I bin defeated. Horribly. For the first time ever... And the AI made smart moves.

I'm amazed. Somebody slap me, i must be dreaming. I just fought in Sicily, as Rome, against Carthage, with inferior troops save for 2 units of hired mercenary phalangites....

A full legion, on huge unit settings... 4 hastati, 4 principes, 2 triarii, 2 leves, 2 rorari, 2 accensi, 2 equittes, a general with great manegerial skills, massive influence, no good command traits but no bad ones either, and plenty of battle helping retinues like armorer and chirugeon...

Versus some Carthage crap units, skirmishers, cheap spearmen, 2 units of light cavalry and the two hired mercenaries with a 2 star general...

I attacked, they deployed on a hill, i had no choice but to march up the hill and attack them, they refused to be drawn down the hill by my slinger fire... The battle began, and for two hours it raged... Roughly 2700 of my men, versus about 1800 of theirs... I began by sending my hastati to fight the mercenary units which made up their first line, they quickly turned and ran after the skirmishers threw a few javelins at them. I sent in the principes, they fought for an hour alone with massive casualties, but inflicting almost none upon the phalanx... Their peltastai constantly attacked the flanks of my principes just as they began to envelope the phalanxes, and eventually the principes routed... I sent in the leves and rorari to hold the line as i rallied the cowards and formed them up once more. I attacked with a line of hastati and principes, but as before, they were beaten back by peltastai and thureopheoerieopiroeir attacking their flanks.

I recieved no opportunities to use my cavalry effectively, their flanks and rear were always protected by cheap spearmen units and a very nasty generals bodyguard of heavy cavalry with 60-odd men and quite a bit of experience that i really did NOT want to engage until i absolutely had to... I rallied everything i could and formed a long line, hoping to eventually be able to encircle some of their army and thin out their numbers.. The triarii went in, head on against the mercenary hoplites, they fought hard and for about 30 minutes while the rallied units attacked the skirmishers defending their flanks, eventually i made a breakthrough on the left... A chance to send in my cavalry and break the left flank! I sent them in, 200 equittes, charged the read of one of the phalanxes, only to have my cavalry encircled by fresh spearmen and a unit of medium cvalry and promptly slaughtered and routed... I managed to route their cavalry with my spearmen and continued to hammer away at the flank, then... Disaster... They committed their fresh spearmen and peltastai and attacked my line of reserves, which were depleted and tired units of accensi and leves, they were promptly slaughtered, their general attacked mine and their superior heavy cavalry beat his bodyguard down to nothing until he fled the battlefield, leaving the last two units still holding up, the triarii, to be encircled and slaughtered.

The end results? 2500 dead Romans, less than 1000 dead Cartheginians, an entire legion destroyed save for a few ragtag men, (Like 100 or so) that made it back to Messana. My legion in the north busy defending against the Aediu, a new one will have to be raised which will take 5 turns to make, 2 to form up and 3 to get to Sicily... Then the AI let itself down by laying siege to rebel Syracuse with their now experienced army and general, rather than attacking Messana that was defended by only a shamed general who fled from battle, 100 or so men from hastati/principe units, and a full unit of leves... It would have been a pushover, but alas, the legion is raised and ready.

CARTHAGO DELENDA EST! :thumbsdown:

Sounds like a good battle. Pity we don't see more like that. I would give anything for better AI.

Hannibal ad portas! :2thumbsup:

Good AAR mate. Carthaginiensis are always cunning at art of strategy. They're worthy and honoroble foes in battle. They have a great unit roster. Very balanced phalanx and melee units plus good cavalry.

Besides, EB is like an delicious bottle of wine for me. Time passes but EB never lose its taste.

Wow! That was great! Go AI!

I've had some recent things like this as well, but you'll have to read my AAr to find out about those :wink:. At least Book 2.

They've actually done it... They've taken Messana, and the general that fled from the battle died in the process... They were too late though, my legion laid siege the very same turn they took the city, and unless they have something up their sleeves that i haven't seen, which is quite possible as my spy in the area was captured and killed, then their dreams of a white Sicily will never be realised... Sicily will be RED!

Caius Aurelius Cotta, though, the shamed general who fled from battle but redeemed his honour by fighting to the death in the cities center, has left behind 3 sons... 13, 9 and 2... Damn, this would be a great storyline for a proper AAR with pictures and stuff... Caius's three sons, gods bidding, shall grow up with a healthy hatred of the Cartheginians, and in time will conquer Carthage... (Or die trying like their father LOL!)

On a completely different note, i got a family member whose last name is Damian, which is my first name... Just found it funny, dunno why. I've decided to give him the legion to take back Messana, then the rest of Sicily... He has a son named Julius Helvetius Damian, 1 year old... I've decided he shall conquer Greece when the time comes, and hopefully he will also have sons and i can see for how long i can carry on my name in the game. :smash:

Roma victor!

Nice...although you could have forced them of the hill by splitting and attacking from two directions. The AI will usually try to maneuver to cover both directions but if your careful with your maneuver you can make them retreat. I think you should have sent both your equites to engage the enemy general using your general to delay spear units.

Btw, I find it very strange that Hastati actually fled before the lines joined. Are you playing on VH? what was your supply status?

You're playing on M/VH right? Sweet story though. I've had my valiant last stands too.

Ok here goes a counter... not AAR but status report.

When my roman troops started expanding to sicily, carthage declared war.
They didn't bother me at all while I took Messana and Syracuse, and only after this last one was taken did they apear. 2 Lousy units next to my near-empty Messana.

So I split my army (I hadn't learned this Legions ting yet) and send half to take care of those 2 units, wich is done with almost no loses.

At that turn, a big carthaginian army lead by their heir sieges Syracuse.

I bring the 1/2 army back, atack and they retreat. I don't persue, although they're realy close, and go back to syracuse where my man take some rest and we establish some sort of local government.

...and the faction heir just sits there for some 5 turns, nex to my clearly superior army. When I finaly decide to take him on, he retreats...2 steps. The battle itself was slaughter, and I didn't have to do much really, Just sent my various troops agaist his and they quickly routed.

After that, I sent my general alone to plant a tower and he gets ambushed... by 7 elephants!! :oops:
He charges head on, and they route. :sweatdrop:

At the same time, my spy in... that rather developed eleutheroi city south of galia I can't remember the name of, spots a full-flag carthagnian army coming from Iberia.
I was very amazed and pleased that Carthage's AI would try to replicate Hannibal's strike I confess.
...that is, until 10 turns had passed and that army moved to no-where, ocasionaly going back to an eleutheroi town in iberia, not sieging, etc etc...

Overall, I'm prety depressed with the shody work the whites have done.




Celtic eleutheroi on the other hand, have already slaughtered one of my legions, even when they were doing a last-turn-of-siege atempt to break it.
Humiliating defeat that was, but sure made me fear those naked guys.

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Originally Posted by Cataphract_Of_The_City

Nice...although you could have forced them of the hill by splitting and attacking from two directions. The AI will usually try to maneuver to cover both directions but if your careful with your maneuver you can make them retreat. I think you should have sent both your equites to engage the enemy general using your general to delay spear units.

Btw, I find it very strange that Hastati actually fled before the lines joined. Are you playing on VH? what was your supply status?

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Well, to be honest, one gets cocky when every battle you fight, even where you are outnumbered massively, is won with 90% enemy casualties and only 10% or less of your own, so even when at a disadvantage i just do the same old routine... Put my men into a quincunx formation and send them at the enemy... Then a small army with only two decent units annihlates me and slaps me in the face with a big wet fish.

Anyway, i'm playing on H/M (hard campaign, medium battles) and my hastati route often. Personally i think they're underpowered when you consider at the start you are surrounded by far superior units such as Epirote phalanx troops in the south, Cartheginians in Sicily and naked madmen in the north... If they weren't so historical, as in they were always present and fought first at every battle, i wouldn't even use them... They're utterly useless, but their uselessness makes for a nice challenge, as i have found out. They didn't route before battle was joined though, just very soon after, and by very soon i mean no longer than 60 seconds... Except for my 4 star general, they fight long time for him, but anybody else they just run away very quickly.

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Originally Posted by Dayve

Anyway, i'm playing on H/M (hard campaign, medium battles) and my hastati route often. Personally i think they're underpowered when you consider at the start you are surrounded by far superior units such as Epirote phalanx troops in the south, Cartheginians in Sicily and naked madmen in the north... If they weren't so historical, as in they were always present and fought first at every battle, i wouldn't even use them... They're utterly useless, but their uselessness makes for a nice challenge, as i have found out.

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Sounds accurate to me. After all, it was the job of the Hastati to merely wear down the enemy. The real killing was no doubt accomplished by the Principes.

The key factor here is probably the hill. If you just charged straight up a steep hill then your troops were probably exhausted by the time they reached the enemy. Which means their martial prowess and morale were reduced.

When faced by an enemy on a hill try to flank march until you are on close to the same elevation, then stop moving until your troops are fresh again. Only then do you attack.

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Originally Posted by ravenfeeder

The key factor here is probably the hill. If you just charged straight up a steep hill then your troops were probably exhausted by the time they reached the enemy. Which means their martial prowess and morale were reduced.

When faced by an enemy on a hill try to flank march until you are on close to the same elevation, then stop moving until your troops are fresh again. Only then do you attack.

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My troops were fresh. They got tired whilst marching, but i stopped and skirmished for a while with slingers and leves...

Oh well. Another theory up the swanee.

I've always found Hastati rather good in the early game. They have more armour than most light troops and slaughter liby-phoenican levy spearmen in great numbers.

However if they were facing mercenary Pez with a height advantage I'm not too surprised they lost. The Triarii would have been better pinning troops against those. I would probably have gone after their general with more vigour though. kill him and the battle is almost won.

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Originally Posted by Dayve

On a completely different note, i got a family member whose last name is Damian, which is my first name... Just found it funny, dunno why. I've decided to give him the legion to take back Messana, then the rest of Sicily... He has a son named Julius Helvetius Damian, 1 year old...

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I had an FM named Manius Manlius Damian. Is that the coolest name ever or what. He was the man.

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Originally Posted by ravenfeeder

The key factor here is probably the hill. If you just charged straight up a steep hill then your troops were probably exhausted by the time they reached the enemy. Which means their martial prowess and morale were reduced.

When faced by an enemy on a hill try to flank march until you are on close to the same elevation, then stop moving until your troops are fresh again. Only then do you attack.

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yeh, it must have been a very steep hill too. Once, a rebel army of 4 slingers units (320 men) on a huge hill annihilated 800 of my men before I reached them and killed them

These Carthies seem to be more intelligent than in any other campaign i've ever played. I've just been ambushed by them outside of Lilbeo, after horribly defeating a large army of theirs led by a captain, a bloody 8 star faction heir ambushed me with a force similar in numbers to my own, and i won and killed him, but at a big cost... 1200 dead... I'm wary of laying siege to Lilbeo now incase they ship another big army over, another fight like the last and i'd be back to square one... For a second time.

Carthage is gonna pay for this...

My Hastati seem to perform exceeedingly well given their stats. Even the Rorarii can be trusted to hold the line long enough for the cavalry to arrive.

My Hastati usually make as good of a report of themselves as the Principles. You just need to have something behind them and they'll usually fight to the last ten men or so.

However, a goo bit of advice is to never go uphill. Go around.

I have never, ever, ever seen hastati or principes rout. What on earth are you doing to make them do so?

Fighting on VH battle difficulty, having them running into a phalanx at the front standing on the high ground? It's easy to waste entire units of Silvershiled Phalanxes against Pantodapoi Phalanxes IF the pantodapoi stand on top of the slope, so why not Hastati... ?

I am proud of my generals and my army.

And proud of you Dayve, because you offered them fresh meat. :grin:

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Originally Posted by Zaknafien

I have never, ever, ever seen hastati or principes rout. What on earth are you doing to make them do so?

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Fighting uphill battles against 3 star generals with freshly recruiting units and a green general.

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Originally Posted by Tellos Athenaios

Fighting on VH battle difficulty, having them running into a phalanx at the front standing on the high ground? It's easy to waste entire units of Silvershiled Phalanxes against Pantodapoi Phalanxes IF the pantodapoi stand on top of the slope, so why not Hastati... ?

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I'm on medium battle difficulty, hard campaign difficulty...

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Originally Posted by edyzmedieval

I am proud of my generals and my army.

And proud of you Dayve, because you offered them fresh meat.

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CARTHAGO DELENDA EST! :thumbsdown: :smash:

why in the name of god would anyone ever fight uphill? the entire point of battles in antiquity was maneuvering to fight in a position of power, not weakness.

Sounds like a battle I had playing the Aedui. I was assaulting Aventicos. The settlement had some Mori Gaesum in it along with a few levies, Light Calvary, And a Heavy Calvary unit acting as a Bodyguard. I thought It would be a normal settlement battle with bad AI me pushing them to the town center and killing them to the last man. I was WRONG! They held me at the gate with their pikemen and sent the levies and Calvary Behind My front line and slaughtered my general. Then surrounded my units who were stuck fighting at the gate and slaughtered them. None of my troops survived the battle. I was playing on VH/VH.

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Originally Posted by Zaknafien

why in the name of god would anyone ever fight uphill? the entire point of battles in antiquity was maneuvering to fight in a position of power, not weakness.

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Because the game doesn't tell you what type of terrain you're going to be fighting on before you enter a battle... And i don't save/load unless something daft happens, like getting a crushing defeat and losing 1600 men to a city with 1 4 star general and his 60 bodyguards and 1 unit of liby-pheonecian spearmen, despite having a full legion of over 3000... Which happened to me earlier btw.

if the terrain doesnt agree with you, march your army off the field.

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Originally Posted by Zaknafien

if the terrain doesnt agree with you, march your army off the field.

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I agree but the number where in this case verry favourable so I would have fought aswel

I am although a bit amazed about the moves of the ai becaus I find the AI formations on the battlefield rather weak I find the ai clevernes less then in RTR with darth formations

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Originally Posted by Zaknafien

if the terrain doesnt agree with you, march your army off the field.

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Or you could be a little cheap. Move your army 90degrees off their left flank. They will reposistion to face you and back up a bit. Move off 90degrees to their new left flank. They will move back and face you. Now you have the high ground and they have moved down the hill. Quite cheap but an effective exploit of the AI programming.

I end up doing that a lot with the eastern factions. When both armies are mostly light missile troops, attacking uphill would be tantamount to mass suicide.

Incidentally, if you look closely you can usually get a decent idea of the basic topology the battlefield will have from the stratmap. These days I tend to go to some pains to try to have my battles on suitable spots.

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Originally Posted by Dayve

I'm amazed. Somebody slap me, i must be dreaming. I just fought in Sicily, as Rome, against Carthage, with inferior troops save for 2 units of hired mercenary phalangites....

A full legion, on huge unit settings... 4 hastati, 4 principes, 2 triarii, 2 leves, 2 rorari, 2 accensi, 2 equittes, a general with great manegerial skills, massive influence, no good command traits but no bad ones either, and plenty of battle helping retinues like armorer and chirugeon...

Versus some Carthage crap units, skirmishers, cheap spearmen, 2 units of light cavalry and the two hired mercenaries with a 2 star general...

I attacked, they deployed on a hill, i had no choice but to march up the hill and attack them, they refused to be drawn down the hill by my slinger fire... The battle began, and for two hours it raged... Roughly 2700 of my men, versus about 1800 of theirs... I began by sending my hastati to fight the mercenary units which made up their first line, they quickly turned and ran after the skirmishers threw a few javelins at them. I sent in the principes, they fought for an hour alone with massive casualties, but inflicting almost none upon the phalanx... Their peltastai constantly attacked the flanks of my principes just as they began to envelope the phalanxes, and eventually the principes routed... I sent in the leves and rorari to hold the line as i rallied the cowards and formed them up once more. I attacked with a line of hastati and principes, but as before, they were beaten back by peltastai and thureopheoerieopiroeir attacking their flanks.

I recieved no opportunities to use my cavalry effectively, their flanks and rear were always protected by cheap spearmen units and a very nasty generals bodyguard of heavy cavalry with 60-odd men and quite a bit of experience that i really did NOT want to engage until i absolutely had to... I rallied everything i could and formed a long line, hoping to eventually be able to encircle some of their army and thin out their numbers.. The triarii went in, head on against the mercenary hoplites, they fought hard and for about 30 minutes while the rallied units attacked the skirmishers defending their flanks, eventually i made a breakthrough on the left... A chance to send in my cavalry and break the left flank! I sent them in, 200 equittes, charged the read of one of the phalanxes, only to have my cavalry encircled by fresh spearmen and a unit of medium cvalry and promptly slaughtered and routed... I managed to route their cavalry with my spearmen and continued to hammer away at the flank, then... Disaster... They committed their fresh spearmen and peltastai and attacked my line of reserves, which were depleted and tired units of accensi and leves, they were promptly slaughtered, their general attacked mine and their superior heavy cavalry beat his bodyguard down to nothing until he fled the battlefield, leaving the last two units still holding up, the triarii, to be encircled and slaughtered.

The end results? 2500 dead Romans, less than 1000 dead Cartheginians, an entire legion destroyed save for a few ragtag men, (Like 100 or so) that made it back to Messana. My legion in the north busy defending against the Aediu, a new one will have to be raised which will take 5 turns to make, 2 to form up and 3 to get to Sicily... Then the AI let itself down by laying siege to rebel Syracuse with their now experienced army and general, rather than attacking Messana that was defended by only a shamed general who fled from battle, 100 or so men from hastati/principe units, and a full unit of leves... It would have been a pushover, but alas, the legion is raised and ready.

CARTHAGO DELENDA EST! :thumbsdown:

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Even unmodded, in both RTW and MTW2 the AI likes to camp on hills. If you don't have time-limit turned on (and if you have enough time, then even if you do) I would suggest shooting until you run out of ammo. Slingers are very nasty, sort of like ancient crossbows, and lots of ammo. I would have shot until either they broke, they attacked or I ran out of ammo, and targeted the general so that the slingshots would shoot through the main lines and maybe hit a few heavy cavalry in the process.

The Romans can't really win a frontal attack on phalanxes, unless the phalanx is a low-tier unit and the romans are legionaries or principes, and even then, frontal attacks on phalanxes with anything but other phalanxes are not a good idea unless you quickly outflank, or have really softened them up with missiles first. Carthaginian phalanxes are pretty nasty too, if they had an army built around them, you probly needed 3+ missile units as well as your slingers, or else enough cavalry to overwhelm their general.

I have stood one unit of basic greek phalanx in the hole left from a battered down gate with wooden walls and seen off hundreds of eastern infantry and one general - without breaking, and without missile troops.

Riveting account nonetheless, though. I never use the huge unit setting becaus my system can't really handle it, but this is a good illustration of how much it adds to the game.

Something similar happened to me sieging the city just north of Arimium.

My forces were lead by a rookie general with little command, but consisted of huge amounts of troops (3 hastati, 3 principes, 4 triarii, three equites, my general, 3 ascenci, and three leves), fighting barbarians with a moderate amount of troops (2 Naked Fanatics, 2 swordsmen, some spearmen, and a heavy cavalry plus their general).

They rushed out of the gate, but only with one of the Swordsmen, whom my cavalry immediately slaughtered. They sent another one out, and agian my cavalry slaughtered them, but took a few casualties so I retreated.

Then they rushed all out with no strategy, at which point they met a huge hail of fire from all my units. They still charged on and eventuallly their battle line and mine of hastati and Principes merged. My cavalry charged theirs and killed off their heavy cavalry and was fighting their general, at which point they were reinforced with 2 units of Triarii. The other two went around the back and flanked the Gestarnae. Then I charged in the leves to support the rest of the battle line, and once their general was dead I sent the two Triarii who had dealt with him to destroy the Gestarnae.

To my great surprise their units did not run, and the Gestarnae actually killed off two units of Principes and four units of Triarii on their own. At this point most of my army routed and I had to give up the battle, though I fought to the last man.

My general later took a fully reinforced Legion of 6 Principes, 4 Triarii, 3 Ascenci, 3 Leves, and 3 Equites to take revenge on the city. They decided to simply surrender and offer the keys to the city to my general. For their submision I decided to merely enslave the populace, rather than Exterminate them as I wanted to.


btw, I don't know why you are complaining about Hastati. In my experience they are even more useful than Principes. I don't know why, but I find my Hastati rout less, after more time/losses, and handing out more losses to the enemy than my Principes do.

Its amazing what a handful of Nudists can do. In my campaign I'm going to have to eventually fight several untis of gold chevron Aedui Nudists which I'm not going to look forward to.

I had to deal with a couple of them in my Lusotannan campaign. Solution was to set my light and medium spearmen in a straight line with "Defend" on and hide slingers and missile troops in the nearby trees.

Of course, it makes it easier when you have 6 units of Balearic slingers, but only a few should do.

I had a bridge situation yesterday. Huge army on front, and a smaller (with 4 naked) on the rear. My 4 Principes defended the bridge (but none attacked. I think the AI waited for the reinforcements)
So 5 Hastati, 3 triarii, 4 slingers und a Elite Cavalry faught against 4 naked, 4 other spaer/swordsman und a 64 :sweatdrop: General Cavallery

The hastati formed a defensive line on a bit higher ground and the triarii were on stand-by
Because of the way the enemy reinforcements entered the battle, I couldn't bring the slingers in the back of the Gaesatea. I tried with the Cavalry. It worked more or less good, but I had to attack ~5 times to get even one unit down. On the left side of the line the "normal" units crushed into my hastati at one point. I marched one triarii there to hold the line.
Meanwhile the enemy general tried to attack my horses. I could retreat through the hastati-lines but losed a few horses to the now slim line of the naked.
Time had come for the triarii. They rushed in and tried to surround the enemy general. He escaped to the left flank that was already in bad condition. But the triarii following the general and the course of the battle changed. The first enemy unit on the left flank routed.
Then the general got more or less into the back of the 2 triarii that had chased him a while ago. I had hoped this and got my now nearly-regenerated horses into position and... :smash:
One minute later 30 enemy general cavalery had died and the general tried to flee. Unsuccessful.
The rest is standard: triarii und cavallery in the back, routing enemy. The right side broked, but the slingers were able to kill the last Gaesatea on their own because the naked werent able to run anymore.

The point is: 3 naked fanatics killed nearly 3 hastati while under constant rear-attack of a full elite cavallery and a small general! Only the speed of my slingers saved my defense line from an rear attack. :skull: If the big army on the other river-side had attacked I had lose the battle.

Although a defeat is not a good thing, I personally enjoy being defeated by AI army!.Don't know exactly why I like it,but a defeat gives a fresh breath to your campaign!That's why I play Pontus and almost always use General camera zoomed to the ground in my battles(recommended for defeats:)

The game that isn't challenging isn't really all that fun at all.

Granted, if I loose to an enemy too often, I usually burn a few of their cities to the ground.

I hate to say it, but the fact that you lose battles because of AI tactics is awesome. Usually, they just muscle through with numbers and bonuses, but not with actual strategy.

I lost a battle to the Arverni that I had been winning because they wedged their cav and charged my center. I lost half of my army, but was ecstatic, because it was a setback! Wow! Awesome! The AI actually outsmarted me for once.

It gets boring winning battles with massive casualties on the enemy side, and almost none on yours.