Now, these are not terrorists, right? Just your average muslim refugees...

[Husar]

I was about to say you should stop discussing a relatively minor issue.
While I generally agree that Gilrandir mentiones Putin a bit often in unrelated discussions, I did find it somewhat funny this time around, that's why I thanked the post.

On second thought, discussing that might be better than going with the original intention of the topic, but that's just my opinion.

[Fragony]

Kadagar and Fragony don't use Muslim rhetoric all the time. Kadagar spends a healthy amount of time voicing his displeasure about USAians and Fragony hates all immigrants equally (along with lefty pinkos) because they be polluting his culture. Like you can pollute a culture in which people wear wooden shoes.

They've also been known to talk about totally different things.

But, most importantly, they tend to speak about their beliefs when it is pertinent to the discussion. So, in the Ukraine thread we talk about Putin, but there's absolutely no reason at all to mention him when we talk about violence between Christian and Muslim African refugees who are trying to smuggle themselves to Italy.

There's absolutely no connection between Putin and Libyan refugees, not even a miniscule, remote one. Don't be a one trick pony.

lol I guess I have tell my sometimes girlfriend I hate her, she is a muslima from Iran. She dispisesislam more than me

And me priviliged? Did I suddenly become a senior member? (not at you)

[Husar]

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-32311358

About 400 migrants are feared drowned after their boat capsized off Libya, survivors have told Save the Children.
The Italian coast guard rescued 144 people from the boat on Monday and launched an air and sea search operation in hopes of saving others.
Hundreds more migrants rescued from boats in the Mediterranean are due to arrive in Sicily during the day.
More than 8,000 migrants have been picked up since Friday, and more boats are heading for the Italian coast.

Obviously this is all the fault of the greens, the tree huggers and the fact that our air isn't quite as polluted anymore.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentis...ow-many-deaths

But equally important is responsibility. In all the rage about migration, one thing is never discussed: what we do to cause it. A report published this week by the International Consortium of Investigative Journalists reveals that the World Bank displaced a staggering 3.4 million people in the last five years. By funding privatisations, land grabs and dams, by backing companies and governments accused of rape, murder and torture, and by putting $50bn into projects graded highest risk for “irreversible and unprecedented” social impacts, the World Bank has massively contributed to the flow of impoverished people across the globe. The single biggest thing we could do to stop migration is to abolish the development mafia: the World Bank, International Monetary Fund, European Investment Bank and European Bank for Reconstruction and Development.

So much about throwing money at these countries to "solve the problem". We've thrown money and bombs at Africa for quite a while now and the stream of migrants seems to have increased rather than decreased.

[Gilrandir]

Thirdly, rvg did it once, while you do it much more often. One could say almost all the time.

I think it would be fair to supplement it with this

This is my personal observation.

I don't like your posting style because you often try to portray propaganda as facts, while the quality of discussion here is usually much better, and you try to weasel out and you nitpick and take cheap shot too often, but, in my opinion you're improving.

I noticed the same crimes you charge me with in others' posts, so what you term as "my style" is not that unique. Once you said that you discuss things here, so I don't see any reasons why any of the tactics described by you can't be used in such discussions and I'm not aware of any limitations imposed by the rules of the forum on using them.
Curiously, you are guilty of some of the abovementioned crimes, like nitpicking or presenting propaganda (i.e. claims made by Putin in the Crimea movie) as facts.
So, on balance, I have as much right as you (since you consider yourself unpriviliged) to say whatever I like as long as I stick to the forum rules.

I know it's hard not to take some stuff said about your country personally, especially when there's an ongoing crisis, but it is possible.

From my personal observations, I would say that I take personally stuff about Putin since I'm well aware of the shortcomings of my country and its politicians, but I don't agree with attempts to paint Russian policies white.

We're all allowed some leeway but we have to try to stick to topic otherwise it will turn into a reddit-like discussion.

See: you are discussing me and my posting style in the thread meant for discussing other things.

lol I guess I have tell my sometimes girlfriend I hate her, she is a muslima from Iran. She dispisesislam more than me

Can one be a football fan and despise the game? I think that if one professes some religion one can't despise it. So one of the statements is not true.

[Sarmatian]

Curiously, you are guilty of some of the abovementioned crimes, like nitpicking or presenting propaganda (i.e. claims made by Putin in the Crimea movie) as facts.
So, on balance, I have as much right as you (since you consider yourself unpriviliged) to say whatever I like as long as I stick to the forum rules.

You misunderstood me. Facts about the documentary. I was talking about what he said in the documentary and the fact is he said that in the documentary. He may be lying, but he said that. Again, I'm not talking about what happened in reality, but what he said in the documentary. That is a fact and can be easily verified by watching the documentary.

From my personal observations, I would say that I take personally stuff about Putin since I'm well aware of the shortcomings of my country and its politicians, but I don't agree with attempts to paint Russian policies white.

I don't think anyone ever did that (paint Russian policies white), but okay. And I don't believe in shortcomings of a country, only in shortcomings of political leaders.

See: you are discussing me and my posting style in the thread meant for discussing other things.

Exactly. There was absolutely no need to mention Putin in this thread and it derailed the thread.

Also, for future reference, anything I say about politics is my personal opinion. I don't represent this board, my country, my town... Just me. Ok?

[Fragony]

I think it would be fair to supplement it with this



I noticed the same crimes you charge me with in others' posts, so what you term as "my style" is not that unique. Once you said that you discuss things here, so I don't see any reasons why any of the tactics described by you can't be used in such discussions and I'm not aware of any limitations imposed by the rules of the forum on using them.
Curiously, you are guilty of some of the abovementioned crimes, like nitpicking or presenting propaganda (i.e. claims made by Putin in the Crimea movie) as facts.
So, on balance, I have as much right as you (since you consider yourself unpriviliged) to say whatever I like as long as I stick to the forum rules.

From my personal observations, I would say that I take personally stuff about Putin since I'm well aware of the shortcomings of my country and its politicians, but I don't agree with attempts to paint Russian policies white.

See: you are discussing me and my posting style in the thread meant for discussing other things.

Can one be a football fan and despise the game? I think that if one professes some religion one can't despise it. So one of the statements is not true.

Being born muslim doesn't mean you submit to islam, I am much more mild than her. She doesn't believe in moderate muslims at all.

[Gilrandir]

And I don't believe in shortcomings of a country, only in shortcomings of political leaders.

When you visit a country you see things which you may not like (customs, meals, practices). It would be a far-fetched assumption to explain their existence by the political mismanagement of the country's leaders.

Being born muslim doesn't mean you submit to islam

You can't be born into the religion. It is not nature, it's nurture. One might have been introduced to (and gone through) its rites and practices in one's childhood, yet being of a sober age one may easily change it if one dislikes it.

[Husar]

Also, for future reference, anything I say about politics is my personal opinion. I don't represent this board, my country, my town... Just me. Ok?

So you want the benefits of citizen-/membership but none of the responsibilities?
We chose you as our official spokesperson in a secret member meeting that you were unfortunately excluded from.
It is therefore your duty to represent us all.

You can't be born into the religion. It is not nature, it's nurture. One might have been introduced to (and gone through) its rites and practices in one's childhood, yet being of a sober age one may easily change it if one dislikes it.

Fragologics strike again.

[Fragony]

You can't be born into the religion. It is not nature, it's nurture. One might have been introduced to (and gone through) its rites and practices in one's childhood, yet being of a sober age one may easily change it if one dislikes it.

Do you know what happens to people that make a point out of abandoning islam? She is a muslim only in name, she hates the islam and I don't blame her.

[Gilrandir]

Do you know what happens to people that make a point out of abandoning islam? She is a muslim only in name, she hates the islam and I don't blame her.

Then she is as good as abandoned it having done it nice and quiet. Unless she continues to go to mosque and follow the rites.
But I thought in the Nertherlands one was free to choose and lose one's religion.

[Gilrandir]

So you want the benefits of citizen-/membership but none of the responsibilities?
We chose you as our official spokesperson in a secret member meeting that you were unfortunately excluded from.
It is therefore your duty to represent us all.

This "us" starts to appal me somehow.

[Fragony]

Then she is as good as abandoned it having done it nice and quiet. Unless she continues to go to mosque and follow the rites.
But I thought in the Nertherlands one was free to choose and lose one's religion.

You are but it's a bad idea to make a point out of it, atracts the loonies. She doesn't want to have anything to do with it, but isn't exactly waiting for the consequences that comes with rejecting it alltogether. Abandoning islam is the worst crime you can commit in the eyes of fundamentalists, we gladly don't have a lot of the dangerous kind but it's still not worth the trouble. She's just a cute Iranian girl that was born muslim.

[Gilrandir]

You are but it's a bad idea to make a point out of it, atracts the loonies. She doesn't want to have anything to do with it, but isn't exactly waiting for the consequences that comes with rejecting it alltogether. Abandoning islam is the worst crime you can commit in the eyes of fundamentalists, we gladly don't have a lot of the dangerous kind but it's still not worth the trouble. She's just a cute Iranian girl that was born muslim.

So she continues to ostensibly practice it, but privately hates it?

[Fragony]

So she continues to ostensibly practice it, but privately hates it?

She doesn't practise it at all. But making a point out of abandoning it is more trouble than it's worth, she will get harrased, people will come at her parents door and ask them why they don't correct her. Her parents won't do that becausr they feel exactly the same. They know what it is to live in an islamic state and got the hell out of there.

edit: another 700 drowned, actual numbers still unknown but geez, can we please stop holding a carrot. What a nightmare that must have been.

[Kadagar_AV]

As my views have already been both expressed and defended, with me having nothing to do with it what so ever, I don't really know what to contribute with here...

I dislike Islam

[Husar]

edit: another 700 drowned, actual numbers still unknown but geez, can we please stop holding a carrot. What a nightmare that must have been.

Are those 700 a new number of the 400 I linked earlier or is it 1100 total?
And do you think "not holding a carrot" would stop most of them? A lot of them try to get in illegally if I'm not mistaken. All those people venturing into the US over the fence, through tunnels, in trains, cars and trucks as well as the ones who try to claim the deadly fence into Spanish territory despite the illegality of their act do not seem to care much about the actual immigration policies of European countries.
Or do you mean we should burn Europe down and destroy our industry because that is what attracts them?

[Fragony]

No this is a new accident, horrifying.And what makes you assume I am so cold-hearted, I am against illegal immigration and the NGO's that have blood on their hands.

edit, numbers aren't actually comfiirmed by the way, 700 is a rough estimate

[Sarmatian]

Well, at least we can rest easy knowing that Libya is a democracy now and that everything was worth it.

[rajpoot]

What is even the point of the Islam bashing? There are loonies in every religion. Christians and Buddhists have their own loonies and thugs although they're fewer in number. Even Hindus have loonies. You just have to look at some of the statements these people have been making here ever since BJP came into power in India. Retarded Hindu hardliners crawling out from every nook and cranny, forcing people whose farthers and forefather might've converted to Islam to convert back to Hinduism. Making statements like, the Chritians and Muslims who don't undergo birth control operations shouldn't have the vote...It's just stupid.
I've said it before and I'll say it again, even if a small percentage of the practicing population of a certain religion is not loony, it means there's scope in that religion for it to be interpreted in a moderate manner that does not cause discomfort to others. And till that scope exists, bashing that religion is more counter productive than anything else.

[Kadagar_AV]

What is even the point of the Islam bashing? There are loonies in every religion. Christians and Buddhists have their own loonies and thugs although they're fewer in number. Even Hindus have loonies. You just have to look at some of the statements these people have been making here ever since BJP came into power in India. Retarded Hindu hardliners crawling out from every nook and cranny, forcing people whose farthers and forefather might've converted to Islam to convert back to Hinduism. Making statements like, the Chritians and Muslims who don't undergo birth control operations shouldn't have the vote...It's just stupid.
I've said it before and I'll say it again, even if a small percentage of the practicing population of a certain religion is not loony, it means there's scope in that religion for it to be interpreted in a moderate manner that does not cause discomfort to others. And till that scope exists, bashing that religion is more counter productive than anything else.

You are right that all religions have loonies, of course.

It's just that Islam seem to have SO DAMN WAY MORE OF THEM!!!!!!!

See, that is the problem. Buddhism is about 1/3rd the size of Islam... Yet it's not like 1/3 of the horrible and gruesome international terrorist acts we hear of are made by buddhists. Right?

And that IS the problem. All religions are NOT the same, and Islam just happened to be founded by a desert living tribal pedophile with a god complex.

Several hundreds of years later we still see the effects of this idiot.

[Brenus]

"And till that scope exists, bashing that religion is more counter productive than anything else." Because to keep it down (the really nasty aspects I mean, as Gender Discrimination, Racist and call to murder others) did work did it?

So what would be "productive" if your view?ignoring the facts that our ally the Saudis chop hand off to robbers, kill the gays, lashes opponents, discriminate women in all aspects of life, and have no others religions allowed on their soil?

Yes, there are loonies in all religions, because Religions attract loonies like honey bees. So, let's apply the common law, and all books calling for racism, discrimination, violence should be ban, and all organisations supporting these calls should be make illegal. Ooops, no more religions, what a shame...

[Husar]

No this is a new accident, horrifying.And what makes you assume I am so cold-hearted, I am against illegal immigration and the NGO's that have blood on their hands.

I didn't say you're cold-hearted, I'm saying your point that NGOs are solely responsible for this is complete rubbish. Immigrants aren't attracted by hippies who take care of them, they are attracted by peace and prosperity. So unless we become poor or make Putin nuke our continent they will continue to come here even if we burn all our hippies at the stakes. We have plenty of capitalists who have done much more to make these people come here than any NGOs ever could by the way. I'm not saying NGOs are blameless, some of them do cause harm over there, but you always put the blame solely on them and that's just rubbish.

See, that is the problem. Buddhism is about 1/3rd the size of Islam... Yet it's not like 1/3 of the horrible and gruesome international terrorist acts we hear of are made by buddhists. Right?

Well, we didn't just place a nation of a different kind of religious hardliners and terrorists in the middle of buddhist territory either. And then what we "hear of" is a very good way to say it because all those drone strikes and military strikes christians and others perform all the time don't get the headlines but when an islamist kills a dozen journalists it's all over the news for weeks. If every wedding that Obama bombed had been in the news for weeks you might think christians are the biggest murderers by now. Unless you're one of those who think Obama is secretly a muslim anyway.

[Kadagar_AV]

I didn't say you're cold-hearted, I'm saying your point that NGOs are solely responsible for this is complete rubbish. Immigrants aren't attracted by hippies who take care of them, they are attracted by peace and prosperity. So unless we become poor or make Putin nuke our continent they will continue to come here even if we burn all our hippies at the stakes. We have plenty of capitalists who have done much more to make these people come here than any NGOs ever could by the way. I'm not saying NGOs are blameless, some of them do cause harm over there, but you always put the blame solely on them and that's just rubbish.



Well, we didn't just place a nation of a different kind of religious hardliners and terrorists in the middle of buddhist territory either. And then what we "hear of" is a very good way to say it because all those drone strikes and military strikes christians and others perform all the time don't get the headlines but when an islamist kills a dozen journalists it's all over the news for weeks. If every wedding that Obama bombed had been in the news for weeks you might think christians are the biggest murderers by now. Unless you're one of those who think Obama is secretly a muslim anyway.

Oh Husar

* I totally acknowledge that the West agreeing to make the Jewish claim on Israel a reality was ill advised, probably by jews.

* That however has nothing to do with why Muslims can't behave on an international scene.

* You have to separate national warfare from terrorism... I am NOT saying national warfare can't **** up, just look at the last US wars. What I mean is that we at national warfare at least have someone responsible...

And yes, I leave rogue nations like the US out of the last argument, because of obvious reasons (like not signing the international laws of warfare like the rest of the grown ups did).

[Husar]

Oh Husar

* I totally acknowledge that the West agreeing to make the Jewish claim on Israel a reality was ill advised, probably by jews.

* That however has nothing to do with why Muslims can't behave on an international scene.

* You have to separate national warfare from terrorism... I am NOT saying national warfare can't **** up, just look at the last US wars. What I mean is that we at national warfare at least have someone responsible...

And yes, I leave rogue nations like the US out of the last argument, because of obvious reasons (like not signing the international laws of warfare like the rest of the grown ups did).

Come on, I'm sure if you really try you can come up with a somewhat reasonable response.

Let me help you out with the following question: What do you think constitutes "behaving on an international scene"?
Would you consider spilling oil all over other peoples' countries well-behaved?
https://www.amnesty.org/en/articles/...t-niger-delta/

Royal Dutch Shell and the Italian multinational oil giant ENI have admitted to more than 550 oil spills in the Niger Delta last year, according to an Amnesty International analysis of the companies’ latest figures. By contrast, on average, there were only 10 spills a year across the whole of Europe between 1971 and 2011.

Shell reported 204 Niger Delta spills in 2014 while ENI, which operates in a smaller area, reported a staggering 349 spills.

“These figures are seriously alarming. ENI has clearly lost control over its operations in the Niger Delta. And despite all its promises, Shell has made no progress on tackling oil spills,” said Audrey Gaughran, Amnesty International’s Global Issues Director.

[Kadagar_AV]

Come on, I'm sure if you really try you can come up with a somewhat reasonable response.

Let me help you out with the following question: What do you think constitutes "behaving on an international scene"?
Would you consider spilling oil all over other peoples' countries well-behaved?
https://www.amnesty.org/en/articles/...t-niger-delta/

Spilling oil is very rude and should of course be prosecuted.

However, WHAT has that to do with super powers blowing people up mainly because they can, or terrorists who blow people up because their tribal sand people book say so?

Oh Husar, you are really grasping at straws here, aren't you? You SERIOUSLY think you somehow "won" the debate by completely shifting the focus to oil spills, instead of staying on the topic that is - Muslims sure seem to have a habit of terrorism.

[Husar]

Oh Husar, you are really grasping at straws here, aren't you? You SERIOUSLY think you somehow "won" the debate by completely shifting the focus to oil spills, instead of staying on the topic that is - Muslims sure seem to have a habit of terrorism.

Where's the terrorism in throwing people off a refugee boat in the middle of nowhere?
Who is grasping at straws here?
It's murder and they're being prosecuted, they didn't even have any weapons and failed once the others united against them. The extrapolation from a few extremists to all muslims is just stupid. If I were to find all the murder cases of New York (328 in 2014!) and claim that "New Yorkers sure have a habit of murder" it would be just as stupid.

[Fragony]

Again the all thingie. Not all, a lot. Kads has never said all, neither have I ever done so. People who look away from a problem, islamapoligists, are part of the problem. Islam isn't just a religion, it's submission. It doesn't mean all muslims submit to islam. Most muslims only care about what's for dinner, you aren't doing them a favour, they are terrified of extremists.

[Husar]

Again the all thingie. Not all, a lot. Kads has never said all, neither have I ever done so. People who look away from a problem, islamapoligists, are part of the problem. Islam isn't just a religion, it's submission. It doesn't mean all muslims submit to islam. Most muslims only care about what's for dinner, you aren't doing them a favour, they are terrified of extremists.

Then maybe he should say "Some muslims sure have a habit of terrorism." It's not my fault if he or you fail to express yourselves clearly. I also wasn't talking about you in case you didn't notice it, are you two a holy duality now?

[Fragony]

Then maybe he should say "Some muslims sure have a habit of terrorism." It's not my fault if he or you fail to express yourselves clearly. I also wasn't talking about you in case you didn't notice it, are you two a holy duality now?

I am pretty sure Kads and me agree on some things. And yeah it's your fault if you read 'all' when it says 'a lot' and draw conclusions.
Kads is just being reasonable, I don't understand how you can miss that.

[Husar]

I am pretty sure Kads and me agree on some things. And yeah it's your fault if you read 'all' when it says 'a lot' and draw conclusions.
Kads is just being reasonable, I don't understand how you can miss that.

Now you may be the one with reading issues, it only says "Muslims sure seem to have a habit of terrorism.", there is no "a lot" and no "all" but without a modifier "all" is usually implied. I didn't miss anything, I went with the normal interpretation of what he said and it's no secret that he wants them all gone from his country unless he has suddenly started to use some weird interpretation of the word "islam" like you do.

Again, I won't take any responsibility if you people fail at communicating your point. If you use a different interpretation of a word than 7 billion other people, then it is your responsibility to explain/define it and not mine to guess what you may mean.
To me muslims are people who follow the religion of islam with a wide variety of interpretations and islamists or islamic terrorists are the muslims who use a very violent/strict interpretation of islam and try to blow us up in some cases. This interpretation is mostly anologous to the one we use for christians, where christian fundamentalists are the ones who interprete the bible very strictly and/or try to impose biblical rules on others.
I am aware that you define the terms rather different but even you usually do not mean terrorists when you say things like "I don't mind muslims, I have a problem with the islam" (may not be an exact quote in this case). So even according to your own terminoplogy, Kadagar's statement was rubbish. And I wasn't even aware that he uses the terms in the same way you do. As far as I understand him, he simply wants all muslims gone from Sweden because he thinks they are fundamentally incompatible with the way he wants Sweden to be and that sort of attitude makes it even more likely that he was making a sweeping statement about all muslims since he seems to think they are all potential terrorists. If he wants he can clarify this, until then I maintain that the statement was rubbish.