Trump Thread

Original Thread title: Rising to Greatness Again or America's Sicily Moment?

Good luck my Southern friends :)
My vote:

https://youtu.be/JSUIQgEVDM4

melodrama:

https://youtu.be/MgEqCzWhbYI

You spelled SILLY wrong. If you are going to toss about your intellectual, maple-tainted sarcasm the least you can do is get the spelling corect.

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Originally Posted by Major Robert Dump

You spelled SILLY wrong. If you are going to toss about your intellectual, maple-tainted sarcasm the least you can do is get the spelling corect.

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[SF writes down "maple-tainted" to use later. Smiles a rather "Snively Whiplash" sort of smile.]

This just in: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bGTznIy6i4w

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Originally Posted by Major Robert Dump

You spelled SILLY wrong. If you are going to toss about your intellectual, maple-tainted sarcasm the least you can do is get the spelling corect.

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You never called

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Originally Posted by Strike For The South

You never called

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Don't give me that crap. I offered to shirtless-broSkype with you so many times but always an excuse. I WANT MY BOOK BACK

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Originally Posted by Major Robert Dump

Don't give me that crap. I offered to shirtless-broSkype with you so many times but always an excuse. I WANT MY BOOK BACK

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I DONT KNOW WHERE THE BOOK IS, IM SORRY. IT MAY BE IN STORAGE. I WAS TOO EMBRASSED TO SAY ANYTHING.

FORGIVE ME.

:(

Well that turned down south quickly. From... uhm... what's this thread about... to shirtless bro Skyping. :inquisitive:

So, all we needed for some of the Old Guard to check back was Trump winning the election.

He's been in power three days and he's allready making the org great again.

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Originally Posted by edyzmedieval

Well that turned down south quickly. From... uhm... what's this thread about... to shirtless bro Skyping. :inquisitive:

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"down South?"

As a resident of the southernmost of the continental United States, I mis-admire your use of that phrase as belittling of the nobility of the Southlands.

Moreover, even the Spartans thought it seemly to have a younger man, rippled from his noble efforts at the gymnasium and enlightened by his studies of philosophy and the law, taken "under the wing" of an older veteran to ensure the proper development of his manliness. How can you think less of this?

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Originally Posted by Sarmatian

So, all we needed for some of the Old Guard to check back was Trump winning the election.

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To be fair to MRD, I actually use this site to gauge some of the sensibilities of those of you folks "cross the pond." It isn't reported upon here with much depth in the mainstream media.

Thank you Seamus for getting the thread somewhat back on the rails :)
Particularly since, "Sicily Moment" refers to Athens fatal error of sending the fleet to loot Sicily during the winter "downtime", and before the resumption of Spartan hostilities in campaign season.
The price of pride and greed was to lose Athens; it would rise again...but..

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Originally Posted by HopAlongBunny

Thank you Seamus for getting the thread somewhat back on the rails :)
Particularly since, "Sicily Moment" refers to Athens fatal error of sending the fleet to loot Sicily during the winter "downtime", and before the resumption of Spartan hostilities in campaign season.
The price of pride and greed was to lose Athens; it would rise again...but..

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The Peleponnesian War always seemed such a disconnected sort of affair. As though the whole thing happened in fits and starts without any strategic plan by anyone.

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Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh

The Peleponnesian War always seemed such a disconnected sort of affair. As though the whole thing happened in fits and starts without any strategic plan by anyone.

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Well, it did involve many leading figures over several decades. There's no one "administration" to point to.

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Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh

The Peleponnesian War always seemed such a disconnected sort of affair. As though the whole thing happened in fits and starts without any strategic plan by anyone.

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That seems an accurate assessment.

I admit my study of it is not thorough; outside of Thucydides book I know very little; but the Sicilian expedition marks a turning point.
My proposition is that Trump also marks a turning point.

I would go so far as to call Trump "Americas' Pivot Man"

A thread for posting about Trump's progress, announcements, policy decisions, and controversies.

Day one: the day of national devotion.

Attachment 19407

U.S. Presidents do not "reign." Some of them haven't even presided all that well.

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Originally Posted by HopAlongBunny

I admit my study of it is not thorough; outside of Thucydides book I know very little; but the Sicilian expedition marks a turning point.
My proposition is that Trump also marks a turning point.

I would go so far as to call Trump "Americas' Pivot Man"

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I've thought of it as Athens' Barbarossa: needlessly restarting and expanding the war when they had achieved an advantageous peace from the previous bout of campaigning.

I think that may have been the joke

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Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh

U.S. Presidents do not "reign." Some of them haven't even presided all that well.

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I'm not sure Trump knows that given his rhetoric and behavior. ~;)

Trump thread merged with other Trump thread. He is not important enough for two.

Renamed it to make it more obvious.

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Originally Posted by Husar

I'm not sure Trump knows that given his rhetoric and behavior. ~;)

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He's just used to being "The Boss." Right now, it is all confirmations while his party (more or less his anyway) holds the majority and executive orders. He has NOT faced Washington gridlock or a true crisis. We will not know his mettle for a while yet, and his "I am an executive" approach will work fine for this easy part. The rest remains to be seen.

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Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh

He's just used to being "The Boss." Right now, it is all confirmations while his party (more or less his anyway) holds the majority and executive orders. He has NOT faced Washington gridlock or a true crisis. We will not know his mettle for a while yet, and his "I am an executive" approach will work fine for this easy part. The rest remains to be seen.

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What happened the last time the same party held the majority in all branches of government? I'm not too familiar with the details of US politics, but it's my impression that the system was designed to have contrary and competing opinions in different branches.

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Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh

He's just used to being "The Boss." Right now, it is all confirmations while his party (more or less his anyway) holds the majority and executive orders. He has NOT faced Washington gridlock or a true crisis. We will not know his mettle for a while yet, and his "I am an executive" approach will work fine for this easy part. The rest remains to be seen.

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That sounds a lot like a king/son of a nobleman. :sweatdrop:

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Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh

He's just used to being "The Boss." Right now, it is all confirmations while his party (more or less his anyway) holds the majority and executive orders. He has NOT faced Washington gridlock or a true crisis. We will not know his mettle for a while yet, and his "I am an executive" approach will work fine for this easy part. The rest remains to be seen.

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I don't think we are going to see a change in behavior, because Trump doesn't know any other way to act.

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Originally Posted by CrossLOPER

I don't think we are going to see a change in behavior, because Trump doesn't know any other way to act.

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We don't know that.

Obama had zero executive experience before he became President but relatively few people seemed worried about that.

People just don't like Trump.

I came back because I got an email. I didn't even know there was an election, I missed my own birthday and I forgot Christmas because the Philippines is awesome

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Originally Posted by Major Robert Dump

I came back because I got an email. I didn't even know there was an election, I missed my own birthday and I forgot Christmas because the Philippines is awesome

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Isn't that where all the nonces go on holiday?

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Originally Posted by Major Robert Dump

I came back because I got an email. I didn't even know there was an election, I missed my own birthday and I forgot Christmas because the Philippines is awesome

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Huh, and he're I thought you were back because the state executed your dealer.

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Originally Posted by CrossLOPER

I don't think we are going to see a change in behavior, because Trump doesn't know any other way to act.

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This executive approach is certainly his "comfort zone." It is one of his strengths. He will have to adapt because no one person is powerful enough to bend all of the bureaucracy to his or her will -- at least for any length of time. His ability to make quick and decisive choices could be a real strength if used judiciously.

I think people underestimate his intelligence. Very few unintelligent persons have ever held the office at least since the outset of the 20th century (though I have my doubts about Harding). It remains to be seen if he is adaptable as well as intelligent, as well as how skilled he will be at molding those around him to work in his preferred fashion.

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Originally Posted by Idaho

Isn't that where all the nonces go on holiday?

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I think that's Thailand, with Cambodia for the Pedos. As I recall, PI is stereotypically associated with the lbfm.

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Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh

I think people underestimate his intelligence. Very few unintelligent persons have ever held the office at least since the outset of the 20th century (though I have my doubts about Harding). It remains to be seen if he is adaptable as well as intelligent, as well as how skilled he will be at molding those around him to work in his preferred fashion.

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Have you ever had to work under anyone who held the title of manager? Ever? Have you been paying attention to how he behaves? He thinks with his ego.

The only reason he isn't shilling used cars right now is because he had the presence of mind to pass of his money making operations to people who actually knew what they are doing, and that his brand name is actually worth something. He is to intelligence as bitcoin is to a sustainable currency.

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Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh

I think that's Thailand, with Cambodia for the Pedos. As I recall, PI is stereotypically associated with the lbfm.

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I don't know about the US but in the UK "nonce" is the same as paedophile.

Why Idaho wanted to bring that up I don't know.

In other news, looks like Trump will be good for the UK.

Returning the bust of Winston Churchill to the Oval Office is a significant step, as much as Obama removing it and replacing it with one of Martin Luthor King was. The fact that he wants to play "Ronnie" to May's "Maggie" is also likely to benefit us.

Not that I expect him to ever put himself out for us, the "Special Relationship" has always been one-sided in that respect.

Well, I've been using that word wrong for 10 years.

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Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh

This executive approach is certainly his "comfort zone." It is one of his strengths. He will have to adapt because no one person is powerful enough to bend all of the bureaucracy to his or her will -- at least for any length of time. His ability to make quick and decisive choices could be a real strength if used judiciously.

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Everyone has that ability, the question is whether the result is desirable.
If he had always made the right quick decisions, why did he have so many failed businesses?

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Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh

I think people underestimate his intelligence.

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He may have a very high social intelligence or so in the sense that he knows who to get drunk with or how to appeal to other rich white men, that does however not mean that he necessarily understands everything he does. And if he does, well, you're now being ruled by an orange Machiavelli... :sweatdrop:

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Originally Posted by Greyblades

Well, I've been using that word wrong for 10 years.

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nonce_(slang)

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Originally Posted by Husar

Everyone has that ability, the question is whether the result is desirable.
If he had always made the right quick decisions, why did he have so many failed businesses?

He may have a very high social intelligence or so in the sense that he knows who to get drunk with or how to appeal to other rich white men, that does however not mean that he necessarily understands everything he does. And if he does, well, you're now being ruled by an orange Machiavelli... :sweatdrop:

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Why did he have so much money?

How did he win the Presidency?

He may not be an "Intellectual" like Obama but that doesn't mean he isn't generally Intelligent, or cunning.

At least he is doing what he said he would do.

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Originally Posted by Philippus Flavius Homovallumus

I don't know about the US but in the UK "nonce" is the same as paedophile.

Why Idaho wanted to bring that up I don't know.

In other news, looks like Trump will be good for the UK.

Returning the bust of Winston Churchill to the Oval Office is a significant step, as much as Obama removing it and replacing it with one of Martin Luthor King was. The fact that he wants to play "Ronnie" to May's "Maggie" is also likely to benefit us.

Not that I expect him to ever put himself out for us, the "Special Relationship" has always been one-sided in that respect.

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Not exactly?

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There was a lot of commentary on Friday that President Trump had returned a bust of Sir Winston Churchill to the Oval Office. President Obama had famously removed it. But some news reports have got the issue mixed up.

Few people seem to understand that there are actually two busts, by the same artist. The bust that Obama had returned to the British government is not the same bust that Trump now has in the Oval Office, as Trump hinted at in his remarks to the CIA.

There are two busts of Churchill, virtually identical, which for the sake of simplicity we will call Bust A and Bust B.

Bust A was made by the English sculptor Sir Jacob Epstein. It was given to President Lyndon B. Johnson on Oct. 6, 1965. (Here’s Lady Bird Johnson’s diary entry about the gift, which was facilitated by Churchill’s wartime friends, including W. Averell Harriman.) So that bust has been in the White House for more than five decades.

Bust B also was made by Epstein. It was provided in July 2001 by then Prime Minister Tony Blair, via the British ambassador, as a loan to President George W. Bush because Bust A was being repaired. Bush said he would keep it in the Oval Office, and various news reports at the time said the bust would be returned once Bush left office.

According to a 2010 interview with White House curator William Allman, the decision to return the bust had been made even before Obama arrived, as the loan was scheduled to last only as long as Bush’s presidency. That narrative was confirmed by British ambassador Sir Peter Westmacott just before stepped down in 2015: “To be honest, we always expected that to leave the Oval Office just like everything else that a president has tends to be changed,” he told The Guardian newspaper. “Even the carpet is usually changed when the president changes.”

Bust B was shipped back to the library of the British ambassador’s residence.

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But for your pleasure:

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“The prime minister has agreed to loan the Churchill bust [Bust B] at the request of the Trump team,” a British Embassy spokesman said. “We are working out the details on the return.” It should not be a long trip: Bust B is still in the ambassador’s residence, which is next to the vice president’s residence on Massachusetts Avenue.

Note: Trump has indicated that the British made the request first. “The prime minister is coming over to our country very shortly, and they wanted to know whether I’d like it back,” he said. “I said, ‘Absolutely.’ ”

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Originally Posted by a completely inoffensive name

At least he is doing what he said he would do.

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You knew I was a snake!

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Originally Posted by Philippus Flavius Homovallumus

Why did he have so much money?

How did he win the Presidency?

He may not be an "Intellectual" like Obama but that doesn't mean he isn't generally Intelligent, or cunning.

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1. From daddy and his friends. Didn't he even get new money when he was already bankrupt? Do poor people without connections get that, too?

2. Not by appealing to the most intelligent people and not by winning the popular vote either, while we're at it. I don't think intelligence is a requirement to win an election.

It is also entirely possible that he is a combination of all that as I said. He may know how to get (certain) people to support him, but that does not mean he knows how to run a country well. Otherwise every winner of "Country x has talent" would have to be a genius. If we derive intelligence from popularity, scripted reality shows have to be something we can learn a lot from. :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Montmorency

Not exactly?



But for your pleasure:



You knew I was a snake!

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I am not suggesting it was a deliberate snub, but it was a deliberate decision to visibly replace the Churchill Bust with the King Bust. As Obama notes he had another Bust of Churchill that he could have moved to the Oval Office. Trump apparently found room for both Busts.

Rather like Obama saying the UK would "go to the back of the queue" for a trade deal behind China, it speaks to his attitude.

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Originally Posted by Husar

1. From daddy and his friends. Didn't he even get new money when he was already bankrupt? Do poor people without connections get that, too?

2. Not by appealing to the most intelligent people and not by winning the popular vote either, while we're at it. I don't think intelligence is a requirement to win an election.

It is also entirely possible that he is a combination of all that as I said. He may know how to get (certain) people to support him, but that does not mean he knows how to run a country well. Otherwise every winner of "Country x has talent" would have to be a genius. If we derive intelligence from popularity, scripted reality shows have to be something we can learn a lot from. :rolleyes:

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Before Obama became President he had essentially been an academic and a Senator, not any kind of executive. So how is Trump less qualified than Obama? they're qualified in different ways.

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Originally Posted by Philippus Flavius Homovallumus

Before Obama became President he had essentially been an academic and a Senator, not any kind of executive. So how is Trump less qualified than Obama? they're qualified in different ways.

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Trump didn't really earn that, he was born into it. That's not a qualification, it's a privilege.
He may have learned a bit over time, but Xiahou already showed that he would be even richer now had he not touched his money with his decisions... If we're to judge his "qualification" based on that, he's a terrible executive.
Obama didn't need to prove his intelligence by pointing to his bank account because he didn't talk like a dumbass and didn't lie with every second sentence. I'm also not aware that Obama went bankrupt several times or earned less money than he would have if he had merely invested his base capital instead of squandering his profits with bad decisions.

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Trump apparently found room for both Busts.

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As per the article, he has temporarily moved the older bust from the private residence, where Obama kept it after it was repaired, to the Oval Office. It does not seem he will have both busts in the office at once. Meanwhile, Trump's overall design seems to be refashioning the office to mimic its appearance under W Bush, with some degree of influence from the Farage connection.

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So how is Trump less qualified than Obama?

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That's rather glib. Of course if we stretch our parameters wide enough we might discover many tens of thousands more or less qualified to hold high office compared to past holders. Any number of politicians, corporate executives, professors or generals. Has there ever been an unqualified candidate, in fact?

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Originally Posted by Philippus Flavius Homovallumus

I don't know about the US but in the UK "nonce" is the same as paedophile.

Why Idaho wanted to bring that up I don't know.

In other news, looks like Trump will be good for the UK.

Returning the bust of Winston Churchill to the Oval Office is a significant step, as much as Obama removing it and replacing it with one of Martin Luthor King was. The fact that he wants to play "Ronnie" to May's "Maggie" is also likely to benefit us.

Not that I expect him to ever put himself out for us, the "Special Relationship" has always been one-sided in that respect.

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Sadly it has. Once we chose to ignore Washington's advice and thereafter made the special relationship, it should have been two-ways and full tilt.

There is a segment of the American political right -- and Trumps support base overlaps this portion -- who would be fairly willing to tell the EU to sod off while maintaining closer ties with Blighty. Even our staunchest "dump NATO" types tend to add a caveat about signing a mutual defense with England.

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Originally Posted by Husar

Trump didn't really earn that, he was born into it. That's not a qualification, it's a privilege.
He may have learned a bit over time, but Xiahou already showed that he would be even richer now had he not touched his money with his decisions... If we're to judge his "qualification" based on that, he's a terrible executive.
Obama didn't need to prove his intelligence by pointing to his bank account because he didn't talk like a dumbass and didn't lie with every second sentence. I'm also not aware that Obama went bankrupt several times or earned less money than he would have if he had merely invested his base capital instead of squandering his profits with bad decisions.

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Making 10B is just a touch easier with a $100M starter loan than with 100K in school debt.

Well there are plenty of opportunities for those with a degree in gender studies, assuming they can find enough rubes whose own degree has overwhelmed with white guilt and whose parents haven't yet cut them off from daddy's money.

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Originally Posted by Husar

I don't think intelligence is a requirement to win an election.

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You bet it is! Look at George W. Bush.

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Originally Posted by Greyblades

Well there are plenty of opportunities for those with a degree in gender studies, assuming they can find enough rubes whose own degree has overwhelmed with white guilt and whose parents haven't yet cut them off from daddy's money.

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Gender studies aren't important. Researching societal flaws are not important. Providing assistance to members of the public who are categorically disadvantaged isn't important.

Also, didn't you complain about shi!posting a while ago and get the mods to make the Org politically correct again?

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Originally Posted by CrossLOPER

Gender studies aren't important. Researching societal flaws are not important. Providing assistance to members of the public who are categorically disadvantaged isn't important.

Also, didn't you complain about shi!posting a while ago and get the mods to make the Org politically correct again?

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No, I'm the person such pusilanimous weeds complain about.

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Originally Posted by Montmorency

As per the article, he has temporarily moved the older bust from the private residence, where Obama kept it after it was repaired, to the Oval Office. It does not seem he will have both busts in the office at once. Meanwhile, Trump's overall design seems to be refashioning the office to mimic its appearance under W Bush, with some degree of influence from the Farage connection.

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I meant, unlike Obama he's found a way to fit Churchill and MLK into the Oval Office - which apparently Obama was unable to do.

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That's rather glib. Of course if we stretch our parameters wide enough we might discover many tens of thousands more or less qualified to hold high office compared to past holders. Any number of politicians, corporate executives, professors or generals. Has there ever been an unqualified candidate, in fact?

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Not at all

As I understand it prior to running the US the only thing Obama had run was the Harvard Law Review (was that the one?) as a student. I recall Obama's first election when it was him against John McCain and an American friend here at the time observed that people who have only been Senators, as opposed to Governors, make bad Presidents.

Being a Legislator is rather different to being the Chief Executive of the United States Corporation.

Has Trump been an unmitigated success?

No - but he has had successes as an Executive and he worked out, unlike Clinton, how to appeal to the broadest possible coalition of American voters. He shattered the "Democratic Firewall" that' was supposed to give them an in-built advantage.

Does he say some off - colour things?

Yes.

However, if you look at what he says on torture, what he actually said is Intelligence Chiefs tell him they think it's effective and therefore he thinks it should be available. As opposed to former US Presidents who would swear the US NEVER uses torture whilst in a langley basement somewhere someone is having his fingers broken.

At least he's honest.

He's also demonstrating a number of things by following the advice of his spooks:

1. Delegation of responsibility to experts.

2. Backing up your subordinates, in public.

These are usually considered positive qualities in a leader - except in this case the issue is the use of torture.

Overall, I see no evidence he's "stupid", more that he just doesn't care what he detractors think and he gives unfiltered opinions.

You know a Liberal Comedian recently said she didn't want to interview Melania Trump because she can barely speak English? She apparently speaks six languages, but she's Slovenian and therefore clearly Euro-trash.

There's a word for that sort of opinion... can't put my finger on it, though...

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Originally Posted by Philippus Flavius Homovallumus

...You know a Liberal Comedian recently said she didn't want to interview Melania Trump because she can barely speak English? She apparently speaks six languages, but she's Slovenian and therefore clearly Euro-trash.

There's a word for that sort of opinion... can't put my finger on it, though...

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Reminds me of some of my fellow undergrads complaining about professor Hung years ago in my International Relations class. Thick Vietnamese accent so they dismissed him and his opinions. I talked with him a little and his colleagues more. English was his 4th language after Vietnamese, French, and a passable Cantonese... He'd been part of the South Vietnamese national police force, acquired two degrees before leaving Vietnam ahead of "the chop," and managed both a thesis and dissertation in his 4th language.

My countrymen, as a whole, are reasonably intelligent, but the level of self-developed ignorance is cloying at times.

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Originally Posted by Husar

Ahahahaha: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/pusilanimous



Ahahahaha, Greyblades can't write and if he complains that I laugh at him, he's just pusillanimous and PC, ahahahaha.... :laugh4:

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Don quoi?

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Originally Posted by Philippus Flavius Homovallumus

I meant, unlike Obama he's found a way to fit Churchill and MLK into the Oval Office - which apparently Obama was unable to do.



Not at all

As I understand it prior to running the US the only thing Obama had run was the Harvard Law Review (was that the one?) as a student. I recall Obama's first election when it was him against John McCain and an American friend here at the time observed that people who have only been Senators, as opposed to Governors, make bad Presidents.

Being a Legislator is rather different to being the Chief Executive of the United States Corporation.

Has Trump been an unmitigated success?

No - but he has had successes as an Executive and he worked out, unlike Clinton, how to appeal to the broadest possible coalition of American voters. He shattered the "Democratic Firewall" that' was supposed to give them an in-built advantage.

Does he say some off - colour things?

Yes.

However, if you look at what he says on torture, what he actually said is Intelligence Chiefs tell him they think it's effective and therefore he thinks it should be available. As opposed to former US Presidents who would swear the US NEVER uses torture whilst in a langley basement somewhere someone is having his fingers broken.

At least he's honest.

He's also demonstrating a number of things by following the advice of his spooks:

1. Delegation of responsibility to experts.

2. Backing up your subordinates, in public.

These are usually considered positive qualities in a leader - except in this case the issue is the use of torture.

Overall, I see no evidence he's "stupid", more that he just doesn't care what he detractors think and he gives unfiltered opinions.

You know a Liberal Comedian recently said she didn't want to interview Melania Trump because she can barely speak English? She apparently speaks six languages, but she's Slovenian and therefore clearly Euro-trash.

There's a word for that sort of opinion... can't put my finger on it, though...

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What you speak of seems to be bare minimum, so it doesn't say much as to qualifications compared to any number of other individuals.

As for torture, your two points are confusing, leaving aside that I would be very interested to see where you get the US intelligence community vouching for torture "working". By definition, any person in office will be delegating and supporting in some way, since there is indeed government besides the POTUS and one would have to go far out of their way to publicly undermine and contradict every possible subordinate.

In other words, you don't ever actually offer concrete qualifications.

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Originally Posted by Montmorency

What you speak of seems to be bare minimum, so it doesn't say much as to qualifications compared to any number of other individuals.

As for torture, your two points are confusing, leaving aside that I would be very interested to see where you get the US intelligence community vouching for torture "working". By definition, any person in office will be delegating and supporting in some way, since there is indeed government besides the POTUS and one would have to go far out of their way to publicly undermine and contradict every possible subordinate.

In other words, you don't ever actually offer concrete qualifications.

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I am only speaking in general terms, as I'm not an Intelligence Officer with a bug in the Oval Office.

Trump is saying his Intelligence Chiefs have told him torture works, so he is supporting it.

There are numerous examples of politicians, here and in the US, asking for expert opinions and then dismissing them.

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Originally Posted by Greyblades

No, I'm the person such pusilanimous weeds complain about.

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Originally Posted by Greyblades

Treat people as you are treated: easy.
Treat people as you want to be treated: hard.

We argue, but we dont respect each other very much, but the disrespect is limited. In the TWC's mudpit debators hold thier intellectual opponents in outright contempt.

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Is that there some of them "alternative facts" I keep hearing about?

Do you even know what shitposting is? Hell for that matter do you know what complaining is?

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Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh

Reminds me of some of my fellow undergrads complaining about professor Hung years ago in my International Relations class. Thick Vietnamese accent so they dismissed him and his opinions. I talked with him a little and his colleagues more. English was his 4th language after Vietnamese, French, and a passable Cantonese... He'd been part of the South Vietnamese national police force, acquired two degrees before leaving Vietnam ahead of "the chop," and managed both a thesis and dissertation in his 4th language.

My countrymen, as a whole, are reasonably intelligent, but the level of self-developed ignorance is cloying at times.

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Are you talking solely about Americans, or do you include your Anglo-Saxon kin as well? Because your description famously fits the British as well.

It's good to see you acknowledging your flaws.

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Originally Posted by Philippus Flavius Homovallumus

I meant, unlike Obama he's found a way to fit Churchill and MLK into the Oval Office - which apparently Obama was unable to do.



Not at all

As I understand it prior to running the US the only thing Obama had run was the Harvard Law Review (was that the one?) as a student. I recall Obama's first election when it was him against John McCain and an American friend here at the time observed that people who have only been Senators, as opposed to Governors, make bad Presidents.

Being a Legislator is rather different to being the Chief Executive of the United States Corporation.

Has Trump been an unmitigated success?

No - but he has had successes as an Executive and he worked out, unlike Clinton, how to appeal to the broadest possible coalition of American voters. He shattered the "Democratic Firewall" that' was supposed to give them an in-built advantage.

Does he say some off - colour things?

Yes.

However, if you look at what he says on torture, what he actually said is Intelligence Chiefs tell him they think it's effective and therefore he thinks it should be available. As opposed to former US Presidents who would swear the US NEVER uses torture whilst in a langley basement somewhere someone is having his fingers broken.

At least he's honest.

He's also demonstrating a number of things by following the advice of his spooks:

1. Delegation of responsibility to experts.

2. Backing up your subordinates, in public.

These are usually considered positive qualities in a leader - except in this case the issue is the use of torture.

Overall, I see no evidence he's "stupid", more that he just doesn't care what he detractors think and he gives unfiltered opinions.

You know a Liberal Comedian recently said she didn't want to interview Melania Trump because she can barely speak English? She apparently speaks six languages, but she's Slovenian and therefore clearly Euro-trash.

There's a word for that sort of opinion... can't put my finger on it, though...

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You're thinking of the R-word, but I'd attribute it more to pseudo-HIGNFY "wit", that affects some kind of supposedly intelligent world weariness and cynicism, and dismisses people with one liners. The difference is, the HIGNFY crew do their research. These would be political wits don't, yet dismiss expert opinions with a single line, usually in the format: "They [insert activity here]. How can we take them seriously?". The peak of this isn't some liberal comedian, but that Tory politician, Michael Gove.

"People in this country have had enough of experts."

The problem is liberal democracy at its extreme. People assert their rights (liberalism), but accept no responsibility. They rest on the knowledge that their vote is worth as much as any expert's with decades of experience in their field (democracy). The problem isn't solely confined to the Left or the Right.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Greyblades

Don quoi?

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Female ginseng?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Philippus Flavius Homovallumus

I am only speaking in general terms, as I'm not an Intelligence Officer with a bug in the Oval Office.

Trump is saying his Intelligence Chiefs have told him torture works, so he is supporting it.

There are numerous examples of politicians, here and in the US, asking for expert opinions and then dismissing them.

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I almost find it unfair to push this quibble, but I was pointing out that as an absolute the two qualities you noted while referring to torture (again putting aside what the actual intelligence community positions are or were), delegating responsibility and supporting subordinates, are not in the way you raised them qualities sought after in a leader - rather, they are qualities intrinsic to being a leader, since they only require any normal human activity in the absence of solipsism. You did not speak to degree or nature of the qualities, merely listing their presence, but as such you're only speaking in tautologies.

And to be sure, there are many expert opinions Trump is happy to dismiss. But by no means can a leader be obliged to or even hope to accommodate every opinion.

So an argument for competence or qualification has to come down to the character and the events through which it is mediated, not apparitions of the latent. For the torture example alone, this would mean arguing from the virtue or value of the specific case and not the fact that it involves the basics of living in a world with other actors.

Here is some good reading from Nate Silver on how the media dropped the ball during the election.
https://fivethirtyeight.com/tag/the-real-story-of-2016/

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Pannonian

Are you talking solely about Americans, or do you include your Anglo-Saxon kin as well? Because your description famously fits the British as well.

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Having spent a grand total of 50 hours in "Blighty," and 16 or so of those hours having been devoted to...er...sleep whilst on my honeymoon, I do not think I can summarize my English cousins, so I pitched my comment only about my fellow yanks. I would admit to not being stunned at your concurrence for your side of the pond. Apples and trees and all that.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Greyblades

Do you even know what shitposting is? Hell for that matter do you know what complaining is?

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Why don't you explain those to me in the form of tired memes and fox news punditry?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CrossLOPER

Why don't you explain those to me in the form of tired memes and fox news punditry?

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How sad is it that there are people whose entire reality is built around memes.

It is so cool that I cannot visit my friend in the US now. But I guess that is what I deserve for being a terrorist. So thanks, whoever voted for that ridiculous pompous man.


Thanks for letting me know that nothing I ever do, will ever absolve me from being born in the wrong place.

I eagerly await to see how many of those itty-bitty European Trumps will also promise to implement this distasteful discrimination in their countries.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Greyblades

Do you even know what shitposting is? Hell for that matter do you know what complaining is?

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by CrossLOPER

Why don't you explain those to me in the form of tired memes ?

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Perhaps I can do it:
Attachment 19420

In the interest of clarity on immigration and refugee issues for the new Administration. Note herein:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Trump Executive Order

BORDER SECURITY AND IMMIGRATION ENFORCEMENT IMPROVEMENTS

By the authority vested in me as President by the Constitution and the laws of the United States of America, including the Immigration and Nationality Act (8 U.S.C. 1101 et seq.) (INA), the Secure Fence Act of 2006 (Public Law 109?367) (Secure Fence Act), and the Illegal Immigration Reform and Immigrant Responsibility Act of 1996 (Public Law 104?208 Div. C) (IIRIRA), and in order to ensure the safety and territorial integrity of the United States as well as to ensure that the Nation’s immigration laws are faithfully executed, I hereby order as follows:
Section 1. Purpose. Border security is critically important to the national security of the United States. Aliens who illegally enter the United States without inspection or admission present a significant threat to national security and public safety. Such aliens have not been identified or inspected by Federal immigration officers to determine their admissibility to the United States. The recent surge of illegal immigration at the southern border with Mexico has placed a significant strain on Federal resources and overwhelmed agencies charged with border security and immigration enforcement, as well as the local communities into which many of the aliens are placed.
Transnational criminal organizations operate sophisticated drug- and human-trafficking networks and smuggling operations on both sides of the southern border, contributing to a significant increase in violent crime and United States deaths from dangerous drugs. Among those who illegally enter are those who seek to harm Americans through acts of terror or criminal conduct. Continued illegal immigration presents a clear and present danger to the interests of the United States.
Federal immigration law both imposes the responsibility and provides the means for the Federal Government, in cooperation with border States, to secure the Nation’s southern border. Although Federal immigration law provides a robust framework for Federal-State partnership in enforcing our immigration laws ?? and the Congress has authorized and provided appropriations to secure our borders ?? the Federal Government has failed to discharge this basic sovereign responsibility. The purpose of this order is to direct executive departments and agencies (agencies) to deploy all lawful means to secure the Nation’s southern border, to prevent further illegal immigration into the United States, and to repatriate illegal aliens swiftly, consistently, and humanely.

Sec. 2. Policy. It is the policy of the executive branch to:
(a) secure the southern border of the United States through the immediate construction of a physical wall on the southern border, monitored and supported by adequate personnel so as to prevent illegal immigration, drug and human trafficking, and acts of terrorism;
(b) detain individuals apprehended on suspicion of violating Federal or State law, including Federal immigration law, pending further proceedings regarding those violations;
(c) expedite determinations of apprehended individuals’ claims of eligibility to remain in the United States;
(d) remove promptly those individuals whose legal claims to remain in the United States have been lawfully rejected, after any appropriate civil or criminal sanctions have been imposed; and
(e) cooperate fully with States and local law enforcement in enacting Federal-State partnerships to enforce Federal immigration priorities, as well as State monitoring and detention programs that are consistent with Federal law and do not undermine Federal immigration priorities.


Sec. 3. Definitions. (a) “Asylum officer” has the meaning given the term in section 235(b)(1)(E) of the INA (8 U.S.C. 1225(b)(1)).
(b) “Southern border” shall mean the contiguous land border between the United States and Mexico, including all points of entry.
(c) “Border States” shall mean the States of the United States immediately adjacent to the contiguous land border between the United States and Mexico.
(d) Except as otherwise noted, “the Secretary” shall refer to the Secretary of Homeland Security.
(e) “Wall” shall mean a contiguous, physical wall or other similarly secure, contiguous, and impassable physical barrier.
(f) “Executive department” shall have the meaning given in section 101 of title 5, United States Code.
(g) “Regulations” shall mean any and all Federal rules, regulations, and directives lawfully promulgated by agencies.
(h) “Operational control” shall mean the prevention of all unlawful entries into the United States, including entries by terrorists, other unlawful aliens, instruments of terrorism, narcotics, and other contraband.

Sec. 4. Physical Security of the Southern Border of the United States. The Secretary shall immediately take the following steps to obtain complete operational control, as determined by the Secretary, of the southern border:
(a) In accordance with existing law, including the Secure Fence Act and IIRIRA, take all appropriate steps to immediately plan, design, and construct a physical wall along the southern border, using appropriate materials and technology to most effectively achieve complete operational control of the southern border;
(b) Identify and, to the extent permitted by law, allocate all sources of Federal funds for the planning, designing, and constructing of a physical wall along the southern border;
(c) Project and develop long-term funding requirements for the wall, including preparing Congressional budget requests for the current and upcoming fiscal years; and
(d) Produce a comprehensive study of the security of the southern border, to be completed within 180 days of this order, that shall include the current state of southern border security, all geophysical and topographical aspects of the southern border, the availability of Federal and State resources necessary to achieve complete operational control of the southern border, and a strategy to obtain and maintain complete operational control of the southern border.

Sec. 5. Detention Facilities. (a) The Secretary shall take all appropriate action and allocate all legally available resources to immediately construct, operate, control, or establish contracts to construct, operate, or control facilities to detain aliens at or near the land border with Mexico.
(b) The Secretary shall take all appropriate action and allocate all legally available resources to immediately assign asylum officers to immigration detention facilities for the purpose of accepting asylum referrals and conducting credible fear determinations pursuant to section 235(b)(1) of the INA (8 U.S.C. 1225(b)(1)) and applicable regulations and reasonable fear determinations pursuant to applicable regulations.
(c) The Attorney General shall take all appropriate action and allocate all legally available resources to immediately assign immigration judges to immigration detention facilities operated or controlled by the Secretary, or operated or controlled pursuant to contract by the Secretary, for the purpose of conducting proceedings authorized under title 8, chapter 12, subchapter II, United States Code.

Sec. 6. Detention for Illegal Entry. The Secretary shall immediately take all appropriate actions to ensure the detention of aliens apprehended for violations of immigration law pending the outcome of their removal proceedings or their removal from the country to the extent permitted by law. The Secretary shall issue new policy guidance to all Department of Homeland Security personnel regarding the appropriate and consistent use of lawful detention authority under the INA, including the termination of the practice commonly known as “catch and release,” whereby aliens are routinely released in the United States shortly after their apprehension for violations of immigration law.

Sec. 7. Return to Territory. The Secretary shall take appropriate action, consistent with the requirements of section 1232 of title 8, United States Code, to ensure that aliens described in section 235(b)(2)(C) of the INA (8 U.S.C. 1225(b)(2)(C)) are returned to the territory from which they came pending a formal removal proceeding.

Sec. 8. Additional Border Patrol Agents. Subject to available appropriations, the Secretary, through the Commissioner of U.S. Customs and Border Protection, shall take all appropriate action to hire 5,000 additional Border Patrol agents, and all appropriate action to ensure that such agents enter on duty and are assigned to duty stations as soon as is practicable.

Sec. 9. Foreign Aid Reporting Requirements. The head of each executive department and agency shall identify and quantify all sources of direct and indirect Federal aid or assistance to the Government of Mexico on an annual basis over the past five years, including all bilateral and multilateral development aid, economic assistance, humanitarian aid, and military aid. Within 30 days of the date of this order, the head of each executive department and agency shall submit this information to the Secretary of State. Within 60 days of the date of this order, the Secretary shall submit to the President a consolidated report reflecting the levels of such aid and assistance that has been provided annually, over each of the past five years.

Sec. 10. Federal-State Agreements. It is the policy of the executive branch to empower State and local law enforcement agencies across the country to perform the functions of an immigration officer in the interior of the United States to the maximum extent permitted by law.
(a) In furtherance of this policy, the Secretary shall immediately take appropriate action to engage with the Governors of the States, as well as local officials, for the purpose of preparing to enter into agreements under section 287(g) of the INA (8 U.S.C. 1357(g)).
(b) To the extent permitted by law, and with the consent of State or local officials, as appropriate, the Secretary shall take appropriate action, through agreements under section 287(g) of the INA, or otherwise, to authorize State and local law enforcement officials, as the Secretary determines are qualified and appropriate, to perform the functions of immigration officers in relation to the investigation, apprehension, or detention of aliens in the United States under the direction and the supervision of the Secretary. Such authorization shall be in addition to, rather than in place of, Federal performance of these duties.
(c) To the extent permitted by law, the Secretary may structure each agreement under section 287(g) of the INA in the manner that provides the most effective model for enforcing Federal immigration laws and obtaining operational control over the border for that jurisdiction.

Sec. 11. Parole, Asylum, and Removal. It is the policy of the executive branch to end the abuse of parole and asylum provisions currently used to prevent the lawful removal of removable aliens.
(a) The Secretary shall immediately take all appropriate action to ensure that the parole and asylum provisions of Federal immigration law are not illegally exploited to prevent the removal of otherwise removable aliens.
(b) The Secretary shall take all appropriate action, including by promulgating any appropriate regulations, to ensure that asylum referrals and credible fear determinations pursuant to section 235(b)(1) of the INA (8 U.S.C. 1125(b)(1)) and 8 CFR 208.30, and reasonable fear determinations pursuant to 8 CFR 208.31, are conducted in a manner consistent with the plain language of those provisions.
(c) Pursuant to section 235(b)(1)(A)(iii)(I) of the INA, the Secretary shall take appropriate action to apply, in his sole and unreviewable discretion, the provisions of section 235(b)(1)(A)(i) and (ii) of the INA to the aliens designated under section 235(b)(1)(A)(iii)(II).
(d) The Secretary shall take appropriate action to ensure that parole authority under section 212(d)(5) of the INA (8 U.S.C. 1182(d)(5)) is exercised only on a case-by-case basis in accordance with the plain language of the statute, and in all circumstances only when an individual demonstrates urgent humanitarian reasons or a significant public benefit derived from such parole.
(e) The Secretary shall take appropriate action to require that all Department of Homeland Security personnel are properly trained on the proper application of section 235 of the William Wilberforce Trafficking Victims Protection Reauthorization Act of 2008 (8 U.S.C. 1232) and section 462(g)(2) of the Homeland Security Act of 2002 (6 U.S.C. 279(g)(2)), to ensure that unaccompanied alien children are properly processed, receive appropriate care and placement while in the custody of the Department of Homeland Security, and, when appropriate, are safely repatriated in accordance with law.

Sec. 12. Authorization to Enter Federal Lands. The Secretary, in conjunction with the Secretary of the Interior and any other heads of agencies as necessary, shall take all appropriate action to:
(a) permit all officers and employees of the United States, as well as all State and local officers as authorized by the Secretary, to have access to all Federal lands as necessary and appropriate to implement this order; and
(b) enable those officers and employees of the United States, as well as all State and local officers as authorized by the Secretary, to perform such actions on Federal lands as the Secretary deems necessary and appropriate to implement this order.

Sec. 13. Priority Enforcement. The Attorney General shall take all appropriate steps to establish prosecution guidelines and allocate appropriate resources to ensure that Federal prosecutors accord a high priority to prosecutions of offenses having a nexus to the southern border.

Sec. 14. Government Transparency. The Secretary shall, on a monthly basis and in a publicly available way, report statistical data on aliens apprehended at or near the southern border using a uniform method of reporting by all Department of Homeland Security components, in a format that is easily understandable by the public.

Sec. 15. Reporting. Except as otherwise provided in this order, the Secretary, within 90 days of the date of this order, and the Attorney General, within 180 days, shall each submit to the President a report on the progress of the directives contained in this order.

Sec. 16. Hiring. The Office of Personnel Management shall take appropriate action as may be necessary to facilitate hiring personnel to implement this order.

Sec. 17. General Provisions. (a) Nothing in this order shall be construed to impair or otherwise affect:
(i) the authority granted by law to an executive department or agency, or the head thereof; or
(ii) the functions of the Director of the Office of Management and Budget relating to budgetary, administrative, or legislative proposals.
(b) This order shall be implemented consistent with applicable law and subject to the availability of appropriations.
(c) This order is not intended to, and does not, create any right or benefit, substantive or procedural, enforceable at law or in equity by any party against the United States, its departments, agencies, or entities, its officers, employees, or agents, or any other person.

DONALD J. TRUMP

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The projected order on refugees from the general vicinity of the Middle East is as follows.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by FOX News US

WASHINGTON – President Donald Trump on Friday intended to sign an executive action Friday temporarily halting the flow of refugees into the United Sates and stopping all entries from some majority-Muslim nations, his spokesman said.
A draft of the order obtained by The Associated Press also includes an indefinite ban on accepting Syrian refugees, and the pause in the broader refugee program extends for 120 days.
Trump campaigned on a pledge to put in place "extreme vetting" procedures particularly for people coming to the U.S. from countries with terrorism ties. According to the draft order, the president plans to suspend issuing visas for people from Iran, Iraq, Libya, Somalia, Sudan, Syria or Yemen for at least 30 days.
White House spokesman Sean Spicer said Trump intended to sign the order during a Friday afternoon visit to the Pentagon, along with actions related to military readiness and the National Security Council. Details of those directives were not immediately clear.
While at the Pentagon, Trump was expected to meet with the Joint Chiefs of Staff and attend a ceremonial swearing-in for Defense Secretary James Mattis.
Trump has the authority to determine how many refugees are accepted annually; he can suspend the program at any time. Refugee processing was suspended in the immediate aftermath of the Sept. 11 attacks and restarted months later.
During the last budget year, the U.S. accepted 84,995 refugees, including 12,587 people from Syria. President Barack Obama had set the refugee limit for this budget year at 110,000.
Trump, according to the impending executive order, planned to cut that program by more half to 50,000. The draft order said while the program is suspended, the U.S. may admit people on a case-by-case basis "when in the national interest" and the government would continue to process refugee requests from people claiming religious persecution, "provided that the religion ... is a minority religion in the individual's country." That suggests that would allow the admission of Christians from Muslim-majority countries.

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Quote:

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(d) Produce a comprehensive study of the security of the southern border, to be completed within 180 days of this order, that shall include the current state of southern border security, all geophysical and topographical aspects of the southern border, the availability of Federal and State resources necessary to achieve complete operational control of the southern border, and a strategy to obtain and maintain complete operational control of the southern border.

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Should be interesting.

Quote:

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Sec. 13. Priority Enforcement. The Attorney General shall take all appropriate steps to establish prosecution guidelines and allocate appropriate resources to ensure that Federal prosecutors accord a high priority to prosecutions of offenses having a nexus to the southern border.

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sigh

Quote:

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A draft of the order obtained by The Associated Press also includes an indefinite ban on accepting Syrian refugees, and the pause in the broader refugee program extends for 120 days.

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By the "broader refugee program", I assume that covers all refugees to be admitted for residency or citizenship (leaving aside the noted special exceptions). Does it cover all pending dossiers as well? Ironically then individuals who have been traveling the procedure for months or years will be put in bureaucratic limbo for the ostensible inadequacy of vetting procedures for a specific class of applicants.

Tell us when he makes a decision on extraditions, perhaps of the Turkish Gulen, or of some Russian dissidents as there may be... :clown:

Trump is an insane little troll. The real problem now though is state governments and the (remaining) federal gov't being emboldened by his buffoonery. He has surrounded himself with racists and corporatists. That's where the problem lies. Phillip talks about deferring to experts: that does us no good if those experts end game is detrimental to everyone other than the upper class.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Strike For The South

Trump is an insane little troll. The real problem now though is state governments and the (remaining) federal gov't being emboldened by his buffoonery. He has surrounded himself with racists and corporatists. That's where the problem lies. Phillip talks about deferring to experts: that does us no good if those experts end game is detrimental to everyone other than the upper class.

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Pretty much. Rex Tillerson at least is in fact qualified to be on the Cabinet, but...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Montmorency

Pretty much. Rex Tillerson at least is in fact qualified to be on the Cabinet, but...

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I'm sure all the Cabinet candidates are fully qualified; you simply have to examine the alternative facts.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Montmorency

I almost find it unfair to push this quibble, but I was pointing out that as an absolute the two qualities you noted while referring to torture (again putting aside what the actual intelligence community positions are or were), delegating responsibility and supporting subordinates, are not in the way you raised them qualities sought after in a leader - rather, they are qualities intrinsic to being a leader, since they only require any normal human activity in the absence of solipsism. You did not speak to degree or nature of the qualities, merely listing their presence, but as such you're only speaking in tautologies.

And to be sure, there are many expert opinions Trump is happy to dismiss. But by no means can a leader be obliged to or even hope to accommodate every opinion.

So an argument for competence or qualification has to come down to the character and the events through which it is mediated, not apparitions of the latent. For the torture example alone, this would mean arguing from the virtue or value of the specific case and not the fact that it involves the basics of living in a world with other actors.

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Some Politicians, notably Michale Gove, don't ever listen to anyone - and they believe they should run a country.

Today Trump has said he's now inclined not to support Waterboarding because although he believes its useful his incoming head of the CIA is apparently not a fan. The point is that Trump makes a point of defering to "his team" rather than presenting himself as the Man Who Makes all the Decisions.

That he makes a point of illustrating this, repeatedly, shows he believes it's an part of being President - he's emphasising that he delegates and co-operates. This may be genuine or it may be a stylistic choice, but it's clear Trump is pitching himself as a manager or "CEO" as much as a leader.

Compare to Theresa May - who frequently rides roughshod over her own cabinet and the devolved Administrations - notably declaring the UK would leave the Single Market before said Devolved Administrations had a chance to formally meet and present their views.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Strike For The South

Trump is an insane little troll. The real problem now though is state governments and the (remaining) federal gov't being emboldened by his buffoonery. He has surrounded himself with racists and corporatists. That's where the problem lies. Phillip talks about deferring to experts: that does us no good if those experts end game is detrimental to everyone other than the upper class.

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Trump is not going to be a Good President, I think, but the more I think about Obama the more I think he was very much Style of Substance. The fact that Trump managed to behead his vaunted domestic "Legacy" with a few strokes of his pen demonstrates this. The collapse of the Democratic Party also has to be partly Obama's responsibility as his lack of leadership of said party meant that his electoral success did not translate into their electoral success.

Also, you spell my name with two L's.

-1,000,000,000 Internets.

Wait, are we doing the obama's performance review allready?

Smeg, I had a video about this... ah here we go:

Warning profilitic swearing and extreme bellicosity.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fetZRj0V-MQ

3, 2, 1...

Here is the text of the order regarding refugees:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CNN

PROTECTING THE NATION FROM FOREIGN TERRORIST ENTRY INTO THE UNITED STATES

By the authority vested in me as President by the Constitution and laws of the United States of America, including the Immigration and Nationality Act (INA), 8 U.S.C. 1101 et seq., and section 301 of title 3, United States Code, and to protect the American people from terrorist attacks by foreign nationals admitted to the United States, it is hereby ordered as follows:

Section 1. Purpose. The visa-issuance process plays a crucial role in detecting individuals with terrorist ties and stopping them from entering the United States. Perhaps in no instance was that more apparent than the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001, when State Department policy prevented consular officers from properly scrutinizing the visa applications of several of the 19 foreign nationals who went on to murder nearly 3,000 Americans. And while the visa-issuance process was reviewed and amended after the September 11 attacks to better detect would-be terrorists from receiving visas, these measures did not stop attacks by foreign nationals who were admitted to the United States.
Numerous foreign-born individuals have been convicted or implicated in terrorism-related crimes since September 11, 2001, including foreign nationals who entered the United States after receiving visitor, student, or employment visas, or who entered through the United States refugee resettlement program. Deteriorating conditions in certain countries due to war, strife, disaster, and civil unrest increase the likelihood that terrorists will use any means possible to enter the United States. The United States must be vigilant during the visa-issuance process to ensure that those approved for admission do not intend to harm Americans and that they have no ties to terrorism.
In order to protect Americans, the United States must ensure that those admitted to this country do not bear hostile attitudes toward it and its founding principles. The United States cannot, and should not, admit those who do not support the Constitution, or those who would place violent ideologies over American law. In addition, the United States should not admit those who engage in acts of bigotry or hatred (including "honor" killings, other forms of violence against women, or the persecution of those who practice religions different from their own) or those who would oppress Americans of any race, gender, or sexual orientation.

Sec. 2. Policy. It is the policy of the United States to protect its citizens from foreign nationals who intend to commit terrorist attacks in the United States; and to prevent the admission of foreign nationals who intend to exploit United States immigration laws for malevolent purposes.

Sec. 3. Suspension of Issuance of Visas and Other Immigration Benefits to Nationals of Countries of Particular Concern. (a) The Secretary of Homeland Security, in consultation with the Secretary of State and the Director of National Intelligence, shall immediately conduct a review to determine the information needed from any country to adjudicate any visa, admission, or other benefit under the INA (adjudications) in order to determine that the individual seeking the benefit is who the individual claims to be and is not a security or public-safety threat.
(b) The Secretary of Homeland Security, in consultation with the Secretary of State and the Director of National Intelligence, shall submit to the President a report on the results of the review described in subsection (a) of this section, including the Secretary of Homeland Security's determination of the information needed for adjudications and a list of countries that do not provide adequate information, within 30 days of the date of this order. The Secretary of Homeland Security shall provide a copy of the report to the Secretary of State and the Director of National Intelligence.
(c) To temporarily reduce investigative burdens on relevant agencies during the review period described in subsection (a) of this section, to ensure the proper review and maximum utilization of available resources for the screening of foreign nationals, and to ensure that adequate standards are established to prevent infiltration by foreign terrorists or criminals, pursuant to section 212(f) of the INA, 8 U.S.C. 1182(f), I hereby proclaim that the immigrant and nonimmigrant entry into the United States of aliens from countries referred to in section 217(a)(12) of the INA, 8 U.S.C. 1187(a)(12), would be detrimental to the interests of the United States, and I hereby suspend entry into the United States, as immigrants and nonimmigrants, of such persons for 90 days from the date of this order (excluding those foreign nationals traveling on diplomatic visas, North Atlantic Treaty Organization visas, C-2 visas for travel to the United Nations, and G-1, G-2, G-3, and G-4 visas).
(d) Immediately upon receipt of the report described in subsection (b) of this section regarding the information needed for adjudications, the Secretary of State shall request all foreign governments that do not supply such information to start providing such information regarding their nationals within 60 days of notification.
(e) After the 60-day period described in subsection (d) of this section expires, the Secretary of Homeland Security, in consultation with the Secretary of State, shall submit to the President a list of countries recommended for inclusion on a Presidential proclamation that would prohibit the entry of foreign nationals (excluding those foreign nationals traveling on diplomatic visas, North Atlantic Treaty Organization visas, C-2 visas for travel to the United Nations, and G-1, G-2, G-3, and G-4 visas) from countries that do not provide the information requested pursuant to subsection (d) of this section until compliance occurs.
(f) At any point after submitting the list described in subsection (e) of this section, the Secretary of State or the Secretary of Homeland Security may submit to the President the names of any additional countries recommended for similar treatment.
(g) Notwithstanding a suspension pursuant to subsection (c) of this section or pursuant to a Presidential proclamation described in subsection (e) of this section, the Secretaries of State and Homeland Security may, on a case-by-case basis, and when in the national interest, issue visas or other immigration benefits to nationals of countries for which visas and benefits are otherwise blocked.
(h) The Secretaries of State and Homeland Security shall submit to the President a joint report on the progress in implementing this order within 30 days of the date of this order, a second report within 60 days of the date of this order, a third report within 90 days of the date of this order, and a fourth report within 120 days of the date of this order.

Sec. 4. Implementing Uniform Screening Standards for All Immigration Programs. (a) The Secretary of State, the Secretary of Homeland Security, the Director of National Intelligence, and the Director of the Federal Bureau of Investigation shall implement a program, as part of the adjudication process for immigration benefits, to identify individuals seeking to enter the United States on a fraudulent basis with the intent to cause harm, or who are at risk of causing harm subsequent to their admission. This program will include the development of a uniform screening standard and procedure, such as in-person interviews; a database of identity documents proffered by applicants to ensure that duplicate documents are not used by multiple applicants; amended application forms that include questions aimed at identifying fraudulent answers and malicious intent; a mechanism to ensure that the applicant is who the applicant claims to be; a process to evaluate the applicant's likelihood of becoming a positively contributing member of society and the applicant's ability to make contributions to the national interest; and a mechanism to assess whether or not the applicant has the intent to commit criminal or terrorist acts after entering the United States.
(b) The Secretary of Homeland Security, in conjunction with the Secretary of State, the Director of National Intelligence, and the Director of the Federal Bureau of Investigation, shall submit to the President an initial report on the progress of this directive within 60 days of the date of this order, a second report within 100 days of the date of this order, and a third report within 200 days of the date of this order.

Sec. 5. Realignment of the U.S. Refugee Admissions Program for Fiscal Year 2017. (a) The Secretary of State shall suspend the U.S. Refugee Admissions Program (USRAP) for 120 days. During the 120-day period, the Secretary of State, in conjunction with the Secretary of Homeland Security and in consultation with the Director of National Intelligence, shall review the USRAP application and adjudication process to determine what additional procedures should be taken to ensure that those approved for refugee admission do not pose a threat to the security and welfare of the United States, and shall implement such additional procedures. Refugee applicants who are already in the USRAP process may be admitted upon the initiation and completion of these revised procedures. Upon the date that is 120 days after the date of this order, the Secretary of State shall resume USRAP admissions only for nationals of countries for which the Secretary of State, the Secretary of Homeland Security, and the Director of National Intelligence have jointly determined that such additional procedures are adequate to ensure the security and welfare of the United States.
(b) Upon the resumption of USRAP admissions, the Secretary of State, in consultation with the Secretary of Homeland Security, is further directed to make changes, to the extent permitted by law, to prioritize refugee claims made by individuals on the basis of religious-based persecution, provided that the religion of the individual is a minority religion in the individual's country of nationality. Where necessary and appropriate, the Secretaries of State and Homeland Security shall recommend legislation to the President that would assist with such prioritization.
(c) Pursuant to section 212(f) of the INA, 8 U.S.C. 1182(f), I hereby proclaim that the entry of nationals of Syria as refugees is detrimental to the interests of the United States and thus suspend any such entry until such time as I have determined that sufficient changes have been made to the USRAP to ensure that admission of Syrian refugees is consistent with the national interest.
(d) Pursuant to section 212(f) of the INA, 8 U.S.C. 1182(f), I hereby proclaim that the entry of more than 50,000 refugees in fiscal year 2017 would be detrimental to the interests of the United States, and thus suspend any such entry until such time as I determine that additional admissions would be in the national interest.
(e) Notwithstanding the temporary suspension imposed pursuant to subsection (a) of this section, the Secretaries of State and Homeland Security may jointly determine to admit individuals to the United States as refugees on a case-by-case basis, in their discretion, but only so long as they determine that the admission of such individuals as refugees is in the national interest -- including when the person is a religious minority in his country of nationality facing religious persecution, when admitting the person would enable the United States to conform its conduct to a preexisting international agreement, or when the person is already in transit and denying admission would cause undue hardship -- and it would not pose a risk to the security or welfare of the United States.
(f) The Secretary of State shall submit to the President an initial report on the progress of the directive in subsection (b) of this section regarding prioritization of claims made by individuals on the basis of religious-based persecution within 100 days of the date of this order and shall submit a second report within 200 days of the date of this order.
(g) It is the policy of the executive branch that, to the extent permitted by law and as practicable, State and local jurisdictions be granted a role in the process of determining the placement or settlement in their jurisdictions of aliens eligible to be admitted to the United States as refugees. To that end, the Secretary of Homeland Security shall examine existing law to determine the extent to which, consistent with applicable law, State and local jurisdictions may have greater involvement in the process of determining the placement or resettlement of refugees in their jurisdictions, and shall devise a proposal to lawfully promote such involvement.

Sec. 6. Rescission of Exercise of Authority Relating to the Terrorism Grounds of Inadmissibility. The Secretaries of State and Homeland Security shall, in consultation with the Attorney General, consider rescinding the exercises of authority in section 212 of the INA, 8 U.S.C. 1182, relating to the terrorism grounds of inadmissibility, as well as any related implementing memoranda.

Sec. 7. Expedited Completion of the Biometric Entry-Exit Tracking System. (a) The Secretary of Homeland Security shall expedite the completion and implementation of a biometric entry-exit tracking system for all travelers to the United States, as recommended by the National Commission on Terrorist Attacks Upon the United States.
(b) The Secretary of Homeland Security shall submit to the President periodic reports on the progress of the directive contained in subsection (a) of this section. The initial report shall be submitted within 100 days of the date of this order, a second report shall be submitted within 200 days of the date of this order, and a third report shall be submitted within 365 days of the date of this order. Further, the Secretary shall submit a report every 180 days thereafter until the system is fully deployed and operational.

Sec. 8. Visa Interview Security. (a) The Secretary of State shall immediately suspend the Visa Interview Waiver Program and ensure compliance with section 222 of the INA, 8 U.S.C. 1222, which requires that all individuals seeking a nonimmigrant visa undergo an in-person interview, subject to specific statutory exceptions.
(b) To the extent permitted by law and subject to the availability of appropriations, the Secretary of State shall immediately expand the Consular Fellows Program, including by substantially increasing the number of Fellows, lengthening or making permanent the period of service, and making language training at the Foreign Service Institute available to Fellows for assignment to posts outside of their area of core linguistic ability, to ensure that non-immigrant visa-interview wait times are not unduly affected.

Sec. 9. Visa Validity Reciprocity. The Secretary of State shall review all nonimmigrant visa reciprocity agreements to ensure that they are, with respect to each visa classification, truly reciprocal insofar as practicable with respect to validity period and fees, as required by sections 221(c) and 281 of the INA, 8 U.S.C. 1201(c) and 1351, and other treatment. If a country does not treat United States nationals seeking nonimmigrant visas in a reciprocal manner, the Secretary of State shall adjust the visa validity period, fee schedule, or other treatment to match the treatment of United States nationals by the foreign country, to the extent practicable.

Sec. 10. Transparency and Data Collection. (a) To be more transparent with the American people, and to more effectively implement policies and practices that serve the national interest, the Secretary of Homeland Security, in consultation with the Attorney General, shall, consistent with applicable law and national security, collect and make publicly available within 180 days, and every 180 days thereafter:
(i) information regarding the number of foreign nationals in the United States who have been charged with terrorism-related offenses while in the United States; convicted of terrorism-related offenses while in the United States; or removed from the United States based on terrorism-related activity, affiliation, or material support to a terrorism-related organization, or any other national security reasons since the date of this order or the last reporting period, whichever is later;
(ii) information regarding the number of foreign nationals in the United States who have been radicalized after entry into the United States and engaged in terrorism-related acts, or who have provided material support to terrorism-related organizations in countries that pose a threat to the United States, since the date of this order or the last reporting period, whichever is later; and
(iii) information regarding the number and types of acts of gender-based violence against women, including honor killings, in the United States by foreign nationals, since the date of this order or the last reporting period, whichever is later; and
(iv) any other information relevant to public safety and security as determined by the Secretary of Homeland Security and the Attorney General, including information on the immigration status of foreign nationals charged with major offenses.
(b) The Secretary of State shall, within one year of the date of this order, provide a report on the estimated long-term costs of the USRAP at the Federal, State, and local levels.

Sec. 11. General Provisions. (a) Nothing in this order shall be construed to impair or otherwise affect:
(i) the authority granted by law to an executive department or agency, or the head thereof; or
(ii) the functions of the Director of the Office of Management and Budget relating to budgetary, administrative, or legislative proposals.
(b) This order shall be implemented consistent with applicable law and subject to the availability of appropriations.
(c) This order is not intended to, and does not, create any right or benefit, substantive or procedural, enforceable at law or in equity by any party against the United States, its departments, agencies, or entities, its officers, employees, or agents, or any other person.

DONALD J. TRUMP
THE WHITE HOUSE, January 27, 2017

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Nonimmigrant visas can be cancelled instantly for failure to appear in court, even for minor traffic offenses. That there are no warnings from any foreign embassies in the US over this is scary. At least let people know. Other than that, this was the easiest visa renewal for me. Seems like business as usual for nonimmigrant visas from what I see, besides the racial profiling order and the new deportation laws.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Greyblades

Wait, are we doing the obama's performance review allready?

Smeg, I had a video about this... ah here we go:

Warning profilitic swearing and extreme bellicosity.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fetZRj0V-MQ

3, 2, 1...

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The one thing I like about that youtuber is that he has proven that any cretin with an over-inflated sense of self-worth enjoying permanent residence in mom's guestroom can gain followers just by setting up a webcam and applying a shitty filter over the footage and filming yourself rambling about absolutely nothing. He's so monotonous that you can take any video and slap any label on it and no one would be able to differentiate it from any other in his library.

He reminds of the guy who sports a mountain man beard and wears a beanie in front of his wall of games. I can't remember that guy's name, but I think he does rageaholic's job much better.

Man, you can set your watch on your tirades.