When asking a question can get you killed

just a little FYI....

A prize-winning Iraqi journalist, working for the Guardian, was investigating claims that the US and Britain misused and misappropriated tens of millions of dollars belonging to Iraq. (I assume that’s on top of the $9 billion in Iraqi money an audit last year said we "lost.")

A few days ago, the director of his film informed US authorities about what he had learned, and asked for an interview.

Soon afterward, American troops stormed into his home, firing into the room where he, his wife, and children were sleeping, and took videotape that he shot for the film.

If that isn’t an attempt to intimidate a journalist asking dangerous questions, I can’t imagine what it is. Looks like this thing ahs gone way beyond censoring photos of coffins.

Cute.

...although by what I hear on the precision and accuracy with which Coalition troops often arrest people, it might actually have been unintentional...

Why did they shoot shots into the bedroom if its occupants were all sleeping?

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Originally Posted by Marcellus

Why did they shoot shots into the bedroom if its occupants were all sleeping?

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To wake them up! Obviously:inquisitive:

Oh, well that makes sense. Alarm clocks are so last year. Gunfire all the way!

My goverment is full of class * **** ups. If they dont want to say anything about the money grant the interveiw and sidestep the questions. I mean these guys absouletly suck. FDR fooled the whole nation to think he could walk and these cant even cover up lost money!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! This is a new low. My goverment has stopped trying :no:





/edit: complete asterisks to replace partial asterisks

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Originally Posted by strike for the south

My goverment is full of class * **** ups. If they dont want to say anything about the money grant the interveiw and sidestep the questions. I mean these guys absouletly suck. FDR fooled the whole nation to think he could walk and these cant even cover up lost money!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! This is a new low. My goverment has stopped trying :no:





/edit: complete asterisks to replace partial asterisks

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SFTS, don't try not to brainwashed to much here. I gurantee you every existing government in the world today isn't perfect. Mistakes happen everywhere, regardless of what people say.

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Originally Posted by ghost908

SFTS, don't try not to brainwashed to much here. I gurantee you every existing government in the world today isn't perfect. Mistakes happen everywhere, regardless of what people say.

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Huh? Being perfect and going into a journalist residence and trying to play KGB are two diffrent things. If the goverment dosent want to answer his questions than side step them. The man was a journalist doing his job. Hell they couldve even gone for the thats classifed routine. The Antics they pulled have no place in the American goverment

What a mess. It used to be easy to explain to my more Anti-American friends from the Middle East that plenty of Americans were wonderful and kind people, and only the policies seemed hostile. What can I say now after Abu Gharib, Falluja, regular shootings of civilians, etc.

This is not to say the criminals and murderers of Zarqawi's ilk haven't earned their evil reputation. Nor is it to say there are not people in the US Army who seem as though they really like the people of Iraq and want to help.

But with examples of self-defeating behaviour like this being consistent and prominent, the US is really digging a grave for its credibility. Actually, the grave is probably filled by now. I almost feel bad for the US military which seemed somewhat chivalrous before this war. Now they appear somewhat barbaric and certainly frightening.

I no longer think an all-volunteer army is a good thing. I know lots of Americans are appalled by these things, and I think if there were more average American people in the military we wouldn't see so many problems, and maybe the whole war wouldn't have come.

Ladies and Gentlemen I announce to you: The Oil Wars. Where Governments play with billion dollar commodities like they are a part of rival mafia's. When someone knows something you don't want them to know, you either extort them for millions of dollars, or whack em'. If this is the way things are gonna be, I think I'll go with the best of the Crime Lords and vote for Don Corleone as the next President.

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Originally Posted by strike for the south

Huh? Being perfect and going into a journalist residence and trying to play KGB are two diffrent things. If the goverment dosent want to answer his questions than side step them. The man was a journalist doing his job. Hell they couldve even gone for the thats classifed routine. The Antics they pulled have no place in the American goverment

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By the sound of it, it's only a couple of people in on this. The highly doubt the entire federal government knew and sponsered this raid. My point was, that there are bad people everywhere, and it isn't just in the US. I guess I'm just tired of everyone complaining about how corrupt the US is, when in fact it really isnt that bad.

The joys of dictatorships are so plentiful and diverse, enjoy.

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Originally Posted by Abdel Hakam

I almost feel bad for the US military which seemed somewhat chivalrous before this war. Now they appear somewhat barbaric and certainly frightening.

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The military is like a gun, reasonably harmless until someone points and pulls the trigger. Blame the politicians, and the top government officials (who are mostly politically appointed), they're the ones doing the killing, even if they don't get their hands dirty.

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Originally Posted by ghost908

SFTS, don't try not to brainwashed to much here. I gurantee you every existing government in the world today isn't perfect. Mistakes happen everywhere, regardless of what people say.

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Frankly, there's scant little information about this story- try googling it. Zilch about it in the American media... What is out there on the net seems to all be based on the original Guardian story. Sorry, that's not enough information for me to make an informed comment on.

Zilch about it in the American media...
That must be another example of the damned liberal media bias then:laugh4:
Anyway what was he bothering to research the corrution and mismanagement for , it is already pretty well documented .

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Originally Posted by Abdel Hakam

What a mess. It used to be easy to explain to my more Anti-American friends from the Middle East that plenty of Americans were wonderful and kind people, and only the policies seemed hostile. What can I say now after Abu Gharib, Falluja, regular shootings of civilians, etc.

This is not to say the criminals and murderers of Zarqawi's ilk haven't earned their evil reputation. Nor is it to say there are not people in the US Army who seem as though they really like the people of Iraq and want to help.

But with examples of self-defeating behaviour like this being consistent and prominent, the US is really digging a grave for its credibility. Actually, the grave is probably filled by now. I almost feel bad for the US military which seemed somewhat chivalrous before this war. Now they appear somewhat barbaric and certainly frightening.

I no longer think an all-volunteer army is a good thing. I know lots of Americans are appalled by these things, and I think if there were more average American people in the military we wouldn't see so many problems, and maybe the whole war wouldn't have come.

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Well said! The US army is gradually degrading in discipline the levels of a typical 30 years war army, which is sad. Plus, the attempt to hide the abuse of money confirms that the Iraq war was, as the world community has believed all along, an affair of laundrying the money of Bush and his friends. Finally, the fact that media in the USA doesn't mention such a major milestone in America's development towards dictatorship is a proof that media is owned by, or indirectly controlled by, the same people who control the USA. Americans - this is the time for you to use your rights to carry guns, and fulfil your obligation towards your nation by revolting against this oppression. This is the time the founding fathers of your nation foresaw would once come.

I'm still waiting for an explanation of where asking a question can get you killed. As it is, noone's got killed.

It seems this is a story by a biased, anti-American newspaper with no collaboration in other media.

But don't let that stop you in your quest to find some morsel of a smidgen of a gist of a synopsis of a story somewhere that could be, if you squint and tilt your head during low light levels, construed as proof America is bad.

Crazed Rabbit

Heh. My mother always keeps saying that since the US is functionally immune to the sorts of external invasions that brought down previous hegemons, its eventual end must come through some sort of internal conflict...

That aside, did you know that not too long ago I read of several Delta Force or similar hush-hush elite unit members being under investigation for overly creative employement of operation funds for such necessities as SUVs and bigger houses back stateside ? Had apparently been going on for a while too...
But given how absurdly bloated US military expenditure is graft is quite possibly inevitable. Hang enough money before people's eyes and sooner or later their resolve starts cracking.

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Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit

As it is, noone's got killed.

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What?

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Originally Posted by Tribesman

That must be another example of the damned liberal media bias then:laugh4:

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Well, to be honest, the lack of coverage does seem suspicious. If we know anything about our media, it's that they seldom pass up a story critical of the administration.

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Originally Posted by Xiahou

Well, to be honest, the lack of coverage does seem suspicious. If we know anything about our media, it's that they seldom pass up a story critical of the administration.

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not

true

Your first example was the NYT withholding a story until it could do the most damage (Patriot Act renewal).

Your second seems to be a plain smear of FNC.

And I'm still wondering what the actual situation is when asking a question can get you killed.

Crazed Rabbit

can get you killed - not did get you killed. something about army guys using explosives and firing off weapons blindly while journalists and their families are in their beds definitely puts this in a can kill situation.

1. the only reason the nyt printed that story was because (did u read the article?) the reporter was going forward with the story in his book anyway and they didnt want to get totally scooped.

3. for a "smear" there sure a lot of quotes and facts to back up the assertion of being biased towards the current administration.

both examples show how the media are pro-actively not reporting everything, thus this story not making it to the american media (the reporter was working for a british publication)

knee-jerk partisan hackery doesnt make the story any less true.

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1. the only reason the nyt printed that story was because (did u red the article?) the reporter was going forward with the story in his book anyway.

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No, I did not 'red the article'. Perhaps that is how you obtain information, and may be why you are so consistently misinformed.
It was the NYT that said that's why they published it.
From

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But two journalists, who declined to be identified, said that editors at the paper were actively considering running the story about the wiretaps before Bush's November showdown with Democratic Sen. John F. Kerry of Massachusetts.

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We gather that the NYT wanted to run it as a last minute surprise attack before the election. Why? Surely not for love of Bush. This would mean they held off so they could cause more harm later. Hardly a good example for your argument.

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3. for a "smear" there sure a lot of quotes and facts to back up the assertion of being biased towards the current administration.

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Quotes from 2 disgruntled employees who had an axe to grind because FNC wasn't the typical liberal station. All on a biased site.

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both examples show how the media are pro-actively not reporting everything, thus this story not making it to the american media (the reporter was working for a british publication)

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In your NYT example, news was withheld to cause further damage to Bush. But now news of this alledged incident is out there, and the networks aren't picking it up, perhaps becuase it is inflated or false. Your second example wasn't really an example, and could, at the very best, be used solely to explain why Fox isn't reporting this. But what of CNN, MSNBC, etc.?

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knee-jerk partisan hackery doesnt make the story any less true.

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Really? I'm glad you admit the dubious source and motivation for the article on Fox. I'll go get some hatchet jobs on the Clintons and democrats in general then, and be sure to remind you of that.

EDIT: Hmm, let's look what Ali Fadhil has to say:

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Originally Posted by Ali Fadhil

So was this intimidation or just a typical piece of bungled repression? I don't know and cannot tell, though I have yet to have my tapes returned.

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But don't let the fact that the man supposedly intimidated not being able to tell if it is intimidation stop you from claiming it is! Keep right up on that America=the Great Satan ruled by Bushitlerburton! Let not the facts nor the opinions of those who were there stop you from deciding what happened and why based on your politics!

Crazed Rabbit

Shot him?

COME ON!

AT LEAST use a friggen Air Strike or a convienently placed suicide bomb! Geeze. :dizzy2:

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Originally Posted by solypsist

not

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Oh man! I just got pwned! :rolleyes:
I'd go find all the links to show the opposite, but hey- I only have another 40-50yrs left to live. :laugh:
Besides, it's immaterial my point that it's not being covered anywhere except by the Guardian.

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can get you killed - not did get you killed. something about army guys using explosives and firing off weapons blindly while journalists and their families are in their beds definitely puts this in a can kill situation.

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Yeah, that's what further creates suspicion. Someone tell me, when clearing a house, is it standard practice for the US military to blindly pop off rounds into each room you enter? I'm pretty sure that's not in the manual.

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both examples show how the media are pro-actively not reporting everything, thus this story not making it to the american media (the reporter was working for a british publication)

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Can you even find it in a major British paper other than the Guardian?

I realise this is difficult for some to accept, but whereas the Guardian does have a soft left editorial stance, that does NOT mean that it is in the habit of making facts up or running unchecked stories.

Just my advice but I wouldn't bank on the "it never happened" defence.

And as of today I am officially no longer amazed that certain factions seem to see nothing wrong in American troops behaving like imperial stormtroopers, that is unless the caveats that "If this did happen it raises the most serious questions about the regime we live under" went without saying in some the posts above. SFTS gets the "real American values" award in ths thread.

(Factoid: In only three of the past 51 years has American military spending as a % of GDP been higher than it is this year. And yet, ironically, America both has no militarily capable enemies at all, (and so should be spending less) and yet STILL lacks the military capability to engage countries posing a moderate threat to her interests, Iran, North Korea, and so isn't even getting value for the billions she does spend. Is the military the most inefficient public sector organisation in the US?)

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(Factoid: In only three of the past 51 years has American military spending as a % of GDP been higher than it is this year. And yet, ironically, America both has no militarily capable enemies at all, (and so should be spending less) and yet STILL lacks the military capability to engage countries posing a moderate threat to her interests, Iran, North Korea, and so isn't even getting value for the billions she does spend. Is the military the most inefficient public sector organisation in the US?)

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You *do* know who put the concept "military-industrial complex" into common circulation, do you...?

And I'll just say the efforts of the partisan apologists never cease to amaze me.

A few of my friends were in Iraq during the initial invasion.

I understand that on at least one occasion they freaked out and just sprayed a place with bullets just in case there was somebody waiting to shoot them.

I wonder if this is exactly the same and sadly for the journalist in question it happened whilst he was there.

I'm willing to believe that's far more likely than deliberately targeting journalists.

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Originally Posted by Taffy_is_a_Taff

A few of my friends were in Iraq during the initial invasion.

I understand that on at least one occasion they freaked out and just sprayed a place with bullets just in case there was somebody waiting to shoot them.

I wonder if this is exactly the same and sadly for the journalist in question it happened whilst he was there.

I'm willing to believe that's far more likely than deliberately targeting journalists.

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The problem is, after freaking out and spraying bullets, they stole a video tape.

heh, that's weird.

I really should put the effort in and read the links.

Edit:
ok, I read the Guardian article. I see ABSOLUTELY NOTHING wrong with taking information storage media from a suspected insurgent. If said suspect then turns out to be innocent then I'd hope they'd return the tapes. Maybe they are checking through them, maybe like the best huge organisations they've managed to lose them, maybe they will return them, maybe it's a giant conspiracy, maybe he's an insurgent: who knows at this stage of the story?

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Originally Posted by Taffy_is_a_Taff

heh, that's weird.

I really should put the effort in and read the links.

Edit:
ok, I read the Guardian article. I see ABSOLUTELY NOTHING wrong with taking information storage media from a suspected insurgent. If said suspect then turns out to be innocent then I'd hope they'd return the tapes. Maybe they are checking through them, maybe like the best huge organisations they've managed to lose them, maybe they will return them, maybe it's a giant conspiracy, maybe he's an insurgent: who knows at this stage of the story?

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Agreed, the point was that it at least wasn't a case of normal freaking out behavior. If there isn't a case of media censorship of communist Russia type then the American authorities will surely go out publicly with a statement and return the tape, unless it contains classified information.

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Originally Posted by ghost908

By the sound of it, it's only a couple of people in on this. The highly doubt the entire federal government knew and sponsered this raid. My point was, that there are bad people everywhere, and it isn't just in the US. I guess I'm just tired of everyone complaining about how corrupt the US is, when in fact it really isnt that bad.

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Yes it may not be that bad but its still much worse than it should be in America. Just becuase were better than Iran or El Salvador with freedom dosent mean jack to me. We should be the best and currently were not. If this reporter found something out it is his duty to report it wether it looks bad on the goverment or not. Im sick of a few under fed overbearded people dictating American policy back home. We will never get rid of terrorism someone will always get pissed or snort the pages of there holy book. We have to learn how to deal with it, not take away god given rights. Im not willing to trade liberty for the sense and illusion of securety. If that makes me hate freedom or hate America so be it but its a sad day when my fellow countrymen are condoning this act facism.

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Originally Posted by Zalmoxis

The joys of dictatorships are so plentiful and diverse, enjoy.

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:cheers:

Thank you, come again.

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Originally Posted by Watchman

You *do* know who put the concept "military-industrial complex" into common circulation, do you...?

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I don't. :embarassed:

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Originally Posted by strike for the south

Yes it may not be that bad but its still much worse than it should be in America. Just becuase were better than Iran or El Salvador with freedom dosent mean jack to me. We should be the best and currently were not. If this reporter found something out it is his duty to report it wether it looks bad on the goverment or not. Im sick of a few under fed overbearded people dictating American policy back home. We will never get rid of terrorism someone will always get pissed or snort the pages of there holy book. We have to learn how to deal with it, not take away god given rights. Im not willing to trade liberty for the sense and illusion of securety. If that makes me hate freedom or hate America so be it but its a sad day when my fellow countrymen are condoning this act facism.

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Why do you hate freedom? Do you love America? :furious3:

Commie Bastard

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I don't know anything factual yet, but this smells very fishy. Shooting into a journalist residence, storms in and take a video tape? As much as I wish it'll be either mistake or the guy's really an insurgent, the scene points out to good ol' censorship and media intimidation. And that is not good. Whatever happens to freedom. :no:

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Originally Posted by AntiochusIII

I don't. :embarassed:

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The incumbent president around the time the Cold War got going in his retirement speech, that's who. His speechwriters actually nicked it from I think an obscure British theorist - I can check the names if you want to.

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Originally Posted by Watchman
You *do* know who put the concept "military-industrial complex" into common circulation, do you...?

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I believe the individual's name is Dwight D. Eisenhower

Probably the one. Old American presidents aren't my top field, so I'll take your word on that.

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Originally Posted by Watchman

The incumbent president around the time the Cold War got going in his retirement speech, that's who. His speechwriters actually nicked it from I think an obscure British theorist - I can check the names if you want to.

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'This conjunction of an immense military establishment and a large arms industry is new in the American experience. The total influence -- economic, political, even spiritual -- is felt in every city, every State house, every office of the Federal government. We recognize the imperative need for this development. Yet we must not fail to comprehend its grave implications. Our toil, resources and livelihood are all involved; so is the very structure of our society.

In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the militaryindustrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist.'

Dwight Eisenhower, Farewell Address, January 17, 1961

The term originally inserted by speech writers Williams and Moos was 'military–industrial–congressional complex', but Eisenhower's science advisor thought that was too East Coast.

However, that stuff is all publicly accessible and easy to find. But who was the Brit?

*sound of PolSci textbook pages flipping*
:book:
Correction: the fellow was American. C. Wright Mills by the name. The concept apparently appears in his critical book The Power Elite from 1956.