

Eh...

Have I ever... I mean like... Ever... Left out the ethnical or cultural perspective?

I would argue quite the contrary, that if it's one person on these boards who have shine some lights on these issues it would be me :inquisitive:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV

Have I ever... I mean like... Ever...

---

Most of your posts are overly dramatic and take an innocently defensive stance whenever you are not trying to be edgy, so it is hard to really pick out what is what.