Diplomacy and keeping relations up

I have found that the diplomacy system is actually quite "playable" despite many complaints about it. I am currently playing a grand campaign as Venice (H/VH).

I have found that you can make treaties and with relative reliability keep them if you give tribute/gifts to the faction you are in alliance/peace with.

For example, 100 florins per turn has kept the HRE off my back as Venice with trade rights granted all the way, even though they are also allied with my enemy, Milan. It seems that a continued tribute makes them hesitant to attack you.

Also, I keep an eye on the relationship meter and when it drops to so-and-so I give some gift, like map information or 500 florins to get it back to reasonable. I also think that the longer you have had peace with a faction, the less it takes to keep the relations up.

The second thing to keep diplomacy up is to ally with the pope and keep gifting him with suitable stuff (not necessary regions even though many do this as well). I find that a 100/turn is enough to keep decent standings as long as I also give some 500 florins as a gift if I do something to upset the pope.

So far I have consistently kept England, Denmark and HRE in peace, with England and Danes as allies even. This also helps with trade income, which in turn helps with the tributes.

The gifts do not have to be big, just that you have to keep on giving.
The odd part is that this sort of skews the game against the player, but I suppose it must be so to level the field a bit.

I tend to make up for this by selling off trade rights and alliances to other factions, which will in time betray me, attack and then when I beat them they will again pay me for the priviledges.... The trick seems to be to keep a few (2-3) factions gifted up and happy, so you have some safe fronts. Also, make sure that you have a diplomat in their areas. I suppose that muslim nations are more of a problem for the player as there are plenty of enemies that will probably not even take the gifts.

Great post, Thanks for the pointers.

I'm gonna try that soon

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Originally Posted by Rothe

The odd part is that this sort of skews the game against the player, but I suppose it must be so to level the field a bit.

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Well, taking into account the huge amount of money you can get by:
- map selling.
- extortion.
- selling trade rights.
- selling alliances.
- selling your princesses.

etc...

I usually receive tribute the first 30 turns from 5-8 factions (about 1000-4000/turn). So, spending a small part of this to have only one opponent can work very well. I'll try next time.

Interesting to see 100 florins has an effect, maybe I am wasting money with my 1000 florin gifts (they pretty much guarantee a one level increase in relations with that faction)?

Additionally I play with Hard campaign difficulty too and I suspect that your reputation automatically degrades over time with other factions if left alone...

I suppose any tribute will make them less likely to attack you.

I suspect the following:

The AI is less likely to attack you if your relations are so-and-so or reliable and up from there. It may still attack you at so-and-so. This is logical.

If you are at so-and-so, some things may prompt an attack and some things make an attack less likely. I suspect that even if you pay 10 florins/turn it will help. I find that a bit against logic, the continued tribute makes a difference even if it is small, so it seems to have a separate additional influence from the relations with the other factions you see on the diplomacy screen.

Also, it is less likely for a catholic AI to attack you if you have high papal standing.

So, my tactic is to keep the relations at so-and-so with single gifts (maps/500 florins etc.) and also to keep up the small continued tribute. Also, I keep up relations with the pope.

I could be wrong, but so far it is working.

Diplomacy works and keeps alliances together except against AI fleets. For example France started a war with me by landing his diplomat to my shores and by blocking my port at the same time. But in the next turn I was able to make pease and form a new alliance with them. We didn't even have a mutual border. To me it seems that AI can't controll it's fleets properly and he starts war accidentally with them.

Well, that does not sound so unreasonable actually... with all those drunk, crazy sailors and all... They starte a brawl here or there and voila - you've got a war on your hands :) However, if the relationships with the attacking AI faction are good, they are likely to sue for peace and apologize for their fleet's actions... sometimes paying with a province or two...

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Originally Posted by Wallas

Diplomacy works and keeps alliances together except against AI fleets. For example France started a war with me by landing his diplomat to my shores and by blocking my port at the same time. But in the next turn I was able to make pease and form a new alliance with them. We didn't even have a mutual border. To me it seems that AI can't controll it's fleets properly and he starts war accidentally with them.

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Keep a spy in your closest neighbor's cities. Then, when offering a gift to the faction you are likely to see their "priorities" revealed. I had Germans at "amiable" level for some time, however, their priorities were clearly stated as "war"... In about ten turns (from the time the war priority appeared) they attacked... got excommunicated the very next turn since (I guess) my relations to the pope were perfect :) The same could not be said about the Germans. (H Campaign difficulty)

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Originally Posted by Rothe

I suppose any tribute will make them less likely to attack you.

I suspect the following:

The AI is less likely to attack you if your relations are so-and-so or reliable and up from there. It may still attack you at so-and-so. This is logical.

If you are at so-and-so, some things may prompt an attack and some things make an attack less likely. I suspect that even if you pay 10 florins/turn it will help. I find that a bit against logic, the continued tribute makes a difference even if it is small, so it seems to have a separate additional influence from the relations with the other factions you see on the diplomacy screen.

Also, it is less likely for a catholic AI to attack you if you have high papal standing.

So, my tactic is to keep the relations at so-and-so with single gifts (maps/500 florins etc.) and also to keep up the small continued tribute. Also, I keep up relations with the pope.

I could be wrong, but so far it is working.

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Also don't milk the AI for all its worth. Making a diplomatic deal that is either considered genorous or very genorous increases relations.

So if you can sell map info for 2000 at balanced and 1300 for genorous, you dhould opt for 1300 unless you need every florin you can get. Also selling the map info for 2700 at demanding may or may not be accepted but it can decrease relations.

I have to say that having heard loads of nay-saying about "M2TW diplomacy is broke" and "it doesn't work" and "the campaign AI is stupid!" that I'm having a great campaign as england on Vh/Vh, mostly cause i'v spent a lot of time and effort on the diplomatic front. I think that the trick is that you have to work at your relationships - keep in touch with your allies and keep an eye on your foes. I allied with the French (outrageous, I know) on my very first turn by marrying my faction heir to a princess of theirs and that forged an alliance which has lasted for over a hundred turns so far. Knowing that the HRE and Denmark would surely attack me, I allied myself quickly to Poland, the Vatican and Portugal and, more recently, to Venice. Again, I have worked on ym relations with my allies; periodically giving them map information or a thousand here and there to keep relations "amiable" or higher. Not a single Alliance has been broken because we have great relations. I can't help but conclude that all those nay-sayers who are whinging about the diplomacy being broken and complaining that alliances aren't worth diddly-squat are simply lazy: an alliance is only worth that which you put into it. If you make an alliance with someone early in the game and don't ever do anything to sure up your relations then they will eventually turn against you - it figures.

Again, by using the diplomatic channels, I have secured tens of thousands of cash from warfare. I have never started a war, but have brought about devastating retribution for those who have crossed me and as a result my diplomatic reputation is reliable. By demanding extortionate money for cease-fires when enemies realise their error of attacking me and for attacking common enemies with allies and again demanding monies there's a lot to be made through diplomacy and this can be used to pay for diplomacy. Diplomacy pays, folks, diplomacy pays.

In my latest "coup de grace", I have literally negotiated global peace! Due to my massive armed forces I was making less than ten thousand cash profit per turn so decided that I needed peace. I sold a cease fire to Milan for twenty thousand and used that coupled with my two, unmarried daughters to broker a couple of other alliances which netted the result of every war ceasing accross the globe! I couldn't believe it! Shows what can be acheived when you're a diplomatic power-house who is trust-worthy, powerful and influential. Oh, did I mention that the last two popes have been English? :beam:

Diplomacy takes some effort but is extremely rewarding and adds a fantastic dimension to the game.

I agree with Maestro's assessment. Diplomacy does work in terms of alliances.

My problem/difficulty is reaching peace with an enemy. Nothing seems to tempt the AI into peace. Any tips on achieving peace during a long war with an enemy

Playing as the Moors on H/H and using the Regnum Dei 1.7.7 mod, I was able to get an alliance and trade rights from every faction except the Scots. I even allied with the Pope. By the time I got my two diplomats to the Russians and the Turks, I had already gone to war with Portugal and Spain; but all of the other alliances held until the French suddenly remembered how much they admire Roland and blockaded one of my ports.:grin:

Even after destroying Spain and Portugal, and going to war with France, I remained allied with every other faction (except the Scots because I hadn't gotten around to putting a diplomat to sea). I'm interested in seeing how long I can maintain all of these alliances while slowly picking off factions one at a time.

I have not tried the VH campaign setting yet, but I have similar experience on H. MTW 2 Diplomacy does make sense to me.

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Originally Posted by maestro

In my latest "coup de grace", I have literally negotiated global peace! Due to my massive armed forces I was making less than ten thousand cash profit per turn so decided that I needed peace. I sold a cease fire to Milan for twenty thousand and used that coupled with my two, unmarried daughters to broker a couple of other alliances which netted the result of every war ceasing accross the globe! I couldn't believe it! Shows what can be acheived when you're a diplomatic power-house who is trust-worthy, powerful and influential. Oh, did I mention that the last two popes have been English? :beam:

Diplomacy takes some effort but is extremely rewarding and adds a fantastic dimension to the game.

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Well, led me see if i understood. To keep any aliance you got PAY tribute for that in every single turn. You got GIVE gifts even if you are stronger... allright.
So this crapy diplamacy is working? Forgive me but its just ridiculous... thats a broken diplmacy made for fanboys.

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Originally Posted by Eques

Well, led me see if i understood. To keep any aliance you got PAY tribute for that in every single turn. You got GIVE gifts even if you are stronger... allright.
So this crapy diplamacy is working? Forgive me but its just ridiculous... thats a broken diplmacy made for fanboys.

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Well, look at United Nations in real life today... Basically all developing nations are ganging up and shouting in one mouth that it is the "duty" of the developed nations to give cash to the developing ones :furious3:... Guess, who is stronger in the field of battle... Guess who is paying... Would you say it is ridiculous?

IMHO the game models this situation quite right... :juggle2:

Yeah I've found the OPs tactics it works a treat as well.

The diplomacy also works far better than Rome. For example, last night Egypt declared war on me. I was the English and in control of Antioc. Then the Pope declared a crusade to Jerusalem - jwhich was controlled by Egypt. Spain, Milan, HRE, France, Sicily all declared war on Egypt.
Next turn Egypt scrambled to get a cease-fire with me, they were totally freaked out.

Also the power of a nation when it comes to negotiating isn't nessesarily based on their sole faction power, but rather the power of their alliance. A weaker faction may actually regard you as weak if they are member of a very powerful alliance (and vise versa).

Yeah sure... if US dont send food to Senegal (for example) Senegal will probably declare war and send lots of MIG17 to bombard Washington. If they dont send some money to help lets say... Trinidade e Tobago, they will probably do the same, of course! Thats an incredible argument.

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Originally Posted by Eques

Yeah sure... if US dont send food to Senegal (for example) Senegal will probably declare war and send lots of MIG17 to bombard Washington. If they dont send some money to help lets say... Trinidade e Tobago, they will probably do the same, of course! Thats an incredible argument.

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I am not talking about direct attacking here. I am talking about relations, which the game models in the range from "abysmal" to "perfect". in the current world, even after sending food to Sudan, the relations between them and the US, for example, stay "so-so" at best.

And even if we talk about direct attack: it's not unprecedented in history (not realistic nowadays though). Look at german tribes wandering into Roman territory. Frequently their forces were quite insufficient to defeat the whole imperial army, but they still managed to "squeeze out" tribute either from Estern or Western Rome...

I don't think anyone is declaring the M2TW diplomacy as perfect, simply that it is not as random or as bad as many percive it to be...

Basically the way the AI is program, through choice or fault, it does not deal well with being bullied into something. In a game of diplomatic chicken it never blicks and it does not bluff (as far as we are aware). It never backs down and will fight to the end and all deals have to break even at the very least according to some formula (which may change with difficulty level).

I wonder how aggressive it is programed to be? If an AI faction is hemmed in by other factions it is allied to what logic actually determines whether it should attack and whom it should attack (Weakest? worst relationship? worst reputation? the player?)?

Hopefully the fact that much of this has been expressed externally in text or XML files means we have a chance at finding out once the patch/unpacker comes out...

I think the AI diplomacy has worked well for the most part. However, there is a very big exception and that is ceasefires. In the end of my Venice game, I was around 40 provinces and was making tons of money and had lots of soldiers. The English were asking for 40k for a ceasefire. They had the British Isles and maybe a few provinces in Scandinavia or Iberia. Needless to say, I said no thanks to the repeated offers and conquered London instead.

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Originally Posted by Eques

Well, led me see if i understood. To keep any aliance you got PAY tribute for that in every single turn.

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No, you didn't understand. Not one bit. But then it takes a modicum of intelligence to work the M2TW diplomacy.

Put it this way: if you met a guy at a party who you got on with and decided they were a friend then their status with you is friendly. If you then never phone, write, text or talk to them again, that friendly feeling is gonna go away over time, right? Same applies with diplomacy. If you decide this guy and yourself have similar interests or goals and make a pact to work on a project together for the common good of each other then you have some kind of "alliance", but if you then don't ever phone, write, text or talk to them again or share any ideas or anything then that "alliance" is going to faulter.

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Originally Posted by Eques

You got GIVE gifts even if you are stronger... allright.

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It's simple people-politics, it ain't rocket science. You don't have to pay some kind of tribute every turn to maintain an alliance - that would be broken diplomacy - yo ucompletely misunderstood my post, or failed to read it properly. it's a case of looking after your allies, not paying for their friendship. if they're broke then give them some money - it's called being friends. If they're struggling with a war, or lose a settlement then help them by attacking their enemies or even retake their settlement then gift it back to your allies. it's called being friends.

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Originally Posted by Eques

So this crapy diplamacy is working? Forgive me but its just ridiculous... thats a broken diplmacy made for fanboys.

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If you want a game to have diplomacy whereby you can simply "make an alliance", to which the AI has to keep forever and then go round conquering the world and expect your allies to idly sit back and watch, knowing full well that their time will come then you're playing the wrong game. That would be broken diplomacy.

If you're struggling with the diplomacy then say so - there's plenty of peopple who can, and will help you but coming out with comments like "its just ridiculous... thats a broken diplmacy made for fanboys" makes you sound like a spoilt kid who doesn't want to play any more cause he didn't understand the rules first time. might I remind you that the game does, indeed, have a 16+ certificate. :smash: :laugh4:

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Originally Posted by andrewt

I think the AI diplomacy has worked well for the most part. However, there is a very big exception and that is ceasefires. In the end of my Venice game, I was around 40 provinces and was making tons of money and had lots of soldiers. The English were asking for 40k for a ceasefire. They had the British Isles and maybe a few provinces in Scandinavia or Iberia. Needless to say, I said no thanks to the repeated offers and conquered London instead.

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Again this is based on their alliance power and not individual power. Check their rating, it is probably 'supreme' due to the alliances they were in, or something along those lines.

I agree that diplomacy in the game is very intelligent and intricate. The first campaign I played, I was busy getting used to the game and paid little or no attention to the relationship rating. Now I keep all my allied relationships at 'perfect' having learned to use that little gift box button next to the 'make offer' one. The AI mirrors what you would expect in real life. You have to support your allies in peace as well as war. Negotiating an 'attack faction' gift with an ally against one of their enemies does wonders for a relationship rating as it would in real life.

You have to get past the pride thing of apparent submission that is implied by thinking 'pay tribute'. It's just semantics. Think of it as yourself being a benefactor providing assistance to your allies. I'm not sure, but it would be logical for that to improve chivalry in the long run. Paying attention to the faction ranking graph and keeping your enemies generally the same as those of your allies, it is also apparent that providing allies with assistance is not against your own best interests as your group of enemies (declared or not) tend to decrease in ranking over time while your allies and yourself increase.

It is also well noted that a status of 'perfect' in relationship does not absolutely guarantee no hostilities. The famous quote,"walk softly and carry a big stick" comes to mind in discouraging hostile actions. I've had the French at a 'perfect' relationship status blockade one of my ports in an act of war. Despite this act of war, our relationship rating was still listed as 'outstanding'.

Is marriage only way to get alliance with anybody on VH?

The data text files have been released: https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=73971. The descr_faction_standing.txt file reveals quite a bit about what affects your relations with the Pope, as well as other factions, and your global reputation. Worth a read IMO.

Yeah some comments in those files show that the ai is set up not to trust the player, hence why helping it out from time to when as maestro suggested helps the ai to trust you.

Fascinating news about vassals/protectorage -- from descr_campaign_ai_db.xml:

Code:

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                        <decision_entry>
                                <!--
                                        if we're at war && we've more than five times his frontline strength && we're superior overall &&
                                        we outproduce him >>> propose he become vassal, invade immediate.  If our shadow, do not want to offer protectorate
                                -->
                                <min_entry        stance="AtWar" frontline_balance="5.0" military_balance="1.0" production_balance="1.0"/>
                                <faction_attitude        invade="invade_immediate" invade_priority="800" want_offer_protect="false"/>
                        </decision_entry>

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GAH!

Vanya sez...

Do not make the mistake of presuming your diplomats are cunning linguists. They only really manage to shove their own foot in their mouth most of the times.

Vanya routinely beheads those lying bastids anyways. Builds them, then beheads them before they can get Vanya into hot water. Keeps Vanya's supply of heads adequate during times of peace and keeps the enemies happy by not wasting their time with baby-talk and gobbledeegook.

It's what those lying, two-faced diploid bastids like to call "a win-win extensible value-added synergy-empowered process". (Or something like that. Youz must forgive Vanya's lacking gobbledeegook prowess. :shame: )

GAH!

I've played 4 campaigns on VH/VH
I've never started a war.
I've married princesses to other faction heirs to create (lasting?) alliances.
I've gifted money to allies.

I've never had an alliance last more than 6 turns into any game (except with papal states)

Once your power is supreme all diplomacy simply ceases to function (VH)

I have not been able to find any evidence whatsoever to support the sugestion that diplomacy in MTW2 is either intricate or logical.

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Originally Posted by Nebuchadnezzar

I've played 4 campaigns on VH/VH
I've never started a war.
I've married princesses to other faction heirs to create (lasting?) alliances.
I've gifted money to allies.

I've never had an alliance last more than 6 turns into any game (except with papal states)

Once your power is supreme all diplomacy simply ceases to function (VH)

I have not been able to find any evidence whatsoever to support the sugestion that diplomacy in MTW2 is either intricate or logical.

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You are playing on VH which is a completely different kettle of fish. Do not expect diplomacy on that level.

One thing I have noticed (and I noticed this in RTW as well) is that sometimes your production drops very low - almost to nothing - for a turn or two. I always suspected the AI made some rash decisions based on this production glitch.

They think you incapable of producing anything and go guns blazing, not realising you have about 20 cities able to pump out armies in a second.

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Originally Posted by maestro

No, you didn't understand. Not one bit. But then it takes a modicum of intelligence to work the M2TW diplomacy.

Put it this way: if you met a guy at a party who you got on with and decided they were a friend then their status with you is friendly. If you then never phone, write, text or talk to them again, that friendly feeling is gonna go away over time, right? Same applies with diplomacy. If you decide this guy and yourself have similar interests or goals and make a pact to work on a project together for the common good of each other then you have some kind of "alliance", but if you then don't ever phone, write, text or talk to them again or share any ideas or anything then that "alliance" is going to faulter.



It's simple people-politics, it ain't rocket science. You don't have to pay some kind of tribute every turn to maintain an alliance - that would be broken diplomacy - yo ucompletely misunderstood my post, or failed to read it properly. it's a case of looking after your allies, not paying for their friendship. if they're broke then give them some money - it's called being friends. If they're struggling with a war, or lose a settlement then help them by attacking their enemies or even retake their settlement then gift it back to your allies. it's called being friends.



If you want a game to have diplomacy whereby you can simply "make an alliance", to which the AI has to keep forever and then go round conquering the world and expect your allies to idly sit back and watch, knowing full well that their time will come then you're playing the wrong game. That would be broken diplomacy.

If you're struggling with the diplomacy then say so - there's plenty of peopple who can, and will help you but coming out with comments like "its just ridiculous... thats a broken diplmacy made for fanboys" makes you sound like a spoilt kid who doesn't want to play any more cause he didn't understand the rules first time. might I remind you that the game does, indeed, have a 16+ certificate. :smash: :laugh4:

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I agree with eques. Having to send "gifts" or as you prefer to call it "being friends by giving them some money when they are broke" sounds alot more like tribute to me. How come I am the one who must always be the one giving a gift? This "maintaining you friendship" is all one sided effort on the player and is complete BS. I give them gifts while they try to bribe my cities?
I have played many games where the diplomacy is a more give and take affair, castles 2, moo2, etc. Since I refuse to pay tribute to my "allies", this is what I get instead:
1. All relations deteriotate to abysmal, even my allies and factions im not bording.
2. My ally(byzantine) is sieging constantinople. I send an army through his teritory to help him because he is outnumbered. Before I even get there, relations deteriotate to abysmal(they were already there, but hey if helping my ally take a huge city deteriotates relations that is just par for the course in this game)
3. I have a huge armies marauding though enemy territory. He is getting some major pain from me. So he makes a generous offer, I only have to pay him 40,000 gold for peace. Gee, let me think about that. Continue to sack your pathetic cities for 10k a piece, or pay your weakling faction 40k so u can raise an army against me. Decisions, decisions....
4. In another game I am Spain. France declares war on me. I attack the invading armies and pope threatens to excommunicate me. WTF? Am I supposed to just get rolled over by france here?

Just because you learned to manipulate this highly one-sided diplomacy system to your advantage doesn't mean this is a balanced diplomacy system.

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Originally Posted by Morindin

You are playing on VH which is a completely different kettle of fish. Do not expect diplomacy on that level.

One thing I have noticed (and I noticed this in RTW as well) is that sometimes your production drops very low - almost to nothing - for a turn or two. I always suspected the AI made some rash decisions based on this production glitch.

They think you incapable of producing anything and go guns blazing, not realising you have about 20 cities able to pump out armies in a second.

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I'm playing on VH/VH and I'm "supreme" and nearly always number 1 in all rankings and I have excellent relations with my allies, have never been back-stabbed and am getting a great playing experience from diplomacy. :beam:

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Originally Posted by therother

The data text files have been released: https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=73971. The descr_faction_standing.txt file reveals quite a bit about what affects your relations with the Pope, as well as other factions, and your global reputation. Worth a read IMO.

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Note the part where the faction standing is normalised downwards each turn for both Hard and Very Hard dificulties (with it just occurring faster on Very Hard).

Also note the "Tall Poppy" functionality where the top scoring factions (if significantly larger) automatically become more unpopular with every turn.

Note also there appear to be many more ways to score negative relationship points than there are positive (true to life as any married man can tell you... :laugh4: )...

So if you want a game where the cards are not unfairly stacked against the player then you need a Medium campaign difficulty.

It will be interesting to go through the other campaign AI files to see what else changes with difficulty...

Since this was mentioned in a post above:
Is there a graph where I can view the quality of my diplomatic contacts? Currently I look these up while hovering my mousepointer over the other factions banner when in the Diplomacy menu.
So is there really a graph or did I misunderstand this??

I thought I could finish this off with a list of the thing yo can do to improve your relations with other factions:

Your relationship score goes from 1.0 (Perfect) to -1.0 (Abysmal). This should give context to the increase values noted below, additionally where you see normalized in general the large the number to the right, the small the potential change will be:

Trigger: Forgiveness (I am not sure when this is fired)

Trade_Treaty +0.07

Military_Assistance +0.12

Obvious_Bribe - fired for every 100 gold given as gift + 0.14
(this is why a big bribe gets a good improvment, but in theory a 2000 fl bribe should mean perfect relations which is obviously not the case so there must be another factor in play)

Demeanour 0.001
(I think this relates to getting a nice response in negotiations?)

Update_Religion - Make other factions like factions of the same religion a bit more normalise 1.0 100
(Automatic, should slowly improve your relations with factions of the same religion)

Update_Band_Together1 - Make factions try and band up with smaller factions
(No numbers here because there are 3 versions. This is the opposite to the tall poppy thing which automatically improves a faction's relations with the 5 smallest factions in the game)

Update_Easy_Difficulty - Adjust the AI relationships towards each faction normalise 1.0 50
(Playing the game on easy automatically improves relations every turn)

Update_Normal_Difficulty - Adjust the AI relationships towards each faction based on difficulty level (AI factions have normal difficulty) normalise 0.0 50
(Playing the game on Medium auromaticallu imporves realtions each turn up to a max of Neutral)

Increase_Global_Standing_New_Turn normalise 0.0 200
(Automatically moves all factions towards being Neutral).

Increase_Global_Standing_When_Allied,normalise 1.0 400
(Automatically moves Ally's relations towards Perfect)

prisoners_released_increase_global 0.02
(Every time you release more than 80 prisors)

occupy_settlement_increase_global 0.02
(Every time you Occupy a settlement, don't sack or exterminate)

So actual ingame actions:

Get Trade agreements
Get Alliances
Help out your allies militarily
Hand out cash
Do not be demanding in your deplomacy
Release prisoners
Occupy settlements

That is a list al ALL the things that you can do in game to improve relations.

Finally a note for those playing on Very Hard. Your relations automatically degenerate towards Abysmal (-1.0) every turn at the rate "normalise -1.0 40".

I believe this mean if you have Perfect relations with someone that your faction stand with drop by 0.05 the next turn and at a slowly decreasing rate every turn. So you should be able to stabilize this affect with a 100 fl gift every two turns.

In one of the other threads here (I think it was one referring to difficulty rating differences) someone posted something they found in one of the AI controlling files. Apparently, there is a function in the game files where if the human player is at peace with all AI factions for more than a certain number of turns, one will automatically go to war with him. If I remember correctly, it was 20 turns on easy, 10 turns on medium and 4 turns on hard/very hard. That could explain why alliances get betrayed.

Edit- Yes, it was the battlefield difficulty test results thread. Here's Bob the Insane's post on the subject:
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showp...1&postcount=13

I think it was if the AI faction in question was at peace with everyone, it was forced to declare war on the human player.

If you are at war with someone the Pope will force a truce on both sides. Usually this means the attacking armies will start moving off your territory, but any sieges and blockades already in progress are not broken for some reason (maybe an oversight, since sieges/blockades are broken when you sign a ceasefire). The game is smart enough to recognize defensive actions. You can attack any enemy army besieging your towns or fleet blockading your ports. You can also attack any enemy army you find wandering around on your own territory. You can even wander around enemy lands as long as you don't pick fights with anyone. The Pope is actually quite easy to please.

The game is also smart enough to recognize when you take advantage of (or provoke) an enemy attacking you to defeat his armies and invade his lands. You will get reputation hits for doing anything other than self-defense.

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Originally Posted by Morindin

Again this is based on their alliance power and not individual power. Check their rating, it is probably 'supreme' due to the alliances they were in, or something along those lines.

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My power is supreme, more supreme than everybody else. The only faction that's even close is the Timurids. The Mongols have been weakened considerably as well. The English were allied with neither of them. I tested toggle_fow after I beat that game already, and found out the Hungarians have conquered Novgorod and lots of Russian possessions. They have been my allies for many years. I think the Egyptians are my allies as well. Territory-wise, I'm no. 1 by a huge, huge margin and my two allies are probably in the top 5. Hungary is likely second.

The Timurids have 9 stacks and my power is stronger than theirs. There's no way the English in that game have a power rating remotely close to mine.

Diplomacy is definitely much easier early in a campaign and gets tougher late in the campaign.

I think part if this is because you gradually do deeds that screw up your global relationship, but also, it seems to degrade over time, but honestly I like the way that works, for a couple of reasons.

First, it makes the late game more challenging that you can no longer count on having safe borders on some sides. The late game in RTW could get boring, after your economy and production capcities were killing it, it was too easy to just steamroll. Now, you need to worry about being attacked from all sides late in the game, making it much more challenging.

Secondly, it's historically accurate. Think about any military conqueror, weaker nations do tend to line up and attack en mass after extended campaigning. Would Napoleon have been defeated if not for the alliance of English, Prussians, Russians, etc? It's totally logical that once a single faction is close the winning the game, the remaining factions go to war with the winning one, regardless of their relative strenghts.

There was an excellent post about this, but for the life of me I can't find it again, nor tell you who did the research in the first place :shame:

Basically, in VH difficulty, relations default to Abysmal over time if you let them be (ie you don't give money/maps/regions to get them back up all the time). In M they default to neutral, in Easy they default to Good. Of course, Abysmal relations generate completely insane diplomatic demands and suchlike.
Also, being one of the top 3 factions worsens your relations with everyone. Attacking a faction worsens your relations with every other faction sharing the same faith.

Not sure if the relation thing is factored in strategic choices by the AI though, BUT the researcher also stumbled upon a disturbing thing : if the player is not at war with anyone for a number of turns, it automatically triggers an AI attack, presumably to keep the player on his toes all the time.

The "peace length" varies with difficulty as well : in VH, 4 turns of peace with everyone triggers aggression, in Medium it's 10, in Easy 20. So it seems that, if you want to keep your direct neighbours relatively quiet and sane, you need to have a "pet war" going on somewhere (don't know if the war needs to be active or not though, that is to say, I don't know if those turns of peace are "turns without any battle" or "turns in which your faction is not at war with another". But picking a hopeless, non-Christian scapegoat and blockading one of his ports all the time seems to be working for me.)

Knowing that has conforted me in thinking that M/VH is the way to go, not VH/VH.

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Originally Posted by Kobal2fr

There was an excellent post about this, but for the life of me I can't find it again, nor tell you who did the research in the first place :shame:

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Kobal2fr, I think it was Sinan's post in the "making florins" thread and came up while discussing the effects of sacking on relations and the various global relations triggers.

Let me go find it real quick and add a link in an edit.

Is this the post?

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showp...6&postcount=22

Ah ! Found it again ! Obviously, involved campaign AI discussions were tucked in a post regarding battle mechanics. I should have known :idea2: :laugh4:

Here it is : https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=74107

I hadn't read Kraxis' reply. If he is indeed right, then bribing factions into attacking each other would be the key then... which is impossible when they are allied. So, keep borders garrisonned, then wipe out the "diplomat" species, then bribe into attacking each other... Sounds like keeping the peace might require much, much money spent on it :sweatdrop:.

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Originally Posted by Kobal2fr

Sounds like keeping the peace might require much, much money spent on it :sweatdrop:.

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That's the way it works in the real world! At least CA nailed the realism on this point. Thanks for finding that link, Kobal2fr, I missed that thread in all the others.

I currently have reputation as "trustworthy" and the factions that attacked me have consistently sued for cease fire shortly after the initial attack. I have financed a large part of my faction’s growth by asking for huge sums of indemnities. Playing as hre (h/vh), Milan has once paid me in lump sum amount of 10K. Regular tributes of 1000K per turn for 12 turns have also been common. Cease fire however was difficult to obtain at reputation level lower than reliable. To maintain the level of reputation, you cannot retaliate (as clicking on a faction to attack), but set your self up where they will attack you. And you will have to fight to win and destroy a good portion of their force. Executing their prisoners and having your relationship at abysmal with the opposing faction will not help.

Yes, you cannot attack at all or relations will plummet. Since the game is usually quite smart at other times about determining what is a defensive action, this is a puzzling omission. Surely anyone who sends an army onto another fellow's land without military access is asking for it, so why get angry when I chase them off?

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Originally Posted by dopp

Yes, you cannot attack at all or relations will plummet. Since the game is usually quite smart at other times about determining what is a defensive action, this is a puzzling omission. Surely anyone who sends an army onto another fellow's land without military access is asking for it, so why get angry when I chase them off?

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Having my emotions override my judgment, wanting to wipe Milan off the map, I actually drew first blood by laying siege to one of their cities. And to my surprise, they sent an emissary that same turn (Dijon) to ask for a cease fire. Their faction goal was "peace". I couldn’t believe it. on my next turn I sent a diplomat to France to check on my reputation and it was still “trustworthy”. Once you reach that level of reputation, it won't drop so easily as with say "reliable", where attacking neutral factions will quickly drop your rep to "mixed".

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Originally Posted by Kobal2fr

Sounds like keeping the peace might require much, much money spent on it.

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Originally Posted by Aenlic

That's the way it works in the real world! At least CA nailed the realism on this point. Thanks for finding that link, Kobal2fr, I missed that thread in all the others.

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I am finding it cheaper to be at constant war on all fronts rather than be at peace on any front. With constant war, you don't have to maintain any large garrisons at all, only enough to counter unrest. Put all your muscle in your armies. Then sack any city you conquer.

Where as if you wanted peace on a front, you must make sure all cities on that front have adequate garrisons less you look like a tempting target to your neighbor. Plus you must then send constant tribute to your neighbor less your relations deteriorate to abysmal.

Sacking of cities more than offsets the higher army cost vs. maintaining large garrisons. For those recently conquered huge cities that rebel with small garrisons, just sack em 2-3 times in a row, they soon learn not to rebel anymore.

Doesn't seem very realistic to me, having war cheaper than peace. Nor encouraging empires to wage multifront battles instead of concentrating on 1 or 2 enemies at a time.

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Originally Posted by Steinfeld

Since this was mentioned in a post above:
Is there a graph where I can view the quality of my diplomatic contacts? Currently I look these up while hovering my mousepointer over the other factions banner when in the Diplomacy menu.
So is there really a graph or did I misunderstand this??

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bumpity...

Sorry to be a pain, but so far I have not found this...

They probably want to emphasize the TOTAL WAR aspect of it. Notice how there are no GA victories in RTW onwards, only conquest victories. That "attack humie player if there's nobody else to fight" trigger is probably there to a) give human a hard time, and b) prevent AI lockup where everyone suddenly is at peace and remains that way. No Treaty of Paris in 1080, sorry.

Removed due to Hoax!!