Who Wants A Tournament?

Hello ,

Ive decided to start holding some shogun Total war Tourniments.
Its a prety Simple lay Out really,

I hope to get 8 players,
Then devide them in to four groups of 2
Who will the nplay 2 matches 1 attacking and 1 defending,
With a third Being played as a decider.
Any server can be used,
All participants Must have Log files enabled.
And each battle log file will be E-mailed to The Adress below.

The winner will proceed through to the next round where The same process will happen, Vs the winner from the Next block,

Then we will be left with 2 people who will follow the same rulles,

Hopefully we can do this On a some what regular basis,

if you want to Join Email me,
at
shogun_tourniment@hotmail.com
shogun_tourniment@hotmail.com

And you may want to make a Unique Picture for the Tourniment board.
have a look at it so you can get the dimentions of a picture right,
www.shoguntw.2ya.com

(i will make a few my self that people can choose between)
Please feel free to Post your intrest or questions In here,

Thanx for your time.

ShambleS
:bow:

What will the koku per player be for each battle?

What map(s) will be used for the first two battles, and the tie-breaker if necessary? Will the same maps be used by all players, for each match on a tier? Will different maps be used for different tiers?

What stat will be used?

Will there be any limitations (e.g. 4 max of a unit type, no ashigaru, etc.)?

How big will unit sizes be?

Will morale on, fatigue on, limited ammo, and restricted camera be required?

i want to join the tournament because although my mtw is not working I am sure my stw will work. Though does anyone know why I can never get connected to a stw server for mp?

I will examine the terrains tonight (after i sleep) as they should get progressivley harder For the attacker. and will name them tomorrow,
I think 10k koku should be fine with max of 4 units of same type to be chosen,
And prehaps Only 1 unit of asgaru or ninja guys allowed.

Moral fatigue limited camera and limited ammo will all be in effect,
V1.02b stats should be used,

And we could Use a even terrain ,
We can iron out the details,

The winged victory,

You may need to configure your self for online play,
Tosa has a server and so do i,
I have a program on my web page that allows you to Chose which 1 to use if your not very technical,
Or you can Edit your Internet.cfg file.
There are Details of what to do In STW MP thread

here is a link to the server thingy.
http://shoguntw.2ya.com/ShamblesTW.exe

p.s

Eventhough i prefer playing with 120 men in a unit,
I beleve 60 should be the limit,
this should help Both time and lower end pc users.

If the first two games are played on the same map, with both players having to attack and defend on it, then I think the maps used could be of a wide variety. The tiebreaker should be played on the fairest map possible however. In the tournaments I've seen, tiebreakers are played on the Ironing Board (IB, which is completely flat). Maybe a small set of maps could be identified, and the players allowed to choose (consesus required) for the first two battles. Or, you could assign different maps to the different tiers.

My opinion: if 1.02 is used, the 4 max rule and no ashi rules should be used. Armies made up solely of Superashi and musks will dominate otherwise and, imo, ruin the gameplay. Ninja and Kensai are costly and not particularly effective (they don't really unbalance the battles), so I don't think you need to limit them, other than the 4 max rule.

The problem with ashigaru: they are very cheap, and cheap to upgrade. An H9w3a3 ashi kicks serious butt on any other unit in a 10K army, and they shouldn't (unrealistic, etc.). Even one Superashi would be a problem, I think.

Again my opinion: good standard maps for 1v1 are IB, Totomi, Azukizaka, Nagashima, and 4th Kawanakajima (as long as both have to attack one game; 4th is slanted in favor of defense for 1v1 because of the small central hill on the defense side). Yamato is a very odd map, and fun to play because the "normal" army compositions don't work that well there. There are some nice maps in the mappacks, but many do not have them and it would add a requirement to competing that might cause complications, possibly whittling away at an already small pool of interested players.

Things to consider. Based on prior experiences, I think it would be wise to have a concrete structure and set of rules before proceeding.

I'm glad you'll go for the 60-man unit. Technical performance aside, I think it allows for a lot more manuevering, which makes for more interesting battles and tactics.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TogakureOjonin

If the first two games are played on the same map, with both players having to attack and defend on it, then I think the maps used could be of a wide variety. The tiebreaker should be played on the fairest map possible however. In the tournaments I've seen, tiebreakers are played on the Ironing Board (IB, which is completely flat). Maybe a small set of maps could be identified, and the players allowed to choose (consesus required) for the first two battles. Or, you could assign different maps to the different tiers.

My opinion: if 1.02 is used, the 4 max rule and no ashi rules should be used. Armies made up solely of Superashi and musks will dominate otherwise and, imo, ruin the gameplay. Ninja and Kensai are costly and not particularly effective (they don't really unbalance the battles), so I don't think you need to limit them, other than the 4 max rule.

The problem with ashigaru: they are very cheap, and cheap to upgrade. An H9w3a3 ashi kicks serious butt on any other unit in a 10K army, and they shouldn't (unrealistic, etc.). Even one Superashi would be a problem, I think.

Again my opinion: good standard maps for 1v1 are IB, Totomi, Azukizaka, Nagashima, and 4th Kawanakajima (as long as both have to attack one game; 4th is slanted in favor of defense for 1v1 because of the small central hill on the defense side). Yamato is a very odd map, and fun to play because the "normal" army compositions don't work that well there. There are some nice maps in the mappacks, but many do not have them and it would add a requirement to competing that might cause complications, possibly whittling away at an already small pool of interested players.

Things to consider. Based on prior experiences, I think it would be wise to have a concrete structure and set of rules before proceeding.

---

The tie breaker board was alredy going to be the ironing board
"for all tie breakers"

Whats a superashi?
Yari ashigaru?
They are no more dangerous than musketeers. and die quite redily under fire.
I do not see the problem with them,
(unless of course you want to dominate using cav.)
"but i have been using v1.0 for a while"
So i will throw This one to the forum,

Who els thinks that the ashi's should not be used,
Please Post

Im going to look at some terrains in a min,
Just need to make a coffe 1st,

So il be back soon

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TogakureOjonin

I'm glad you'll go for the 60-man unit. Technical performance aside, I think it allows for a lot more manuevering, which makes for more interesting battles and tactics.

---

I have no difficultys manoovering 120 man units (its what im used to)
Its just technical side and the time span of the battles that had me worried.

Ok i think terrains could be

Easiest (the 1st) Bizen
Modorate (second) Awa "this can be debatable"
Hardest (the finals) Awaji

All tie breakers played on The Ironing board,

And weather is the attackers Choice,
(becous its a tactical decision I will not remove it)

Now Please post about These Terrains
I dont think Il change Awaji
but I may change the others upon request,

Id like feed back on the "super ashi" subject,

And all entrants Should send me a email ,
A small Unique sig Like picture Soould be made, To be added to the tourniment board,
Haing your Game/forum name in the Picture woul be a good Idea,
Emailing me these pictures would be Nice,

I will go and try to make some unique pics for those who Would rather chose than make 1,

So,
To recap,

Super ashi.... Need feed back.

Terrains, Awaji Will stay You can debate other 2

And emails to be sent to
shogun_tourniment@hotmail.com

Thats... Shogun_Tourniment

Please debate points Here.

Please do not email me with Map requests,
And instead Debate their choice here,

Thank you

ShambleS
:bow:

Probably the best way to illustrate the Ashi problem is to fight a battle against them. I however, have never used a Superashi army, so I wouldn't be the best person to do this. Maybe there is someone here from the old days that knows a 10K 1.02 superashi army and can demonstrate? I can try, but I may not be able to effectively drive the point home.

If someone knowledgeable about this is out there reading this, if you cannot take the time to demonstrate, maybe they could list the makeup of a Superashi army which I could then use to try and demonstrate why they tend to unbalance battles?

Moving large units around the map isn't what I meant m8. Of course that can be done effectively. With smaller units, there is more space on the map, which allows for more flanking and manuevering etc. That was my point.

I'm somewhat familiar with Bizen for MP, but not the other maps you've listed, as they were not used often by players on the official server back in the day. I'll have a look at them and share my opinion later.

Hey Shambles,

I've sent in my tournament application but on re-reading Shambles message it occurs to me I sent it to Shoguntourniment rather than shogun_tourniment :embarassed: .

Have you received it or should I resend?

Could every 1 interested please Visit
http://shoguntw.2ya.com
And look in the tourniment section please

Ive added some back grounds,
for images for the Tourniment board.

RabidGibbon Could you also check out the site as it has some details you may want.
And btw i did not recve any email sorry,
But that could be my fault as i neglected to finish setting up My hotmail account,
(its done now though)

Thank you for your Intrest.

ShambleS
:bow:

P.S

Super ashi will be Left out of the tourniment.

:bow:

By the way,
Ive decided entrants will be Given there initial Placing
in accordance with when they joined the tourniment.

I.e 1st person who joins gets 1st space in the 1st block
second person gets 1st space in second Block
and so on,

Any objections and I will gladly rethink the matter,
And use some sort of Random factor, like picking straws :P
Or pick a name out of a hat,

so far 50% of the needed players have expressed an Intrest
and theres still more spaces,

Please Join And we can then Iron out The time's of play,

thanks
ShambleS
:bow:

Here's an idea to consider:

RabidGibbon and I had some more games tonight. In a couple of them, we chose not to use muskets in favor of archers. Though the battles turned out to be ferocious melees because of the starting positions we chose, not having muskets in the mix would change the ranged war aspect of a battle drastically and make for an interesting contrast. Perhaps allowing muskets in some tiers, but not in others?

Man, that huge ridge in the back of the Awaji map is a tremendous challenge for the attacker (a big height advantage plus fatigue, having to march across or around and up while also running the risk of ranged fire from above). Still, I guess if each competitor has to both attack and defend there it should be ok. The challenge would be for an attacker to overcome the significant disadvantage in order to take both the attacking and defending games.

Bizen is nice. Despite the valley in the middle, there are good options open to the attacker, no matter where the defender chooses to set up.

Forgot what the other map was when we were in the foyer. We'll give it a test run tomorrow mostly likely.

Is there any way to get the on-battlefield chat working? It sure is a bummer that we can't communicate on the field. This would be especially true in 2v2 or 3v3 battles (which I'm hoping we can have soon! I've e-mailed my wingm8 Anskar so hopefully he'll bring his purple banner and cheery demeanor, and join us soon).

Glad to hear of more people joining :)
Could turn out to be good fun :)
I see me going out 1st round personally lol

as for game chat.
You can use roger wilco as a voice chat i spose, (allows multiple user chat)
But i dont know why battle chat dosent work.

If it works in Tosa's server Then you can easily play there.
Il just need a log file from both competitors.

And toga... Have you chosen a pic or made 1 for the torney board?
Id like to put you in your slot,
(theres more detail of this in the tourniment section of my site)
Also TheWingedVictory...
Could you let me know if you will be involved in this tourniment
thnx,

ShambleS
:bow:

For those interested, I conducted a little test using single units:

Warrior Monk H4, at a cost of 1078 koku, vs.
Yari Ashigaru, H8w3a2, at a cost of 1083 koku.

Weather was a fine day, map was IB, fatigue, morale on etc. I marched to the center of the map to meet the attacking WM so as to incure similar fatigue.

The WMs fought to the last man. I simply attacked (I don't think I allowed much space or time to get much of a charge bonus), and even with the -2 morale penalty inflicted by the monks and charge bonus, the end result was victory for the Yari Ashigaru, having 26 men left.

With the added spear bonus against cav, the SuperYA shreds any cav unit of similar cost with ease and negligible losses.

1000+ for a single unit is high for a 10,000 koku game, but I think the point is clear: if you inexpensively upgrade the inexpensive YA unit, it quickly exceeds the role intended for it and becomes "super," unbalancing an already borderline Rock, Paper, Scissors arrangement in 1.02 (muskets being another culprit, but one that is checked to most players' satisfaction by the 4 max rule).

***

EDIT: Ran another 1 unit vs. 1 unit test, this time between:

YA H7w3a2 costing 848 koku, vs.
No Dachi H5w1 costing 943 koku

The H5w1 is probably the most common variant used for NDs that I've seen in STW/WE/MI MP.

Same setup as before, flat, fine day, realism on. The No Dachi lost, having 1 man left, which fled. The YA had 15 men left.

These costs are more in line with what you'll typically spend on average for infantry units. Again, the souped-up YA wins in a situation where it really shouldn't when considering the YA role in a medieval Japanese army.

EDIT2:

YA: H7w2a2, costing 790
WM: H3, costing 770 (note the big diff. in cost between H3 and H4 monks)

Same controls in place. WMs fought to the last man; YA won with 33 men left.

Shambles m8, I confess I have some issues with participating unless you are unable to get enough players. First off, I tend to shy away from formal competitions. Second, I feel silly competing because so many players are fairly new to Shogun MP, and I would have an unfair advantage given that I've played a bit of MP for a while now. If you end up with 7 peeps, of course I'll play to enable the tourney to proceed. But I think it might be better for me to wait until the next tourney or two in order to allow for the new players to get some games in and get warmed up. I don't want to give anyone the impression that I'm the "bully" or "big fish in a little pond" type (I can't stand folks like that, personally). I would certainly like to observe some of the tourney battles though! ~:)

Part of being a successful MP taisho lies in being clever on the battlefield. Part lies in developing good control techniques (how to use the game's controls quickly and effectively in the heat of battle). But a big part of succeeding lies in what units you select for your army, and the honor levels and upgrades applied to them. This depends a lot on what stat is in use, but as this tournament will be using 1.02, I thought it might be helpful to share my observations about units for folks who might be new to STW MP.

Here's a general breakdown of units and honor/upgrades that I've commonly seen over the last year and a half or so, playing 1.02 online:

Naginata Cavalry: H3-H4 (4 being most common; don't see a lot of wep or armor upgrades). Easily the most popular of the assault cav types because of its balanced speed and high base morale.

Heavy Cavalry: H3-H4 (3 being most common; don't see a lot of wep or armor upgrades). Slower and less manueverable in a pinch, they have better defense and armor than the other cav types.

Yari Cavalry: H3-H4 (4 being the most common; don't see a lot of wep or armor upgrades). Fastest, best against other cav types, but lower base morale. Not used nearly as much as Nag cav, but often used well by cav-savvy players as anti-cav units (they get the spear bonus inherent in Yari).

Cav Archers: H0-H1 (0 being the most common; don't see a lot of wep or armor upgrades). Primarily used for harrassing flanks and chasing down routers. High cost precludes upgrading them as it doesn't yield a commensurate gain in (melee) performance. Ranged performance improves only marginally with honor increase. can be used to lower opponent morale by circling to flank or rear after the main line engages.

Yari Ashigaru: not usually allowed because of the "Super" ashi probem described earlier.

Muskets: H1-H3 (2 being the most common). Sometimes an armor upgrade (of 1) is used. Honor beyond H4 doesn't seem to affect musket ranged effectiveness very much. Those who emphasize the ranged war often bring H3 or even H3A1. I don't like spending that much on musks, but that's just me.

Arquebusiers: rarely used because they become useless in rain, unlike muskets (which are significantly less effective, but still fire and inflict a morale penalty on targets).

Samurai Archers: H0-H1. Though they will often outshoot musketeers in the early stages of a ranged exchange, they eventually run out of ammo (while musketeers very rarely do). They melee much better than musketeers, but not when up against most other troop types. Again, ranged ability is not significantly improved with honor upgrades beyond H1, so koku is usually better spent elsewhere.

Yari Samurai: H5-H6 (6 being the most common; often see wep and armor upgrades). A staple in any army for their anti-cav capability. Higher honor is needed because of their low base morale (lower than 5 and they tend to run before doing their duty). Probably the widest variation in commonly used combinations (h5w2, h5w1a1, h6, h6w1, h6w1a1). I even use H7a1 or H7w1 in a very unusual army from time to time (these cost a fortune, so they aren't usually practical).

Warrior Monks: H3-H4 (3 being most common; H4 is expensive; don't often see wep/armor upgrades because of high cost). Monks seem underpowered in 1.02 given their cost. Most players Ive seen use higher honor No Dachi with weapon upgrades instead. Note: monks have been improved and are more commonly used with the 1.03 and 1.05 stats.

No Dachi: H4-H6 (5 being the most common; often see weapon upgrades). No Dachi are the shock troop of choice for most. H5, H5W1, and H5W2 are very common. H4 are used by some, working well as flanking units after the main line has engaged. H6 are expensive so are not seen that often, but I've seen some players use them.

Naginata: H3-H4 (4 being the most common; occasionally see weapon upgrades if H3 is chosen). Naginata infantry are slow, and their base morale is low. Their defense is good, and thus a few players will use them when intending to remain relatively stationary and grouped together, particularly if they are on high ground. Note: the Naginata infantry unit's base morale is doubled in the 1.03 stat, making them much better. They aren't used that often in 1.02.

Kensai: H0-H1 (don't often see upgrades because of high cost, maybe an armor upgrade if being used as a gen; Kensai have great stats anyway so ...). I've seen many veteran players scoff at the Kensai unit, but I've also seen many vets use them as a general to good effect. Some wily coyotes will attempt to hide them amidst their No Dachi units (they are red like the No Dachi). At H0-H1 starting honor, it's not unusual to see them gain 1-3 honor points during the battle, because they kill so rapidly. Kensai do get shot by guns rather easily if targeted.

Battlefield Ninja: rarely used. They can be seen moving, and despite their superior combat ability, that they only have 12 men in a unit usually spells their doom once they're detected. Occasionally used on maps with a large percentage of forested area.

***

Generals: this is a matter of style really. I would say the the majority bring Nag Cav gens in 1.02. You'll see Heavy Cav gens too. Some bring Yari Samurai gens because it's hard to kill them with cavalry. On rare occasions you'll see a monk or no dachi general, but I love to shoot these ... . Kensai gens are occasionally used. Using musketeers or archers or cav archers as generals doesn't make a lot of sense because the last thing you want is for your general to flee when the going gets rough, and these units have low base morale. Because they are so slow and have low base morale, Naginata infantry are usually used as gens only when defending and fairly stationary (they tire rapidly due to their heavy armor when moving a lot).

***

What combination of units to use really depends on the map, whether your attacking or defending, and your style. The majority tend to bring balanced armies with at least 4 foot ranged units (muskets in 1.02). With infantry, the ratio between Yari Samurai and shock troops (monks and no dachi) varies greatly from player to player. Usually most bring at least 2 Yari Samurai as anti-cav units, unless they are intending to rush. If rushing, they often use Yari Cav instead. Nag Cav are by far the most popular assault cavalry, but you will see Heavy Cav and Yari Cav too. Cav archers seem popular, but are often poorly used. Usually you will see up to two units in an army. Some don't bring any, and bring a couple of archer units to complement their 4 musketeers instead (a powerful ranged war setup). On rare occasions you'll find players that bring 3 or more cav archer units. Those that are good with cav archers can wreak havoc on an opponent lacking the right counters ... .

Cav dominant or all-cav armies are usually only used by those new to MP. It's rather easy to counter them if you're careful. I've only encountered a couple of people that could control all-cav armies well and win with them with any consistency. If a map is fairly flat and lacks tree cover (IB, Totomi), then having more cav than usual can work well. Overall however, balanced armies, fine-tuned to a map, do best in my experience.

***

All that being said, experiment and discover what works for you. I just share this information because sometimes it's frustrating when you're new and keep getting defeated time and time again. Knowing the general ranges of honor and upgrades for the troop types can help a lot in designing effective armies, which is the first step to succeeding as an MP taisho.

Sound great to me, but I don't know if I stand a single chance against guys like Toga. The reinstallation of my internet at home is slowed down AGAIN, it'll come next week at monday, would that be too late?

Hi Rabidgibbon, welcome to the .org, i see you're still a junior member while you're active for a while, if you'd like to become full member soon, you can try introducing yourself to KukriKhan in the thread: 'Hail New Members (introductions)', which is in the entrance hall. ~:)

Welcome TheWingedVictory! I wish you a nice stay at the .org, for the tech. part, you should ask someone else, I'm a tech. disaster. :embarassed:

Drisos m8, do your best to get your STW problem fixed--there are a lot of techies around who love to help people, not just here but elsewhere on the 'net and in your area where you live.

When you do, come and drill with me/us. My guess is, you are better than you think you are. I drilled with other friends last year; at first they could not beat me very often. After a couple of months, I could not beat THEM very often!! And it made me glad, honestly, because it was like the students becoming better than the teacher. I love that.

I think Shambles intends to hold tourneys a lot, so if you don't get your STW working before this one starts, there's always the next one.

Apply your energy and motivation m8, don't let that machine beat you! You are smarter than it is, and you have a lot more resources at your disposal. Good luck, hurry up and get your butt in the STW foyer! ~:)

Fellow Taishos,

I thought it might be nice to look at some Armies I have encountered online:
http://img242.echo.cx/img242/6914/unbenannt13wr.jpg

http://img242.echo.cx/img242/6164/unbenannt7hs.jpg

10.000 Koku is the usual limit.
1.03 stats were used.
:bow:

R'as

Interesting indeed ~:). These demonstrate the wide variety in ratio between ysams and shock troops between players. I am very surprised to see h3 ysams. Perhaps the player was using them strictly to protect flanks against cav? h7w1 No Dachi!!! Sheesh! First time I've ever seen those used. That last army is an interesting one ... very interesting. Reminds me a little of one of Wolf Kansuke's tournament armies, except this one emphasizes strong ysams instead of a balance between both strong ysams and strong ND for infantry. Might have to play with that one a bit. The first one reminds me of an AggonyBetou army, though his armies are quite varied. I seem to remember being rushed by him with an army like this one.

I'm surprised given that 1.03 was used, that Nag Inf and Monks weren't used more. They are so much better in 1.03 than 1.02. Interesting too, that 4 musks are still used despite it being 1.03. Old habits die hard I guess.

These are quite different from the 1.03 armies I saw in Kas' tourney. But his tourney had a 7000 koku limit, so that must be why. If I remember correctly Puzz3D wrote that 1.03 was designed to be best-balanced at 7-8K. But whatever the players like, I say. I like 10K for 1.02, 8K for 1.03, and 9-10K for Mongol 1.05 battles.

Toga,

now that you say it, I'm not sure anymore if we used 1.03.
The games were either played friendly or in the 7Bear7-Tournament.
Players included Shingaijin, Kansuke, Heavysword, Mimesaka and some Aggonys.
The monk army was Kansukes if irc.
Perhaps someone sees this and could clarify.
If our moderator (Mimesaka aka Sasaki) shows up, he could probably tell.
:bow:
R'as

P.S.: I was instructed by the guys to not use Naginata at all.
~D It went something like this:
"Itto, you're new, mind if i tell you what to buy?"
"Sure, go ahead"
Then followed a long list of cryptic (to me at the time) combinations of "H", numbers and abbreviations for the units. :dizzy2: But I got used to it quite fast.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by R'as al Ghul

... P.S.: I was instructed by the guys to not use Naginata at all.
~D It went something like this:
"Itto, you're new, mind if i tell you what to bye?"
"Sure, go ahead"
Then followed a long list of cryptic (to me at the time) combinations of "H", numbers and abbreviations for the units. :dizzy2: But I got used to it quite fast.

---

ROFLMAO! Brings back memories of the private conversations I had with the guys back in the day. Kans would coach me a lot, and I appreciated it because he is a great player. Betou also. He was actually my first trainer, and thanks to him my days as a hapless greenie were shorter than those of most. Now it's my turn to pass on the kindnesses ... . Mimesaka had a different approach to instruction--he just pounded me into the dust again, and again, and again ... GAH!

I am of the school that never uses nag inf also. In my previous post, I tried not to let my personal bias affect my descriptions of what I had observed. Nag inf are just too slow, tire too quickly, and because of their low morale at typical 10K honor levels, will run if even moderately flanked. If you were openly coached not to used them at all however, that would lead me to believe that 1.02 was being used. 1.02 was used for Yogi's Fight Club league.

:bow:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by drisos

Sound great to me, but I don't know if I stand a single chance against guys like Toga. The reinstallation of my internet at home is slowed down AGAIN, it'll come next week at monday, would that be too late?

Hi Rabidgibbon, welcome to the .org, i see you're still a junior member while you're active for a while, if you'd like to become full member soon, you can try introducing yourself to KukriKhan in the thread: 'Hail New Members (introductions)', which is in the entrance hall. ~:)

Welcome TheWingedVictory! I wish you a nice stay at the .org, for the tech. part, you should ask someone else, I'm a tech. disaster. :embarassed:

---

so far there are 5 spaces left 4 if winged victory lets me kow hel be playing.

so There could be some time yet

Im leaving out the super ashi
Cos ppl are telling me about them,
So Interested ppl need to check out the tourniment page on my site,
cos you need a picture , (all is explained there)

So its version 1.02.
No super ashi
2 battles 1 attacking 1 defending,
And then a tie breaker on the ironing board if score is 1 each
60 men in a unit,
and Maximum of 4 units of 1 type.
the 1st 2 terrains are yet to be properly decided,
So oppinions would be nice

and the last 1 will be awaji Becous Its a killer.

http://Shoguntw.2ya.com
or go directly here
http://freespace.virgin.net/shambles...s/bckGrnd.html

Places are starting to fill up now :)

So please come fill up the rest of them
All skill levels are welcome,

Its Just fun :)

And it should help revive The STW multi player Games,

Thank you for your support
ShambleS
:bow:

Maybe we can find enough players for a 16-player-tournament, the forum still got lots of STW players. ~;)

I never played STW MP before, cause when I just thought I was ready for it, the tech. problem started. :embarassed: I could use some help in finding out how to play MP. ~:confused:

:bow: I hope to participate, Toga convinced me! :thumbsup: :bow:

:) Good
Just need to fix your game now :)

the winged victory,
You seemed to have stoped Expressing a interest in the tourniment m8,

Ive sent you a pm, But i dont know how often you come on to the forum,
Send me a email If you want to join the tourniment please,

I see more people posting in the sword dojo latley :)
I hope that some of you will also join the tourniment,

All skill levels are welcome,
Im not all that good so il probably go out 1st round, lol
But its just a bit of fun,

So please feel free to Join,
Dont think of it as "id just be showing off"
Just think of it as "i should let these people play against me"

Thanx again
ShambleS
:bow:

Toga, if I get to playin' STW again before the tounament starts, would you be up for a few MP battles with me?

please...please...please :bow:

Of course m8, I'll play as many as you want ~:). I absolutely love playing (except maybe against Sasaki, lol; he just has me totally psyched out). Just let me know when you're ready and we'll meet and play. I'm in the west USA though so we'll have to work out when. But we will.

Hope to see you soon m8. :bow:

are you back online now drisos?

I would like to join in the tournament. I sent an e-mail message, Shambles.
I have not played STW:WE in a long time. So let me go against an easy player. ~D

i receved your email,
was in my junk mail but i found it,
and have replied

thanx
ShambleS
:bow:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shambles

are you back online now drisos?

---

not yet...and as soon as I do, I still have to get STW running again. :embarassed:

Thanks Toga, I live in holland, that's GMT + 01.00 , I don't know which zone you're in? Mostly, I could be online by 13.45-17.30 and 19.00-21.00, that's in GMT, if you translate your times that you're online into GMT too, we'll see if it works out! ~:)

I'm looking forward to the games!(and just the SP games too, it's been MONTHS ago :dizzy2: )

C y'all later! :bow:

Bumping this thread as we still need some more entries.
:)
Hope to see some names.

Hi.
I'd like to join in the tournament. :bow:

Hi elvis You need to visit the tourniment page of my web site please :)
get a picture for the tourniment board..

Just checked my mail,
And i have added you to the tourniment board :)

There are 2 spaces left now,
One is drisos Hopefully when he gets stw fixed and pc back online,
But winged victory hasnt replied or expressed futher interest,
so there is still room for some 1 els to join.

Heres the board so far,
http://shoguntw.2ya.com/stwstats.htm

Thank you
ShambleS
:bow:

Hi people.
I'd like to join.

P.S.- I didn't know an ashigaru would be a problem in MP. I can easily flank an ashigaru.

I explained the Superashi in detail further up the thread. I ran some simple tests and posted results as well. It should be plain why they unbalance the game. Outflank or no, superashis will shred other units if used with moderate skill. They shouldn't.

The superashi issue was so prevalent and debated during the first few years of Shogun that a general rule eventually emerged where ashi were not normally permitted in 1.02 games. When I came on board in September of 2003, the rule was firmly in place, and people would get cranky if they saw an ashi--even if it wasn't "supered" up.

1 space left,
Drisos..... get fixed :)
and get your self a picture :)

Ok one of our contestants droped out.

Reason:
Other interests mean less time to play Stw.

so that means there are 2 spaces left now,

Also the tourniment board had to be re aranged so, peliminary matches ar now difrent to what they were origionaly going to be,

Could all contestants please confirm They are still willing to play. Please leave messages here :)

And all new entries Please visit my web page's Tourniment section.
Thank you

ShambleS
:bow:

I'm working on it, but no results so far . . .

The picture will be later, OK first priority is STW at the moment.

:) where are my smileys?

Im still raring to go.

STW is working again!!

YES!!!

back online too!!

YES!!!

I want tot join, how can I sign in, Shambles?

Toga, I have all the time in the world from today afternoon til sunday evening, please tell me when and how to start our battles?

I'm so glad shogun has come back to me!

I'm glad to hear it Drisos ~:).

What time zone are you in? I am West USA, but I have a pretty flexible schedule, so I'm sure we can arrange some time. I believe GMT is 8 hours ahead of me (Pacific Standard Time, PST), so PM me and let me know when you'd like to meet, GMT time, and I'll do what I can to hook up with you for some games.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by drisos

Thanks Toga, I live in holland, that's GMT + 01.00 , I don't know which zone you're in? Mostly, I could be online by 13.45-17.30 and 19.00-21.00, that's in GMT, if you translate your times that you're online into GMT too, we'll see if it works out! ~:)

I'm looking forward to the games!(and just the SP games too, it's been MONTHS ago :dizzy2: )

C y'all later! :bow:

---

I posted this a while ago, you probably missed it, never mind. :)

Um, ok lol, that's 5:45am to 9:30am and 11:00am to 1:00pm my time I think. Check you PM Box when you come here during these times. If I am available I'll send you a message and we can meet. My MSN addy is funkymonk002@hotmail.com, so if you have MSN Messenger you can add me as a contact. MSN makes it really easy to check to see if someone's available.

Check your PM tomorrow. If you want some tips and training manuevers we don't have a lot of time before the tournament so we better get started soon.

Glad to hear it drisos. :)
All i need from you is a picture you want to use for tourniment board.
Send it via email please,

email adress on the site :)

OK shambles, I'll do it today!

Shambles, or anyone else, please tell me the e-mail here, I cannot open Shambles's site, my PC starts talking crap about macromedia flash, but when I try installing, it doesn't work, so I don't know the adress yet.

Text keeps disappearing in my sig. hows that possible?? :confused:

Shambles, is your server working?

You dont haft to use flash for my site.
I have flash butons and text links.
so you can just tell it not to install,
But email is

shogun_tourniment@hotmail.com
shogun_tourniment@hotmail.com

Yes cha Sorry but it was sposed to be runing on the back up servere whils i optimized mine, Seems like the back up servere failed to work again.
Its back up now,

Edit
I forgot to click start :(
But its REALLY runing now lol.
03.00 GMT 5/5/05

I met someone named Grey Wolf at MTW and he will join your tournament. I hope he remembered to E-mail you. ~:)

Il be needing every 1 involved to come post times when they can play, So we can organize when each game should take place,

Also please make shure that you have Log battle files enabled Before starting a game,
And that you should send me those log files, after the battles are done,

I will run through the rules again soon

Thank you all for your interest :)

ShambleS
:bow:

I sent the e-mail, have you got it?

just cehecked and yes i did thanx,
Do u want your name writen on the pic or should i use it as it is?
ShambleS
:bow:

I am sending you a new one, with my name on it, just throw away the old one.

Took me some effort(handmade with paint! ~:)), but I think it's a pic. now!

Well....we could have a tournament if Someone didnt drop out not to mention ne names but ........hmmmmmmm

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Just A Girl

Well....we could have a tournament if Someone didnt drop out not to mention ne names but ........hmmmmmmm

---

Hello Just A Girl,

do I understand this quite weird post well: someone wanted to join, but now doesn't want to anymore?

That wouldn't be a problem, we just need to find another player.

Shambles, how about this?

I have withdrawn from the competition Drisos, as I am about to be admitted into a rather prestigious VI clan and will be very busy training and getting up to speed. I will, however, work with you as I promised.

The manner of speaking that Just A Girl uses reminds me of Trish, Shambles' wife ... as does the wry, tongue-in-cheek, sassy nature of her comments. I think she is giving me a lighthearted bad time because I withdrew from the tournament. All in good fun though, I'm sure.

No worries .... there will probably end up being more players interested eventually than the tournament can accommodate. It just takes time for word to get around is all.

I must say that deep inside I dislike it that you probably won't be playing STW anymore, m8. But I should act as a good friend: I wish you lots of fun and luck in playing VI MP, I hope that you'll get in that clan you're talking of.

Of course you'll be busy with VI a lot, but you won't abandon Sword dojo, would you?

Well, good luck and enjoy! :bow:

yeah it was trish.
ive had a word with her she didnt think youd take it to heart so she didnt remove it

Shes just teasing.
She never used to tease people but ive been somewhat of a bad influence on her,


ShambleS
:bow:

Hey Shambles m8, no problem at all. I was grinning when I read it cuz I figured it was her. I understand the frustration--was a tough choice for me but, I am having fun learning vi and I will need to work at it if I am to carry my weight with the clan I'm in the process of joining.

Drisos m8, it doesn't mean I won't be playing STW MP anymore, just not nearly as often for a while until I get my vi skills up. While vi is like STW in some ways, in a lot of ways it's quite different. The guys I'm in the process of hooking up with are very good players so I'll have to work to improve my vi-specific skills. I'll still be able to come online and play STW sometimes.

I'll always keep and eye on the Sword Dojo and help out folks when I can m8. I'm quite fond of the place.

Yah id been watching you get more involved with MTW, toga
"lurking in the forum"
guessed it would probably lead to that But its no problem really,
I began playing mtw, Personaly I like the campaign mode in MTW.
But im going to stick with my shogun for multi play.

Hope you have fun :)
==========================================================


So back to the tourniment :bow:

Who's gonna be the last entry :)??

a pic "of anything" and email is all u need :P
1st email that arives will be the one who joins,
so if you want to play but cant be bothered sending an email, You may want to re evaluate your position.

I see more than 8 ppl say they like STW most in a poll i made
So come play,
All skill levels are welcome Personaly I will probably loose in 1st round,
and if any 1 think's they could go on and win it all with ease....
so u dont want to play and embarase us ....
come and play any way,

Its just a bit of fun,

please send a pick 114 x 102 pixels and an email exprsessing Intrest to
shogun_tourniment@hotmail.com
shogun_tourniment@hotmail.com
If you like you can send any size picture and i will resize it.

==========================================================



EDIT.

Here we go then, In addition to the tourniment I am also going to accept Log files. from any battles,

But not through E-mail, becous it would Take for ever,

Its a simple idea and should work flawlessly,

Heres the plan.

You send me a email and i send you a user name and password,

you can then go to my web page and Upload your log files there.

You should name them like so,
username_date

Id prefer dd/mm/yy becous its an accending logical order
shortest 1st...

But you cand do it any way you like,

So heres an example.

ShambleS_06-05-05 NamE_DD-MM-YY
or
ShambleS_05-06-05 NamE_MM-DD-YY


they would be seen here.

http://shoguntw.no-ip.info
Theres also a Link now on wab page called Battle log files.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TogakureOjonin

Drisos m8, it doesn't mean I won't be playing STW MP anymore, just not nearly as often for a while until I get my vi skills up. While vi is like STW in some ways, in a lot of ways it's quite different. The guys I'm in the process of hooking up with are very good players so I'll have to work to improve my vi-specific skills. I'll still be able to come online and play STW sometimes.

I'll always keep and eye on the Sword Dojo and help out folks when I can m8. I'm quite fond of the place.

---

Glad to hear this Toga, I don't want to miss you. ~;)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shambles

Id like feed back on the "super ashi" subject,

---

WE/MI v1.02 was designed to play at 7k koku per player. It was tested extensively at 7k, but the guns in those tests were weaker. The guns were increased in power on the last day of the beta test, and there wasn't enough time to test the effect on the overall gameplay of these more powerful guns. The guns in WE/MI v1.02 are 300% more powerful than the guns in original STW v1.12.

Two problems in v1.02 interact to mess up the gameplay. First, the guns were made too powerful. That causes the morale system to get messed up because too many casualties are inflicted per volley. That caused players to raise the koku to 10k/player so they can increase the morale of units with honor upgrades. That causes the second problem to kick in in a big way. The second problem is that the cost of upgrades is not calculated correctly. This error allows lower base cost units to pick up more combat power than higher base cost units for the same upgrade cost. If you play with too much koku, the rock, paper, scissors system is destroyed because lower base cost units become stronger than higher base cost units when both are upgraded to equal cost, and 10k is too much koku.

As far as I'm concerned, v1.02 plays better without guns at 7k. The 7k might be low enough to lift the ban on yari ashi, but I don't remember for sure. If you eliminated weapon and armor upgrades, that would remove the upgrade cost problem, and there would be no need to ban yari ashi or limit units in any way.

Cant i just go edit the unit stats and make every 1 use them,
Reduce gun fire power.
it seems to be writen in hex so it should be easy.

and with these asigari creatures,
do they have their own multiplyer that i can change. so they get more expensive as the uprgades get added on, but it dosent afect the other units,
or would their be 1 multiplyer that covers all the uits,

I spose i should just go look lol.
but if otheres have already tried,....

EDIT,

What sets multiplier base value? origional honour level defence and mele
or is it units initial cost?
Becous expermineting now, i notice the ashigari problem is quite severe.
and id like to tweake them a little so people wouldnt really want to use them

You can edit stats easily, simply by changing the values in the troopstats.txt and projectiles.txt files. However, balancing them is far from easy. Puzz3D and his crew are experts doing so, with years of experience, and they spend weeks to months editing and testing stats in order to get a balanced set.

AFAIK, base unit, honor, and upgrade costs are hard-coded and cannot be modified.

All players must use the same stat in an MP game or the game will fail as soon as players hit the battlefield. If you were to create a custom set of stats, you'd have to distribute them to all players you wanted to battle with online. Unless you include a statswapper, these stats would have to replace their original stats, and would take affect in every aspect of the game--MP, Single Player, Custom Battles, etc.

If you want to eliminate the 4 max rule and ban on ashi, I'd suggest using the 1.03 stat at 7K-8K koku. It is better balanced over all than the 1.02 stat, and you'd be leveraging the work of some knowledgeable people on the subject. The statswappers available already incorporate it, which would make its distribution and use easier. However, keep in mind that the majority of players who would likely be interested in playing at this late stage might prefer 1.02 with the "standard" limitations, as that is what they are used to. I think your biggest challenge is finding participants, so using the most popular stat set might help with that. Then again, there is a group that likes the 1.03 stat too. The challenge there would be getting them to participate. Good luck.

i just want to make ashi's cost more really, But cant find where the unit base cost is hiden.

i tried making them stonger and better at defending But this had no real effect on upgrade costs, so i just changed it back,

for around 1500 koku i was able to make group of ashigari guys will 8h 3 w 3 a.

for roughly same i was able to build a group of warrior monks
2h 2w-1a

the ashigari's slaughtered them 120 kills to 15.

just charged them at the warrior monks,
So i really want to change how much they cost
Becous honestly,
thats quite rediculous,

Also the guns i had to adjust down 11 points,
but then i had to adjust the archers and crossbow men

They lost less points than the gun men.
But now i find the computer Shoots 1 volley and kills 6 of my men,
Where as i only kill 1 of his,
Even though he had to march in to my gun fire.
and was using the same 2 line formation as i was,

This i feel is strange,
As i have been told wepon upgrades do not afect muskets.
So i do not understand how they killed more of my men per volley when we were playing on Ironing board
and i had 3A on my musketeers.

I will continue to experiment though,
and i will see what the difrent stats have projectiles set to,

any help with ashigary base cost would be helpfull,
and if any 1 knows for shure that you can or cant change it Id be happy to hear.

and were still looking for 1 more contestant for the tourniment.
:)

ShambleS
:bow:

IIRC, that's the problem: costs, both base unit and upgrades, are hard-coded and can't be modified. Puzz3D knows this for sure I think, so I'm sure when he sees this he'll set us straight.

well if its in tthe exe its self i can just decompile it.
But im not to clever at reading the jiobberish that then appears lol.

"it all looks the same to me"

Yes, but reverse engineering of commericial software is illegal so of course you were just kidding ~D. I'm sure the CA staff that patronize these forums understand this ... ~;).

I think your best bet is to play with the stats in the two stat files m8. Many very sharp peeps have done so in the past and have come up with some nice stats. Maybe you too will find a nice combination.

The units costs and upgrade costs are hardcoded and can't be changed.

I'll try to explain what causes the upgrades to imbalance the units. Even in the original STW which only had honor upgrades, the system allowed cheaper units to close the combat power gap with more expensive units. For instance, an H2 YS costing 200 koku had 6 combat points, but could be upgraded to H5 with 12 combat points and 12 morale, and cost 549 koku. The H2 WM at 500 koku had 11 combat points and 12 morale, so the H5 YS is 20% stronger and retains it's anti-cav bonus for only 50 koku more. The WM retained a speed advantage over the YS. Original STW was played at 5k koku so you couldn't go overboard with upgrading since you only had an average of 312 koku to spend on each unit. The H7 YA cost 538 koku and had 12 combat points and 10 morale. It matched the WM in speed but not in morale. So the original game was on a fine line between balance and imbalance at 5k koku.

In WE/MI, weapon and armor upgrades were introduced at the request of the players. However, Creative Assembly made a mistake when they added the weapon and armor upgrades in WE/MI. The cost of honor, weapon and armor are all figured independently on the base cost of the unit, and then added together. This gives an even bigger cost advantage in upgrading cheaper units because all three categories of upgrades are cheaper for lower cost units. The cheapest unit (yari ashi) gets the biggest benefit from this, but it affects all the units to some degree. Since the guns in WE/MI forced the koku level to go up to 10k, the upgrade problem is very bad for the RPS. Even original STW without weapon and armor upgrades would have a damaged RPS at 10k.

I'd try to handle it with rules. If you got rid of the muskets and played at 7k, you might be able to lift the ban on YA. The arquebusiers are probably ok since they have shorter range, longer reload and don't fire in the rain. However, many players have learned how to exploit the upgrade system in v1.02 with the no-ashi/4 gun rule, and have their armies all worked out through experience. You might loose some of them from the tourney.

I find that 4 muskets is still too many since each 60 man musket can kill 300 men. One 250 koku unit which cannot be successfully charged frontally can kill 5 units. That's Projectile Wars, and I can play a WWII game if I want that.

As far as I can tell, all but one of the seven currently signed up for the tourney haven't played much MP, and weren't around for the days of the 4 max/no ashi rules. My guess is they wouldn't know the difference if you ran the tournament as Puzz3D suggests--at 7K with no muskets, but allowing arquebusiers. Might be something to consider, given that your audience isn't attached to the old way of doing things in 1.02. Muskets do pretty much make a big part of a 1.02 battle "Projectile Wars." Personally I enjoyed some recent "no musket" games I had with RabidGibbon--they had a completely different dynamic when only archers and cav archers were the only ranged units used.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TogakureOjonin

Yes, but reverse engineering of commericial software is illegal so of course you were just kidding ~D. I'm sure the CA staff that patronize these forums understand this ... ~;).

I think your best bet is to play with the stats in the two stat files m8. Many very sharp peeps have done so in the past and have come up with some nice stats. Maybe you too will find a nice combination.

---

Its illigal?
well i spose i better not play then .

im going to see what i can do to the musketeers in stats,

and i have the origional cd of stw here cd 2 is scratched but in the past i copyed the 2 cd's to 1 folder, then as it tells me Filename.xxx is broken,
I replace them with a similar file that i renamed.
its only about 5 event anims that are effected by the scratch,
so when i do that i get a Boat landing event anim for ninga assasination and stuff lol. But it will then install.
So i can see what the stats origionaly were. on the 1st un patched version of shogun tw.

I dont want to stick a bunch of rules on people,
But the ashi's are a problem if i cant change their cost.

Shambles, can you please give a summarize which players we have now? ~:)

Just look at the tourniment page :)....

Ive taken flash butons away now so you dont need flash,
But you can skip the main page and go here

http://shoguntw.2ya.com/stwstats.htm

so 1st round is

Me vs hunkin elvis

trish (Just A Girl) vs Shakakahn

rabidgbbon vs Drisos (thats you)

and

Cha vs Next entry (whoever that will be)

And you left a emergency call in apothecary
i have replied.

Great!

So I will be playing against rabidgibbon, hmmmm, is he good? ~D

I wish everyone very much luck!