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Which unit do you think makes the biggest difference between victory and defeat?
My own top choice are Mercenary Crossbowmen, they are the first units I purchase in any campaign I can get hold of them in and I hire just about every unit I come across during play. They completely outclass most of the early archer units and mean that early seiges just become a case of 'shooting fish in a barrel' or more accurately 'spearmen in a town square'.
It probably varies depending on faction. Merc crossbowmen for a western faction is a good choice; it's probably the first missile unit with long range you'd have access to. Musketeers are another for the factions that get them. All forms of horse archers for the eastern factions.
This varies widely by faction...for the major European factions I suggest the following:
England: Longbowmen...they litterally own anything within range and are amazing when placed upon a wall
France: Feudal knights...nuff said...without these Milan will simply march to Paris
Milan: Pavise crossbows...this is how you deal with France's Feudals
Spain: Jinetes...early in the game you have to know how to deal with Moors...
HRE: Gothic Knights...the shock & awe of pre-Renaissance Europe
Venice: again, the crossbows...
Russia: yet to find a critical unit for this faction...
Byzantium: anything riding a horse and holding a bow...
Just my 2 cents, but there it is...
Boyar Sons. While not critical to the Russians, those Javelins can wreck absolute havoc on infantry.Quote:
Originally Posted by Frederick_I_Barbarossa
for me once i get to recruit pikes or halberdiers the game kicks in overdrive as well as when gunpowder artillery becomes available
The turks: Janissary Heavy Infantry. Once you get them, you can happily abandon your old horsey ways, and crush anything in your way.
Nothing changes battles like heavy cav.
In particular the General's Bodyguard, and even more so if you're talking about one of those 10 dread Mongol general's bodyguards.
Those boys sure make a difference when your whole army screams and runs away from them.
Boyars Son's in a nice compact formation plus [HOLD FORMATION] in a narrow city street take Mongol Heavy cavalry down without too much trouble. I suspect any decent heavy infantry or even armoured spearmen would do the same.Quote:
Originally Posted by dismal
Catholic peasants! In the vanilla game, if in sufficient numbers, they own everything.
Not really. I tried something in M2TW recently that I used to do in MTW:
1 General's bodyguard vs a stack of 20 peasants in custom game.
In MTW, the general would usually end up dead but in M2TW, I managed to beat the peasants each time with about 3-7 bodyguards including general left out of 17.
I bet, you did it on a flat map with no ostacles to your cavalry charges ;) Try it on a map with varied terrain.
Yep, grassy plain on VH. But it would be easier on varied terrain as I could just easily get all the peasants down to exhausted by having them walk hills and then charge them even more easily.
Polish Nobles are pretty useful for the Polish, being pretty OK in melee and carrying around those handy javelins, and available from almost all the castles. I simply love to take on almost any kind of an European army with these guys, HAs are still a problem.
I must agree with Didz with the merc crossbows, they give a huge advantage especially if the enemy won't try to counterattack when he's defending.
And of course, as dismal pointed out, ANY heavy cavalry makes it dirt easy to wipe the AI off the field, especially with a decent enough spear line and a few missiles to keep the HAs at bay.
If you play all the battles, Italians don't even really need castles, as Cavalry militia/Broken Lancers (at least the Venetians, dunno about the others, still a bit new to the game) and their militia spears combined with pavisare form a decent force. The bells are a bother to move, but not bad and add to the feel of the armies. In sieges, heavy inf doesn't hurt though, and everyone loves the variation castles give (I love those Venetian Archers, even if they never get the chance to flank...). Off topic, I know, but I tend to ramble at times.
Highly teched armies can be problematic to replenish if you move quickly, but this is not as big a problem as it could be in Rome. This would suggest that good quality basic troops make the difference.
For Papal States I'd give the nod to Pavise Crossbow men and Swiss Guards. Combine those two and throw in some artillery and nothing will stop you.
But for the main factions I'd say the mercenary crossbow men and spearmen of Western Europe are a godsend in the early years. They are usually better than starting units.
i find the game to really turn in my favor when at the first of the game i pick an empty settlement and bring down the shell and type vindaloo in 20 times:elephant:
i think those bloody elephants are the most battle changing unit as if you are not prepared for them they are almost unstoppable, or the naffatun (sp?) can turn the tide of a battle when used strategically.
Well, yeah, elephants almost belong in a different category. When they're on the field it changes everything.Quote:
Originally Posted by Specky the Mad
Going back to the OP, I must say, I don't see merc crossbows as a dominant unit at all. Ranged units (on foot) in general have trouble dominating anything that is not willing to stand still and be shot.
If I was going to pick a ranged foot unit that can really turn battles and win shocking victories it would be the Cossack Musketeers. A few units of those on a hill can beat armies many times their size due to their range and fear factor. They are also decent enough infantry to be left off skirmish.
I guess I'd pick generals bodyguards - cavalry is very powerful in M2TW. The only downside is its fragility, but the 2HP/regenerating properties of bodyguards overcomes this.
Of the regular troops, playing England (or HRE) I fixate on armoured swordsmen (or DFK). They are very valuable in dealing with the mass of spearmen the AI often fields and are almost required in sieges to cope with their AI equivalents. Behind stakes, backed by longbows, they can take on most comers.
Well the original idea of this thread was units that make a difference NOT units which dominate.Quote:
Originally Posted by dismal
The point about the Mercenary Crossbow's is that they are available for hire right from turn 1 and out range any other missile unit in the game at that time.
Thus, if purchased immediately they give your army a distinct advantage both in attack, defence, seige and assault which doesn't get neutralised by better units for some considerable time.
In fact. in my Russian campaign I was still fielding Mercenary Crossbowmen alongside my Dismounted Davor in preference to peasant archers.
Therefore, whilst they are not the most powerful unit in the game they do make a big difference particularly in the opening few turns of the game when rapid and relatively cheap expansion is needed.
What is clear from some of the other posts is that many players measure a units value by its individual performance on the open feild of battle. Certainly 2nd and 3rd generation cavalry and infantry will dominate in such situations. But my love of the Mercenary Crossbow unit is in the edge it gives me over my AI opponents in a wide range of situations and as part of an army rather than a single unit. All other things being equal they give my army the decisive advantage, particularly as their longer range forces the AI army to either stand and die or attack me on the ground I have chosen to defend.
I'd go with mercenary crossbowmen and then mercenary spearmen. They really make a huge difference early on.
Your original question was:Quote:
Originally Posted by Didz
Which unit do you think makes the biggest difference between victory and defeat?
I assumed you were talking about which unit affects the outcome of individual battles the most.
Which unit, if present and well-used, is more likely to make the difference between defeat and victory in a given battle.
Ranged foot units are usually role players to me. Their presence and use doesn't often dramatically change the outcome of battles versus some other unit.
It's hard for me to imagine too many situations where I'd prefer one more Merc Crossbow to one more General's Bodyguard if given a choice...
Well, this is a good role for them, but how many defensive field battles do you fight? And you don't need to outrange or out missile the enemy to induce him to attack you on favorable ground, as attacker he must attack you where you set up or lose. Granted, outranging/outmissiling the AI does prevent him from walking up and plinking away at you. But this should simply induce the AI to attack you quickly.Quote:
But my love of the Mercenary Crossbow unit is in the edge it gives me over my AI opponents in a wide range of situations and as part of an army rather than a single unit. All other things being equal they give my army the decisive advantage, particularly as their longer range forces the AI army to either stand and die or attack me on the ground I have chosen to defend.
The key point is, even in this scenario, you're going to need some other units to actually fight the battle (assuming the enemy does not choose to stand and be shot.)
If the AI behaves appropriately, your foot xbows won't get off more than a shot or two before they're skirmishing away and leaving the decisive part of the battle to someone else. I'd usually rather have more of the someone else.
If a Catholic faction, yes, Mercenary Crossbowmen are great indeed. But let me tell you something about Reiters... Oh. My. God. :jawdrop:
I absolutely love them, after I discovered they shoot when charging. The combined effect of a cavalry charge and a pistol volley seems impossible to bear by opponents. Usually they rout immediately after impact, and it works against most enemies if charged in flank or back (especially, of course, against light troops).
It's now my first HRE campaign and I trained a couple of Reiters just for fun, not really needing at that point any uber-late-period units to win any battle anymore.
I didn't know about that charge-shoot combo at the beginning, so I just deployed my Reiters in the flank of some Moors spear militia, planning to soft them up with pistol fire. The incredible short range was really disappointing (the previous campaign was as Turks, imagine using static Reiters after Janisary Musketeers).
Then, bored, I redeployed my Reiters and tried to use them as usual cavalry - charge, retreat, charge again. WOW! they charged shooting at point-blank on target and all those (surviving) pesky militias routed!
I'm pretty amazed. Use a high-valour general with 3/4 Reiters and you won't lose anything anymore... :bow:
In that case it was my bad.Quote:
Originally Posted by dismal
What I meant to ask was which unit do you think makes the biggest difference in to your chances of winning the campaign.
Some may still feel it is the super-heavy battlefield units but I feel that in my case it is definately the mercenary crossbowman. That probably also has a lot to do with playing style as I tend to avoid open battle and concentrate on seiges, so cavalry tend to be a low priority in my armies.
Well,
Just taking on the faction i am playing at the moment - Egypt - I would say Mamluk archers - you can use them early on, they are a fast, good missile unit and once enemy units are weakened, can easily finish them off hand to hand. In terms of adding a winning dynamic to my Saracen armies, these guys make the most impact.
Often as not they can strip out enemy cavalry units, break up infantry formations and take advantageous ground early on.
BTW: just to avoid any misunderstanding I am quite happy for you guys to discuss the what you consider to be the most dominant battlefield unit in this thread. I was merely responding to Dismal's comment that mercenary crossbowmen aren't by explaining that that was not why I named them as my nominated unit.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mad cat mech
And what does that do?
(my first post here)
Javelin cavalry, especially Polish Nobles with their respectable melee skills.
Volleys of armor-piercing javelins to the flank of the enemy general's bodyguard have won me more battles than I can count. Since the jav cav usually ends up behind the enemy's main line on these assassination runs, a charge to their rear follows naturally and a rout is practically assured.
give it a shot and find out. 8)
:hmg: :hmg: :hmg: :hmg:
:elephant: :elephant: :elephant: :elephant::elephant: :elephant: :elephant: :elephant: :elephant: :elephant: :elephant: :elephant:
Dis. Dvor and Dis. Boyar Sons are great
VindalooQuote:
Originally Posted by mad cat mech
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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For the song by Fat Les, see Vindaloo (song)
Vindaloo also called Vindalho is a popular Indian dish. It was first brought to Goa by the Portuguese and soon became a pleasing Goan meal often served during very special occasions. Historically this was a pork dish cooked with plenty of wine vinegar and garlic, known in Portuguese as Vinha d'Alho (from "vinha" wine vinegar and "alho" garlic), but it soon received the Goan treatment of adding plentiful amounts of spice and chili. Restaurants often serve this dish with chicken or lamb sometimes mixed with potatoes. Traditional vindaloos do not include potatoes, the discrepancy arising because the word "aloo" means "potato" in Hindi.
Authentic Goan Vindaloo. Goans scoff at the usage of any other main ingredient besides pork in Vindaloo. The authentic taste of vindaloo comes from a unique blend of the fat in the pork, the garlic, vinegar, and the chilli (specifically the Kashmiri chilli, which is very flavorful yet not too pungent). In addition, traditional Vindaloo is not a curry but more of a dry sauce based dish, that taste better as it ages. Chicken Vindaloo and Cauliflower Vindaloo would make most Goans reel with shock.
The dish has gained popularity in Britain, and has become a common fixture at Indian restaurants and curry houses. In colloquial English it is often referred to as a "Vindy" and is well known for its heat, being one of the hotter curries available. The popularity of the dish even inspired an English football song for the 1998 World Cup.
Your soldiers don't go hungry anymore?
I hadnt tried it but from looking at his emoticons I thought maybe it gave the player those Panzerphants the Timurids get. :inquisitive:
elephant rocketeers dudes.
well i love ottoman infantry as i am an infantry lover and love the fact that before i charge into the fray i can weaken sections of the opposing line with missiles.
but for catholic factions i use alot of mailed knights i find all sorts of uses for them like flanking, taking out approaching artillery, keeping missile cav. away, and pursuing.
Dismounted Gothic and Imperial Knights. Stats looked a little bit suspect at first, but they've been ferocious in battle. Last seige my DGK killed 100+ men and lost 10.
Any of the mounted knights. I've got Feudal Knights spread well throughout my empire now and they turn the tide of battle every time. Last battle my valour 3 FKs wiped out a full unit of Urban Militia in one charge.
This is playing Lands to Conquer 2.1
What about the dismounted crusader knights or what are they called? They have excellent stats and are dead cheap (I believe 170!) You can hire them around Jerusalem, Acre and Antioch, and maybe some other places.
They are called Unhorsed Knights.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobo
In my experience horse archers with the fast-moving stat. Since I have to make a choice I'd say Cossack Cavalry. The have the fast moving trait and good stanima.
They can beat just about anything if used right. They're also the only Russian unit I'd class as medium cavalry.
The absoulute best use is for fighting thosse knucled headed armour loving catholics to the west. Lol. But they hold up decent to the horde and more eastren armies to.
Siege weapons!
I have a habit of stealing settlements from the enemy and then letting them break their armies on assault. A ballista or catapult set facing the road down to the gate causes a healthy amount of havoc, and can occasionally engage siege towers too. As for bridge defences - it probably amounts to cheating, but there's something amusing about having a single catapult unit rack up 500 odd kills. Armoured sergeants and catapults are the basis of my defense of Outremer from those nasty Turks/Egyptians/Mongols.