Viking Age: Total War!

Viking Age: Total War

Game will start in the year 900.

20 Factions:

Norway
Sweden
Denmark
Gardariki
Dublin-York
Normandy
Wessex
Ireland
Scotland
Frankish Kingdom
German Kingdom
Poland
Asturia
Al Andalus
Italy
Papacy
Magyars
Bulgar Kingdom
Byzantine Empire
Karjala


Many new units will be made, with a larger variety than in vanilla RTW


We have some people on the team already but we need more, especially moddelers. If you wish to join us, contact me at: yngvarv@hotmail.com
Or write at the Total Rome forums: http://forums.totalrome.com/vb/forumdisplay.php?f=13


Europe in 900 AD

https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v...apBorders2.bmp

This is the currently planned provinces, the rest will be added soon...


Units currently planned:

Quote:

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Scandinavian Kingdoms (Norway, Sweden and Denmark):
Trell Knifemen
Trell Spearmen
Leidang Spearmen
Light Archers
Leidang Archers
Huskarl Arhcers
Viking Axemen
Berserkers
Ulfhedin Berserkers
Huskarl Swordsmen
Huskarl Axemen
Hirdmen
Horse Raiders

Boats:
Snekkja
Drakkr
Bardi

Dublin-York
Saxon Peasants
Gaelic Peasants
Bonnaght Spearmen
Dibhlann Swordsmen
Light Archers
Viking Axemen
Berserkers
Huskarl Swordsmen
Huskarl Axemen
Hirdmen (royal guard)
Horse Raiders
Hobilars

Boats:

Snekkja
Drakkar

Scotland
Gaelic Peasants
Light Archers
Pict Levies
Firdacraoiseach
Celtic Swordsmen
Batareicht Swordsmen
Sinoach Warriors
Cleighdemhor Warriors
Ridire Guard (infantry)
Light Cavalry
Scottish Cavalry

Wessex
Light Archers
Saxon Peasants
Fyrd Spearmen
Fyrd Axemen
Skirmishers
Huskarl Axemen
Huskarl Swordsmen
Royal Huskarls
Light Cavalry
Saxon Cavalry

Ireland
Gaelic Peasants (throws javelins, fight with knives)
Raighhangh Berserkers
Kern Spearmen (throws javelins and fight with them)
Bonnaght Spearmen
Iobnaght Axemen
Celtic Swordsmen
Dibhlann Swordsmen
Batareicht Swordsmen
Ridire Guard (Infantry)
Light Cavalry
Hobilars

Gardariki
Light Archers
Slavic Archers
Peasant Spearmen
Rus Spearmen
Armored Rus Spearmen
Slavic Axemen
Viking Axemen
Berserkers
Varangian Axemen (another version of Huskarls, not quite as good)
Varangian Swordsmen (another version of Huskarls, not quite as good)
Royal Varangians
Light Cavalry
Boyars (heavy)
Steppe Cavalry (missiled)

Magyars
Peasants
Spearmen
Magyar Archers
Skirmishers
Avar Axemen
Light Cavalry
Steppe Cavalry
Magyar Horse Archers
Heavy Lancers
Royal Lancers

Byzantine Empire
Militiamen
Psiloi
Anatolian Highlanders (archers)
Peltastoi
Skutatoi Spearmen
Veristitatae Swordsmen
Varangian Axemen
Varangian Swordsmen
Horse Archers
Foederati Skythikon
Latinikon
Kavallaroi
Kathapraktoi
Klibanophoroi (royal guard cavalry)

Al Andalus
Falahin (peasants)
Slave Spearmen
Arab Spearmen
Arab Warband
Saber Warriors
Desert Warriors
Moorish Infantry (elite sabermen)
Mujahedins (means holy warrior, so yes it fits for the time)
Desert Archers
Arab Longbows
Camel Warriors
Arab Cavalry
Moorish Heavy Cavalry
Horse Archers
Royal Cavalry

Poland
Peasants
Slavic Axemen
Slavic Archers
Spearmen
Armored Spearmen
Skirmishers
Polish Swordsmen
Royal Guard (infantry)
Light Cavalry
Polish Cavalry

Bulgaria
Peasants
Spearmen
Armored Spearmen
Slavic Axemen
Slavic Archers
Bulgarian Brigands
Light Cavalry
Steppe Cavalry
Heavy Lancers
Boyars

Asturia
Peasants
Spearmen
Armored Spearmen
Skirmishers
Light Archers
Highland Axemen
Galician Infantry
Asturian Fanatics
Asturian Swordsmen
Royal Guardsmen
Light Cavalry

Normandy (will have a "reform" system like the Romans, take place in between 970-1000 maybe)
Peasants
Spearmen
Armored Spearmen
Light Archers
Heavy Archers
Viking Axemen
Berserkers
Huskarl Swordsmen
Huskarl Axemen
Hirdmen
Horse Raiders
~After reform~
Peasants
Spearmen
Armored Spearmen
Light Archers
Heavy Archers
Skirmishers
Light Swordsmen
Norman Swordsmen
Light Cavalry
Retainer Cavalry
Norman Knights
Skirmisher Cavalry
Royal Knights

German Kingdom
Peasants
Spearmen
Armored Spearmen
Bavarian Spearmen
Light Archers
Heavy Archers
Skirmishers
Saxon Axemen
Light Swordsmen
Swabian Swordsmen
Light Cavalry
Feudal Knights
Royal Knights

Frankish Kingdom
Peasants
Spearmen
Armored Spearmen
Light Archers
Axe Skirmishers
Skirmishers
Light Swordsmen
Frankish Swordsmen
Light Cavalry
Feudal Knights
Frankish Knights
Royal Knights

Italy
Peasants
Spearmen
Italian Spearmen
Langobardian Axemen
Light Swordsmen
Italian Swordsmen
Venetian Infantry
Light Archers
Heavy Archers
Venetian Archers
Crossbowmen
Venetian Crossbowmen
Light Cavalry
Feudal Knights
Royal Knights

Papacy
Peasants
Spearmen
Italian Spearmen
Light Swordsmen
Italian Swordsmen
Brothers of Camael
Brothers of Michael
Holy Virgin Brothers
Light Archers
Heavy Archers
Crossbowmen
Light Cavalry
Feudal Knights
Royal Knights

Karjala
Korpisoturit
Heimosoturit
Armored Spearmen
Keihäsmiehet
Footmen
Karelian Kylfings
Karelian Raiders
Karelian Horsemen
Finnish Berserkers
Finnish Nobles
Kuninkaan Henkivartio


Boats:

Small boat
Uisko

Mercenaries
Gael Gaedhil Buanna (All of Ireland and Scotland)
Leinstermen (Dyflinnsysla and Leinster)
Welsh Longbowmen (All of British Isles)
Manx Fer Cliwe; (Kumberland, Nordimberland, Dyfed, Gwynedd, Man, Sudr-Eyar, Cymri, Dublin, Ulster, Strathclyde and Lowlands)
Gorddgwas (Dyflinnsysla, Bretagne and All of Britain south of Scotland)
Gallowglasses (Connaght, Ulster, Meath, Dyflinnsysla, Leinster, Man, the Highlands, Strathclyde and the Grampians)
Saxon Mercenaries (Saxland and All of England)
Breton Axemen (Brittany and Outer Britanny)

Mercenary Vikings (All of British Isles, Finland, Baltics, Northern Russia, Iceland and Scandinavia)
Jomsvikings (Jume, Vendland, Aust-Vendland, Sjellund, Odinseyar, Jutland, Nord-Jutland, Sudr-Jutland, Skáni, Halland, Aust-Gautaland, Svitjod, Viken, Agdir, Hordaland, Trønderlag and Hålogaland: Important, Jume annually recieves several available Jomsvikings for hire, the other provinces get them less frequently)
Vendish Warband (Vendland, Aust-Vendland and Jume)
Vendish Warriors (Vendland, Aust-Vendland and Jume)
Karelian Mercenaries (All of Finland, Karelia and Lappland)
Saremaa Raiders (Saremaa and Estland)
Lithuanian Cavalry (Lithuania and Livonia)

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Feel free to add suggestions.


Scandinavian Units

Quote:

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Trell Knifemen
Weapon: Knife
Armor: None
Shield: None
Helmet: None
Morale: Very Poor
Abilities: None

Trell Spearmen
Weapon: Short Spear
Armor: None
Shield: None
Helmet: None
Morale: Very Poor
Abilities: None

Leidang Spearmen
Weapon: Long Spear
Armor: Light chain mail
Shield: Medium round shield
Helmet: Leather
Morale: Good
Abilities: Warcry

Light Archers
Weapon: Bow + Knife
Armor: None
Shield: None
Helmet: None
Morale: Poor
Abilities: Flaming arrows

Leidang Archers
Weapon: Bow + Knife
Armor: Light (fur/leather)
Shield: None
Helmet: None
Morale: Average
Abilities: Flaming arrows

King's Archers
Weapon: Bow + Sword
Armor: Light chain mail
Shield: None
Helmet: Leather
Morale: Good
Abilities: Flaming arrows

Viking Axemen
Weapon: One handed axe + Throwing spear
Armor: Light (fur/leather)
Shield: Medium round shield
Helmet: Leather
Morale: Good
Abilities: Warcry and Svinefylking (wedge)

Berserkers
Weapon: One handed axe
Armor: None (half-naked)
Shield: Medium round shield
Helmet: None
Morale: Excellent
Abilities: Berserkergang

Ulfhedin Berserkers (special Nordic)
Weapon: One handed sword
Armor: Light (much fur)
Shield: Medium round shield
Morale: Fearless (can't be routed)
Helmet: None
Abilities: Berserkergang

Huskarl Swordsmen
Weapon: One handed sword + Throwing spear
Armor: Heavy chain mail
Shield: Large round shield (iron edge)
Helmet: Gjermundbu
Morale: Excellent
Abilities: Warcry and Svinefylking (wedge)

Huskarl Axemen (best in loose formation)
Weapon: Bearded axe
Armor: Heavy chain mail
Shield: None
Helmet: Gjermundbu
Morale: Excellent
Abilities: Warcry and Svinefylking

Hirdmen (Royal Guard)
Weapon: One handed sword
Armor: Heavy chain mail
Shield: None
Helmet: Gjermundbu (general/king himself has it in gold)
Morale: Fearless
Abilities: Rally, Warcry, Svinefylking and Shield Wall (protects the general/king)

Horse Raiders (Mounted)
Weapon: Long Spear
Armor: Light chain mail
Shield: Medium round shield
Helmet: Gjermundbu
Morale: Good
Abilities: Wedge

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Leidang Archer = Well actually,wouldn't it be Ledung or Ledgang?The Ledung/Ledgang was when the chieftain or king called his followers to join him in war.
Leidang Skirmisher = I'm not sure scandinavians had special units of these people
Leidang Spearman = Acceptable
Viking Axemen = All vikings were made for raiding :P,but ok.
Berserker = good
Huskar Swordsman = I think you mean huskarl,its ok.
Huskar Axeman = alright for the flavor
Hirdmann = Hirdman,Hirdmen.Soldiers in the service of a lord
Light Cavalry = good

Quote:

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Leidang Archer = Well actually,wouldn't it be Ledung or Ledgang?The Ledung/Ledgang was when the chieftain or king called his followers to join him in war.
Leidang Skirmisher = I'm not sure scandinavians had special units of these people
Leidang Spearman = Acceptable
Viking Axemen = All vikings were made for raiding :P,but ok.
Berserker = good
Huskar Swordsman = I think you mean huskarl,its ok.
Huskar Axeman = alright for the flavor
Hirdmann = Hirdman,Hirdmen.Soldiers in the service of a lord
Light Cavalry = good

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Leidgangr is the old norse word, I just used the modern Norwegian.
It was a "draft" system where the peasants had to fight for their king for a certain time. They used bows, spears, etc. Light units. Skirmisher, maybe we don't need it, but give the Viking Axemen and maybe the huskarls and hirdmen an ability to throw spears before charging. Yes, the Vikings did that.

Quote:

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Viking Axemen = All vikings were made for raiding :P,but ok.

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Just need a light axeman ~:)

Quote:

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Huskar Swordsman = I think you mean huskarl,its ok.
Huskar Axeman = alright for the flavor

---

Huskarl might be a better name, though I have read the use "huskar" as well.

Quote:

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Hirdmann = Hirdman,Hirdmen.Soldiers in the service of a lord

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Hirdmann is just the Norwegian name. The name of the group would be Hirdmenn or Hirdmen in English. The most elite warriors. There was fewer than a thousand in a kingdom. These men formed the shield walls of the king.

Special abilities (using some of your suggestions, eliminating the skirmisher if we are to include ability to throw spear for the other infantry):

Leidang spearmen: Warcry
Leidang archers: Flaming arrows
Viking Axemen: Warcry
Berserkers: Warcry (Berserkegangr, extra effect on berserkers)
Huskar Axemen: Wedge (Svinefylking)
Huskar Swordsmen: Wedge (Svinefylking)
Hirdmen: Wedge (Svinefylking, warlord in front!)
Light Cavalry: Wedge

Another idea: Mercenary that can only be sold to "Viking" factions: Jomsviking.

Hey, I was thinking about making a Age of Charlemagne mod, but i think I'll rather wait for CA to show us their next project, because everything would be easier if the plan to release MTW2.

Anyway, if you're looking for informations, you might want to ask to Norseman. He's working on the Fury of the Northmen mod for MTW, and has gathered a loads of historical informations.

MTW2? Wouldn't that be based in around the same period as MTW? Plus, it will take them at least two years to release it.

About information, if someone want to give information (especially about the other kingdoms outside Scandinavia) that would be nice. But I need some modders too.

So I decided for a starting age, at first that starting age will be 911 as it is more interresting and with more options than 793. Just another thing that proves this is not the same as Viking Invasion. Well, mostly I decided this because of Normandy and the Magyars, as they will now be included.

https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v...al%20I/911.jpg

Only the provinces of the north have been lined up there, the rest of Europe is just bordered by factions for now.

Factions:

Norway
Sweden
Denmark
Wessex (or England)
Dublin-York (yes I know they were not united until 919, but no need to include them both)
Scotland (or Alba, just think Scotland sounds better)
Ireland (or Eire)
Wales (or use one of the names of a Welsh principality, f.ex Gwynedd or Dyfedd?. Yes, just one province, but we want them in don't we?)
Kingdom of Vendland (those two provinces east of Denmark if you wondered, Slavic people)
Normandy
Frankish Kingdom (or West-Frankish Kingdom)
German Kingdom (or East-Frankish Kingdom)
Cordoba
Asturia
Italy (yes there were actually a kingdom called Italy from the late 800's till mid 900's)
Papacy (the Catholic "senate")
Poland
Magyars (or Hungary)
Kijev/Novgorod/Konugard/Holmgard (still not sure which name to use)
Bulgar Khanate
Khazar Khanate
Byzantine Empire (or Romanoi Empire/Eastern-Roman Empire?)
Fatimid Kaliphate (started out in Algeria in 901, rapidly expanded westwards, took Egypt later on)
Abbasid Kaliphate (the original Kaliphate, the Fatimids challenged them for the title of Kalif)

The best name for the Russian faction is Kievan Rus, cause Novgorod was an independant city in 911 I think.

It's true that the norse threw spears/javelins.
Jan Guillou mentions this in one of his medieval novels. (post-viking era)
The hero, a former knight templar, is defeated in two contests back home in Götaland: throwing spears and throwing axes, which the young men he competes against have been practicing since infancy. He comments that he needs to get better at throwing away his weapon. ~;)

I got an idea for a unit, inspired by the Burgundian snipers in NTW: How about a "Heroic Archer"? In the sagas there is a guy called Einar Tambarskjelve, who has unique skills. He is "one shot, one or more kills". The Norwegian king is a great athlete, but when Einar's bow breaks and he is offered that of king Olav instead, he complains that it is too weak. After that, they lost the battle (against a combined force of Danes, Swedes and Norwegian rebels) Einar subsequently worked for the former enemies. This made me think that the unit might be a recruitable mercenary, available in western Norway.
One man unit (if possible). Expensive to hire, high upkeep, max.possible missile attack, very long range. High starting experience/valour. Possibly lower than standard number of arrows (because the silly sod ruins his bow a lot)
Should be good for taking out enemy leaders etc.

I have read those books yes, all four of them ~:)

Quote:

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One man unit (if possible).

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Don't know if this is possible, maybe a small berserker sized unit (24 right?).

By the way, do you wish to help with this mod? Either by collecting historical information or if you know anything about modding.

Quote:

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The best name for the Russian faction is Kievan Rus, cause Novgorod was an independant city in 911 I think.

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Helgi ruled both cities ~;)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by King Yngvar

By the way, do you wish to help with this mod? Either by collecting historical information or if you know anything about modding.

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I would like to help. I'm not
-a historian
-an archaeologist
-a graphic designer
-an experienced modder

I'd be happy to help with testing.
I can try to help with research, unit info, finding pictures to base unit design on, text file editing/experimenting etc.
Just try assigning me a task, and we'll se how I perform ~;)

As I usually say: try benefiting from the work of others instead of reinventing the hand pump from scratch. ~;)
There's VI with a lot of units. There may be something to rip off in the Medieval mod for RTW. https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=38508
Some guys are working on a MTW mod called "Fury of the Northmen". It's got roughly the same timeframe as "your" mod, and there's loads of information in the thread: https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=30879
My impression is that most modders are happy to share as long as they're given proper credit for their work.
Another thing (probably well known): There may be changes to moddability and possibly CA-made modding tools in the next patch.

For information, you might want to take a look at the "Fury of the Northmen" mod thread in the engineers guild.

Good luck with the mod.

Quote:

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I'd be happy to help with testing.
I can try to help with research, unit info, finding pictures to base unit design on, text file editing/experimenting etc.
Just try assigning me a task, and we'll se how I perform

---

I think the testing phase is far ahead. I am getting photoshop soon on CD in the mailbox, not sure when. Probably soon as I get my new computer.

Quote:

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Scandinavian Kingdoms (Norway, Sweden and Denmark):

Trell Spearmen: Short spears and small wooden un-painted shield, no armour.
Leidang Spearmen: Longer spears, medium wooden un-painted shield, fur clothing.
Leidang Archers: Light standard archers with a "Viking look"
Viking Axemen: Skegg-axe, medium wooden, un-painted shield, no armor, lether helmet. Geirrkastir, throw spears like Roman infantry throw pilums. Abilities: Svinefylking (Wedge) and Warcry (hoping for possibility to have two).
Berserkers: Sword and medium wooden, un-painted shield, "wild" fur clothing. Ability: Berserkergang warcry, last longer, more effect than normal warcry (if possible).
Huskarl Swordsmen: Sword, big painted shield, chain mail, gjermundbu helmet. Geirrkastir, throw spears like Roman infantry throw pilums. Abilities: Svinefylking (Wedge) and Warcry (hoping for possibility to have two).
Huskarl Axemen: Two handed bearded axeman, chain mail, gjermundbu helmet. Geirrkastir, throw spears like Roman infantry throw pilums. Abilities: Svinefylking (Wedge) and Warcry (hoping for possibility to have two).
Hirdmen: Infantry royal guard, sword, big painted shield, golden gjermundbu helmet. Geirrkastir, throw spears like Roman infantry throw pilums. Abilities: Svinefylking (Wedge) and Warcry (hoping for possibility to have two).
Horse Raiders: Spear and small wooden shield.

Boats:

Snekkja
Drakkar


Dublin-York (Disable berserker, York was already christianized, Dublin got christianized in 948. No drakkr. No leidang system. But gets Irish units in return):

Trell Spearmen: Short spears and small wooden un-painted shield, no armour.
Irish Spearmen
Gallowglasses
Viking Axemen: Skegg-axe, medium wooden, un-painted shield, no armor, lether helmet. Geirrkastir, throw spears like Roman infantry throw pilums. Abilities: Svinefylking (Wedge) and Warcry (hoping for possibility to have two).
Huskarl Swordsmen: Sword, big painted shield, chain mail, gjermundbu helmet. Geirrkastir, throw spears like Roman infantry throw pilums. Abilities: Svinefylking (Wedge) and Warcry (hoping for possibility to have two).
Huskarl Axemen: Two handed bearded axeman, chain mail, gjermundbu helmet. Geirrkastir, throw spears like Roman infantry throw pilums. Abilities: Svinefylking (Wedge) and Warcry (hoping for possibility to have two).
Hirdmen: Infantry royal guard, sword, big painted shield, golden gjermundbu helmet. Geirrkastir, throw spears like Roman infantry throw pilums. Abilities: Svinefylking (Wedge) and Warcry (hoping for possibility to have two).
Horse Raiders: Spear and small wooden shield.
Hobilars

Boats:

Snekkja


The others are just wild ideas that will definately be changed:

Scotland

Peasants
Commoners
Light Archers
Spearmen
Skirmishers
Armored Spearmen
Claymore Warriors
Pictish Axemen
Lowland Infantry
Light Cavalry
Scottish Cavalry
Celtic Guard (infantry)


Wessex

Light Archers
Heavy Archers
Peasants
Fyrd Spearmen
Fyrd Axemen
Skirmishers
Huskarl Axemen
Huskarl Swordsmen
Royal Huskarls (infantry)
Light Cavalry
Saxon Cavalry


Wales

Peasants
Light Archers
Longbowmen
Spearmen
Armored Spearmen
Axemen
Skirmishers
Briton Swordsmen
Briton Horsemen
Celtic Guard (infantry)


Irish

Peasants
Dagger Fighters
Irish Spearmen
Viking Axemen
Gallowglasses
Skirmishers
Kerns
Celtic Guard (Infantry)
Hobilars


Kijev

Peasants
Slavic Archers
Rus Spearmen
Armored Rus Spearmen
Slavic Axemen
Viking Axemen
Berserkers
Varangian Axemen
Varangian Swordsmen
Royal Varangians
Light Cavalry
Boyars
Steppe Cavalry

Boats:

Snekkja
Drakkar


Magyars

Peasants
Light Archers
Magyar Archers
Skirmishers
Swordsmen
Slavic Axemen
Light Cavalry
Steppe Cavalry
Magyar Horse Archers
Heavy Lancers
Royal Cavalry


Byzantine Empire

Peasants
Archers
Crossbowmen
Trebizbond Archers
Spearmen
Armored Spearmen
Roman Swordsmen
Varangian Axemen
Varangian Swordsmen
Cathapracts
Pronoias
Horse Archers
Royal Cathapracts
Catapults
Ballistas


Abbasid Caliphate

Peasants
Desert Bowmen
Syrian Archers
Crossbowmen
Spearmen
Saracen Infantry
Nubian Spearmen
Skirmishers
Beduin Camels
Saracen Cavalry
Horse Archers
Ghulam Cavalry
Royal Cavalry


Fatimid Caliphate

Peasants
Spearmen
Fatimid Spearmen
Saracen Infantry
Berber Warriors
Desert Bowmen
Light Camels
Saracen Cavalry
Berber Cavalry
Royal Cavalry


Cordoba

Peasants
Slave Spearmen
Iberian Spearmen
Light Infantry
Moorish Infantry
Desert Bowmen
Light Cavalry
Moorish Cavalry
Horse Archers
Royal Cavalry

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Wends

Peasants
Slavic Axemen
Slavic Archers
Spearmen
Armored Spearmen
Skirmishers
Berserkers
Wendish Swordsmen
Bearded Axemen
Royal Guard (infantry)
Horse Raiders

Have not come up with appropriate names for the others yet. This is just to give you an idea of units.

http://forums.totalrome.com/index.ph...ype=post&id=81

Pherhaps this can be an armored spearman unit?

King Yngvar... Excellent units and map!
I hope this mod will be released, but since i am not a modder or a historian I can't help.. but I wish you the best of luck!! ~:)

Fury of the Northmen mod have a load of information... Maybee you can get some info there or maybee join them... 'cause your units is great!

Radier.

Quote:

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Fury of the Northmen mod have a load of information... Maybee you can get some info there or maybee join them... 'cause your units is great!

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Thank you, however I don't think I can join them as they mod MTW. I don't even have MTW anymore, and the new 3D engine of RTW prevents me from even thinking about going back to MTW ~:)
What is needed is a "Viking mod" for RTW.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by King Yngvar

Thank you, however I don't think I can join them as they mod MTW. I don't even have MTW anymore, and the new 3D engine of RTW prevents me from even thinking about going back to MTW ~:)
What is needed is a "Viking mod" for RTW.

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Well I know that. I was just thinking, that since thr FotN crew has done some very extensive research on the viking world, may be you would find that useful for your mod. ~:)

EDIT: oops I thought you were quoting me. Got to learn how to read first and post later. :book:

Might I just add that the favored weapon of the "more veteran" viking was NOT the axe but the simple sword/boradsword etc etc.
It is just a myth that all vikings used only axes.

just wanted to say that... :bow:

Quote:

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Might I just add that the favored weapon of the "more veteran" viking was NOT the axe but the simple sword/boradsword etc etc.
It is just a myth that all vikings used only axes.

just wanted to say that...

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The reason berserkers, huskarl swordsmen and hirdmen will have swords.

Quote:

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Well I know that. I was just thinking, that since thr FotN crew has done some very extensive research on the viking world, may be you would find that useful for your mod.

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I may concider it, thank you ~:)

Christianized 'Irish' Vikings in Dublin shouldn't disclude berserkers, the Christian Irish had berserkers called Raighhangh (in the old An Mhumain). Also, the backbone of the late dark age Irish armies were chainmaille wearing light swordsmen (Dibh Lann, black blade), coupled with chainmaille wearing heavy spearmen (Bonnaght, later Bonnacht, spearman).

Quote:

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Christianized 'Irish' Vikings in Dublin shouldn't disclude berserkers, the Christian Irish had berserkers called Raighhangh (in the old An Mhumain). Also, the backbone of the late dark age Irish armies were chainmaille wearing light swordsmen (Dibh Lann, black blade), coupled with chainmaille wearing heavy spearmen (Bonnaght, later Bonnacht, spearman).

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Woha, we got an Irish history expert ~:)

Maybe you could be in charge of the Irish faction? I will put in those unit names, thank you.

Sorry for the second post, but it seems you cannot edit posts in this forum. Oh well;

Irish

Peasants
Raighhangh Berserkers
Spearmen
Bonnaght Spearmen
Viking Axemen
Dibhlann Swordsmen
Gallowglasses
Skirmishers
Kerns
Celtic Guard (Infantry)
Hobilars


Dublin-York (No drakkar. No leidang system. But gets Irish units in return):

Trell Spearmen: Short spears and small wooden un-painted shield, no armour.
Bonnaght Spearmen
Dibhlann Swordsmen
Viking Axemen: Skegg-axe, medium wooden, un-painted shield, no armor, lether helmet. Geirrkastir, throw spears like Roman infantry throw pilums. Abilities: Svinefylking (Wedge) and Warcry (hoping for possibility to have two).
Berserkers: Sword and medium wooden, un-painted shield, "wild" fur clothing. Ability: Berserkergang warcry, last longer, more effect than normal warcry (if possible).
Huskarl Swordsmen: Sword, big painted shield, chain mail, gjermundbu helmet. Geirrkastir, throw spears like Roman infantry throw pilums. Abilities: Svinefylking (Wedge) and Warcry (hoping for possibility to have two).
Huskarl Axemen: Two handed bearded axeman, chain mail, gjermundbu helmet. Geirrkastir, throw spears like Roman infantry throw pilums. Abilities: Svinefylking (Wedge) and Warcry (hoping for possibility to have two).
Hirdmen: Infantry royal guard, sword, big painted shield, golden gjermundbu helmet. Geirrkastir, throw spears like Roman infantry throw pilums. Abilities: Svinefylking (Wedge) and Warcry (hoping for possibility to have two).
Horse Raiders: Spear and small wooden shield.
Hobilars

Boats:

Snekkja

Great idea for a mod. Just thought I'd mention, Magyars should be pretty much cavalry only. They certainly didn't use slavic troops that's for sure! They were basicly like Eastern horsemen, excellent horse archers and some heavy cav, really hard bastards. :charge:

King Yngvar were are you from? Just wonder since you to this vikingmod...
~:cheers:
And the scandinavian units... will the different vikingfactions have unique units apart from each other?

Radier.

I am an expert in Celtic history, and have a degree in Irish Military History. The professional Irish army also did not employ viking axemen, except as mercenaries, they had their own, Iobnaght (Ee-obe-nakt), who fought using a two-handed axe called a moriob (great axe). These were a type of light-to-medium infantry, coupled with similarly armored Cleighcach, shortswordsmen, and Kerns. The Iobnaght and Cleighcach were the lightest 'professional' soldiers used by Irish militaries (Kerns are peasants), though they were actually just chiefsmen (tribal warriors) that were led by their chieftans, under the direction of a greater Arras (Irish noble), and, unless in a small skirmish or a cattle raid, were usually used as a reserve, or as a forward force to soften the foe, before the bulk of the actual army, consisting mainly of Bonnaghts and Dibh Lann swordsmen, would follow and do the true bulk of damage, using their high quality armor and weapons, as opposed to the Iobnaght and Cleighcach's total lack of armor and shields (However, Cleighcach from parts of Munster, called Dhácleighcach, used two swords).

Also, having Irish with peasants and kerns are redudant. Kerns were simply a peasant mob that were given darts and a spear, both of which were more than plentiful in Ireland. Subsequently, Kerns are ALSO Irish skirmishers. In Viking Invasion, it had a seperate unit for dartmen (Irish skirmishers) and kerns, but in reality, they're the same thing.

Also, hobilar, just so a common mistake is not repeated, are NOT light cavalry. They are, in fact, Irish medium-to-heavy cavalry. Hobby ponies are very sturdy, and their riders were clad in high quality chain, threw three javelins before a charge, and then attacked using their spear in 'the old fashion', that is, wielding it over their head. Irish light cavalry are Marcach (horsemen), and aren't really exceptionally different than other horsemen, so a generic horsemen unit could be employed for that. There are also Ridire, who I'll talk about shortly.

Gallowglass, also, do not use two-handed swords, usually. Some did, but the main weapon of the Gallowglass, is a large, two-handed axe, called a sparth axe. The axe is on a 4.5-to-6-foot pole. Gallowglass should not be included, however. While the Irish employed them heavily, they were actually Gaelo-Nordic warriors from the Hebrides. Gallowglass itself (the Anglicized version of the Irish word 'Gallogladh'), means 'Foreign Warrior'. The most important point, though, is that they did not come into usage until the high middle ages. If you still wish to use them, make them a mercenary unit available in the north of Ireland, and Scotland, they were not trained, they were bought, and even fought for the English a few times.

Irish two-handed swordsmen were lewcach, and used a massive two-handed sword called a lewing sword. These huge weapons were made to split through chain armor, and cleave off heads in wide strokes. They were the precursor to the cleighdemornach (claymore men, two-handed swordsmen) used by the Scots.

In Connacht, the tribe of the Dal Cais produced extremely heavily armed, and long trained warriors called the Dalcaission Knights, they used a lewing sword, or a longsword and shield, coupled with full body chain, and a shield with the flag of Ireland on the front (a blue field, not green, with a yellow Irish harp on it) after the unification under Brian Boroime. If used, they would be vaguely like R:TW's Spartans, a limited area, high power, extremely expensive unit. Also, they appear only in small numbers, a unit of Dalcaissions were about 20-30 men. They were paid in pounds of treasure, weapons, and armor, as such, they were VERY expensive to maintain. Alternatively, the high king of Ireland himself employed these men as his own guards, and they could be a 'royal' unit for generals. However, I recommend Ridire. Ridire are a mounted unit, they are Irish 'knights', who use extremely high quality swords, shields, suits of chain, and metal helmets, and wear flowing cloaks. Either one would be good as a bodyguard unit though.

Also, bonnaght ARE spearmen in Ireland, the Irish spear was a throwing weapon as well as a defensive weapon. The Irish military was highly unique. Archers in Ireland were always mercenaries, the Irish military didn't rely on long range engagements, they relied on their high quality chain and shields to protect them at distance, use short range armor piercing missiles (heavy javelins), or fast to throw light missiles (darts), and close and use their melee weapons (axes, swords, and spears). I know I said the bonnaght are heavy spearmen, and they are, but that's more of a comparison to other nations spearmen. The only 'light' spear unit used by the Irish were Kerns, who, when their darts were thrown, used a homemade spear.

The vikings of Dublin no longer employed Trell spearmen by 1000, they adopted the Irish bonnaght entirely for their spears, as the bonnaght's system was very effective against most enemies you'd need spears against. However, their bonnaghts were really more like Kerns who marched in formation.

Also, on Dibhlann, they worked similarly to legionarres, they throw a javelin before their charge, which is precursored by their warcry "Bas! Bas! Bas ach Ifreann ru ta namhaid!" - "Death! Death! Death and Hell on the foe!"

Scottish armies in this period were VERY similar. However, they employed their cleighdemornach instead of lewcach, and used light archers. However, their clothing is of importance to note.

Irish and Scottish warriors, none of them at this time, wear kilts. They wear brat, a shoulder cloak akin to the kilt (in fact, the kilt is simply a brat worn about the waist). The poorer soldiers and peasants wear a long shirt, called a leine. It goes to the knee. They wear, with it, a belt, a brat, and leather shoes.

Professional soldiers (Dibhlann, Bonnacht, etc.) wore checkered pants called trews, along with a brat, a leine, and usually, a chain shirt, with a padded vest over it, and high ankle boots with the trews stuffed into the boots.

Beards are not popular with Gaelic soldiers (though they are with peasants), but mustaches are. Long 'handlebar' mustaches, called cruda or brocha, or any number of things based on dialect, are especially popular, and are, in fact, a hold over to ancient Gallic mustaches in France and north Italy. The most advanced soldiers wear long cloaks. Included there would be 'noble' units, like those around generals, and any of the highest tier units.

The strength of an Irish army should be in two main areas:
Heavily Armored Advanced Units - During the Dark Ages, the Irish had the finest made chain in Europe. They used advanced metallurgical procedures to have a 'double knit' shirt, that was light as the average shirt of chain.

Morale - Gaelic armies are historically reknowned for an insanely high level of morale and fearlessness during this period, instilled mainly due to the teachings of the Celtic rite of the Catholic Church. They still took heads, and saw death in battle as the greatest glory.

The weaknesses of an Irish army should be in two main areas as well:
Range - While having decent short ranged attacks, at a long range, the Irish are at a HUGE disadvantage. While their most advanced units should have good enough armor to get them close, their lower tier units are another story.

Very Poorly Armored Low Tier Units - While generally willing to fight, more so than most warriors in many places, the Irish levymen, their very basic soldiers are VERY badly disadvantaged when it comes to armor. Totally unarmored, and without shields, they have little chance of survival at range, against archers and the like. While their unarmored status affords them great speed upclose, and the ability to dodge, at a range, they're good as dead.

Also, on the subject of Raighhangh Berserkers, they were not unarmored like Nordic berserkers, they used a high quality hand-and-a-half sword called a sidhemhor, with a large targe-style shield. They wore chain shirts, under a leine, no pants, but wore shoes, with an elaborate gold neck chain (a gift given to them all), a heavy cloak that stopped just above the knees, with a plaid design, and body painted heavily with blue or white dyes, especially the face, and often have religious tattoos on the arms.

Such a unit should be confined to a province with a specific religious structure, as they were supposed to be the 'children of Saint Finbar', a little known Catholic saint of wolves, but he was very popular in 'backwoods' regions of Ireland, among hunters and the more tribal warriors, who hadn't really incorporated heavily into the uniting kingdom of Ireland. In professional armies, they only showed up three times, and every time, they were were found in a chapel to Saint Finbar in Connacht when they were hired, found praying naked and tattooing and cutting themselves in front of the altar.

After their ritual, they were hired, and gathered their brethern to fight for the Irish. In battle, they exhibit the same qualities as a Nordic berserkr, a berserk rage, and wild, selfless behavior. They would cry 'For the Christ, Saint Finbar, and Eireann, I will take your head and eat your pagan soul' before battle. With such a cry, I'm sure you can see why I insist that they be tied to a religious structure.

I am also aware that in later periods, a Kern was simply an ordinary Irish warrior, and meant many types of troops, but in this period you've outlined, the Kern is just a peasant sent to fight.

And now, the Scots. The Scots had a very similar military, and, at the 'entry' point of the game, were just recently to become the Albions, with Kenneth Mac Alpin's completed conquest of Pictland. The kingdom of Alba was, itself, still VERY Gaelic in this period, and the Scots, as such, were not that different from the Irish. The distinction between highlanders and lowlanders wouldn't really be formed until the Norman incursions north, when the lowlanders would become more 'European' in culture, while the highlanders were more Gaelic in culture. Any Picts used in a Scottish military, it should be noted, are generally significantly shorter than a Gael, with black hair.

The Scottish military, as such, acts similarly to the Irish one. While there is a professional military, the bulk of soldiers in Scotland are clan warriors. They are made for raiding, not prolonged battles. They are patroned to a chieftan, who is himself patroned to a local 'ruire', who is then patroned to the 'ardruire' (the same titles as Irish 'ri' and 'ard ri', the 'kings' and 'high king'). These would be the lowest tier soldiers, kerns (called bollocknach, as they used bollock knives, not spears, in Scotland), spearmen, very light archers, Pict levies (Picts fought in large levies, all generally very poorly armored, using axes or curved swords), and the lightest of cavalry.

Then, you have the soldiers trained by the ruire, they are professionals. They include: Strathnach (used by the Welsh and Scots, they were essentially just Armored Spearmen, so that's a fine unit for them), Droganach (medium cavalry, wearing light chain, and using an axe and shield from horseback), and Sinoach Warriors (these were also used by the Irish, but not as often), who would dress in fox furs, and, at a distance, appear to be a fox by laying down. This would leave them fairly unmolested by enemies, or draw hungry enemies closer looking for something to eat. They would use this camoflauge to sneak near to enemies, then fire on them with fair quality bows, and draw a mace or sword, and their shield, to engage in melee. They weren't used too often, but almost every Ruire before 1050 AD had at least a few groups of them for assassinating traveling nobles and their entourages, and used them sometimes on the field to go after noblemen.

The most professional were the soldiers of the high king. These included Moarcleigh (Bearer of the sword), who dressed in very elaborate chain, and used swords with the mark of the king on the pommel, and were his personal guards, cleighdemornach, claymore warriors, also, were in his private armies, they used the heavy two-handed swords as an anti-armored infantry unit, and also batareicht (also an Irish soldier), clubmen. The bata is also called a shillealagh, a stick with a rounded 'head', and many knots, to inflict nasty gashes. Professional bata warriors were something like a Japanese kensai, they were very skilled martial artists with their weapon. Batareicht also used swords, called Pronoais, and those who used swords were generally the most skilled, and used, often, two at a time. The pronoais warriors were also sometimes called Prochacht or Pronach, and the pronoais itself is an elaborate shortsword.

The Welsh, you have pretty well. They did employ a large number of archers, light archers, as well as "Ddynion chan bwâu", 'Men of Bows', excellently trained longbowmen, as well as shortswordsmen. They were, in a pinch, decent light infantry, and carried small shields and shortswords. The later English employed Welsh longbows were 'Anglicized', they weren't as heavily trained in melee combat as the dark age Welsh bowmen were.

Also, they made extensive use of "Allt farchogion" (Hill Horsemen), who were a swift cavalry unit that used bows from horseback, and then road in with a longsword or axe, and large shield.



A side note for the Irish. As a united people, the 'kingdom' of Ireland was actually called 'the Irish Empire', as it was several kingdoms under a single ruler. Brian Boroime actually held the title of 'Scotum Imperator', in Papal records, as he was 'Emperor of the Irish', and in some places of Ireland (like where I'm from), he's referred to in English, not as King Brian, but as Emperor Brian. However, either way, in Irish, he's 'Ard Ri', 'High King'

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Great idea for a mod. Just thought I'd mention, Magyars should be pretty much cavalry only. They certainly didn't use slavic troops that's for sure! They were basicly like Eastern horsemen, excellent horse archers and some heavy cav, really hard bastards.

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Are you 100% sure? So those Slavs that lived within their borders did not fight in their army at all? It seems unlikely that they did not employ any infantry, even the Mongols employed infantry. But of course, I wish their army to have weak infantry and great cavalry. Those who like to play as Parthians in RTW will like to play as Hungarians here.

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King Yngvar were are you from? Just wonder since you to this vikingmod...

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Norway

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And the scandinavian units... will the different vikingfactions have unique units apart from each other?

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I do not see a point in that. If this was for the later period after the Viking Age, I might have concidered that. But the Scandinavians was so similar in the Viking Age you can say they were all the same people, just divided by borders.

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Also, they made extensive use of "Allt farchogion" (Hill Horsemen), who were a swift cavalry unit that used bows from horseback, and then road in with a longsword or axe, and large shield.

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Horse archers for the Welsh, interresting...

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The most professional were the soldiers of the high king. These included Moarcleigh (Bearer of the sword), who dressed in very elaborate chain, and used swords with the mark of the king on the pommel, and were his personal guards

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The Scottish equilant of Hirdmen then...

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I am also aware that in later periods, a Kern was simply an ordinary Irish warrior, and meant many types of troops, but in this period you've outlined, the Kern is just a peasant sent to fight.

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Pherhaps like the "leidgangr" system in Norway then?

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After their ritual, they were hired, and gathered their brethern to fight for the Irish. In battle, they exhibit the same qualities as a Nordic berserkr, a berserk rage, and wild, selfless behavior. They would cry 'For the Christ, Saint Finbar, and Eireann, I will take your head and eat your pagan soul' before battle. With such a cry, I'm sure you can see why I insist that they be tied to a religious structure.

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Seems all natural, was thinking the line of just making churches of Christ for the Christian factions. But pherhaps national patron Saints can get their churches. Like "Curch of Saint Finbar" could be a structure necessary for Irish berserkers, "Temple of Odin" could be necessary for Nordic berserkers.

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The professional Irish army also did not employ viking axemen, except as mercenaries,

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Hmm... Pherhaps these mercenaries could be set to the Irish provinces then, at a fair price and upkeep cost.

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make them a mercenary unit available in the north of Ireland, and Scotland

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Thanks, I shall take them out of the unit list. Was actually just copying Viking Invasion there. About the kerns, what about making two different units, first a Kern with a spear and then a Kern with throwing javelins. The Kern Spearmen being light anti cavalry units while the Kern Skirmishers being, well skirmishers. About the Marcach horsemen, using the name Light Cavalry and making it the same for all Celts might be better concidering all these units have to be skinned. Using the same royal guard units for Celts might be preferable, concidering 25 factions are to be made. It's the reason I want Norway, Sweden and Denmark to use exactly the same units. However royal guard units will have the coat of arms of their respective faction, though they elsewhere look the same.

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Also, bonnaght ARE spearmen in Ireland, the Irish spear was a throwing weapon as well as a defensive weapon

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Maybe a "legionary ability" here then...

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Also, on Dibhlann, they worked similarly to legionarres, they throw a javelin before their charge, which is precursored by their warcry "Bas! Bas! Bas ach Ifreann ru ta namhaid!" - "Death! Death! Death and Hell on the foe!"

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Same ability as I plan the Scandinavian units to get...

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Morale - Gaelic armies are historically reknowned for an insanely high level of morale and fearlessness during this period, instilled mainly due to the teachings of the Celtic rite of the Catholic Church. They still took heads, and saw death in battle as the greatest glory.

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They will have the same main strength as Scandinavian units then. A clash between the two would be a long battle...

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Irish and Scottish warriors, none of them at this time, wear kilts.

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So when did they start using kilts? Magnus Barefoot (king of Norway who attempted conquering Ireland but fell in an ambush in Ulster) is said to have had bear legs, "like the Irish". I always thought he wore a kilt, but then again, that was between 1098 and 1103, 200 years after this mod shall start.

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The Welsh, you have pretty well. They did employ a large number of archers, light archers, as well as "Ddynion chan bwâu", 'Men of Bows', excellently trained longbowmen, as well as shortswordsmen

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Would like to use the same shortswordsmen for Welsh and Irish. Did they both use shields? Then maybe just name them Celtic Swordsmen and give them a short sword and a wooden shield...


Ireland

Kern Spearmen
Skirmisher Kerns
Raighhangh Berserkers
Bonnaght Spearmen
Iobnaght Axemen
Celtic Swordsmen
Dibhlann Swordsmen
Celtic Guard (Infantry)
Light Cavalry
Hobilars

Scotland

Bollock Knifemen
Pict Levies
Light Archers
Spearmen
Armored Spearmen
Celtic Swordsmen
Batareicht Swordsmen
Sinoach Warriors
Claymore Warriors
Celtic Guard (infantry)
Light Cavalry

Wales

Peasants
Light Archers
Longbowmen
Spearmen
Armored Spearmen
Axemen
Skirmishers
Celtic Swordsmen
Briton Swordsmen
Light Cavalry
Hill Horsemen (missiled)
Celtic Guard (infantry)

Well, if you need some help, I think I can work on the mapping. I have some knowledge about russians, frankish and possibly english provinces.

The Welsh did have a similar shortsword unit, so using the same wouldn't be bad, but the Irish ones did not use shields too often in this period, early medieval Irish armies used shields more extensively. These swordsman should be a very early unit, with very little armor, and if they have shields, rather poor ones, so little shield defense.

I've no problem with two Kern units, that sounds fine to me, but if you can get a modeller on board for the project, you could model it all into one unit. That would save space, by removing one unit, since you can only have 300 units total.

As for the bare legs remark, that is proper. You see, the leine, the shirt worn by Irish and Scots (and the Manx, too), comes only to the knee. So, the legs are generally bare. Only professional soldiers, in combat, wore trews (pants). On a statue, a leine looks like a kilt, it comes down about the same length, but kilts were not used until well into the late middle ages/early renaissance. In day-to-day wear, the average citizen, and even most of the arras, wore a leine, so their legs would be bare.

As for using the same Royal Guard, then go with Ridire. The Scots and Irish both used them, and the Welsh had an identical class of bodyguards, as did the pre-Nordic Manx and the pre-Saxon Corns. Ridire itself is the Saxon name that was used for all of them, they all had unique names though, but are commonly recognized as Ridire.

And remember, the Irish flag is blue, not green, with a yellow Irish harp, and the Scots had just adopted St. Andrew's Cross for their flag (white criss-cross on a blue field) around 890. The flag of Leinster, and Dublin, for that matter, for a while anyway, was identical to the Irish flag, except the field was green.

Good then, that battles with the Scandinavians will be long, historically accurate, that. Brian Boroime used to say, when campaigning against the vikings and their Leinstermen allies; "The problem with the Danes is that they don't want to leave, and will fight until they're all dead. Their problem is that we'll do the same." Gaels, Scottish and Irish, were fiercely nationalistic, even though real nationalism wouldn't be typified until the French revolution, but this was really similar, and generally very religious. It'll be fun to see them fight with the Nordic invaders (Danes, in Ireland, most people assume the invaders there were from Hordaland and such, but the truth is, they were mainly Danes, and sometimes a few Jutes, however, the Irish called ALL Nords Danes, except those from Hordaland and Iceland, who were called Garedhgolth, Infernal Goths).

On Welsh horse archers, I was a bit surprised, initially, too, as they were a type of skilled horse archer, not unlike the steppe people utilized, and likely comparable in their skill. But, they are a footnote in history, thus often overlooked, because they were overshadowed, easily, by the skill and science of Welsh longbows. However, they would give a unique dimension, I think, to a Welsh faction in the British isles. And while the Welsh would share some units with the Irish/Scots, be careful to not make them too similar, as the Welsh, being of Brythonic extraction, not Goedelic, were quite different in many aspects, including militarily. However, all did have lightly armored swordsman on a clan level, for raiding, that were sometimes employed to fight larger enemies. If possible, try and divide Wales into a north half (Morganwydd) and a south half (Gwynydd), so the Welsh have more than one province. They won't be big, but, then, many of the original provinces for Rome weren't huge (Palma). The cities could be at Dinas Powys or Caernoforn, and Dyfydd or Cardiff in the south.

I'd also make Claymore Warriors both Irish and Scottish. While the Irish ones were actually called Lewcach, and used a bit larger of a sword, they served the same purpose in battle and were very similar, as well as the claymore being an outgrowth of the Irish lewing sword. However, at the time, keep in mind that the claymore did not yet have the 'sloping' v-guard and quillons, it had a straight guard. The lewing sword had a sloping v-guard, but the tip was also rounded (it was so long that stabbing was simply never done with it). The handle of a lewing sword is also much longer (actually, it's so long that the animations for the Falxmen could probably be used, as they grip their falx with their hands so far apart). It has a 'four-hand grip', as the martial art for using the lewing sword was complicated with many types of slashes that required the different possible grips. The claymore was more simplified, with a shorter grip, and utilized a mixture of Germanic and Irish two-handed sword styles, using only a single type of grip.

Also, to note, while the Irish did use Sinoach Warriors (though far more rarely than Scots), who themselves used bows, they weren't really 'archers' in the classic sense, so I stand by my statements on the lack of Irish archers (the Irish hired merc archers from Wales and Mann, usually). They were a horde of men trained to hide, and get themselves close to nobility or a small unit, pepper them with arrows, and then engage in a melee. They were more akin to battlefield assassins, not intended to back up any other unit or assist in the main battle, but rather, to disrupt the command of the the opposing side. It's a pity a unit can't have an ability allowing it to be placed outside of the region that a faction can place units in, as that could be used to represent the forward scout and disrupt status of the Sinoach Warriors, but that's a pipe dream. In any event, their implementation, if used, should be as a small unit, of about 12-20 men, in a 'horde' formation, who can hide anywhere.

However, I'd not give them to the Irish, as they didn't use them nearly as often.

I have forgotten to ask, have you decided upon just how large, for sure, you wish the map to be? How far east/how far south? It'd give me a better idea of how to recommend placement of mercenaries, like gallowglass, if I knew the general size of the potential areas. The gallowglass, for example, in a map with at least four Irish provinces, and a few in Scotland, would make more sense to have them as mercenaries only in the north of those countries, were they were most often employed. But, if smaller, then having them placed in all of the countries would probably be better.

I would like to contribute to this mod a little bit, if you wouldn't mind.

Cordoba had control of Tangiers and were at war with the Zenata tribe at that time, also the spanish factions are united here (they weren't), if i recall correctly, Crodoba had several trade treaties with leon (a state north of Lisbon) i can't recall the names of the other 2 states but they were at peace.

Also the unit lists for Fatimids, Cordoba and Abassids are pretty bland, i'll just do renames for them if you wouldn't mind.

King Yngvar! Yes I am very sure, Magyars would not have used Slavic warriors. When the Magyars invaded present day Hungary, Slavic presence was minimal, as far as I remember only one or two very small settlements have been found on the very far north west part of the country by archeologists. The Moldavians (who were Slavic) claimed the land as part of their territory, but they did not populate the area. Most of the rest of the country was populated by Avars, whose settlements and cemetaries have been found everywhere, all over the place. I think there were some turkic bulgarians in the eastern part of the country too. All these people would have been culturally similar (perhaps even related)to the Magyars, perhaps they joined them and later on were assimilated.
If you're thinking about game balance and want an infantry unit for this faction you could invent some Avar unit. They probably would have had a spear or an axe unit, but once again they were a horse culture too! But for the Magyars I would go with cav only, they simply did not fight on foot. The whole horse archery thing worked out beautifully for them until they got beaten at Leichfield by the Germans.

mayby some pics of the irish warriors would help the skinners
and id like 2 see some irish warriors me being a O'Brien (note the irish spelling ~;) )

Irish spelling? O'Brien is an Anglicized version of the name. The true Irish spelling is Ui Boroime, or the later Ui Brean. O' is always the Anglicized version. Also, have no pictures I can find online, most of my knowledge of Irish, Scottish, and Welsh soldiers come from dark age period chronicles, mainly Irish monks, who were rather painstaking in their notations on the various soldiers.

i meant that it wasnt o'brian but o'brien u wont find the first as often as the second in ierland its more american (or somthing)

After my saxon invasion mod died within hours of being started, King Yngvar suggested that I help with this mod. So here I am. ~:)

I have some ideas for the mod.

1. The map ,in my opinion, is far to big for a Viking age mod. I know the Vikings raided in the mediterran a few times, but they didn't conquer anything. If you include the spanish, muslim countries, the holy roman empire etc, you will end up with countries that are more powerful and important than the Vikings. I think the map should include the northern part of europe, Iceland, Greenland, the baltic states and parts of russia. Maybe even Vinland (modern day Newfoundland)

2. The Vangrian Guard could be represented by a +1 experience building for some of the Viking factions e.g Novgorod, kiev.

3. I think the senate has to be on the map or the game will not work, if this is the case it could be put in Vinland, so it does not influence the game too much.

I know how to make new maps coding-wise, but the drawing bit would result in my computer going out of my window and being smashed into a billion pieces. I tried to make a map of Britain and Ireland and it nearly killed me, it just looked so wrong and messed up. I can change a map, but not start one

I am going to try to make some new units and look into other parts of the game. So I should be useful soon. ~:)

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And remember, the Irish flag is blue, not green, with a yellow Irish harp, and the Scots had just adopted St. Andrew's Cross for their flag (white criss-cross on a blue field) around 890. The flag of Leinster, and Dublin, for that matter, for a while anyway, was identical to the Irish flag, except the field was green.

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Interresting. Though Frankish Kingdom and Scotland will both be blue. Don't want too much of the same color, might need to use the Leinster flag there.

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Good then, that battles with the Scandinavians will be long, historically accurate, that. Brian Boroime used to say, when campaigning against the vikings and their Leinstermen allies; "The problem with the Danes is that they don't want to leave, and will fight until they're all dead. Their problem is that we'll do the same." Gaels, Scottish and Irish, were fiercely nationalistic, even though real nationalism wouldn't be typified until the French revolution, but this was really similar, and generally very religious. It'll be fun to see them fight with the Nordic invaders (Danes, in Ireland, most people assume the invaders there were from Hordaland and such, but the truth is, they were mainly Danes, and sometimes a few Jutes, however, the Irish called ALL Nords Danes, except those from Hordaland and Iceland, who were called Garedhgolth, Infernal Goths).

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Actually, while danes was used by English and normannes (spelling?) was used by French, the Irish called them men of lochlann. White lochlann and black lochlann was appearantly their names from Norway and Denmark. White lochlann being Norway. Olaf the White was kalled so because he was from Norway. I believe it had to do with the colour on the shields (might be on their cloaks). The first "Dublin king", Thorgest (or Turgeis as the Irish called him), was also from Norway. So the Dublin line of kings was Norwegian. And most of the settlers were Norwegians as well. In Normandy the case is pherhaps a little different, there the ruler was Norwegian while most of his followers was probably Danes.

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However, I'd not give them to the Irish, as they didn't use them nearly as often.

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In addition to being a Scottish unit, sinoach could be a mercenary unit. Thank you.

Hmm, Ranika, do you know of any good pictures we could use as a model for the skinning of those Irish units?

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I have forgotten to ask, have you decided upon just how large, for sure, you wish the map to be? How far east/how far south? It'd give me a better idea of how to recommend placement of mercenaries, like gallowglass, if I knew the general size of the potential areas. The gallowglass, for example, in a map with at least four Irish provinces, and a few in Scotland, would make more sense to have them as mercenaries only in the north of those countries, were they were most often employed. But, if smaller, then having them placed in all of the countries would probably be better.

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I was thinking about 3 provinces in Ireland (one held by Dublin-York) and 3 in Scotland (one held by Norway). England will have 4 (maybe 5) and Wales 1 (maybe 2).
This may be changed though, as this is just the beginning phase of the mod.

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On Welsh horse archers, I was a bit surprised, initially, too, as they were a type of skilled horse archer, not unlike the steppe people utilized, and likely comparable in their skill. But, they are a footnote in history, thus often overlooked, because they were overshadowed, easily, by the skill and science of Welsh longbows. However, they would give a unique dimension, I think, to a Welsh faction in the British isles.

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Sounds like they will be a tough nut to crack for Irishmen and Vikings ~:cool:

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I've no problem with two Kern units, that sounds fine to me, but if you can get a modeller on board for the project, you could model it all into one unit. That would save space, by removing one unit, since you can only have 300 units total.

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Probably the smartest, making kerns only skirmisher (don't want overpowered peasants) may be the smartest. The bonnaghts will get both throwing and normal spear.

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As for the bare legs remark, that is proper. You see, the leine, the shirt worn by Irish and Scots (and the Manx, too), comes only to the knee. So, the legs are generally bare. Only professional soldiers, in combat, wore trews (pants). On a statue, a leine looks like a kilt, it comes down about the same length, but kilts were not used until well into the late middle ages/early renaissance. In day-to-day wear, the average citizen, and even most of the arras, wore a leine, so their legs would be bare.

As for using the same Royal Guard, then go with Ridire. The Scots and Irish both used them, and the Welsh had an identical class of bodyguards, as did the pre-Nordic Manx and the pre-Saxon Corns. Ridire itself is the Saxon name that was used for all of them, they all had unique names though, but are commonly recognized as Ridire.

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Hmm, so our king wore poor-man clothing? ~;)

Ridire it is.

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King Yngvar! Yes I am very sure, Magyars would not have used Slavic warriors. When the Magyars invaded present day Hungary, Slavic presence was minimal, as far as I remember only one or two very small settlements have been found on the very far north west part of the country by archeologists. The Moldavians (who were Slavic) claimed the land as part of their territory, but they did not populate the area. Most of the rest of the country was populated by Avars, whose settlements and cemetaries have been found everywhere, all over the place. I think there were some turkic bulgarians in the eastern part of the country too. All these people would have been culturally similar (perhaps even related)to the Magyars, perhaps they joined them and later on were assimilated.
If you're thinking about game balance and want an infantry unit for this faction you could invent some Avar unit. They probably would have had a spear or an axe unit, but once again they were a horse culture too! But for the Magyars I would go with cav only, they simply did not fight on foot. The whole horse archery thing worked out beautifully for them until they got beaten at Leichfield by the Germans.

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They need some infantry, will limit it to maybe a spear unit, axe/sword unit and maybe an archer. Or we could just overpower their cavalry...

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I would like to contribute to this mod a little bit, if you wouldn't mind.

Cordoba had control of Tangiers and were at war with the Zenata tribe at that time, also the spanish factions are united here (they weren't), if i recall correctly, Crodoba had several trade treaties with leon (a state north of Lisbon) i can't recall the names of the other 2 states but they were at peace.

Also the unit lists for Fatimids, Cordoba and Abassids are pretty bland, i'll just do renames for them if you wouldn't mind.

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Asturia, Galicia and Pamplona, the latter being Navarrans (basques). However I do not wish such small provinces to be made, Asturia should be one faction and they will probably have one or two provinces. About the Morocco area, it was held by the Idrisid dynasty at that time. These were so insignificent that I do not even see a point of having them in this mod. The Idrisids controlled parts of modern day Morocco and parts of Algiers. At various occations, 920-925, 927-937 and 974-987, their land was occupied by Fatimids. Their "kingdom" fell in 974. Leaving the area as rebel land is just as good.

I know that the unit names for Muslim factions are silly and probably they are all copied from other games. My knowledge of Muslim history is pretty much "overall", I know about the dynasties who ruled when and where, the name of some rulers, and some of their political history. Not much detail. I would appreciate if you would like to rename them ~:)

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Well, if you need some help, I think I can work on the mapping. I have some knowledge about russians, frankish and possibly english provinces.

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Sounds good, if you would like to be our mapmaker. See the map, this is the idea we will base it on.

Anyone who wish to contact me outside the forum: yngvarv@hotmail.com.

https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v...%20Mod/911.jpg

I have started to work on the map, mostly changing or adding provinces and settlements. I'll post some screens later if I manage to correct all the errors.

As for the Senate, I was thinking about putting him as the Papal States, and make both Frankish Empire roman-like factions. I think that's the best way to deal with this problem, as it is somewhat accurate.

Thanks ~:) , here is the renamed list, i will not list stats as i realise it would be very unbalanced ~;p you do the stats as you see fit.

This is before it was editied :-

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Abbasid Caliphate

Peasants
Desert Bowmen
Syrian Archers
Crossbowmen -
Spearmen
Saracen Infantry
Nubian Spearmen -
Skirmishers
Beduin Camels -
Saracen Cavalry
Horse Archers
Ghulam Cavalry
Royal Cavalry

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This is After the Edition :-

Falahin - peasants ~;p
Arab Warband - (instead of Saracen infantry and Skirmishers) (skirmishers, good attack, armed with javelins, light chain armour)
Arab Cavalry - (instead of Saracen Cavalry) (light cavalry, javalin armed/light lances)
Askari - Spearmen (should be veterans, armoured)
Ghulam Cavalry - (heavy cavalry,armoured, good charge)
Royal Ghulam - (better version for royality only)
Turkoman Cavalry - (Instead of horse archers) (horse archer that can skirmish, decent armour)
Arab Longbows - (instead of Desert Archers) (good shooting skill)
Syrian Archers - (good shooting skill, can skirmish)

Units with "-" in the quote remain unchanged.

Actually to make your task easier King Yngvar the abassid units could also be used by the fatimids and cordobans to some extent (cordobans also had spanish, and visigoth recruits, Visigoth are mainly cavalry), Turkic units are used by abassids mostly, so they don't apply for cordobans and fatimids.

Also i hope no one from the Medieval mods mind if i used the same unit names here ~;p. i'll try to refine the lists some more, but as for now the Abassids are done, i'll try to modify the fatimids and Cordobans a bit in a later post, my final post will probably have descriptions for these units.

Here's a screenshot of some new provinces in the north of france

http://www.image-dump.com/view.php?m=1&x=22149

I made that fairly easily, though an annoying bug made me to restart everything (I firstly had all the whole France and northen Spain remade).


Adding provinces seems not that hard, the main problem will IMO adding territories in the north. I haven't tried to do that today, but I'll have a look at it tomorrow, if possible

Well, the blue of the flag of Ireland should actually be more pale. While it is often now depicted as dark blue, it's much lighter than the Scottish flag is. And Brian DID call them Danes, it appears in his writings. The general Irish names used for the vikings were more slang than they were a designation of nationalities. On Irish maps, it's important to note that all of Scandinavia is called Doahnbhuil, Daneland. While the Irish knew of multiple kingdoms there, all of them, in the 'upper crust' of educated Irish society, were called Danes (Doahn in the old Irish of the west of Connacht). Subsequently, the names applied to different Scandinavians are attributable, largely, to the Leinstermen, who were often working with the vikings. Most of the Irish simply weren't aware there any differences, and in Connacht and Munster especially, the general slang term for all Scandinavians was Bohrcach, Road Men, though, I honestly don't know WHY they were called Road Men.

Of the leine, it's not poor man's clothing. Kings and the like wore it too, but they also had the option open to robes and the like. Leine, to the contrary of being a poor man's clothing, could be quite rich in appearance, with many ornaments sewn on, or elaborate designs or weaves. The leine was casual clothing for most Irish nobility, while robes and cloaks were more for ceremonies or formal occassions, and even then, many would forego such clothing in favor of the leine, which was considered more comfortable much of the time. Note that I mention that the arras/aires wore them too. Aires are Irish nobility.

As for bonnaghts, they should only have one spear to throw, and then use their melee spear. Kerns should have a spear for melee, but no anti-cavalry bonus, I think, as it was generally a short spear meant to engage infantry with. Well, 'infantry', kerns were an anti-levymen force, really.

Addendum: I was reading, and the name 'bohrcach trodai' shows up, denoting viking mercenaries. These mercenaries were largely fairly well equipped warriors, with shields, swords, spears, or axes, and high quality shields. In all cases but the axes, they appear to have provided their own equipment. I say not for the axes, because their are letters written asking for axes to be supplied for a group of bohrcach trodai, as the ri of the Thomond tribe wanted some axemen for fighting the chainmaille heavy clan force of the Mac Nois, and he already had as many axemen as he could get from the clan, without resorting to untrained levies, which wouldn't be any good at all against the well-trained force of the Mac Nois.

Some other mercenaries possible for northern Britain and Ireland:

Gael Gaedhil Buanna, while generally brigands and thieves, during wartime, they were often paid to fight, and Brian Boroime, especially, used them. He would actually raise entire forces of Gael Gaedhil and send them raiding parts of modern England and Scotland, just to get rid of them, until they were slaughtered in massive numbers at the Battle of Clontarf (Brian's intention for their presence, the chance to get them killed). Gael Gaedhil are of Gaelic and Nordic blood, and generally adopted fighting techniques from both. They used, often, axes or swords, a javelin, a leather shirt (though just as often, they would be totally unarmored, sometimes bare chested and wearing trews) and solid wood shield (often taken or bought from vikings), usually provided for them, and accompanied this equipment with whatever other armor or weapons they may have 'cannabalized' from their raiding and thieving. Both the Gaels and the vikings HATED Gael Gaedhil, and made no secret of it, but their quality combat skills made them useful for softening up heavier infantry formations. The Gael Gaedhil were used all over Ireland, and in Alba and the Hebrides, as well, though they showed up their much more rarely. (Buanna is simply a Gaelic word meaning a mercenary, and is thus applied to Gael Gaedhil in this case, to differentiate them from the normal 'thief' Gael Gaedhil).

Gallowglass were already discussed. I don't object to their presence, though they'd not be mentioned by name until the mid 1200s. However, there are some reports of mercenaries from the Hebrides, and the descriptions are similar. They used chainmaille, an axe on a long pole, and wore an iron helmet, often of Norman make. They were present in the north of Ireland all over north Scotland, on the Isle of Mann, and along the west English and Welsh coasts. Because of the earlier reports of similar warriors, by Donall Ui Arran.

Gorddgwas/Ordgwas are Welsh or Cornish (with the respective spellings) mercenary soldiers who used warhammers. These hammers were a heavy head on a two foot grip, with a large shield. They were used throughout Wales, Cornwall, and much of Great Britain, as well as south-east Ireland, and the south-west shores of modern day Scotland. They dressed in a saffron tunic, with pants, and leather shoes, and wore a leather cap. If used, this unit should have the 'ap' (armor piercing) trait for their attack, as their hammer had a flat head, with a pick side, so as to puncture various types of armor. While it may seem like a unit to give to the Welsh as buildable, the notable part of their name is 'gwas', which is a 'military servant', implying some one paid to fight, not trained into the army.

Lendan is the word for 'Concubine' (and also the basis of the Irish word leannán, meaning 'sweetheart'). Soailtaght Lendan Ysgien were Manx male, concubine 'knife' fighters (Soailtaght is 'an effeminate male', Ysgien is the Welsh 'knife'). However, they were niether, generally, assumed to be effeminate, nor did they fight with knives, but instead with shortswords, and in groups of twelve. They were bought, being technically slaves, and were intended for 'accompaniement' for warriors who'd be spending a long time on campaign (and thus away from women, and they served the additional bonus of being efficient ambushers). Like most dark age 'specialized' soldiers, these are a footnote, but, for more obvious reasons. The 'male concubine soldier' isn't exactly something you'd brag about. They're mentioned by Saint Deiniol, a Welsh saint who voiced only slight disapproval of them, saying that while he did not fully approve, he hoped they would at least help stem constant rape that would occur often when an army sacked a town or city, much like Thomas Aquinas's arguments in the favor of legalized prostitution, to stem the tide of domestic sexual abuses in France. Deiniol's main complaint, aside from their...ancillary purposes (yes, that'll do nicely), is that they were slaves. He describes them as using shortswords, and wearing red cloaks. Their availability would be in, likely, the Celtic areas of Britain, as they were more acceptable there, usually, than in the Roman rite areas of the church.

Manx Fer Cliwe were Manx warriors. While very rare to be hired by outside armies, the Manx sometimes did hire themselves to eastern Irish armies, as well as to western British armies. Fer Cliwe is literally 'man sword', but is translated to English as 'sword bearer', or 'swordsmen'. The Manx swordsmen were fairly unique, they were of Nordo-Gaelic extraction, and used a combination of viking, Gaelic, and Welsh arms and armor. Their principle weapon was a viking sword, and they wore thick leather brigadines with metal studs on them (also a viking introduction, I think). They used oval shields of a Welsh design, probably originally intended to be used from horseback.

Saighdearbuanna are Welsh mercenary archers in Ireland and Scotland. Isn't much to be said about them, really. They dressed in light tunics and pants, with leather shoes, and used Welsh shortbows. If it's possible to have light archers as a buildable unit, and as mercenaries, that'd be the most workable. These were the Irish mercenary archers I believe I mentioned briefly.


A minor change, Iobnaght is the name given in Munster, but much more common to Irish axemen is tuagachnaght.

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...4&page=1&pp=30 Meneldil, it seems there is a possibility to expand the map, the guys over at "Europa Barbarorum" is attempting this. Thank you for starting the work on the campaign map, I could unfortunately not connect to the link you posted. Would you like to be our mapmaker then? ~:)

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After my saxon invasion mod died within hours of being started, King Yngvar suggested that I help with this mod. So here I am.

I have some ideas for the mod.

1. The map ,in my opinion, is far to big for a Viking age mod. I know the Vikings raided in the mediterran a few times, but they didn't conquer anything. If you include the spanish, muslim countries, the holy roman empire etc, you will end up with countries that are more powerful and important than the Vikings. I think the map should include the northern part of europe, Iceland, Greenland, the baltic states and parts of russia. Maybe even Vinland (modern day Newfoundland)

2. The Vangrian Guard could be represented by a +1 experience building for some of the Viking factions e.g Novgorod, kiev.

3. I think the senate has to be on the map or the game will not work, if this is the case it could be put in Vinland, so it does not influence the game too much.

I know how to make new maps coding-wise, but the drawing bit would result in my computer going out of my window and being smashed into a billion pieces. I tried to make a map of Britain and Ireland and it nearly killed me, it just looked so wrong and messed up. I can change a map, but not start one

I am going to try to make some new units and look into other parts of the game. So I should be useful soon.

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Sorry I overlooked you post yesterday as I was posting at the same time. If you are good at making units. I would like to have you on the team. There is another guy as well that may be into unit making, I am still not sure. But the more people the better. About the Vikings not becoming important, well the solution to that is to make them powerful. What would be essential for a Viking kingdom to maintain strength would be to unite the Scandinavian kingdoms into one. Norway's starting strength compared to the others would be amount of provinces, Denmark's would be wealth of provinces, while Sweden's would be that they can easily expand into un-owned territory to the east (Finland and the Baltics). About the Senate, really? Well, maybe we could make a far gone island for them (in the corner somewhere).

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And Brian DID call them Danes, it appears in his writings.

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He called them Danes, but that did not mean they were from Denmark. It was a term used on everyone who spoke "danish tongue" (Old-Norse).

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As for bonnaghts, they should only have one spear to throw, and then use their melee spear. Kerns should have a spear for melee, but no anti-cavalry bonus, I think, as it was generally a short spear meant to engage infantry with. Well, 'infantry', kerns were an anti-levymen force, really.

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Alright, I may have misunderstood it them. Kerns can be skirmishers, just that they have a short spear instead of dagger to fight with in melee.



Meneldil, I shall make a province idea and name the provinces now...

The Scottish knifemen would be more like skirmishers, identical really. They threw four or five short javelins before drawing a bollock knife to melee with.

Heh, forget what I said about placing the Senate in some distant corner, the papacy is the senate and gives "senate missions" to catholic kingdoms. You can change the name right?

Abbasid Caliphate

Falahin - (muslim peasants, maybe the rest of the Muslims shall use the same then)
Arab Warband - (instead of Saracen infantry and Skirmishers) (skirmishers, good attack, armed with javelins, light chain armour)
Arab Cavalry - (instead of Saracen Cavalry) (light cavalry, javalin armed/light lances)
Nubian Spearmen (slightly better than spearmen)
Askari Spearmen (should be veterans, armoured)
Bedouin Camels
Ghulam Cavalry - (heavy cavalry,armoured, good charge)
Royal Ghulam - (better version for royality only)
Horse Archers (keep this, standard "eastern" horse archers, turkoman will be a better version)
Turkoman Cavalry - (Instead of horse archers) (horse archer that can skirmish, decent armour)
Crossbowmen
Arab Longbows - (instead of Desert Archers) (good shooting skill)
Syrian Archers - (good shooting skill, can skirmish)

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The Scottish knifemen would be more like skirmishers, identical really. They threw four or five short javelins before drawing a bollock knife to melee with.

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Umm, what about making a "Celtic Peasant" for them all, that throw spears and then draw up knives?

NEW MAP

https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v...od911idea2.bmp

The idea with those green provinces in Finland, you might be wondering about them. But I tought that the load of rebel provinces in the east would make it simple for the Swedes and Kijevans, so adding a competitor in the Baltic region would be nice. It is not necessary, just another idea...

Amount of provinces: 160

I have cut down on provinces some places. Rhodes is no longer a province for example, Sicilia will be two instead of three and Tunisia will also just be one province. To strengthen the Scandinavians I think there should be an extra province in Sweden, two Denmark and two in Norway. Sweden gets one of the extra province in Denmark, Sudr-Jylland (town - Hedeby) because Swedes controlled that point at the time this game starts. Sweden now has 6, Norway has 7 and Denmark 3 provinces. So Denmark will get one more - Halland. They can be strengthen by making the provinces richer. And they will have an easy time taking Hedeby from the Swedes, and Sudr-Jylland should be a rich province.

That would work (a Celtic peasant), and save space. While not as common, some Irish kerns DID use knives (particularly in Munster, where there was more iron to go around for the knives). I'm assuming the Dublin-York vikings possess Leinster? The map isn't showing up for me. What are the British and Irish provinces? Also, the Welsh would utilize more...peasant-like peasants, unarmed or poorly armed peasant throngs, and should just have 'regular' peasants. In such a case, the Irish/Scots should have 'Gaelic Peasants', I think.

Total, there can be around 200 provinces, so a pretty complex map can be made, I believe, compared to the original Rome's map, which had a bit overm 100 provinces?

The reason the map did not show up is that I edited it, I realised that Sweden needed control of Hedeby. I wish the Irish to hold Munster, Connaght and Ulster/Ui Neill. If 200 provinces can be made, great. But of course we need to make them all and if one guy alone is going to make them it will take alot of work. But if we get more people on board, sure we can do 200 provinces ~:)

~Britannia~
England: Wessex, Cornwall and Midlands

Dublin-York: Dublin, Northumberland and East Anglia

Ireland: Munster, Connaght and Ulster

Wales: Dyfed and Gwynedd(name?)

Scotland: Lowlands, Highlands and The Grampians


~Scandinavia~
Norway: Viken, Agdir, Oppland, Hordaland, Trønderlag, Hålogaland and Orkney

Sweden: Svitjod, Gautaland, Vermland, Uppland, Gotland and Sudr-Jylland

Denmark: Sjælland, Skåne, Halland and Nord-Jylland

Rebel provinces in Scandinavia: Jamtland and Norrland


~Germania~
German Kingdom: Saxland, Frisland, Lotharingia, Franconia, Thuringia, Swabia, Bavaria and Carinthia

Vendland: Vendland and Veletia

Rebel provinces near Germany: Moravia, Sorbland and Ostmark


~Gallia~
Frankish Kingdom
East-Francia, West-Francia, Flanders, Burgundy, West-Aquitaine, East-Aquitaine, Toulouse, Gothia and County of Barcelona (in Iberia)

Normandy
Normandie and East-Britanny

Rebel provinces in France: Britanny, Upper Burgundy and Lower Burgundy


~Iberia~
Asturia: Asturias and Galicia

Cordoba: Toledo, Lusitania, Granada, Cordoba, Valencia and Zaragosa

Rebel provinces in Iberia: Pamplona


~Italia~
Italy: Savoy, Lombardy, Venetia, Tuscany and Spoleto

Papacy: Papal State (Roma)

Rebel provinces in Italia: Benevento


~Balkans~
Bulgaria:

Magyars:
NEED PROVINCE NAMES

Except,

Rebel Provinces in Balkans: Dalmatia, Croatia and Rashka


~Balticum~
Finnish Tribes: Finland, Kainu, Häme, Bjarmaland and Karjala

Rebel provinces in Balticum: Estland, Livland and Lithuania


~Russia~
Gardariki: Holmgard, Aldgjuborg, Jordlav, Polotsk, Gnezdovo, Kijev/Kjönugard and Khazar March

Khazar Khanate: Crimea, Chersonia, Western-Khazaria, Eastern-Khazaria and Avaria

Rebel Provinces: Armenia, Georgia, Pechnegia, Volga Bulgharia, Murom, Mordivia, Northern Lands(eh, can't find name on that last one)


~Byzantia~
Byzantine Empire:
(in Italy) Thane of Sicily, Longibardia
(in Greece) Peloponese, Hellas, Macedonia, Nicopolis, Thrace and Crete
(in Asia Minor) Optimaton, Thracesia, Anatolia, Seleucia, Trebizbond, Chaldea and Kypros


~The Caliphate~
Abbasid Caliphate: NEED NAMES HERE

~North Africa~
Fatimid Caliphate: Tunisia, South Sicilia, North Sicilia, Libya, Cyrenaica (need names on the far western one and the inland eastern one)

Rebel provinces in North Africa: Tangiers and Sahara


~Mediterraneum~
Rebel provinces in Mediterraneum: Balearic Isles and Sardinia


~Poland and surroundings~
Poland:

Rebel provinces near Poland:

NEED NAMES HERE

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More province names coming up later. (City names not included, some of these province names are actually city names. Suggestions are welcomed.)

Those all sound good to me, except Ui Neill was actually only part of Ulster, the name of Ulster, in Irish, is Ulaid. Ui Neill is a tribal sub-kingdom that controlled Ulster, and for a long time, the line of the high kings was drawn from them. However, Brian, who was a Dal Cais, moved the capitol from Tara to his citadel at Cashel in north Munster, and the line of the kings changed significantly.

Tara was the seat of the high-kings right? Read something interresting a while ago, the first Nordic king that controlled Dublin, Thorgest, is supposed to have captured Tara and declared himself high-king. He was killed in Ulster and thrown into a lake.

It was the seat of high kings until 986 AD, when Cashel in Munster became the new seat, until 1093 AD, when the seat was restored at Tara, but only until 1097, when it was moved to Armagh briefly, and then back to Cashel in 1102 AD.

Tara was the more steady seat of the high kings before the 900s, when the only time it moved was to Armagh for about 30 years, somewhere within 530-580, probably around 540-570 AD.

In 1174 AD, it was moved again, BACK to Tara, where it'd remain, though the following year, Henry II of England would call himself Lord of Ireland (which was ignored, largely, by the western counties, and southernmost counties of Leinster).

Edit; In 986, forgot to mention, Brian was not yet actually high king, when he 'moved' the capitol from Tara to Cashel, as he was not technically king of Ireland, he was the kingdom of Munster and Connacht, and DECLARED he was king of Ireland, but there was still resistance from the Ulstermen. Brian would not officially be high king until 1002, after he takes the crown of Ulster, and unites Ireland except for Dublin and the northern counties of Leinster (but the southern Laigin tribes had sworn fealty to Brian, but would betray him at Clontarf in 1014). After the battle of Clontarf, which Brian died in, his former rival, the former king of Ulster, was already appointed to sucede Brian. Máel Sechnaill macDomnaill O'Néill, retook the throne of Ulster, and was high king of a truly united Ireland. He kept the technical seat at Cashel out of respect for Brian, and it remained there until Domnall macArdgar O'Lochlainn O'Néill became king in 1090, where he began the process of moving the seat back to Tara, accomplished in 1093, then to Armagh in 1097, but then back to Cashel in 1102, because of a request from one of his cousins who was descended from Brian. In 1174, it was returned to Tara by high king Ruaidrí macToirrdelbaig, in a deal with Henry II of England, who then declared himself lord of Ireland. Here, the line of high kings effectively ends, at Tara, later high kings established themselves away from Tara, in fear of a capture by English. The only Irish high king after Ruadri to have his capitol at Tara was Brian Catha an Duin, as English power had wained in Ireland when he came to power. There was a Scottish-born high king, Edward de Bruce, who would establish himself there, as well, but after the debacle with Henry II, the state of the high kingship, and the seat of power, was generally at whatever fortress or citadel the current high king would set up for himself.


If you can get enough of a team together, maybe see if you can get this hosted, as I'd really like to see this mod done, and having it hosted would probably attract more people willing to work on it. I'm busy a bit with Europa Barborum, but would really do what I can to help here. Trying to find some decent pictures online, but every I can find are only MEDIEVAL Irish, and they looked different (such as, by then, Kern meant any basic soldier, so pictures of medieval Kerns show Irish light infantry, who used a lochaber axe, not the dark age peasant levies).

Quote:

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If you can get enough of a team together, maybe see if you can get this hosted, as I'd really like to see this mod done, and having it hosted would probably attract more people willing to work on it. I'm busy a bit with Europa Barborum, but would really do what I can to help here. Trying to find some decent pictures online, but every I can find are only MEDIEVAL Irish, and they looked different (such as, by then, Kern meant any basic soldier, so pictures of medieval Kerns show Irish light infantry, who used a lochaber axe, not the dark age peasant levies).

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Would probably attract more people yes. And it would be more organized with more topics on the different fields. I guess we have some people now, from the totalrome forums and here. Campaign map makers, pherhaps a couple of possible unit skinners and historical info peoples. Who do you think I shall ask for some hosting space, someone here in totalwar.org?

Possibly, I'm not totally sure how to go about it. I would look at getting it hosted here though, but I like the forum organization, and the org does get a good number of really talented individuals through it.

Quote:

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The idea with those green provinces in Finland, you might be wondering about them. But I tought that the load of rebel provinces in the east would make it simple for the Swedes and Kijevans, so adding a competitor in the Baltic region would be nice. It is not necessary, just another idea...

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I would very humbly like to suggest adding a few Finnic and baltic tribes to the baltic and Finland. All of the research (which took me a long time and lots of work) would be ready. Here is a summary of my research and how it would be implemented into FotN: https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showp...&postcount=642 .
Feel free to use any of the info there.

Thank you Wilpuri, would it be appropriate to name my South-Finland (Helsinki based) province Häme, even if it is not located to the Gulf of Botnia? The name was Kainu for Kvenland, had forgotten that one. Will use the Finnish one. About Finland, I will choose to use the Swedish name for that province. Karjala is only south Karjala here, the northern part will be named Bjarmaland after what the Norwegians from Hålogaland who traded and raided there called it.

If you have ideas for Finnish character names, please tell us ~:)

Quote:

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Possibly, I'm not totally sure how to go about it. I would look at getting it hosted here though, but I like the forum organization, and the org does get a good number of really talented individuals through it.

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Maybe send a PM to a moderator? I'll think about that...

I'm having a problem with my PMs, this happens to me intermittently, but I'll keep trying.

Do you have updated unit lists? And maybe prepare a unit list for potential mercenaries and rebel units?

Quote:

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Scandinavian Kingdoms (Norway, Sweden and Denmark):

Trell Knifemen
Trell Spearmen
Leidang Spearmen
Light Archers
Leidang Archers
Huskarl Arhcers
Viking Axemen
Berserkers
Ulfhedin Berserkers
Huskarl Swordsmen
Huskarl Axemen
Hirdmen
Horse Raiders

Snekkja
Drakkr
Bardi


Dublin-York

Trell Spearmen
Bonnaght Spearmen
Dibhlann Swordsmen
Viking Axemen
Berserkers
Huskarl Swordsmen
Huskarl Axemen
Hirdmen (royal guard)
Horse Raiders
Hobilars

Boats:

Snekkja


Scotland

Gaelic Peasants
Pict Levies
Light Archers
Spearmen
Armored Spearmen
Celtic Swordsmen
Batareicht Swordsmen
Sinoach Warriors
Claymore Warriors
Ridire Guard (infantry)
Light Cavalry


Wessex

Light Archers
Peasants
Fyrd Spearmen
Fyrd Axemen
Skirmishers
Huskarl Axemen
Huskarl Swordsmen
Royal Huskarls
Light Cavalry
Saxon Cavalry


Wales

Peasants
Light Archers
Longbowmen
Spearmen
Armored Spearmen
Welsh Axemen
Skirmishers
Celtic Swordsmen
Briton Swordsmen
Light Cavalry
Hill Horsemen (missiled)
Ridire Guard (infantry)


Irish

Gaelic Peasants
Raighhangh Berserkers
Kern Spearmen (spears only, will add them if space only)
Bonnaght Spearmen
Iobnaght Axemen
Celtic Swordsmen
Dibhlann Swordsmen
Batareicht Swordsmen
Ridire Guard (Infantry)
Light Cavalry
Hobilars


Kijev

Peasants
Light Archers
Slavic Archers
Rus Spearmen
Armored Rus Spearmen
Slavic Axemen
Viking Axemen
Berserkers
Varangian Axemen (another version of Huskarls, not quite as good)
Varangian Swordsmen (another version of Huskarls, not quite as good)
Royal Varangians
Light Cavalry
Boyars (heavy)
Steppe Cavalry (missiled)


Magyars

Peasants
Spearmen
Magyar Archers
Skirmishers
Avar Axemen
Light Cavalry
Steppe Cavalry
Magyar Horse Archers
Heavy Lancers
Royal Lancers


Khazars

Peasants
Spearmen
Khazar Archers
Skirmishers
Light Cavalry
Steppe Cavalry
Khazar Horse Archers
Heavy Lancers
Royal Lancers


Byzantine Empire

Peasants
Byzantine Archers
Trebizbond Archers
Crossbowmen
Pilum Skirmishers
Byzantine Spearmen
Roman Swordsmen
Varangian Axemen (another version of Huskarls, not quite as good)
Varangian Swordsmen (another version of Huskarls, not quite as good)
Cathapracts
Pronoias
Horse Archers
Royal Cathapracts


Abbasid Caliphate

Falahin (peasants)
Arab Warband (skirmishers)
Saber Warriors
Desert Warriors
Arab Cavalry
Slave Spearmen
Nubian Spearmen
Arab Spearmen
Bedouin Camels
Ghulam Cavalry
Royal Ghulam
Horse Archers
Turkoman Cavalry (missiled)
Crossbowmen
Desert Archers
Arab Longbows
Syrian Archers


Fatimid Caliphate

Falahin (peasants)
Spearmen
Arab Warband
Slave Spearmen
Arab Spearmen
Saber Warriors
Desert Warriors
Light Camels
Desert Archers
Arab Longbows
Berber Cavalry
Arab Cavalry
Ghulam Cavalry
Royal Ghulam


Cordoba

Falahin (peasants)
Slave Spearmen
Arab Spearmen
Arab Warband
Saber Warriors
Desert Warriors
Moorish Infantry (elite sabermen)
Desert Archers
Arab Longbows
Arab Cavalry
Moorish Heavy Cavalry
Horse Archers
Royal Cavalry


Wends

Peasants
Slavic Axemen
Slavic Archers
Spearmen
Armored Spearmen
Skirmishers
Berserkers
Wendish Swordsmen
Bearded Axemen
Royal Guard (infantry)
Horse Raiders


Poland

Peasants
Slavic Axemen
Slavic Archers
Spearmen
Armored Spearmen
Skirmishers
Polish Swordsmen
Royal Guard (infantry)
Light Cavalry
Polish Cavalry


Bulgaria

Peasants
Spearmen
Armored Spearmen
Slavic Axemen
Slavic Archers
Bulgarian Brigands
Light Cavalry
Steppe Cavalry
Heavy Lancers
Boyars


Asturia

Peasants
Spearmen
Armored Spearmen
Skirmishers
Light Archers
Highland Axemen
Galician Infantry
Asturian Swordsmen
Royal Guardsmen
Light Cavalry


Normandy (will have a "reform" system like the Romans, take place in between 970-1000 maybe)

Peasants
Spearmen
Armored Spearmen
Light Archers
Heavy Archers
Viking Axemen
Berserkers
Huskarl Swordsmen
Huskarl Axemen
Hirdmen
Horse Raiders

~After reform~
Peasants
Spearmen
Armored Spearmen
Light Archers
Heavy Archers
Skirmishers
Light Swordsmen
Norman Swordsmen
Light Cavalry
Retainer Cavalry
Norman Knights
Skirmisher Cavalry
Royal Knights


German Kingdom

Peasants
Spearmen
Armored Spearmen
Light Archers
Heavy Archers
Skirmishers
Saxon Axemen
Light Swordsmen
Swabian Swordsmen
Light Cavalry
Feudal Knights
Royal Knights


Frankish Kingdom

Peasants
Spearmen
Armored Spearmen
Light Archers
Axe Skirmishers
Skirmishers
Light Swordsmen
Frankish Swordsmen
Light Cavalry
Feudal Knights
Frankish Knights
Royal Knights


Italy

Peasants
Spearmen
Italian Spearmen
Langobardian Axemen
Light Swordsmen
Italian Swordsmen
Light Archers
Venetian Archers
Crossbowmen
Light Cavalry
Feudal Knights
Royal Knights


Papacy

Peasants
Spearmen
Italian Spearmen
Light Swordsmen
Italian Swordsmen
Light Archers
Heavy Archers
Crossbowmen
Light Cavalry
Feudal Knights
Royal Knights

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Quote:

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I'm having a problem with my PMs, this happens to me intermittently, but I'll keep trying.

Do you have updated unit lists? And maybe prepare a unit list for potential mercenaries and rebel units?

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Umm, could you make a list for the British isles please?

At least the Jomsvikings will be able to hire in:
Vendland
Veletia
Sudr-Jylland
Nord-Jylland
Sjælland
Skåne
Halland
Gautaland
Gotland
Svitjod
Viken
Agdir
Hordaland
Trønderlag

-> Basically the coastal provinces of Scandinavia, except the northermost ones...

Alright, a list, so far, potentially for what I'd use for British isles mercs:

Gael Gaedhil Buanna; All of Ireland and Scotland

Gallowglass (assuming you wish to use them); Connacht, Ulster, Dublin, the Highlands, the Grampians

Gorddgwas; Dublin, all of Britain south of Scotland, edit: and possibly the north of France, maybe just Brittany, it seems a few fought in Brittany, as a Welsh prince has a record of recieving payment for, essentially, renting out his own mercenary Gorddgwas for something I can't quite determine, in Brittany. His records don't say why they were there, and the record is in somewhat poor condition, including, damnably, the year, so I can't determine what was going on in Brittany at the time.

Manx Fer Cliwe; York, Wales, Cornwall, Dublin, Ulster, Lowlands

Mercenary Welsh Archers (whatever name you might wish, the one suggested earlier, Saighdearbuanna, is of Irish origin); All of Britain and Ireland

Mercenary Vikings (Possibly two or three units, as the Irish and Scots, particularly, employed various mercenaries, axemen, swordsmen, and spearmen); all of Britain and Ireland

Leinstermen; Dublin and York, a light armored poleax infantry unit that would become the standard for Irish armies in later periods. Possibly make a localized unit to Dublin, or a unit for the Dublin-York faction.

Edit 2, Rebels:
As for rebels, I think 'indigenous' units should be used in their particular areas, if possible, such as Gaelic peasants in Ireland and Scotland, along with maybe a few actual soldier type units, like Celtic Swordsmen. This would give the sense of the minor kingdoms that were present, but lacked the cohesiveness to have the more professional and advanced soldiers, but also keeps the rebels proper to the area. Is this possible?

Alright, I've finally managed to increase the map height and run the game without any script/generic error.
Now, there's one problem you might already have heard of : there are graphical glitches on the campaign map once you've increased its size.
Some of them I can deal with (it looks like some cliffs are somewhat messed up once you've edited the map, so I had to delete cliffs in corsica and in Brittany, might delete a few other laters), but it looks like I won't be able to get rid of some of those problems (mainly on the coasts, I'll have a look at the map_groundtype file, but I don't think it will be of any help)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by King Yngvar

Thank you Wilpuri, would it be appropriate to name my South-Finland (Helsinki based) province Häme, even if it is not located to the Gulf of Botnia? The name was Kainu for Kvenland, had forgotten that one. Will use the Finnish one. About Finland, I will choose to use the Swedish name for that province. Karjala is only south Karjala here, the northern part will be named Bjarmaland after what the Norwegians from Hålogaland who traded and raided there called it.

If you have ideas for Finnish character names, please tell us ~:)

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Well, if Finland is going to be split up like this

https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v...od911idea2.bmp
And you are going to have the following tribes:

Quote:

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~Balticum~
Finnish Tribes: Finland, Kainu, Häme, Bjarmaland and Karjala

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Then you don't have enough provinces. I'm guessing "Finland" is the same as the Suoma faction. At the moment, the Suoma and the Häme would be sharing the same province. The Province that goes along the gulf of Bothnia should be for the Kainuu, the South Eastern Province for the Karelians and the N. East province for the Perms (Bjarms). Either you have to add one more province into western Finland to make room for both Suoma and Häme, or then leave out one of the tribes. If you choose to leave one of those two tribes out, I would keep Häme and leave out Suoma.

I would have the South West as Häme or Vakka-Suomi, depending on which tribe you will keep. If you add a province, you can have both Häme and Vakka-Suomi.

As for the character names, give me you email and I will send you the namelist we will use for FotN. Its quite extensive. The ideas for units is in the post I referred to earlier, feel free to use the ideas there as you please.

In the end, all the info you really need is right here: https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showp...&postcount=642


One more thing:
https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v...od911idea2.bmp

In this map, you have Ingria/Ingermanland/Inkerinmaa/Staraya Ladoga (You know which province I mean ~:) ) labeled as belonging to Novgorod (or I presume its Novgorod/Rus?), when in reality, through out most of the viking age, it was in the hands of the Ingrians (Inkeri) themselves.

Byzantine Empire- Demon's Suggestions

Peasants- Nix this one, or replace with Imperial Garrison Troops/Militiamen
Byzantine Archers- Call them Psiloi
Trebizbond Archers- Anatolian Highlanders
Crossbowmen- Not used until 1st Crusade Arrives.
Pilum Skirmishers- Peltastoi
Byzantine Spearmen- Skutatoi
Roman Swordsmen- Veristitatae
Varangian Axemen (another version of Huskarls, not quite as good)- Paramonai. And yes, they're as good as the huskarls, and also, they would have byzantine equipment.
Varangian Swordsmen (another version of Huskarls, not quite as good)- Also Paramonai
Cathapracts- Kavallaroi
Pronoias- Replace with Latinikon (Western Mercenary Knights)
Horse Archers- Call them Foederati Skythikon
Royal Cathapracts- Klibanophoroi (sp?)

Quote:

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Byzantine Empire- Demon's Suggestions

Peasants- Nix this one, or replace with Imperial Garrison Troops/Militiamen
Byzantine Archers- Call them Psiloi
Trebizbond Archers- Anatolian Highlanders
Crossbowmen- Not used until 1st Crusade Arrives.
Pilum Skirmishers- Peltastoi
Byzantine Spearmen- Skutatoi
Roman Swordsmen- Veristitatae
Varangian Axemen (another version of Huskarls, not quite as good)- Paramonai. And yes, they're as good as the huskarls, and also, they would have byzantine equipment.
Varangian Swordsmen (another version of Huskarls, not quite as good)- Also Paramonai
Cathapracts- Kavallaroi
Pronoias- Replace with Latinikon (Western Mercenary Knights)
Horse Archers- Call them Foederati Skythikon
Royal Cathapracts- Klibanophoroi (sp?)

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What about:

Militiamen
Psiloi
Anatolian Highlanders (archers)
Peltastoi
Skutatoi Spearmen
Veristitatae Swordsmen
Varangian Axemen (another version of Huskarls, not quite as good)- Paramonai. They did not use Byzantine equipment until later. Later on the Varangian ranks became filled up with Englishmen and others. At this point they were purely Nordic (and some Slavs). Varangian name stays, they will be the same unit as the one for Gardariki. They will not be quite as good as huskarls. One reason is that Gardariki already has better units than the Scandinavian kingdoms. Another thing is that the Varangians actually were not as trained warriors as the huskarls at this point.
Varangian Swordsmen (another version of Huskarls, not quite as good)
Horse Archers (this is the basic one, the one below can be a special Byzantine version)
Foederati Skythikon
Latinikon
Kavallaroi
Klibanophoroi (royal guard cavalry)


Thank you for the suggestions in unit names ~:)

Quote:

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Then you don't have enough provinces. I'm guessing "Finland" is the same as the Suoma faction. At the moment, the Suoma and the Häme would be sharing the same province. The Province that goes along the gulf of Bothnia should be for the Kainuu, the South Eastern Province for the Karelians and the N. East province for the Perms (Bjarms). Either you have to add one more province into western Finland to make room for both Suoma and Häme, or then leave out one of the tribes. If you choose to leave one of those two tribes out, I would keep Häme and leave out Suoma.

I would have the South West as Häme or Vakka-Suomi, depending on which tribe you will keep. If you add a province, you can have both Häme and Vakka-Suomi.

As for the character names, give me you email and I will send you the namelist we will use for FotN. Its quite extensive. The ideas for units is in the post I referred to earlier, feel free to use the ideas there as you please.

In the end, all the info you really need is right here: https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showp...5&postcount=642

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Hmm, you speak about tribes, getting me a little confused. But I assume you mean provinces? I am not planning on having 5 Finnish factions, that would be too much. I think the name of the faction "Finnish Tribes" is ok for now, any other suggestion? A province could be added in Finland, some provinces could be fixed on as well.

Could we use those unit names? If so, thanks alot ~:)

Quote:

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In this map, you have Ingria/Ingermanland/Inkerinmaa/Staraya Ladoga (You know which province I mean ) labeled as belonging to Novgorod (or I presume its Novgorod/Rus?), when in reality, through out most of the viking age, it was in the hands of the Ingrians (Inkeri) themselves.

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Ingermanland will probably be the province name here, as I am very certain that it was held by Gardariki at the time this mod will start. It was held by Finns between 838 and 862, but from then on held by Gardariki (Kijevan Rus) and whoever held Holmgard/Novgorod later on. The city name will be Aldjuguborg(sp?).


Finnish Tribes

Korpisoturit
Heimosoturit
Armored Spearmen (Feel like giving them these, the description of "Heimosoturit" did not make me feel they would be capable of taking on the heaviest cavalry. And Gardariki has got some cavalry...)
Keihäsmiehet
Footmen
Karelian Kylfings
Karelian Raiders
Karelian Horsemen
Finnish Berserkers
Finnish Nobles
Kuninkaan Henkivartio

Boats:

Small boat
Uisko

Quote:

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Alright, a list, so far, potentially for what I'd use for British isles mercs:

Gael Gaedhil Buanna; All of Ireland and Scotland

Gallowglass (assuming you wish to use them); Connacht, Ulster, Dublin, the Highlands, the Grampians

Gorddgwas; Dublin, all of Britain south of Scotland, edit: and possibly the north of France, maybe just Brittany, it seems a few fought in Brittany, as a Welsh prince has a record of recieving payment for, essentially, renting out his own mercenary Gorddgwas for something I can't quite determine, in Brittany. His records don't say why they were there, and the record is in somewhat poor condition, including, damnably, the year, so I can't determine what was going on in Brittany at the time.

Manx Fer Cliwe; York, Wales, Cornwall, Dublin, Ulster, Lowlands

Mercenary Welsh Archers (whatever name you might wish, the one suggested earlier, Saighdearbuanna, is of Irish origin); All of Britain and Ireland

Mercenary Vikings (Possibly two or three units, as the Irish and Scots, particularly, employed various mercenaries, axemen, swordsmen, and spearmen); all of Britain and Ireland

Leinstermen; Dublin and York, a light armored poleax infantry unit that would become the standard for Irish armies in later periods. Possibly make a localized unit to Dublin, or a unit for the Dublin-York faction.

Edit 2, Rebels:
As for rebels, I think 'indigenous' units should be used in their particular areas, if possible, such as Gaelic peasants in Ireland and Scotland, along with maybe a few actual soldier type units, like Celtic Swordsmen. This would give the sense of the minor kingdoms that were present, but lacked the cohesiveness to have the more professional and advanced soldiers, but also keeps the rebels proper to the area. Is this possible?

---

Thank you. About the Leinstermen, I do not think it is possible to have localized units for construction, like in MTW. I was actually thinking about having cheaper mercenaries, agree? Mercenary Vikings should pherhaps be slightly better than Viking Axemen, but not of same quality as Huskarls or Varangians. I don't know the amount of units already available to the different civs, so I don't know how many mercenaries we can actually include.

I was thinking about some basic info on each unit, starting with Scandinavian kingdoms:

Quote:

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Trell Knifemen
Weapon: Knife
Armor: None
Shield: None
Helmet: None
Morale: Very Poor
Abilities: None

Trell Spearmen
Weapon: Short Spear
Armor: None
Shield: None
Helmet: None
Morale: Very Poor
Abilities: None

Leidang Spearmen
Weapon: Long Spear
Armor: Light chain mail
Shield: Medium round shield
Helmet: Leather
Morale: Good
Abilities: Warcry

Light Archers
Weapon: Bow + Knife
Armor: None
Shield: None
Helmet: None
Morale: Poor
Abilities: Flaming arrows

Leidang Archers
Weapon: Bow + Knife
Armor: Light (fur/leather)
Shield: None
Helmet: None
Morale: Average
Abilities: Flaming arrows

Huskarl Arhcers
Weapon: Bow + Sword
Armor: Light chain mail
Shield: None
Helmet: Leather
Morale: Good
Abilities: Flaming arrows

Viking Axemen
Weapon: One handed axe + Throwing spear
Armor: Light (fur/leather)
Shield: Medium round shield
Helmet: Leather
Morale: Good
Abilities: Warcry and Svinefylking (wedge)

Berserkers
Weapon: One handed axe
Armor: None (half-naked)
Shield: Medium round shield
Helmet: None
Morale: Excellent
Abilities: Berserkergang

Ulfhedin Berserkers (special Nordic)
Weapon: One handed sword
Armor: Light (much fur)
Shield: Medium round shield
Morale: Fearless (can't be routed)
Helmet: None
Abilities: Berserkergang

Huskarl Swordsmen
Weapon: One handed sword + Throwing spear
Armor: Heavy chain mail
Shield: Large round shield (iron edge)
Helmet: Gjermundbu
Morale: Excellent
Abilities: Warcry and Svinefylking (wedge)

Huskarl Axemen (best in loose formation)
Weapon: Bearded axe
Armor: Heavy chain mail
Shield: None
Helmet: Gjermundbu
Morale: Excellent
Abilities: Warcry and Svinefylking

Hirdmen (Royal Guard)
Weapon: One handed sword
Armor: Heavy chain mail
Shield: None
Helmet: Gjermundbu (general/king himself has it in gold)
Morale: Fearless
Abilities: Warcry, Svinefylking and Shield Wall (protects the general/king)

Horse Raiders (Mounted)
Weapon: Long Spear
Armor: Light chain mail
Shield: Medium round shield
Helmet: Gjermundbu
Morale: Good
Abilities: Wedge

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Localized units are possible, it's done in the current Rome: Total Realism build, and is present in Vanilla R:TW with the Spartans and elephant units. A 'hidden' resource is present in a province (such as Spartans, for the Spartans), and in the building file, under buildings that can train units, look for Spartans, and see the additional line that comes after their entry, requiring the resource. However, Leinsterman tended to fight in a mercenary faction (whoever paid them some tribute, they'd often fight for them), so they may be a viable mercenary. I only wish them to be included, as they were important at Clontarf, and Brian's campaign against the vikings in Dublin.

I agree with the rest, one viking merc would be fine, simply suggesting the possibility of others. And cheaper mercs sounds good to me.

Quote:

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Localized units are possible, it's done in the current Rome: Total Realism build, and is present in Vanilla R:TW with the Spartans and elephant units.

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That opens up new doors...

Jomsvikings could now be localized units as well as mercenaries, nice. Actually I have never gotten around to produce Spartans though I have held Sparta at many times. Useful information.

By the way Ranika, your signature; when was that said?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by King Yngvar

Hmm, you speak about tribes, getting me a little confused. But I assume you mean provinces? I am not planning on having 5 Finnish factions, that would be too much. I think the name of the faction "Finnish Tribes" is ok for now, any other suggestion? A province could be added in Finland, some provinces could be fixed on as well.

Could we use those unit names? If so, thanks alot ~:)

---

Ah, so you meant that "Finnish tribes" would be one faction, like the gauls and the germanics are in RTW. Ok, sure (not too accurate but at least its something). Yes, you can use the unit names, by all means. If you need names for generals, I would be happy to send you a list of names.

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Ingermanland will probably be the province name here, as I am very certain that it was held by Gardariki at the time this mod will start. It was held by Finns between 838 and 862, but from then on held by Gardariki (Kijevan Rus) and whoever held Holmgard/Novgorod later on. The city name will be Aldjuguborg(sp?).

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I didn't mean Novgorod, I meant Staraya Ladoga, or Laatokankaupunki as it is known in Finnish.

https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v...od911idea2.bmp

It is the most Northern Rus/blue province on the map, containing half of Lake Ladoga in it. It was in the hand of the Ingrians until 1105, when it was taken by Novgorod.

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In one of the Novgorodian tax documents dating back to 1137, there is no mention of the Karelian or Ingrian villages north and west of Lake Ladoga. Laatokankaupunki (staraya ladoga) had been subdued in 1105.

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-a translated excerpt from a book called Itärajan Vartijat - Keskiaika by Lena Huldén.

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Ah, so you meant that "Finnish tribes" would be one faction, like the gauls and the germanics are in RTW. Ok, sure (not too accurate but at least its something). Yes, you can use the unit names, by all means. If you need names for generals, I would be happy to send you a list of names.

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The more factions, the more work. We already have 25 of them. Plus, it would make those one-province Finnish tribes very weak if they were divided.
My email is yngvarv@hotmail.com, if you would like to send me generals.

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I didn't mean Novgorod, I meant Staraya Ladoga, or Laatokankaupunki as it is known in Finnish.

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I was also talking about Staraja Ladoga, or Aldeigjuborg as it is called in Old Norse.

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Scandinavians took control over Staraya Ladoga in the 750's. They called the town Aldeigjuborg

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- From a "history of Norway" book. The same book also show a map where the Rus holds control of that area. It was pherhaps the third most important town in Gardariki.

Signature was of an indetermined date, it's a rather poor translation, and the document it was in was written with a number of early and old Irish words. Donall lived somewhere between 650-750, so it was said somewhere in that span. Donall's unknown except for a couple of papers on the concepts of emotion being 'trained' to utilize it, and his name appears in a few name rolls at Saint Tybalt's Abbey.

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Originally Posted by King Yngvar

I was also talking about Staraja Ladoga, or Aldeigjuborg as it is called in Old Norse.

- From a "history of Norway" book. The same book also show a map where the Rus holds control of that area. It was pherhaps the third most important town in Gardariki.

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Hmm. What is the starting date for this mod? I guess this is a debatable issue, but I'm guessing Staraya Ladoga was back in the hands of the Ingrians by the end of the Viking Age, my mistake. The book I was quoting only deals with medieval times, so it does not mention the former owners. I'm sending the namelist now.
~:cheers:

EDIT: Scandinavians ruled over SL, but the inhabitants were mainly Finns/Ingrians/Karelians. I suppose they, like most vikings, assimilated to the local cultures with time. That would explain why it was an Ingrian town in 1105.

cool work guys!

but, isnt there a faction limit? (heard 15)

The faction limit is around 30.

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Hmm. What is the starting date for this mod? I guess this is a debatable issue, but I'm guessing Staraya Ladoga was back in the hands of the Ingrians by the end of the Viking Age, my mistake. The book I was quoting only deals with medieval times, so it does not mention the former owners. I'm sending the namelist now.


EDIT: Scandinavians ruled over SL, but the inhabitants were mainly Finns/Ingrians/Karelians. I suppose they, like most vikings, assimilated to the local cultures with time. That would explain why it was an Ingrian town in 1105.

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911 is the starting date. The Ingrians probably controlled the area in 1105, but Kijev Rus was divided in the mid 1000's. There was no longer a united "Russia" by 1105, and the aristocracy had forgotten their Nordic blood.

In 911, the elite warriors and the aristocracy spoke Old Norse, "Russia" was united and strong. This was the high period of Kijevan Rus.

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Signature was of an indetermined date, it's a rather poor translation, and the document it was in was written with a number of early and old Irish words. Donall lived somewhere between 650-750, so it was said somewhere in that span. Donall's unknown except for a couple of papers on the concepts of emotion being 'trained' to utilize it, and his name appears in a few name rolls at Saint Tybalt's Abbey.

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I just tought it was some fine words of wisdom.

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The faction limit is around 30.

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Good, then we'll be alright.

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cool work guys!

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Thank you ~:) Though the work has barely begun...

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Originally Posted by King Yngvar

I just tought it was some fine words of wisdom.

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It is too often mistaken that aesthetic martial arts (or martial arts all together, for that matter) are purely Eastern. To the contrary, near every place has produced many martial arts (fighting with a longsword, after all, isn't simply hacking away at your opponent, there is a science to it). Raighhangh is a philosophy and a way of life, coupled with intensive martial arts training. The Raighhangh berserkers took it all very seriously. The idea was simple. Donall explained it very well:

"Emotion will keep a man fighting long after he should be dead. Hate for one's enemies, and love of his people and home, will push him to fight until his body simply collapses. His greatest strength is not his sword or his arm, it is his heart, and the love and hate there in, and his fearlessness, because he knows the truth. Pain and suffering are temporary, and death does not come for the man who's body falls for the glory of his people. There is no fear or blindness. Only clarity of the greatest truths."

Raighhangh were martial artist-berserker-religious fanatics. It's a pity so little is known about them, aside from their philosophy (which is still taught in some places, I, myself, will be opening a school soon to teach Raighhangh philosophy and Irish martial arts with it).


Back on topic, the Ridire, on foot, would utilize a two-handed sword, a spear from horseback. Says infantry with them, so assuming you wanna go that route. They used large, two-handed swords (almost all of them imports of the Irish lewing sword, or copies, even in Wales, which, aside from a few similarities, was disassociated militarily from the Irish). The lewing sword can smash through armor, it's of great weight, with a rounded tip (it's too long to thrust with). It is swung in wide, horizontal strokes, aimed at necks, generally (a master with it could supposedly take off as many as ten heads in a single great swing). Ridire would be dressed in very fine chain armor, wear plaid cloaks, iron helmets, tall leather boots, and plaid trews (loose pants), with chain leggings. They would actually look pretty similar to the 'Gallowglass' picture in the description of them in Medieval: TW, and Viking Invasion. Gallowglass would look pretty similar, but would carry a Sparth, and cloak would probably be a solid color. Too bad the AI can't be editted heavily, it'd be nice to see the different armies battle in their proper fashion, like Irish armies, which would fight 'heavy' armies, by organizing a cavalry screen, flanked by bonnaghts or kerns, who would rush in, pelt the enemy with their missiles, and withdraw while the cavalry closes to deal a first strike, then withdraws quickly, with medium-to-heavy infantry behind them to break the front line, and then another missile attack. It's too often assumed, and simulated, that large scale battles were just two hordes hurling themselves at eachother in a rather blind fashion.

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Back on topic, the Ridire, on foot, would utilize a two-handed sword, a spear from horseback. Says infantry with them, so assuming you wanna go that route.

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I'm going for infantry royal guards. A true king fights on foot, well at least in Northern Europe they did. Believed the Irish kings did so as well, at least most of them.

Britain, Scandinavia (+Finland), Gardariki (Rus), Vendland, Asturia and Normandy (before reforms) will have kings fighting on foot.

About the scottish units:
Claymores did not exist until the early renaissance when large swords were neccesary to knock over heavily armoured oppenents or to make headway through pikelines...therefore claymore infantry would not have existed in the time of the vikings...also remember that the kilt did not exist till the 1700's ... Braveheart is not a documentary, it was an extremely historically flawed excuse to make money. I mean, mel gibson didnt even grow the beard the Wallace had, and Wallace in real life was a complete pig...do the research about the claymore and the kilt if you want.

Also..Huscarl archers? Archers were frowned upon in the time of the vikings and therefore were hardly considered soldiers...I seriously doubt if any self respecting huscarl would carry a bow in battle. Also be careful as to what you mean by huscarle...as if you are using the definition I believe you are then they would be restricted to the Saxons...and the Byzantine Varangian guard, historians believe, inspired the creation of the huscarles, and they based their organization off of the Vargangians...at the very least they are equals.

Also...there was no german kingdom, just alot of divided people...conquered by the franks under various kings, and under charlemagne they also owned italy, all of france and germany, and bits of spain as well as parts of hungary and poland.

Remember that vikings did not have horned helmets.

Also remember that sword fighting was not slow and clumsy as hollywood shows...sword were well balanced and rarely weighed over 3 pounds. Viking swords on the other hand were not as well made which is why they often bought swords from other countries.

Anyways...dont mean to anger or offend anyone...just to help keep this historically accurate if thats what you want, if not...ignore my post. ~:cheers: