What Roman armies do you field? (history buffs)

I'm looking for ideas on "historical" Roman army composition for EB 0.81. Playing RTR, I liked the following historical army guidelines (full stack of 20):

2 Generals (1 a Tribune)
1 equite
2 velites
2 hastati
2 principes
1 triari
1 funditore
+ 9 "allies", e.g. Italian or Gallic AOR troops

With EB 0.81, the Camillan army is rather different. You start the game with two half stacks, each comprising:

1 general
1 equites
1 levee
1 ascensi
1 hastati
1 principes
1 triari
1 rorari

I am wondering, how should I bulk them up? I am thinking of adding a second hastati and principes would get the historcial ratio of those troops to triari and make a complete half stack of 10 units. The levee and rorari unit sizes are already bigger than the hastati and principes, so maybe they are ok to leave as they are? (They will also suffer lower casualties in battle.)

For a full stack, should I then just double those 10 units? I remember Qwerty saying that the Latin allies would tend to look rather like the Romans.

Or should I add in ad hoc local troops - Samnites, mercs etc - to simulate the allies?

What do veteran Romani EB players do when trying to play in a historical way?

Also, what do people do for Roman settlement garrisons? One model would be to effectively spread a half stack (roughly one each of the Camillan unit types) across my settlements; another would to be rely on lower grade units (rorarii or local troops). Which would be more historical? I gather Rome did not have "town guard" units per se, so I suspect the former model - dispersing a legion - might be more accurate.

Try this: https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=79935 , should prove useful.

I myself use:
2 Family members
2 Hastati
2 Principe
1 Triarii
1 Velite
1 Accensii
1 Equite/or allied cavalry
2 allied/mercenary spearmen
2 allied/mercenary swordmen

For a consular army I'd probably just add one Hastati & Principe & Triarii & Velite & maybe a cavalry unit. That would be almost a full stack.

I use:

1 general
4 Hastati
4 Principes
4 Triarii
2 Equites
2 Slingers
rest is locals and mercs

sorry

For the Camillan army I just stuck with what I started with, found it to be great for gameplay. All my future legions during that era were the same. 8 unit stacks, challening battles. Adding the second hastati and principes could work, it's only 2 more units, but I preferred keeping it the way it was. I figure hey, if EB tells me this is the legion, then by Mars it must be a legion.

Once Polybian era came, things change however.

1 General
1 Allied cavalry or another general acting as Tribune
1 Hastati
1 Principes
1 Triarii
1 Velites
3 Allied infantry
1 Allied skirmisher


Pretty much like the WOTS senate model, eh econ?

Camillian
1 Legion
1 General (Deployed to right of the army. Representes the Equites Romani)
1 Leves
1 Hastati
1 Principes
1 Triarii
1 Rorarii
1 Acensii
1 Allied Cavalry (On Left hand side)
2 Allied Infantry

2 Legions

1 General
1 Tribunis Militum (Or 1 Equites Romani)
2 Hastati
2 Principes
2 Triarii
2 Rorarii
2 Acensii
1 Leves
1 Allied Cavalry
6 Allied Infantry

Polybian
1 Legion
1 General
1 Allied Cavalry
1 Velites
2 Hastati
2 Principes
1 Triarii (Seeing as there are half the number)
2 Allied Infantry

2 Legions
1 General
1 Tribunis Militum (Or 1 Equites Romani)
3 Hastati
3 Principes
3 Triarii
2 Velites
1 Allied Cavalry
6 Allied Infantry

Marian
1 Legion
1 General
4 Cohorts
2 Allied Cavalry
2 Other Allies
1 First Cohort

2 Legions
1 General
1 Tribunis Militum
2 First Cohorts
8 Cohorts
2 Allied Cavalry
6 Other Allies

I use:
Early:
General or two
2 cavalry
4 hastati
4 pricepes
2 triarii
auxilia (usually including 4 missile units)

Marian:
General or two
2 cavalry
10 legionary cohorts
2 anstisigati
auxilia

Lets see some augustan legions!

I count two units of antesignani together as one cohort, so I have one legion with 10 cohorts, 50 % of my army + auxilia. In the western part of thr roman empire each legion was accompanied by one ala, in the east by two. Thus the number of ala cav. is around 10 % of the legionaries in the west and 20 % in the east. Also a large number of the imperial army's own archer units was stationed along the eastern border and the client states there fielded large archer contigents to support the roman regular's.

Augustan
west:
1 general
8 legionary cohorts
1 first cohort
2 Antesignani
2 Ala
+various auxilia, regionals, artillery, eastern archer auxilia in a well prepraed campaign

east:
1 general
8 legionary cohorts
1 first cohort
2 Antesignani
4 Ala
3 archer auxilia and/or regional archers
+ artillery, regional cav., auxiliary infantry (or more of them instead of antesignani or some leg. cohorts)

So far I've only managed to reach Polybian once, so I'll use my early army makeup.

2 Equite Consulares, 4 Equites, 4 Hastati, 4 Principes, 2 Triarii, 2 Leves, 2 Accensi. Usually as I conquer further I start creating 'alae' using local troops leavened with some Roman ones that fill the gaps. For example in Gaul I would use akontistai in place of leves, and sotaroas in place of accensi. Also, most of the time I would use Mori Gaesum to replace my triarii. Only the hastati and principes would be retained, and the equites would be reduced to 2 with the other two replaced by local cavalry. In greece these would be mercenary thessalikoi, since greek hippeis are even more hopeless than equites romani. Sometimes if I am forced to march before my alae are completed, I will fill the gaps with enoci and golberi curoas, depending on availability, though my personal preference is golberi curoas.

Yup that's it.

My Camillian looks like so:

2 leves
2 hastati
2 principes
1 triarii
4 allied infantry units, which type depends on where i am fighting.
1 Roman cavalry
1 allied cavalry, again depending on where i am fighting
1 rorari
1 accensi
1 general.

Polybian:

2 velites
2 hastati
2 principes
1 triarii
4 allied infantry units
1 Roman cavalry
1 allied cavalry
1 general

My Marian will look like this: 20 unit stacks, since my empire will be very large by this time and each stack may need to fight several battles before getting a chance to rest and retrain.

1 general
2 cavalry, one Roman, one other
4 spear armed auxiliary infantry for the flanks
2 archer/slinger units
9 regular cohorts
2 re-enlisted veterans

As for Augustan... Probably the same as above, except replace the regular cohorts with hard as nails, lorica segmentata wearing badass mofo's, replace the Roman cavalry with Germanic heavy cavalry, if the mod allows me to recruit any such cavalry, and trim down the legion size since my units would be so powerful.

WE DON'T HAVE LORICA SEGMENTATA IN EB

How many times MUST I say this?

Augustan legions became smaller? I dont see 9 cohorts and 1 first cohort...

comon! Augustan are quite possibly the most un used legions in the game

Antesignani are legionaries too. Two of our Antesignani unit have roughly the same number of men than one of our ordinary legionary cohort units. So 1 first cohort + 8 leg. cohorts + 2 Antesignani are one 10 cohorts legion.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by K COSSACK

Augustan legions became smaller? I dont see 9 cohorts and 1 first cohort...

comon! Augustan are quite possibly the most un used legions in the game

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No they didn't. In fact I believe that they became a bit larger, still only 10 cohorts though. Dayve said what he did because he would have less men to ensure game balance.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Wigferth Ironwall

WE DON'T HAVE LORICA SEGMENTATA IN EB

How many times MUST I say this?

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You need say it only once, and in a polite manner. I never knew because i never bothered to look.

Anyway, i said i would make the Augustan ones smaller because i'm sure the Augustan units are extremely tough... No point in fighting battles if you are ensured a win every time.

Roman legions were not invincible, and making them smaller would not only be VERY difficult (trust me, I tried the 10 stack army)

It will be very annoying considering your best option is to defend rather than attack. Cavalry can make all the difference and if your army is overwhelmed... you know, you lose.:furious3:



http://NAVASTALOSA

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dayve

You need say it only once, and in a polite manner. I never knew because i never bothered to look.

Anyway, i said i would make the Augustan ones smaller because i'm sure the Augustan units are extremely tough... No point in fighting battles if you are ensured a win every time.

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No, I have to say it every other week and my patience is wearing thin.

However, for your information: There are not, and never will be, Lorica Segmentata legions in EB. This is because A) LS sucks when you're on campaign and B) Because the absolute earliest find, ever was 9BC.

WAIT!

This is how flame wars start

This thread will be locked and we will have to start all over again.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Wigferth Ironwall

No, I have to say it every other week and my patience is wearing thin.

---

Calm down, please. Not everyone reads every thread.

I'm confused by all the formations listed above. Why are people only using 1or 2 units of hastati/principes.......Why short change yourself and not use army's primarily composed of hastati/principes/triarii?

Sure you can suppliment a few regional units, but army's with 1 unit of hastati?? Doesn't make sense to me.

BTW, great site....first post!

EDIT:

Oh and here is a link I couldn't attach because it was my first post:

This link describes how roman army's were formed in 4th century BC:

http://www.roman-empire.net/army/army.html

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Makr

I'm confused by all the formations listed above. Why are people only using 1or 2 units of hastati/principes.......Why short change yourself and not use army's primarily composed of hastati/principes/triarii?

Sure you can suppliment a few regional units, but army's with 1 unit of hastati?? Doesn't make sense to me.

BTW, great site....first post!

EDIT:

Oh and here is a link I couldn't attach because it was my first post:

This link describes how roman army's were formed in 4th century BC:

http://www.roman-empire.net/army/army.html

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It's more for the challenge than anything else. I use two hastati and two principes, 1 triarii. I use 4 allied infantry units, which gives me a front and second line of 4 units, which is more than enough to defeat anything that i come across, 9 times out of 10.

However i agree, 10 unit stacks, and only 1 unit of hastati and principes is in my opinion ludicrous.

Half stack Roman armies (10 unit strong) are serving me well so far (250 BC), although admittedly I've only being fighting rebels and Gauls. Even on VH campaigns, I'm not seeing many AI full stacks. But based on previous versions of EB, I am not convinced my half-stacks would survive campaigning in Greece/Macedon.

I'm using pure Romans for the main part - the starting stacks, bulked up by one principes and one hastati. They make a very versatile force. I am discouraged from using allies/mercs because their upkeep is higher than that of higher quality Romans. I was forced to recruit a stack of mercs in Massilia, when an unexpected inflow of slaves led to loyalty problems.

I just had a wonderful siege defence in Gergovia. My faction leader had snatched the settlement with a below strength army of 500 but was then besiged by 1500 Gauls. I was nervous to begin with, as my impression is that the Roman-Gaul contest in EB is less imbalanced than in RTR (the Roman-Greek/Macedon one certainly is). As it turned out, a line of 60 triari held the entrance to the town square against almost all the Gauls in a Thermopolyae remake. I think they could have stayed there all through the battle - the Gauls barely dented them. Eventually, I took out the enemy flankers and used my cav to rear charge the mass bearing down on the triari. They broke easily - I think because they were exhausted. (I did intend to turn off fatigue, as I think it really nerfs the AI but changed the wrong preferences.)

I suppose using only two hastati, two principes, 1 triarii and and the leves, rorari and accensi would be fine against Gauls, where you can just line them up and put them on defense mode, but what when you face a full stack of Greeks or Mekedonians? Which you will, because in my campaign they have several full stacks, good units too... Pezhetaroi and such. How are you going to flank those units so that two units are fighting them for about 4 or 5 minutes until they tire and become at least shaken, ready for a cavalry charge?

There's nothing historical about making your armies so small that you put yourself at a disadvantage. Give your stack an extra 4 units from 10, so 14, and you have a sizeable enough army to defeat most others, but you'll have to use some skill to do it. I've lost 3 battles to Germania now, one of them was with my most experiences legion, being led by my rising star faction heir's son, who was also killed at just 23!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dayve

I've lost 3 battles to Germania now, one of them was with my most experiences legion, being led by my rising star faction heir's son, who was also killed at just 23!

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Sorry about your luck man, but that's awesome! I love hearing about people losing battles.....makes the game that much more interesting :yes:

Meh, I can't even imagine playing with anything other than the 10 unit stack model. Sure, you could even the odds with a larger stack, but that's kind of the point of not having a large stack. The AI needs help, not even odds. It's pretty much not fun when you have a full stack. You know you're never gonna' lose, especially on Medium. At least with smaller stacks, it's more of a gamble.

So far, since the beginning of the Gallic wars, I've had 2 out of 5 legions completely destroyed, and the other 2-3 heavily depleted, constantly reinforcing and resting sort of thing. I lost four major battles. Hell, only counting major battles (not easy sieges or small skirmishes) my record against the Gauls these past 7 years stands at 4-4. I've lost two generals along with the two legions destroyed. The Gauls have made it very difficult for me. I had to give up Gergovia soon after capturing it, just get my legion and retreat to Massalia because they were sending a huge host to retake it, and I had just suffered my first crushing defeat across the hills to the west, not to mention lost my faction leader's brother, a devastating time.

Anyhoo, it's been a fun war..... that feels wrong saying doesn't it? I've been wanting to start up an AAR just chronicling this specific war... hmm....

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Wonderland

Meh, I can't even imagine playing with anything other than the 10 unit stack model. Sure, you could even the odds with a larger stack, but that's kind of the point of not having a large stack. The AI needs help, not even odds. It's pretty much not fun when you have a full stack. You know you're never gonna' lose, especially on Medium. At least with smaller stacks, it's more of a gamble.

So far, since the beginning of the Gallic wars, I've had 2 out of 5 legions completely destroyed, and the other 2-3 heavily depleted, constantly reinforcing and resting sort of thing. I lost four major battles. Hell, only counting major battles (not easy sieges or small skirmishes) my record against the Gauls these past 7 years stands at 4-4. I've lost two generals along with the two legions destroyed. The Gauls have made it very difficult for me. I had to give up Gergovia soon after capturing it, just get my legion and retreat to Massalia because they were sending a huge host to retake it, and I had just suffered my first crushing defeat across the hills to the west, not to mention lost my faction leader's brother, a devastating time.

Anyhoo, it's been a fun war..... that feels wrong saying doesn't it? I've been wanting to start up an AAR just chronicling this specific war... hmm....

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Nooo!

Spare yourself the shame of losing 2 legions along with the legates!

I fight with 17-20 unit legions and I have to admit, I've only lost two battles when fielding one of these legions. But I have also fought battles where it was my 18 units versus 40 enemy units. These battles were close and I would have been crushed if I didn't have 18 units.

The AI throws about 40 units at me every three turns or so, making it difficult to deal with even with huge legions. Epic difficult battles are great, I just don't have the time to fight them every battle I fight.

I have respect for those who fight with 10 unit legions, I just don't have the time and patience to do that.

I'm just lucky my computer doesn't have the stats to allow all enemies on the field when they attack me with more than 40 units. :sweatdrop:

I usually go around with a full 20 unit army because thats what all my enemies do...twice. I sent a 10 unit force into Massilia;2 hastati, 2 principes, 1 triarii, general, equites romani, pedites extraodinarii and a couple of local mercs and as soon as they walk in they are met by an aedui full stack, reinforced by the 6 or 7 units they had beseiging my small force in Massilia. On clicking start battle i found that they had 5 units of Gesaetae, 6 of Bataroas and a good few line spearmen.
After this, I now use:

general
equites romani
equites extraordinarii
4 Hastati
4 Principes
2 Triarii
2 Pedites Extraordinarii
2 Velites
and the others local mercs
toatilling 20 units...

I am now beseiged in a gallic town I sacked to resupply by a 20 unit army that immediately beseiged me after i resisted the 20 unit army with a full 4 units of gaesatae by slaughtering them all. After the first battle i lost 500...I am now worried.
Oh and the Sweboz send a full stack down throughg the mountains every few turns to attack Patavium.
And its stil 214 b.c.:beam:

The problem is not the legions a Roman player fields - but rather the legions that the AI Roman fields!

Playing as Carthage, it seems to me that the AI builds stacks of armies based around triarii and cheap "barbarian" units from Cisalpine Gaul.

These Roman "legions" are easy to kill and very ahistoric. Are others finding this problem too?

H.

They aren't only Romans then. They probably are Roman "allies" (that's what type4 and sometimes type3 govts techincally are, even if the RTW system doesn't understand that. (hmmmmm)). If you are fighting those armies of Gauls with some Romans mixed in, the roleplaying element can really help here too - as they are probably coming from a Roman allied territory/city, maybe with the help of a few Roman "advisors" or serving as a core of the whole enemy army.

I only use half-stack legions unless theres national crisis...

1 General,
2 hasati
2 Principes
1 Triarii
1 Equites Romani
1 Roarii(sp?) OR local troup
1 Missile, either of local or Roman
1 Local Auxiliaries.


Though I haven't gone awefully to far into Roman campaigns, (stoped by fustration, new EB releases, and computers breaking down.) I find this works well for my uses and I can destroy most enemies using typical formation. (don't feel like spelling it). Its makes battles challenging and saves money for the most part. Though it does fail me sometimes, like the time during the invasion of Carthage when Hanno(full stack) and another Carthaginian Half stack came upon me and the stack lead by Hanno took on my legion in the area, while the smaller half stack went against recently captured Kart-Hadast... The legion was slaughtered to the last.

The RTR guide seems to really simplify it, 1 half Roman 1 half ally right?

So

1.general
2.cavalry

1.skirmisher
2.hastati
3.principe
4.triarii

And ally troops of the same number

Trying to stick to the following composition. Playing on H/M with RTW 1.5. Using EB v0.81a.

Camillan

The following units are REQUIRED for a legion:
1 General (must be at least 30 and must retire at 60)
1 Assensi (may be any slinger or archer unit)
1 Leves (may be any javelin based skirmisher unit)
1 Rorari
1 Hastati
1 Principle
1 Triari
1 Equite (any type)

Optional units recruited to a Camillan unit based on need:
1 Tribune (must be at least 20)
Allied Unit
Allied Unit
Equite (any type)
Allied or Merc Unit
Allied or Merc Unit

Max 14 units for a Normal Legion **Does not count garrison troops temporarily attached to my legions. They must be held in reserve, only to be used if the line is breaking and no other units are able to help.**

I allow my Faction Leader, Consular, and Ex Consular led legions to have 20 units. Unit composition is same as above but allowed the optional addition of:
1 Assensi (may be any slinger or archer unit)
1 Leves (may be any javelin based skirmisher unit)
1 Rorari
1 Hastati
1 Principle
Equite (any type)

Don't know what I am going to do for Polybian. Haven't got that far yet.

I use the DBA format and go with 12 unit stacks:

2 Velites/Leves
3 Hastati
3 Principes
2 Triarii
1 Equites
1 General

I make the assumption that latin Allies fight in the Roman manner, and that the Accensi and Rorari are camp followers or servants and don't field them in open battle, though I do garrison the odd city with them.

. . . . . . . . . . . .Velites. . . . . . . .Velites.
. . . . . .Hastati. . . . . . .Hastati. . . . . . . .Hastati.
. . . . . . . . . . .Principes. . . . . . .Principes.
. . . . . .Triarii. . . . . . . .Principes. . . . . . .Triarii.
Equites. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .General.

Until I was forced to delete my Roman campaign this morning due to an error where I was stuck in year 199 B.C., when after six attempts in 11 hours I would press the turn button to advance a few months, only for the damn game to inexplicably switch itself off:furious3: :wall: . My Polybian army list would often include:

1 General
1 Tribune
2/4 Cavalry (Equites Romani, Equites Extraordinarii, Gallic horse, Mistrophorioi Hippeis are optional).
3 Triarii
3 Princepes
3 Haststi
2 Alae Pedites/Samnites or otherwise.
2 Velites
2 Toxotoi from Taras, Sicilia or the Greek client states.

My possible army after the Marian Reforms:

1 Legate
1 Tribune
1 Legio Equites ( if available. Failing that, just the tribune).
1 First Cohort ( if available. Failing that, a cohors evocata).
9 Legionary Cohorts.
2/4 Equites Auxilia
2/4 Pedites Auxilia/mercenaries
2 Saggitarii
And maybe some artillery as well.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Legio X

Trying to stick to the following composition. Playing on H/M with RTW 1.5. Using EB v0.81a.

Camillan

The following units are REQUIRED for a legion:
1 General (must be at least 30 and must retire at 60)
1 Assensi (may be any slinger or archer unit)
1 Leves (may be any javelin based skirmisher unit)
1 Rorari
1 Hastati
1 Principle
1 Triari
1 Equite (any type)

Optional units recruited to a Camillan unit based on need:
1 Tribune (must be at least 20)
Allied Unit
Allied Unit
Equite (any type)
Allied or Merc Unit
Allied or Merc Unit

Max 14 units for a Normal Legion **Does not count garrison troops temporarily attached to my legions. They must be held in reserve, only to be used if the line is breaking and no other units are able to help.**

I allow my Faction Leader, Consular, and Ex Consular led legions to have 20 units. Unit composition is same as above but allowed the optional addition of:
1 Assensi (may be any slinger or archer unit)
1 Leves (may be any javelin based skirmisher unit)
1 Rorari
1 Hastati
1 Principle
Equite (any type)

Don't know what I am going to do for Polybian. Haven't got that far yet.

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That about what I use. I follow the RTR guide and it works great for the roll player in me. Only 30+ to command or govern, retire at 60+ and Tribune at 20+ and all that good stuff....would it be taboo to link the RTR guide here? :embarassed:

Someone (or maybe me or some other Roman dude) should make a role-play/historical guide for EB I suppose. one of you enterprising fans could opt for it :)

for one legion you should have equal numbers of hastati, principes, and triarii. Since an actual legion consisted of 10 maniples of each, Id use maybe 2x of each to represent that, that way its still feasible to have two-legion consular armies, plus your two alae of socii and your general.

**Oh, and in other news, expect a Romani preview at some point in the near future :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Zaknafien

**Oh, and in other news, expect a Romani preview at some point in the near future :)

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Awesome!

Based on discussions about what troops represent what, I will now go for-

Camillan Consular Army
2 Leves
4 Hastati
4 Principis
4 Triarii
1-2 Equites (Socii/Latins)
1 Family member (Roman Equites)
1 Family member as Consul

Polybian Consular Army
3 Velites
4 Hastati
4 Principis
2-3 Trairii
1-2 Equites (Socii/Latins)
1 Family member (Roman Equites)
1 Family member as Consul

Cheers,

Quilts