The obligatory Unit thread!

This will be the unit speculation and wishlist thread, here we talk all about units (only), and how they will function, so what units would you like to see and how would they function?

I would love CA if they would put unique low tier militia for muslim factions (and i mean not the generic urban militia everyone got), for example Beduin Warbands, Beduin/Ashaer Cavalry.. etc these would generally have decent attack, low defence and cheap (with poor morale). Also upgraded versions like beduin nobles (heavier version of the lighter cavalry).

Also an upgraded AUM for the almohads so they won't suck in the late period, call them the Almohad Urban Cohorts. ~;p

So don't be shy, mention whatever unit you'd like (fictional or not, but don't exaggerate the fictional units to superhuman proportions), and hope CA would read this thread and take our advice!

hmmm what units Superman! nah just kidding. I want Pagan Milita from my Pagan lands. This would of course lower your statis with the Pope but who listens to him? Pope what Pope HOLY CRAP THEIR IS A POPE, to bad im pagan. Not Uber untis just so that your Pagan provances dont get mad at you by having a garison of Christian Knights. I wouldnt take to kind to that if i was a peasant but then agian im king arnt I yay for me. Also i wouldnt mind Russian Raiders for when they are at war with Mongols. Russia never did take to kind to people in their land. MOTHER LAND. Ya thats about it i will probly think of more and post agian. Kool thread thanks for starting :2thumbsup:

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Originally Posted by faisal

Also an upgraded AUM for the almohads so they won't suck in the late period, call them the Almohad Urban Cohorts. ~;p

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Upgraded AUMs!!! :dizzy2:

Aye Carumba!

They were kick-ass enough to begin with - cheap, easily available, +1 Valour in Granada, easy acces to Iron to upgrade armour....

I know what you're saying though about the weak Almohad roster in the later game, I always interpreted this as CAs attempt to reflect the decline of the Moors in Spain - they did the same with the Byzantines.

Armoured Longbowmen.

My own little MLRS units. ~:smoking:

Some type of Kensai Unit, don't know how historic it would be but an uber-one-man unit really kicks ass.
Or a Hashishin/Battlefield Ninja unit for the Catholics.

Hussite war wagons.

In many ways, I find it easier to think of MTW units I'd like to see cut, than new ones I'd like to see introduced. My hit list would include:

* Kataphracts - replace with mercenary Frankish knights

* Byzantine infantry - give them long spears, not swords. By that time, they were an anti-cavalry shield, not medieval legionnaires.

* Almohad urban militia - remove the half-plate (where on earth did that idea come from?)

* Saracen infantry - do not make them more heavily armoured than the early European spears (unless they are just dismounted Saracen heavy cavalry)

* Mid period Arbalests - move them to late

* Spanish lancers - make them less heavily armoured than the other late period Catholic knights (& give Gothic knights lances, as well as maces, & allow England and France to have them)

* Sword armed Men-at-arms units - make them just the dismounted version of knights or mounted sergeants, and give them "spears" (anti-cavalry properties) due to their lances

Indeed, I think the unit classes of MTW need totally rethinking and probably blurring. I don't think the swords vs spears distinction is historical - virtually no units in that period were solely armed with swords (& certainly not the Byzantines or the Almohad urban militia). Moreover, the more heavily armed European fighters would typically have horses and so have the option of dismounting. Certainly, with the English medieval army, the knights and men-at-arms would be both the best "spears" (anti-cav infantry), the best "swords" (shock infantry) and the best cavalry (heavy cavalry). The French knights might have been initially more reluctant to dismount, but did do so routinely after stumbling against the effective anti-cav English "spear+longbow" combo.

With the early/mid-period Catholic European armies, I would like to see distinctions made more in terms of "soft factors" such as training and proficiency than "hard factors" such as weapon type (although armour and mount would remain a key hard factor). With the evolution of polearms and the reintroduction of the pike, then weapon-based classes would start to become more distinct.

Having early/mid knight/men-at-arms units that simultaneously excel at several roles might reduce the "rock-paper-scissors" aspect of the game, but I'd prefer historical accuracy to an artificially introduced gameplay. Balancing such multi-use powerful units would be a challenge but there are enough options (support cost, build time, unit size, tech requirements etc) to do it. Moreover, if it wanted to, CA could even introduce an additional quantitative constraint on the pool of such "elite" units (e.g. you can't have more elites than provinces etc).

I only really care about Scotland and Byzantium myself. Here's what I'd like to see:

Scotland:
Scottish Pikemen
Mosstroopers (light cavalry)
Hebridean Pirates
Highland Clansmen (no tartan, please!)

Byzantium:
Kontaratoi (absolutely agree with the point about spearmen)
Menavliatoi (still agree with the point about spearmen)
Tzangratoi (Byzantines did have crossbowmen eventually, just not very good ones)
Trebizond archers that are only recruitable in Trebizond
Any sort of advanced units at all (I mean, if you change history so that the Byzantines reign supreme once more, you're not going to see the same military decline, are you?)
Some Western mercenaries like Latin Knights

And above all I want to see ACCURATE units! I don't mind about native languages or anything, so 'Byzantine spearmen' are alright by me (the names can be changed), but I do want proper unit rosters.

All I want is Varangian Guards dressed in the ceremonial armour that they were shown in on the info card in MTW1

I dont care if it is accurate or not, those guys were sweet, I cant wait to have them chewing through a battlefield...

...must control breathing...

dragons

:2thumbsup:

Byzantines woefully suck in 1080, if only they'd have pushed it back 80yrs back...ubt oh well.

I want detailed Timurid heavy cavalry tarkhan "hero" units

I want nice detailed lancer/archer Georgian heavy cavalry

Historically correct Irish and Scottish units (see Ranikas post at the .com to see what they should be).

If they get them right then they can include flying, diving, burrowing, fire breathing, Aztec Dragon Warriors for all I care.

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Originally Posted by The_Doctor

Hussite war wagons.

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Yeah, that would completely rock for the late period :2thumbsup:

Cool with a new subforum btw. I hope CA tries a more historical approach this time. I don't think it's necessary for them to remove things like Chivalric Men-at-Arms and other generic units, but I hope for removal of priests and dogs etc., the gameplay and mechanics of battles are interesting and complex enough as it is with light, shock and heavy version of all units, plus the possibility of adding a secondary weapon (javelin, dart etc.) for many units (a part of their engine potential I think they haven't taken full advantage of yet - and when they did they gave the units a little too much ammo for pila IMO). So my unit lists wish is - units that use the full secondary weapon potential of the engine but without giving them too much ammo!

I want the military orders to be somewhat expanded. Not just knights and their foot soldiers. They often had several tiers of units.

The heaviest possible knights for Denmark too. The knights were in absolute control in Denmark and after the initial backwardness they caught up and became very well armed in gothic armour and the like.

Landsknechts would be a nice period determined mercenary unit, perhaps also recruitable for the HRE? Should also have a few tiers.

Wendic raiders/warriors. Light infantry found on the northern coast of Germany (Baltic side) and Poland. Fast and speararmed. Pointy helmet but no armour and a large round shield... Come to think of it, they would be pretty generic. But their defensive value would be good, and they would be cheap. Merc and rebel only.
Add in Wendic nobles, and then you get a swordarmed version with a little armour as well.

Flemish Militia! We can't leave them out. Spear infantry with AP (since we can't have a true mix of weapons). Fairly heavy armour.

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Originally Posted by caspian

Some type of Kensai Unit, don't know how historic it would be but an uber-one-man unit really kicks ass.
Or a Hashishin/Battlefield Ninja unit for the Catholics.

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If they want historical uber units they can always choose between the al-murabitin, the viking berserkers and/or joms vikings (would however be removed in the later eras), the varangian guard, templars/hospitallers, etc. But I personally think it's more fun if those uber units have as many men as the normal units, like the gaesatae in EB :2thumbsup: . It makes them possible to use in a more natural way, otherwise they're always flanked, surrounded etc., or have to be as overpowered as the berserkers in BI (who could easily rout a whole early era army alone and didn't get very tired in the process).

Ah but the Berserkers of VI on the other hand were in my mind almost perfectly balanced. Sure a superb normal sized units would be cool, in fact I would prefer it, but I doubt that will happen. And if it does, then we will see Urban Cohort Mk 2.

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Originally Posted by Kraxis

Ah but the Berserkers of VI on the other hand were in my mind almost perfectly balanced.

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I agree

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Originally Posted by Kraxis

Sure a superb normal sized units would be cool, in fact I would prefer it, but I doubt that will happen. And if it does, then we will see Urban Cohort Mk 2.

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Yeah, the main problem is that the engine completely lacks any other means of limiting recruitment possibilities of certain units other than through cost. Would be a great thing both for the MTW2 game and for mods to allow some other control mechanism to limit such stuff. Not 100% of all men who are fit for military service have the mentality to be able to fight like a berserker... Maybe it could be tied to province population, so different units could require different population sizes to be recruited, i.e. a simple militia unit could be recruited everywhere, but good shock troops would be the best of the best and only one in a thousand would be good enough, i.e. as a parameter in the units file...

Some more Scottish units:

Some of these i would see as province specific

- Gallowegian Infantry (demanded the inital attack at the Battle of the Standard 1138)

- Ettrick archers

- Orcadian Norse warriors

- Lowland Pikemen - Early and Late period versions

- Galloglaich

- Gael champions

Darned, you guys already got my pick of the super Aztecs. Blech.

Anyway, I think the war-wagons would be fantastic. I've liked them ever since I first heard about Jan Hus. Do I have any clue how they would be implemented? Nope! Does it matter? Nah, it is not for me to figure that out. All I need to do is buy the game! But truthfully, I don't expect them to make it into the game. Too esoteric for your average Halo ape.

I just can't help but wonder if the strat map units might live up to their potential. I doubt it, but I know in RTW a fair number of extras were removed. Well-poisioning for example. I don't think it will appear in this game either, but hey, I can hope!

Azi

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Originally Posted by The_Doctor

Hussite war wagons.

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the first game didn't have the hussite rebellion, but now that there is a chance for it, might as well add the hussite faction and their war wagons!

I have a somewhat radical request in regards to Urban Militia and Militia Seargents. I would love them to have a valour bonus when defending cities against assault. While of course not being trained professional soldiers, they do have 2 very important things in their favor:

1.) They're fighting to defend their homes, their families, and their livelihoods.
2.) They're obviously going to be more familiar with the layout of the town, which should give them a natural advantage over their attackers.

I still expect them to be crappy in regular field battles just like they are now, but I don't think it's unreasonable that UM and MS should receive *some* type of bonus when defending towns/cities against an attack.

Same units as medieval total war, with a few suprises.

Basically what I want is all the units in BKB's mod!:2thumbsup: That would be perfect. Especially Champion Swordsmen. Wow, they were so cool. 16 of them could butcher an army of over a thousand medium spearmen. Anyway, I want:
Skutatoi to give the Byz good spearmen
Cheaper feudal knights
Flemish mercenaries (in the early period for the Western Kingdoms, these should be able to be recruited 24/7, not just when some happen to be passing in the region). They were the staple of many kingdoms in the 1100s.
No obselence (if it isn't broke, why fix it?)

I hope we dont just get a copy of MTW (1) units list, anyway my list will add

Levied Longbow
Retained Longbow
Mercenary Longbow (the type used by Burgundy)
Crossbows from Genoa (elite mercenary)
Spiked club men (Flemish)
Bohemian archers

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Originally Posted by faisal

the first game didn't have the hussite rebellion, but now that there is a chance for it, might as well add the hussite faction and their war wagons!

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Not directly, but it could happen since the Hussite herecy was part of the game. And that could get problematic if you didn't expect it.

Genoan Crossbowmen... Had almost forgot about them. YEAH! They are a damned must, especially since Genoa isn't in the game as a faction (what the heck?!?). The sailors of MTW were pathetic, so I hope Genoa gets their famous crossbowmen.

Skutatoi would also be nice, Byz Inf with spears instead.

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Originally Posted by Martok

I have a somewhat radical request in regards to Urban Militia and Militia Seargents. I would love them to have a valour bonus when defending cities against assault. While of course not being trained professional soldiers, they do have 2 very important things in their favor:

1.) They're fighting to defend their homes, their families, and their livelihoods.
2.) They're obviously going to be more familiar with the layout of the town, which should give them a natural advantage over their attackers.

I still expect them to be crappy in regular field battles just like they are now, but I don't think it's unreasonable that UM and MS should receive *some* type of bonus when defending towns/cities against an attack.

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This sounds good, but what I would like even more is that each castle and city come with their own garrison/militia, that only appear when the province is invaded. This would slow down attackers (as the defender will get a free army out of thin air) and be historically accurate, as a King could call on his soldiers to leave their province only for a limited amount of time (or he had to pay them), but when the province was threathened he got them for free.

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Originally Posted by King Henry V

No obselence (if it isn't broke, why fix it?)

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Not sure what you mean here, but if you are saying you should be allowed to upgrade existing units with better kit as the technology improves, I'd give that a big thumbs up.:2thumbsup:

No I think he is talking about the Varangians (and others) vanishing...

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Originally Posted by Ludens

This sounds good, but what I would like even more is that each castle and city come with their own garrison/militia, that only appear when the province is invaded. This would slow down attackers (as the defender will get a free army out of thin air) and be historically accurate, as a King could call on his soldiers to leave their province only for a limited amount of time (or he had to pay them), but when the province was threathened he got them for free.

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Heh. I almost made that suggestion myself, but then dismissed it, as I thought I'd be ridiculed outright. As it turns out, though, a poster (I want to say her name is Ranika) proposed virtually the same thing over at the official site. I'm definitely all for that idea!

Hmmm... That could work very well with the expanded timepriod and four seasons. The main problem with four seasons is that the players can in certain cases just blast ahead and win the game within 40 years if not less. That is just not cool at all. This way you are forced to fight at every step of the way. Added to the fact that you need a loyalty-generating garrison, it would take quite a bit of time to get going.

Of course, since RTW introduced the culture thing, maybe that can be added to this feature so that the free militia doesn't come unless you have less than 10% culture difference (and then only partially, with more at 5% and the full deal at 0%)? That way would recently conquered places be rather weak and in need of the professional troops,thus slowing down the impossible advances we have been able to perform.

I guess some would complain at this, that it would be too problematic. Well, would it really? Then each siege would be fun as you would need plenty troops to take the place, and it is always fun to slaughter militia. Further it would benefit the more deliberate attackers, those who plan out their attacks to the full and those who try to generate another 'home'.

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Originally Posted by Kraxis

Of course, since RTW introduced the culture thing, maybe that can be added to this feature so that the free militia doesn't come unless you have less than 10% culture difference (and then only partially, with more at 5% and the full deal at 0%)? That way would recently conquered places be rather weak and in need of the professional troops,thus slowing down the impossible advances we have been able to perform.

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Exactly. For added realism the equipment and number should be determined by the province and castle. A field fortification gets a profesional but small force, a rich trading city gets a slightly bigger, well-equiped militia, a breadbasket province gets many poorly-armed peasants and a few archers, and so on. But perhaps this is a bit too much to ask.

Yes I think it is... But then again I also think what wehave been speculating on in general will not happen at all.

It will likely be considered 'gamey' by the marketing people. It would never sell well as a feature. Only people like us would appreciate it for what it is.

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Originally Posted by Kraxis

Yes I think it is... But then again I also think what wehave been speculating on in general will not happen at all.

It will likely be considered 'gamey' by the marketing people. It would never sell well as a feature. Only people like us would appreciate it for what it is.

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I think it's a great idea as realistic reflection both of the terms a lot of troops would serve under and the speed of empire expansion.
The marketing case of the feature is less micromanagement of 'boring' garrison forces that you're only really interested in when you need them.

Mongol Mangudai, plus various other units to depict the absorbtion of conquered races....Qipchaq light cav, Khwarazmian armoured cav, etc

.........Orda