Backstabbing your allies?

Does anyone else have a really hard stabbing your allies in their posteriors? I swear, I would do so much better if only I took advantage of other factions weaknesses but I can't bring myself to do it when they are allies. Right now with XL mod I'm playing the swedes and the moscowvians have been a longtime ally and and even offered me an alliance after I took an opportunity to become neutral before I could attack. I could take them militarily and my kingdom would be much better off because of it, they are my biggest rival GA wise.

As peacetimes are scarce in my campaigns (they all seem to be out for my blood) I tend to use them to organise my defenses rather then planning an attack. I'm never inclined to attack an allie as I need all the help I can get when the rest of my neighbours start testing my defenses. (If your empire grows big enough you should be glad if there is one country that stucks with you)

I agree, Alwas try not to attack allies, even when its easy and productive. Usually I try to find a faction they are warring with, make a treaty with that faction to negate the treaty with my old buddies, or failing that, pull all but a peasant unit out of a juicy province and wait for teh inevitable attack. Seemed easier in Shogun, just wait two turns and they'd attack.

ichi:san_smiley:

yeah, i think the AI in shogun was much inclined to casually betray you and attempt to swipe provinces. i never had much compunction about attacking them with no warning. i think you were supposed to lose honour if you did it a lot, but i never noticed that happening to me!

i'm reluctant to do it in MTW though. it seems bad and immoral. not that executing 500 prisoners just for defending their homeland is 'moral' either really! if you're a small 'locked' province like Aragon or have no decent rebels to attack, why bother allying with them in the first place? unless this affects the AI's response? can you make the AI 'suspicious' by refusing an alliance for no reason other than you're intending to invade them?

I don't think the campaign AI is sophisticated enough Matteus, but it'd be a nice feature! Really byzantine (in the constant intrigue sense), you refuse an alliance to avoid getting into a war with their enemies and end up getting invaded for your troubles!

If my allies are weaker than me, I'll help them where I can, lifting sieges, even overseas if my treasury can afford the constant ransomings. If they're realm is bigger than mine, I'll be queitly plotting their downfall, marking targets for my assassins and readying my armies out of sight of the border!:charge:

i think you're right lugh, but it is a shame! the threat of force etc., or being able to 'demilitarise' your borders, which would save those florins.
i have helped out in sieges, but generally find willing military allies a pain in the butt. recently, with the Hungarians (hard, early) i invaded Venice (900-odd v 2000 Italians) and received the 'help' of 1300 HRE and 1500 Sicilians. naturally, i didn't get the province as my allies had brought more men, which left my strategy in tatters despite the fact that i 'won'. and attacking them to get it back anyway would be a) suicidal and b) ungrateful!!
the Italians countered, however, and knocked out the Sicilians, so i attacked again and got...another huge army of Germans 'helping' me to help themselves. by now the Italians even had fewer men than me, so i didn't need help at all...allies eh? i think i prefer enemies. stuff Venice. my quietly sulking king is off for a nice holiday in the Balkans where rebels and Byzantines abide. for now.
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being able to 'demilitarise' your borders, which would save those florins

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I do this where possible anyway. It's especially easy with gunpowder. Just stick an RK and a volley gun in a Citadel/Fortress, they can't be starved out and most armies are torn to tatters before they reach the inner keep, and if they do, you've a unit of FootKnights with a moral boost since they can't run away! If you use ex-heirs you can get 4-5 valour FootKnights right from the go.

I hate it when allies help you out, usually they do nothing but get cut to ribbons anyway, even when they've overwhelming numbers.

If you want to sting the HRE, pick your targets carefully. A few times as a set upon French King, I've managed to spark civil wars by claiming several small victories in a single turn.:san_laugh:

i knew volley guns had a use other than decimating your own troops...

yeah, actually getting ONTO a battlefield with allies is often worse. although i did have one occasion where a small force of allied Italians neatly flanked the French army we were fighting, allowing me to attack frontally and squash them.
all too often the AI fails to follow this hammer and anvil plan and attempts to apparently hide its army behind yours.
i'm always guiltily tempted to almost finish off the enemy and then turn my army onto my allies, especially if their king is present! dastardly but sooo tempting.

my most treasured ally intervention was when my desperately knackered HRE crusade reached its objective to find many many Eggies waiting, only to be unexpectedly joined by a Byzantine army at the last minute. said Byzantines proceeded to generously expend 3 regts of Kats on the enemy, allowing my guys to win the battle and the objective :san_smiley:

In my current Irish hard VI game I am allied with the Saxons and Mercians. They seem to be at war with Mercia invading then deciding not to fight and withdrawing for the last few turns. I am tempted to dive in to tip the balance but I am not sure how the game will handle this - assuming I invade the saxon province at the same time as the Mercians, what options will I be offered - could I side with the Saxons or will I be helping the Mercians - anybody got any ideas?:san_huh:

You shouldn't still be allied with both, it normally pops up "you're allies have gone to war, will you remain allies with the Mercians? This will negate your alliance with the Saxons" or somesuch.
Check your diplomatic status, it likely your only allied with one of them now.:san_huh:

^Have not you been asked to pick side by the time the first attack ended? I kinda don't catch the situation.

As for the backstabbing, I don't really backstab for no reason. I usually try to find a real reason other than expansion purpose. Say Faction A refuses to court my Prince or whatever than the alliance should not preserve. Lets just say I'm offended. I also get temptation to capture ally's royal(usually king) on battle field but I haven't been able to do that. I'm too nice.

It is a pain in the butt when your ally brings more troops to the battlefield and gets the province in the end. I'm always tempted to pull back. It's mentally challenging though. I usually fight anyway when I know it's gonna be a huge battle.

if i knew my allied faction leader didn't have an heir, i would probably take him out on the battlefield, ally or not, but you never really know when the AI is going to choose to support you, you can't guarantee killing him off as he might fight his way out and get away, and sometimes you need allies to buffer you from other powerful factions or the Horde. the situation might occur when it'd be worth it, but only once in a blue moon. you could use it to make a fast buck, but you'd then find yourself with a second war on your hands, so it'd better be a damn big ransom!

I don't backstab for no reason. I choose my allies carefully so that I don't have to attack them the next turn. But for powerfull nations like the horde it's wise to accept their offer. Also if someone wants to marry my heir I let them no mather what the faction.

I generally don't attack my allies unless they've seriously pissed me off. Of course, what consititutes "pissing me off" can differ. :san_grin: My current Danish campaign is actually a pretty good example. The Novgorods refused to let my prince marry their princess *after* I'd already given my princess to one of their boys (which I rarely do--I usually keep my daughters so I can marry them to good generals/governors who have low loyalty).

Then on top of that, they sent a large army to "help" me conquer Prussia; I had invaded with nearly 1000 men, and definitely did not need their assistance! Fortunately for me, the Nov army was led by the Grand Prince himself, and was accompanied by one of his sons. Needless to say, the People of Novgorod suffered a grevious loss that day. Oh yeah, and I of course defeated the Prussians as well. :san_cool:

That example is one of the few times where I've attacked an ally, however. Given that your faction leader loses influence for going to war with your buddies, I prefer to play nice as long as my allies don't mess with me.

Hi all, for all of you playing mod games (such as myself, XL Volgas,early) I have found it a lot easier to gain allies and even when your kingdom starts to really become a major power. In normal mtw after a while no one would be your ally just because your a power in the world. Has anyone else found that more factions means more allies?

So thats why I say save your allies, and keep them safe....but if they ever attack you...slaughter every last one of them ha ha :san_laugh: (evil santa)

The diplomacy of AI is totally messed up, they ALWAYS break their alliances anyways. Just leave a weak province at the border and they'll attack no matter. As the Spanish, I have been allied with the Italians for at least 50 years and they have three dinky provinces left. I have protected them from their French enemies for so long and what do they do as soon as I decrease the number of troops in a neighboring province? They break our alliance and attack...Good job dummies!

MTW is like the old saying "Keep your friends close and your enemies closer."

Gaining allies seems to only really help at the early stages of the game. I have never had an allied faction break an alliance in the first 50 years or so. After that most players will have a nice empire and the other factions start to get worried. They don't call the game Total War for nothing.

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Originally Posted by lugh

You shouldn't still be allied with both, it normally pops up "you're allies have gone to war, will you remain allies with the Mercians? This will negate your alliance with the Saxons" or somesuch.
Check your diplomatic status, it likely your only allied with one of them now.:san_huh:

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Lugh - you must be psyhcic!! I checked my allies - I am with the Saxons, but not the Mercians . The Mercians were beseiging the Saxons capital, I attacked, as did the Saxons, resulting in the Mercians retreating. My forces were moved back to Gwent and I got a message saying I had helped raise the seige and the Saxons were very appreciative - don't send thanks, how about a few Huscarls!! - As the Northunbrians attacked the Mercians as well, it looks like open season on Brummies.:san_rolleyes:

Also, for some reason, the Welsh, who only have Cornwall now, attacked the Saxons in Devon, so I might go and help my Saxon chums down there.:san_tongue:

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Originally Posted by Martok

Given that your faction leader loses influence for going to war with your buddies, I prefer to play nice as long as my allies don't mess with me.

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That, I didn't know, cheers Martok! Even more reason to be a good Christian now.

Nah, KK, I've just played the game a fair bit. You must have missed the message is all. If you "spacebar" through all the end-year messages you can miss them. I've lost valuable allies in that way, since the message defaults to agree, and you have to disagree if you wish to keep the other ally.

i did not know that either Martok, thanks! nice to see that perfidious backstabbing scoundrels don't get rewarded.

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Originally Posted by lugh

That, I didn't know, cheers Martok! Even more reason to be a good Christian now.

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Originally Posted by matteus the inbred

i did not know that either Martok, thanks! nice to see that perfidious backstabbing scoundrels don't get rewarded.

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Happy to help, mates. :san_cheesy: I actually didn't discover it myself until I'd had Medieval for almost a year, shortly before Viking Invasion was released. I had a game going as the Spanish, and I couldn't understand why my king's influence kept fluctuating as I was conquering the Iberian peninsula (your Influence goes up 1 point for every 2 provinces you conquer). It was then that I realized that I had been allied with Aragon and the Almos when I'd attacked them. To confirm my suspicions, the French (who I was allied with at the time) were excommed, and I decided to launch a Crusade into Aquitaine while simultaneously invading Tolouse. The turn after I invaded, I checked my king's influence; and sure enough, it had dropped from 5 back to 4. :san_shocked: Once I got over my initial surprise, I was quite gratified to realize that there *is* a penalty for breaking alliances. It definitely adds a nice touch to the game!

Does that include the sea battles?

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Originally Posted by miho

Does that include the sea battles?

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Yep. Whether by land or sea, any attack on your ally will drop your faction leader's influence.

Martok, don't we gain influence by conquering two provinces? That said, we can gain influence back even is treaty is broken as long as we make a 'successful campaign'. No?

Anyway, I learned this backstabbing ordeal differently but the hard way. One time I crusaded against HRE as the Spanish. Not just I lost a friend but I also lost my 8-star ex-prince because my crusade got disbanded as someone else got the province first. I tried too find him in local inns, found him in Cordoba but he got that florin tag on his picture.

hey, that's an interesting development, Weebeast! not had a crusade get beaten to the objective and forcibly disbanded...must be quite embarrassing for your guys to ride into town and find your nation's former best general drowning his sorrows in Ye Olde Dogge and Duck Taverne...

i guess on the one hand you become known as a backstabbing scoundrel, on the other hand people are scared of your military prowess and your complete ruthlessness...swings and roundabouts.

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Originally Posted by Weebeast

Martok, don't we gain influence by conquering two provinces? That said, we can gain influence back even is treaty is broken as long as we make a 'successful campaign'. No?

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Correct. From one of my earlier posts:

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Originally Posted by Martok

I had a game going as the Spanish, and I couldn't understand why my king's influence kept fluctuating as I was conquering the Iberian peninsula (your Influence goes up 1 point for every 2 provinces you conquer).

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In that game, my influence was at the standard 4 before I began my war against the Almos, Aragonese, and later the French. When I was done, my influence was at 6: I'd conquered something like 7 provinces, but I'd also betrayed 3 allies as well. Fortunately, however, I'd launched 2 successful Crusades (1 against the Almos and 1 against the ex-commed French); otherwise my influence would've stayed at 4, despite all the land I'd acquired.

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Originally Posted by Weebeast

Anyway, I learned this backstabbing ordeal differently but the hard way. One time I crusaded against HRE as the Spanish. Not just I lost a friend but I also lost my 8-star ex-prince because my crusade got disbanded as someone else got the province first. I tried too find him in local inns, found him in Cordoba but he got that florin tag on his picture.

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Ouch! :san_shocked: Yeah, that's gotta smart....

When I decide to attack someone I usually do it from more than one side if I have the ships. Also if you win 3 or 4 battles in a turn your enemy will have a civil war.

I do my best not to directly backstab, I prefer to make it look like an accident. So while my allies army is pounding away at the enemies, I just fire my missiles into the general crowd and blame it on the wind.

If I want/need to backstab an ally, I usually wait til they're at war with someone, and then ally with that other faction (assuming I'm not already, of course). That way I get to choose which faction I stay friends with without losing honor and influence.

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Originally Posted by Martok

If I want/need to backstab an ally, I usually wait til they're at war with someone, and then ally with that other faction (assuming I'm not already, of course). That way I get to choose which faction I stay friends with without losing honor and influence.

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That is how alot of people did it in the Middle ages as well, for instance the Burgundians. They were originally allied with the Norman kings of England when the Plantaginists decided to challenge their leige, but then shifted back to the King of France latterr, helping to turn the tide of the war.

I guess trying to ally with your ally's enemies or provoking them to attack are the ones that makes the best sense. Sometimes it can pay to assasinate your fathers and brothers in law but inheriting stuff is so rare is hardly worth mentioning.

I was read the manual during installation, hehe so I luckily knew about the honour (In STW)/ influence thing from the start. :san_grin:

I don´t know why, but I´m really bad at the diplomacy business. I usually have my emisaries all over the place, pestering the other kings for marriages and alliances, but they´ll never agree. Not only if they´re allied to factions that are at war with me, all the time. And, of course, the AI just loves the "naval incident" to break up my alliances.

[QUOTE=Ciaran]I don´t know why, but I´m really bad at the diplomacy business. I usually have my emisaries all over the place, pestering the other kings for marriages and alliances, but they´ll never agree. Not only if they´re allied to factions that are at war with me, all the time. [QUOTE]

Once your country/empire grows big enough, nobody wants to be your fiend. In my case, I have never attacked a faction without being attacked first but I have no allies and three enemies ( all the rest are eliminated by me or are pissing their pants if someone mentions fair England :san_laugh: 'insane laughter' :san_laugh: )

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Originally Posted by Ciaran

I don´t know why, but I´m really bad at the diplomacy business. I usually have my emisaries all over the place, pestering the other kings for marriages and alliances, but they´ll never agree. Not only if they´re allied to factions that are at war with me, all the time. And, of course, the AI just loves the "naval incident" to break up my alliances.

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I experience pretty much the same. The A.I. doesn't like you, especially not at higher difficulties I think. Nobody will sign an alliance with you if you are at war with their allies, BTW. However, I find I can get marriages by refusing an alliance offer and then sending a diplomat to catch one of their princess. The naval incident can be prevented to some extent by not using single fleet ships and staying away from large concentration of enemy ships. The A.I. knows it has an edge in naval combat, but doesn't seem to realize this provokes war.

I also very often see "global peace" with everybody but me having +6 allies at the start of the game, and me and my enemies the only ones being at war. Blimey, and I thought this game was about Total War...

Often, I play as the Germans, and i always seem to get plenty of allies, until i get to control most of western europe from allies backstabbing me. For some reason though, after I've taken out the French and English, everybody starts attacking me one at a time til the end of the campaign, so I never have problems backstabbing neighboring factions.

just had that 'naval incident' playing as the Hungarians...took Venice, crushed the HRE, wiped out the Poles, all very nice. and then the Byz, with whom i had had cross-border trade and peace for a hundred years suddenly attacked all my ships and beggared Venice in one turn. cos i'm tooling up to attack France i pull all my (remaining) ships out, send in an emissary and patch it up, only for them to do it again ten years later, this time sailing frantically into the western med to attack my one ship (and fail)! Patched things up again, but we're now only a few years from the Horde, at which point Byzantium will find its enemies don't just come from the east...AI backstabbers receive no mercy from me.
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