Estonia's Decision to Remove Soviet WWII Monument Sparks Protest

http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/europe...eut/index.html

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TALLINN, Estonia (Reuters) -- Estonia spirited away the controversial statue of a Red Army Soviet soldier from the Centrex of the capital in the early hours on Friday after violent riots against its removal in which one man was killed.

Russia reacted furiously to the move and its upper house of parliament voted to ask President Vladimir Putin to sever relations with the small Baltic state.

Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov said Moscow would "take serious steps" against Estonia, Russian news agencies reported.

The statue was taken away in the early hours after the worst violence seen in years in Estonia, including vandalism and looting by mainly Russian-speaking protesters.

"The aim of the government decision was to avoid further possible actions against the public order," Estonia's government said in a statement.

Russia, which has had troubled ties with Estonia since it won independence from the Soviet Union in 1991, has protested against the plan to move the World War Two monument as an insult to those who fought fascism. It has also angered local Russian-speakers, a large minority of around 300,000 in the country of 1.3 million.

Estonians tend to view it as a reminder of 50 years of Soviet occupation.

"Yet again, we can qualify the actions of official Tallinn as sacrilegious and inhuman ...," Interfax news agency quoted Russian Foreign Ministry spokesman Mikhail Kamynin as saying. "We are working to formulate a concrete reaction towards what has happened," he added.

He said the move was harsh ahead of the May 9 anniversary of the end of World War Two, a popular public holiday in Russia.

By mid-morning the area around the statue was calm and traffic was flowing freely. Estonia said the statue was now somewhere under police control. People continued to clean up the streets and windows in many residential and office buildings nearby were smashed.
Russian anger

The vote by Russia's upper house of parliament on severing diplomatic ties with Estonia reflected Moscow's anger.

"We've seen enough of this mocking the dead and scoffing at the victory in World War Two," Russian news agencies quoted Federation Council Speaker Sergei Mironov as telling the chamber.

The senators then backed the non-binding decision. Mikhail Margelov, head of the foreign relations committee at the Federation Council, said the events in Tallinn showed that "the war against fascism did not end on May 9, 1945."

"This fight goes on and it will continue as long as there are grave-diggers who are ready to throw out from the graves those who defeated fascism," he told Russian television.

The violence came amid strong feelings about the 2-meter (6 1/2 ft) high bronze statue of a World War Two Red Army soldier, set in a large stone wall in a park, which was erected in 1947.

The government said one man died in the disturbances, which began after more than 1,000 people gathered to protest on Thursday, after being stabbed in the subsequent violence.

The government said 44 of the protesters and 13 police were injured and 300 people were arrested. Looters smashed windows, fires were started and cars overturned.

Estonia has said the monument is a public order problem as it attracts Estonian and Russian nationalists. It has also said it is more respectful to the dead to be buried in a cemetery.

The authorities had fenced off the area around the monument and the statue itself and erected a long white tent as they prepared to dig for the remains of any soldiers.

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I have mixed feelings about this. Part of sees this as a bad idea because you it really isn't a good idea to piss off the Russians if you are Estonia. Part of me also says it is good because it shows that Estonia has enough guts to do so.

I say let them piss off the ruskis. 50 years of Soviet occupation is a long time. Anyway, now that they are in NATO, you guys can always ride to the rescue, ala 7th cavalry, if Putin gets his sabre out.

It's their country, they can do what they want. It's got bugger all to do with Moscow.

Just my tuppenth worth.

Does Estonia even need Russia? I was under the impression that they were one of the "Baltic Tigers" whose economy was growing rapidly.

Gas supplies? I imagine they need them as well as the rest of Europe. And since when have (European) NATO had the guts to do anything apart from argue?

It has only been moved elsewhere, not scrapped, so no biggie.

~:smoking:

Monument should stay, screw post-war resistance heroes. It's for dead soldiers not for politicians.

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Originally Posted by rory_20_uk

And since when have (European) NATO had the guts to do anything apart from argue?
~:smoking:

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Afghanistan.

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Originally Posted by Alexander the Pretty Good

Does Estonia even need Russia?

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Yes, if they wish to recieve thier natural gas.

"Gazprom is also increasingly becoming an owner of natural gas utilities in the Baltic region. Gazprom holds a 25% stake in Latvia's Latvian Gaze and a 37% stake in Estonia's Eesti Gaas (along with other major foreign shareholders, Germany's Ruhrgas and Finland's Fortum). Most recently, in January 2004, Gazprom finalized its acquisition of a 34% stake in Lithuania's natural gas company, Lietuvos Dujos. With the three Baltic states scheduled to join the European Union in May 2004, Gazprom's growing influence in the Baltics could serve as a staging ground for greater exports to the countries of the European Union." Source

the baltics are major distribution points for energy from Russia, both via the sea and pipeline.

Other then national intrests (of Estonia) I dont see how this helps them diplomatically.

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Monument should stay, screw post-war resistance heroes. It's for dead soldiers not for politicians.

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One mans hero is another mans army of occupation. Screw the Russians. All this over a stinking statue? Imagine if they had burned Russian flags.

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Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny

One mans hero is another mans army of occupation. Screw the Russians. All this over a stinking statue? Imagine if they had burned Russian flags.

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Living in the USSR wasn't nice, but do you think a prolonged German occupation would have been any better? I agree with Frag on this one.

If the monument is seen as a sanctuary for certain extremists they should crack down on those instead of trying to remove the symptons.

Can't really see why they want to do this.... The Red Army was made up of Estonians as well... Kinda looks like they want to spit at their own citizen who fought and died in ww2...

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Living in the USSR wasn't nice, but do you think a prolonged German occupation would have been any better? I agree with Frag on this one.

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Whats the difference. Brutal occupation is brutal occupation. I guess we better put that statue of Saddam back up. Look these people dont look at the Russian soldiers of WW2 as liberators. And in that view they are correct. People burn american flags everyday yet we dont sanction them for it. Big deal they moved a statue that was errected by anothor nation on thier soil. They have the perfect right to.

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Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny

Whats the difference. Brutal occupation is brutal occupation. I guess we better put that statue of Saddam back up. Look these people dont look at the Russian soldiers of WW2 as liberators. And in that view they are correct. People burn american flags everyday yet we dont sanction them for it. Big deal they moved a statue that was errected by anothor nation on thier soil. They have the perfect right to.

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It's a statue commemorating soldiers who died over 50 years ago, pure and simple. Of course they have every right to remove it, though that doesn't mean I agree with the decision itself. The Estonians share their country with a sizable Russian minority, what good is this going to do?

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Originally Posted by Fenring

It's a statue commemorating soldiers who died over 50 years ago, pure and simple.

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isnt it also a burial site for war dead?

thats whats put me off to it (if thats true) I dont care how people run thier affairs but why move a memorial to war dead and exhume thier bodies in the process? That seems real antagonistic to me.

Great news!

They should replace it with a statue of a German soldier, representing the thousands that fought and died with the Estonians trying to wipe communism off the face of the earth.

http://www.livinghistoryfarm.org/far...vents_0101.jpg

:dizzy2:

Why would Russia care about the statue, it's not like they're Soviets anymore.
I mean if I was the leader of Russia I would try to get rid of everything that had anything to do with it.

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Originally Posted by Xehh II

Why would Russia care about the statue, it's not like they're Soviets anymore.
I mean if I was the leader of Russia I would try to get rid of everything that had anything to do with it.

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Just as well you are not, then.
Putin has proclaimed that the collapse of the Soviet Union was a disaster for his
country, has he not? Distancing wouldn't be foremost on the agenda, and rightly
so.

The statue should've stayed; as a memorial it's only right that it remain
undisturbed.

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Originally Posted by rdeče.jabolko

Just as well you are not, then.
Putin has proclaimed that the collapse of the Soviet Union was a disaster for his
country, has he not? Distancing wouldn't be foremost on the agenda, and rightly
so.

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Why was it a disaster? It would've been the best thing to happen to them.

The way it happened was a complete disaster...
And to Panzerjager: you are just confused... And the german uniforms looked stupid.

Anyways I would just like to say that millions of Red Army soldiers fought and died in WWII, a good deal of them were not Russian, it is not their fault that their bravery was used to enslave countries rather than liberate them. They deserve to be remembered, perhaps for that reason.

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Originally Posted by Randarkmaan

... And the german uniforms looked stupid.

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Ooh . . . careful!

Them's is fightin' words with PJ around. :hmg:

Ajax

edit: I vote they donate the statue to 'Stalin World' in Lithuania.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stalin_World

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And to Panzerjager: you are just confused... And the german uniforms looked stupid.

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I believe most people find the German uniforms of WW2 to be their favorites.

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Anyways I would just like to say that millions of Red Army soldiers fought and died in WWII, a good deal of them were not Russian, it is not their fault that their bravery was used to enslave countries rather than liberate them. They deserve to be remembered, perhaps for that reason.

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What reason is that? Russia was no better than Germany in WW2 if not worse. If the germans had erected a statue to their war dead in France would you complain if the French took it down?

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

Can't really see why they want to do this.... The Red Army was made up of Estonians as well... Kinda looks like they want to spit at their own citizen who fought and died in ww2...

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You jest? Estonia attempted to remain neutral as I recall - but, were invaded by the Nazis. A friend of mines Mom is Estonian (was), her father was a German General that was "purged" for his involvement in the first assassination attempt on Hitler. The Nazis then went after his family - the King of Sweden rescued her step-Mom and step-sister (she was at school) - they git them to Switzerland. She on the other hand was captured and sent to a concentration work camp. After the war, the Soviets invaded Estonia (which had proclaimed their independence) and sent her and a majority of the populace to work camps. The Soviets then replaced the populace with their loyalists. That is who the 300,000 russian speaking populace is - the decendents of the Soviet invaders.

I had a friend in the army that was Lithuanian - he said the Lithuanians in that country today (1968) are Russians - the Lithuanians were enmass walked off to Soviet work (concentration) camps. That was the Stalin plan throughout Eastern and Western Europe, to replace the indigenous populaces with Russians. Look what happened in Poland and Hungry when the populations revolted.

The Koreans tore down every Jap pagoda, war memorial, and building that reminded them of their occupation. Why not in Estonia? Or, anywhere.

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What reason is that? Russia was no better than Germany in WW2 if not worse. If the germans had erected a statue to their war dead in France would you complain if the French took it down?

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I'm not saying that they were better or worse, though honestly I would say the Germans were worse, though I would have preferred neither, who would want to have their country occupied anyway? What I was trying to say was that we can remember if, if we want, how many brave peoples' lives have been wasted.

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That is who the 300,000 russian speaking populace is - the decendents of the Soviet invaders.

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So what? They live there now. It's just as with the Israelis; most of them now are not the occupiers who drove the Palestinians away, but people born in the country.

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What I was trying to say was that we can remember if, if we want, how many brave peoples' lives have been wasted.

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Being brave for a bad reason dosent make you a hero. The point is this is a statue dedicated to occupiers. How can you blame the Estonians for wanting it gone? Im sure there are lots of statues to brave english soldiers erected in Scotland and Ireland :laugh4: How about a nice staue of Longshanks in the middle of Glassgow?

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Being brave for a bad reason dosent make you a hero.

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No, but it doesen't mean they should be forgotten.

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No, but it doesen't mean they should be forgotten

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Let the Russians remember them in Russia then. Why should the people of Estonia want to honor an invader?

Good point, but not all Soviet soldiers were Russian, and there are some Russians in Estonia. But lets leave it at that, they've taken away the statue now and the Russians are pissed. Good for them that they are in NATO, but then again they are dependent on Russian gas.

Anyway as in many situations like this, I would suggest a compromise, but I do not know what kind of compromise.

.... maybe return the statue so that the Russians may honor their fallen heros from the "Great Patriotic War."

The preferences of 300k ethnic Russians will not outvote those of the 1M ethnic Estonians. Estonia could have been more "politic" as to process, however.

I walked in front of the Dublin P.O. and saw no monument to the British soldiers who took it from the rebels in 1916. The Irish, apparently, do not feel the need for one.

There is a monument marking the burial spot of T.J. Jackson's arm which the government of the USA has not felt the need to remove.

Guess it's up to the locals.

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Im sure there are lots of statues to brave english soldiers erected in Scotland and Ireland

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:dizzy2:
As it happens there are.....so your point was ???????

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As it happens there are.....so your point was ???????

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The ones who invaded these countries? Would Britain sanction them if they removed them? Or are you all British citizens and subject to their rule? Who exactly are the Britains nowdays anyway. Its all so confusing. As has been said earlier. Its up to the locals , and in this case they clearly didnt want the statue there any longer. They dont want to honor them and its their country. It shows who was the real god guys in WW2. Even the French havent thrown out our memorials and still honor the allied soldiers who died LIBERATING their nation. They can be thankful they werent "liberated" by the Russsians.

So put a stamp on the statue, and mark it "Return to Czender"? Postal Services can facilitate much diplomacy.

@Tribesman: in Ireland there still exist statues to British soldiers? Wow. Where? What is the theory for maintaining them - homage to bravery, no matter the source?

Comparing the marker where Stonewall's arm was buried to this? Sorry, I miss the point. Heck, every town in the South has some kind of memorial for their fallen in the CW - and I haven't heard of any of them tearing up Union graves there. It is not the same as Estonia's removing a Soviet statue honoring those that brutalized them.

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@Tribesman: in Ireland there still exist statues to British soldiers? Wow. Where?

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All over , parks , streets , town squares , cemeteries , barracks ,train stations , schools , sportsgrounds......it can be contentious, like when they blew up Nelson in o'connel street , or when Paisley got upset because he found out the V.C. statue was of the wrong flavour .
And who could forget Eniskillen :no:

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It shows who was the real god guys in WW2. Even the French havent thrown out our memorials and still honor the allied soldiers who died LIBERATING their nation.

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Have the French thrown out the German memorials ?(Ireland has one of those aswell and we were not even in that war:laugh4: ) . It shows who the good guys are , and it doesn't look like it is the Estonians .

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Originally Posted by Kafir Cobee

You jest? Estonia attempted to remain neutral as I recall - but, were invaded by the Nazis

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Recollection at fault here. Estonia was invaded by the USSR in 1940. It was then occupied by the Germans as part of Barbarossa. Some Estonians were drafted in to the Red Army, but before that others were deported and Russians moved to Estonia. The contribution by the Red Army to the defeat of Hitler should not be forgotten. It often is in the West. However there are better places for memorials than Estonia.

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Originally Posted by Tribesman

All over , parks , streets , town squares , cemeteries , barracks ,train stations , schools , sportsgrounds......it can be contentious, like when they blew up Nelson in o'connel street , or when Paisley got upset because he found out the V.C. statue was of the wrong flavour .
And who could forget Eniskillen

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Are you sure, Tribesman. Aren't those memorials to Irish soldiers who died fighting as part of the British armed forces? Obviously Nelson wasn't Irish, but as you say, he has been toppled. In any case, there won't be any memorials to Cromwell's soldiers, King Billy's armies or the Black and Tans. Not south of the border anyway.

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Have the French thrown out the German memorials ?(Ireland has one of those aswell and we were not even in that war ) . It shows who the good guys are , and it doesn't look like it is the Estonians .

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Where is it? Is there one to English soldiers who died in that war. THEN you might be able to claim moral superiority over the Estonians.

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Originally Posted by Randarkmaan

And to Panzerjager: you are just confused... And the german uniforms looked stupid.

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Now who looks stupid? You can say alot about Germans, but you can't say they didnt fight in style. :yes:


wiki:

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Estonia was formally annexed by the Soviet Union in August 1940 as the Estonian SSR. Many of the country's political and intellectual leaders were killed or deported to remote areas of the USSR by the Soviet authorities during 1940 to 1941. The repressions also included actions taken against thousands of ordinary people. When the German Operation Barbarossa started against the Soviet Union, thousands of young Estonian men were forcibly drafted into the Red Army. Hundreds of political prisoners, whom the retreating Soviets had no time to move, were killed. The country was occupied by Germany from 1941 to 1944 and many Estonians joined the German Armed Forces. Soviet forces reconquered Estonia after fierce battles in the northeast of the country on the Narva river and on the Tannenberg Line (Sinimäed). In the face of imminent re-occupation by the Red Army, tens of thousands of people chose to either retreat together with the Germans or flee the country to Finland or Sweden . In 1949, in response to slow progress in forming collective farms, as prescribed by the Soviet ideology, tens of thousands of people were forcibly deported in a few days either to labor camps or Siberia where half of them perished; the other half were not allowed to return until the early 1960s (several years after Stalin's death). That and previous repressions in 1940-1941 sparked a guerrilla war against the Soviet authorities in Estonia which was waged into the early 1950s by the so called "forest brothers" (metsavennad) consisting mostly of Estonian veterans of both the German and Finnish armies as well as some civilians.

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Id say there is a much better argument for a statue of a German soldier than the communist scum.

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The contribution by the Red Army to the defeat of Hitler should not be forgotten.

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To me this is like partaising Saddam for keeping Iran in check. The Russians were as bad if not worse than the Germans. They fought a war of occupation and called it a war of liberation. They didnt liberate anyone . In fact quite the opposite. I really dont think they deserve any praise other than for being brave men who went to their deaths for a bad cause. They were duped.

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Originally Posted by Gawain

They didnt liberate anyone ... being brave men who went to their deaths for a bad cause

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Considering the post you are replying to I assume that you are not only referring to Estonia anymore but make a general statement here (please feel free to correct me if that assumption is incorrect :bow:).
That said, I would think that I do not think that Russia itself would have been better off under the Germans - so they certainly did fight a war of liberation and fought for died for a good cause, i.e. defending their own country from a brutal invader.

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so they certainly did fight a war of liberation and fought for died for a good cause, i.e. defending their own country from a brutal invader.

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Ill give you they defended their own country but they went way beyond that. In fact at the start of the war they were allied with the Germans. Who did they liberate? Not even themselves. Certainly not the Estonians. In fact they helped enslave their nation and many others. That is unless you think the USSR was a good thing.

Unfortunatley they declined to leave the 'liberated' counties when the war ended. Oh! silly me, I forgot, they were 'asked' to stay around for fifty years. :dizzy2:

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Originally Posted by Gawain

That is unless you think the USSR was a good thing.

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Actually I do indeed think that the Russians were better off living in the USSR than they would have been under German occupation. Do you disagree? If so, why?

BTW, this comparison

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Originally Posted by Gawain

To me this is like partaising Saddam for keeping Iran in check.

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is actually not that good, as to my knowledge Saddam attacked Iran - a country that did not invade multiple neighboring countries and/or started a global conflict.

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Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny

In fact at the start of the war they were allied with the Germans. Who did they liberate?

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The people of Poland, twice. The heroic Red Army liberated half the country so the Wehrmacht couldn't get it, and the British and French declared war only on Germany. Clearly some liberated countries and some occupied them.

Many nationalists, fascists and anti-communists (many were also conscripted against their will by the Germans in the later years of the war) fought with the Germans against the Soviets (at least they believed they did). Likevise many communists fought with the Soviets against the Germans (or at least they belived they did). In reality these people were just fighting for one cruel totalitarian regime against another cruel totalititarian regime.
Anyway, when looking at the big picture, the world should praise itself lucky that the Soviet Union fought against the Germans rather than alongside them.

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Now who looks stupid? You can say alot about Germans, but you can't say they didnt fight in style.

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Personally when it comes to combat uniforms I think the "potato-sack" and sometimes "rag-tag" appearance of the American battle dress in WWII is the one that reminds most of soldiers, the Germans look like they're dressed for a formal occasion.

Anyway one interesting thing that I just remembered is that most of the political enemies that Stalin got rid of were communists. The vast majority of those he caused the death of were poor farmers who died in the famine (the largest human-engineered famine ever). This was not in response to anything anyone said, I think.

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Actually I do indeed think that the Russians were better off living in the USSR than they would have been under German occupation. Do you disagree? If so, why?

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Maybe the Russians but they didnt make up all of the USSR did they? How about East Germany? Who would they have been better off under?

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is actually not that good, as to my knowledge Saddam attacked Iran - a country that did not invade multiple neighboring countries and/or started a global conflict.

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Look at Iran now with Saddam gone. Iran is probably the biggest trouble maker in the world. Im saying it was bad guy vs bad guy. Its the way the US conducts things. Its a really good comparison. Its why we put up with Saddam for so long. The best startegy even in MTW is to get your enemies to fight eachother. WW2 is probably one of the best examples ever. The only reason to back Russia over Germany was strategic. We didnt want either of them to win.

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The people of Poland, twice. The heroic Red Army liberated half the country so the Wehrmacht couldn't get it,

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Wow thats the first time Ive ever heard this spin on the topic.:inquisitive:

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and the British and French declared war only on Germany.

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Because of treaty obligations.

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Clearly some liberated countries and some occupied them.

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Once more name one country liberated by the Russians other than Russia? And I dont call that liberation. Just the opposite.

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Originally Posted by Gawain

Maybe the Russians but they didnt make up all of the USSR did they?

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Not all but the majority - as for the other Soviet Republics, it probably depends - if you happened to fall under Nazi Germany's idea of what constitutes an "Untermensch" you were probably better off being oppressed by "commie scum" (as PJ chose to put it)

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How about East Germany? Who would they have been better off under?

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If you played "model Nazi" you probably would have been better off, if you decided to stay low-key and did not care too much about having (or - got forbid - even voicing) your own political views it probably would have been similar either way, if you did not fit into the pattern (communist, Jew, gay, etc. etc.) I'll dare say you were much better off the way things went historically.
So, altogether, I would say that the East Germans were better off as a satellite state of the Soviets than they would have been as part of a Nazi regime (of course West Germany got the jackpot compared to either of these two options, but that's another question, isn't it?)

As a person whose country was "liberated" by russian soldiers I think I should speak something.

Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia were never attacked by Germans as Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia. They were attacked as territories controlled by Russians.
Into 1939 (officially into 1940) Russians annexed these countries and established military bases. When Germans attacked USSR , they were practically liberators for peoples of Baltic states.
Later (1944-1945) Russians recaptured Baltic states. I'm using word capture because liberation is bad words - liberator is someone who is welcome as liberator - Russians certainly weren't.

If Russians did capture Baltic states into 1940, they wouldn't have to recapture it into 1944/45. So all the Russians that died there were no liberators but soldiers of regime who died for regime. They were ordered to annex other country and they did during annexion. SO they can't be glorified by annexed people.

Situation is similar to Finnish war with Russians (Finns were asked to be 2nd Balts but "disagreed"). I don't think Finns should establish monument to glorify russian soldiers who died "liberating Eastern Karelia" into 1944.

And someone told that into 1939 Russia saved half of Poland from German occupation. WITHOUT HAPPILY RUSSIAN SUPPORT AND COOPERATION GERMANS WOULD NEVER ATTACK POLAND ALONE.
"Liberation" of Poland into 1943-1945 was just another part of war beetwen 2 regimes - communism and nazism. War into Poland did not finished into 1945 - one occupant were replaced by another. Its true that Russians were rahter killing only people who did not agree on being their slaves and Germans were killing everyone but Russians were nothing more than another occupator. Best proof is that Russia stole half of Poland and officially gave it "independent" Belarus, Ukraine and Lithuania. We can discuss about Ukraine and Lithuania but with full respect for Belarussians - there were hardly any Belarussians into territories gave them.

To sum up - Russians soldiers died "liberating" Europe into ww2 were not heroes for me. They were just servants of regime similar to nazism. I don't think they should be glorified anywhere exept Russia (because its true that into some part of Russia they were being liberators). They died fighting for evil so don't expect that they go to heaven.:thumbsdown:
Now their monument is being destroyed - its good IMO. It shows that Estonia is not Russian province anymore.

I'd say it's darn well perfectly allowable for a nation to remove a monument to its brutal and wholly unlawful occupiers. All Ivan is doing is whining about how he's lost his preeminent position in Eastern Europe. I say good riddance and that justice has finally been done.

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Not all but the majority - as for the other Soviet Republics, it probably depends - if you happened to fall under Nazi Germany's idea of what constitutes an "Untermensch" you were probably better off being oppressed by "commie scum" (as PJ chose to put it)

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The majority of republics in the USSR were certainly not the russians however were they? And does Russia out number all the republics that were in the USSR combined? How many joined freely ? This whole idea of the Russia being glorius and heroic is beyond me. I mean I can find many things to praise about the German fighting man as well if not more. But their cause just like the Russians was evil. They wanted to conquer just like the Germans did. And dont for a second thing that most german soldiers didnt think they were fighting to protect their nation as well. Soldiers for the most part are soldiers. They do what their told. Now dont you think all these nations would have been better off oppressed by the western allies?

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If you played "model Nazi" you probably would have been better off, if you decided to stay low-key and did not care too much about having (or - got forbid - even voicing) your own political views it probably would have been similar either way, if you did not fit into the pattern (communist, Jew, gay, etc. etc.) I'll dare say you were much better off the way things went historically.

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Oh please. If you were German you certainly were better off under German rule. This is true for the vast majority ,I cant believe your arguing this. These two peoples dispised eachother at this point. I wouldnt want to be a German living under Russian rule. Just look at West Germany compared to East Germany .

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Originally Posted by Gawain

Oh please. If you were German you certainly were better off under German rule. This is true for the vast majority ,I cant believe your arguing this. These two peoples dispised eachother at this point. I wouldnt want to be a German living under Russian rule. Just look at West Germany compared to East Germany .

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So you are saying that East Germans would have been better off under a continued Nazi regime then they would have been under the actual Socialist regime in the GDR?
I'd like to point out that these are the two options we are discussing - not West Germany vs. East Germany (I think I made my view on that question pretty clear in the part of my post that you did not quote).

Do you think that the average German under the Nazi regime was more or less free than those in the GDR? (and I do not quite recall German citizens being gassed based on their religion or race in the GDR).

Looking at current East German election results it would also seem that the East Germans prefer the GDR over Nazi Germany.

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Originally Posted by gawain

The majority of republics in the USSR were certainly not the russians however were they?

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I would say half of them actually were

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And dont for a second thing that most german soldiers didnt think they were fighting to protect their nation as well.

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I guess that's why we still have memorials for those who have fallen ~;)

Of course a difference is that they actually didn't fight to protect their country (that my grandfather died on the Eastern front perhaps believing that he sacrificed his life for the good of his country does not change the fact that he died for the dreams of megalomaniacs and that his family was expelled from their land for this "dream")

The only statues I really care about are those that depict Bismarck, all the others are not really important.~D
Honoring soldiers for this, honoring soldiers for that, remembering is fine, but apparently the majority of Estonians doesn't want to be remembered of russian soldiers, so what? Noone says the Russians are not allowed to remember them, they can put up statues on their bookshelves at home if they want. Now if estonians will destroy these, THEN we have an issue.:sweatdrop:

By the way, of course Eastern Germany would have been better off under Bismarck. And borders of countries change, a lot, so who gave half of this or that to this or that country doesn't really matter, Poland got parts of Germany after Germany took them from others many centuries ago etc.
Borders change, deal with it.~;)

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So you are saying that East Germans would have been better off under a continued Nazi regime then they would have been under the actual Socialist regime in the GDR?

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Without a doubt if the Germans had won the war.

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Do you think that the average German under the Nazi regime was more or less free than those in the GDR? (and I do not quite recall German citizens being gassed based on their religion or race in the GDR).

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Much more free. How many German POWs returned from Russia? They killed them before anexing their nation. But I guess better dead than under Nazi rule. True liberation.

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Looking at current East German election results it would also seem that the East Germans prefer the GDR over Nazi Germany.

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Or the USSR.

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I would say half of them actually were

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Name them

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Of course a difference is that they actually didn't fight to protect their country

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They did so as much as any Russian soldier did.

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that he sacrificed his life for the good of his country does not change the fact that he died for the dreams of megalomaniacs

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Now where does the Russian soldier differ here?

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Originally Posted by Gawain

Without a doubt if the Germans had won the war.

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I guess 10 years after the war when all the Germans that did not fit the ideal of how a German should be or think would have been exterminated you might have been right.

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Much more free. How many German POWs returned from Russia? They killed them before anexing their nation. But I guess better dead than under Nazi rule. True liberation.

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Do you want to get into a comparison of the treatment of PoWs on both sides? Please explain to which extent Germans in Nazi Germany have been more free than those living in the GDR.

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Or the USSR.

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As more people are voting for the party that was in charge during GDR than for the neonazi party and a lot of people actually seem miss the old GDR times I guess you might be wrong here.

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Name them

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I will name the ca. 100 million Russians after you named all the non-Russians :inquisitive:

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Now where does the Russian soldier differ here?

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Uhm ... if I remember they actually defended their country against a German invasion army (I might be wrong though)

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I guess 10 years after the war when all the Germans that did not fit the ideal of how a German should be or think would have been exterminated you might have been right.

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I dont think the average German under Hitler had much to worry about as compared to Russians under Stalin. They were far better off economically. Hitler certainly didnt want to piss off the masses.

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Do you want to get into a comparison of the treatment of PoWs on both sides? Please explain to which extent Germans in Nazi Germany have been more free than those living in the GDR.

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Please show me how they were better off. They wouldnt have been a statlite nation. Do you really think the Russians treated them better than Hitler would have. Do you think most Germans were oppressed worse under him than they were under Stalin?

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As more people are voting for the party that was in charge during GDR than for the neonazi party and a lot of people actually seem miss the old GDR times I guess you might be wrong here.

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Yes Im sure most Germans just cant wait to be associated with Nazis again lol. So you still have two misquided parties there big deal. Im sure they wyuld rather go back to the good old days when Stalin first took control of their nation. Im sure they were dancing in the streets and thanking him for liberating them.:laugh4:

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will name the ca. 100 million Russians after you named all the non-Russians

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You said the majority of republics that made up the USSR were Russians. I asked you to name them. It shouldnt be hard.

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Uhm ... if I remember they actually defended their country against a German invasion army (I might be wrong though)

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That you are. Both sides were getting ready to attack eachother. Hitler just beat Stalin to the punch. And as has been already brought up what about Russias invasiions of the Baltic states and Poland. This was before the war with Germany. A fact many people overlook. This was not in defense of their nation but outright aggression just like the Germans. There is little to choose between the two. Its hard to even argue Russia was the lesser evil and that why we went with them. They were two of the worst regimes ever to grace this planet.

The more I read about this issue, the closer I come to thinking it would be a good idea for Estonia to remove the statue just to piss off Putin and his supporters. I think the Soviet grunts who were forced to die for an evil regime deserve better, but Russia should stick its ugly nose in its own business.

And as bad as the DDR was for the east-Germans, a prolonged Nazi occupation would have been a lot worse for Russia or indeed any Slavic country.

Oh well . I had a lengthy respose written out , but between visitors and hoards of kids it has gone ...so ..
Gawain.......:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: oh stop .....:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:
Duke......examine the situation , think , then reply .:yes: Its a complicated situation but easily accesible , to say the least , with the last part of your post you are ...wrong ....completely wrong.

oh .....might as well add the plug even though the post is lost ......one of my neighbours next book is going to be....war memorials of Ireland....by Willie (thats an orange name~;) ) Henry .

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Originally Posted by Gawain

I dont think the average German under Hitler had much to worry about as compared to Russians under Stalin.

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The "average" German (i.e. if he did not decide to speak up against the regime) did not have much to worry about in the GDR either.
BTW, is it OK if "non-average" citizens (whatever you mean by "average") like Jewish citizens, gays, disabled people are sytematically killed as long as the "average" citizen is better of economically?

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Originally Posted by gawain

You said the majority of republics that made up the USSR were Russians. I asked you to name them. It shouldnt be hard.

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My mistake - as we were originally talking about people not the number of republics and Russians accounted probably for at least half of the population.
But if we talk about Republics - do you think that most of them would have been better off under Nazi rule than as part of the USSR?
I guess that's again a point were we have to agree to disagree.

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Originally Posted by Gawain

That you are. Both sides were getting ready to attack eachother. Hitler just beat Stalin to the punch.

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So because the USSR might have attacked Germany I am wrong in saying that the Russians defended their country against an invader that clearly fought a war of aggression for land and resources?
A very odd view on history you have here, Gawain...

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Originally Posted by Gawain

And as has been already brought up what about Russias invasiions of the Baltic states and Poland. This was before the war with Germany. A fact many people overlook. This was not in defense of their nation but outright aggression just like the Germans.

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However, you and I were talking about the war between Russia and Germans weren't we?
Let me ask again:
Were Russian soldiers defending their country against an invader when fighting against the Germans or not?
When Germans burnt Russian towns and killed scores of civilians, were they defending their country - yes or no?

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Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny

Please show me how they were better off. They wouldnt have been a statlite nation. Do you really think the Russians treated them better than Hitler would have. Do you think most Germans were oppressed worse under him than they were under Stalin?

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Well it depends. If you were a german jew...

Really, you have to understand the difference between "russians" and "ussr". It is not the same thing. Russians were the most numerous ethnic group in the ussr. Russians were oppressed just about as any other ethnic group in ussr. Of course its twice as bad when you are oppressed by a foreign regimes but don't think for one moment that russians have basked in luxury and freedom while the rest of the soviet union worked for them. They were sent to siberia alongside germans, poles, lithuanians and so on...

Nazi Germany tried to create a world where aryan race rules, and everybody else is either dead or a slave. Don't for one second think that you could compare ussr and nazi germany. In ussr people were oppressed. In nazi germany people were exterminated. It is possible to shut up but it is impossible to change your genes.

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Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny

Once more name one country liberated by the Russians other than Russia.

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Yugoslavia.

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Yugoslavia.

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Awwww come on Samatian , thats not fair , you neglected the Bulgarians and Albanians .
Though of course all Albanians are just drug smuggling criminals ...just ask Gawain ....he knows because his uncle helped liberate yugoslavia and he told him so.:yes:
But anyway his uncle is now Greek , so don't forget the Greek/Macedonian element , or the Hungarian , and as he was American don;t neglect the American , British/Commonwealth , French and Italian contributions to the liberation.

Sooooooooo...apart from fighting against a racist genocidal regime..what has the USSR ever done for anyone ?

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The "average" German (i.e. if he did not decide to speak up against the regime) did not have much to worry about in the GDR either.

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They were never persecuted just for being German under Hitler. Are you trying to claim that there were no reprisals when Russia took over?

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the GDR either.
BTW, is it OK if "non-average" citizens (whatever you mean by "average") like Jewish citizens, gays, disabled people are sytematically killed as long as the "average" citizen is better of economically?

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No , but the point is certainly most Germans were better off under tha Nazis. That is until the war came along.

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But if we talk about Republics - do you think that most of them would have been better off under Nazi rule than as part of the USSR?

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No and thats the whole point. You seem to be thinking i think the Nazis are moraly superior to the Russians. They both suck. They certainly are better off under their own rule. Russia certainly did not liberate them.

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So because the USSR might have attacked Germany I am wrong in saying that the Russians defended their country against an invader that clearly fought a war of aggression for land and resources?

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Theres no might about it. Its like when the Israelis attacked in 67. Your also ignoring their invasions prior to the war with Germany. In fact they had a pact to split up Poland with Germany.

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Were Russian soldiers defending their country against an invader when fighting against the Germans or not?

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I said when they were on Russian soil Yes. The rest of the time no. They were just as bad as the Germans and I still cant see how anyone can argue elswise. So when we and the Russians got to Germanys borders they were defending their nation no?

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When Germans burnt Russian towns and killed scores of civilians, were they defending their country - yes or no?
Today 19:02

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When Russians burnt German towns and killed scores of civilians were they defending their country - yes or no?

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Nazi Germany tried to create a world where aryan race rules, and everybody else is either dead or a slave. Don't for one second think that you could compare ussr and nazi germany. In ussr people were oppressed. In nazi germany people were exterminated. It is possible to shut up but it is impossible to change your genes

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More people were "exterminated" by Stalin than Hitler. Maybe you should study your history a little. Stalin was a paraniod freak. If he even though you oppossed him it was your end. Thats why they hated eachother so much. Its the extreme left meeting the extreme right and finding that in the end extremism leads both sides to the same place.

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Yugoslavia.

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I doubt the people there would agree with you.

Isn't this entire bawling by the Russians over a statue a simple political diversion for Putin? It is one of those totally meaningless affairs that a politician uses to divert attention from the realities at home. There is something else at work here, and this is a weak excuse for what ever Putin is up to.

I mean didn't some Russians just celebrate Hitler's B-day? So, how meaningful is the 'patriots war' today for the youth of Russia? Or, Russians for that matter - I mean it was a massacre for them pertpetrated by their own leaders and generals. A neccessity, sure - well fought? No.

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Sooooooooo...apart from fighting against a racist genocidal regime..what has the USSR ever done for anyone ?

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Must you constantly trash the US ? :laugh4:

The point is they were fighting a regime that was no better if not worse.

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Originally Posted by Tribesman

Sooooooooo...apart from fighting against a racist genocidal regime..what has the USSR ever done for anyone ?

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It was one too ??:juggle2:

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Fenring

And as bad as the DDR was for the east-Germans, a prolonged Nazi occupation would have been a lot worse for Russia or indeed any Slavic country.

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Actually considering the death toll


estimates for Poland

- human cost of Soviet occupation September-October 1939 - June 1941 between 500 000 and 1 500 000 citizens (about 200 000 Jews).

It doesn't most likely include non-Poles from that ethnically mixed part of Poland. In addition the area had lower population than territories occupied by Germany to 1941.

- human cost of German occupation 1939 -1945 - 6 000 000.

Between 1939 and 1941 both states happily concluded the same action - the elimination of the national elite ( action AB by Germans and Katyn crime by Soviets) coordinated during the meetings between Gestapo and NKVD in Zakopane.

At that time Hitler and Stalin shared the idea of Polish-free Europe and proceeded accordingly.

Of course after one shark bitten another in 1941 it had to change.



So here we are Hitler vs. Stalin - pick your choice because noone will help you, it is no fairy tale, no white knights in shining armour coming to the rescue and the good guys will lose anyway in the end.


Have a nice time.:shame:



If you want to vote - here you can

http://www.eesti.portal.ee/index.php?lkET=193&lkET=1

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I doubt the people there would agree with you.

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That has to be the ultimate Gawains worldian answer:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:
So Gawin , you put forward a question , you got an answer that is factualy correct , but you don't like the fact so in comes....Gawains world Gawains world:thrasher: :thrasher: :thrasher: :thrasher:
It is getting to be a bit of a pattern isn't it , you make a definate statement , the statement falls apart but you try and stick with it .
BTW any further thoughts on your statements about Irish or Scottish monuments ...or French ones:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:

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It was one too ??

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OK maybe you are unfamiliar with Python....So....
In what way ?
apply it to what you quoted , not what you bolded .
There is a case of sorts to be made there , can you make it ?

Tribesy, I'm trying to understand, are you trying to say that the Soviets' regime was ok, or better than I'm-not-sure-what ?

Tribesman


'Life of Brian''s 'what the bloody Romans did for us' sketch is completelly not in place unless you assume that Nazi Germany's motorways and health care are also worth such great esteem. Or perhaps Pol Pot', Mao, Kim Ir Sen and other brave social engineers too ?:idea2:

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Originally Posted by Tribesman

Oh well . I had a lengthy respose written out , but between visitors and hoards of kids it has gone ...so ..
Gawain.......:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: oh stop .....:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:
Duke......examine the situation , think , then reply .:yes: Its a complicated situation but easily accesible , to say the least , with the last part of your post you are ...wrong ....completely wrong.

oh .....might as well add the plug even though the post is lost ......one of my neighbours next book is going to be....war memorials of Ireland....by Willie (thats an orange name~;) ) Henry .

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I could well be wrong because I am not Irish. However I did actually look for information so it is not that accessible. Found this interesting website:

http://www.irishwarmemorials.ie/

and looked at a few but saw no reference to English dead. I am afraid until you tell me where these memorials are I am going to continue to believe there are none.* If there is one to Black and Tans I am going to eat my keyboard. Won't be buying your friend's book - doesn't sound that interesting.

(As an aside Tribesy your posting style does invite ad hominem replies but I will try really hard not to. I will limit myself to the sarcastic comment that investigation, reflection and thought are really useful ideas and I will try to use them in future. I will also avoid the temptation to reply in a superior way because that could annoy others)

*following further examination and thought this is still my position. I have examined Irish attitudes to British armed forces Irish views on their own dead who fought in WW1 which is ambivalent to say the least. I cannot believe community in the Irish republic has chosen to honour English dead in any war.

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Originally Posted by Gawain

To me this is like partaising Saddam for keeping Iran in check. The Russians were as bad if not worse than the Germans. They fought a war of occupation and called it a war of liberation. They didnt liberate anyone . In fact quite the opposite. I really dont think they deserve any praise other than for being brave men who went to their deaths for a bad cause. They were duped.

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Not the same at all. Remembering one thing is not the same as forgetting everything else. Neither is remembering a contribution to a war you won by one of your allies the same as giving approval to their actions before, during or since that conflict. The USSR did occupy Estonia. It was a Totalitarian regime. Morally there is not much to choose between the Nazis and the Soviets, but on a practical sense as far as Britain was concerned, Nazi Germany was a much bigger threat. If as a Britain or an American you feel a sense of pride in your nation's contribution to defeating the Nazis, you need to remember which nation did the most fighting, had the most war dead and really broke Germany's military might. In the interests of truth, not in the interests of doling out praise.

Was the average East German better off under Hitler or the Stasi? I would rather be a victim of oppression than share in collective responsibility for its application.

As far as im concerned Estonia is an independent country and they can choose what monuments they can preserve and what not. To me this is just another political trick from Kreml to mess with another former Soviet Republic,by using the Russian minority in order to interfere with internal affairs of a souvereign nation.:wall:

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Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny

More people were "exterminated" by Stalin than Hitler. Maybe you should study your history a little. Stalin was a paraniod freak. If he even though you oppossed him it was your end. Thats why they hated eachother so much. Its the extreme left meeting the extreme right and finding that in the end extremism leads both sides to the same place.

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No. Estimates of 50+ millions are proven to be false. Maybe you should realize that historins and researchers who made those claims didn't really have access to soviet archives so they weren't much more than guesses. Unsealed soviet archives show a different picture.

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Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny

I doubt the people there would agree with you.

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Take a good look at my location, take a deep breath and think again...

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Originally Posted by Sarmatian

Take a good look at my location, take a deep breath and think again...

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Then your opinion is completely meaningless because you are clearly a mindless nationalist. :wink:

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Take a good look at my location, take a deep breath and think again...

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So you long to be returned to the loving arms of mother russia then ?

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Originally Posted by Sarmatian

No. Estimates of 50+ millions are proven to be false. Maybe you should realize that historins and researchers who made those claims didn't really have access to soviet archives so they weren't much more than guesses. Unsealed soviet archives show a different picture.

.

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So are you attempting to claim that the Soviet Union did not kill the numerous millions that many historians have documented. I agree 50 million plus is probably an incorrect number, however many researchers have been able to account for at least 10 million deaths directly associated with Stalin's regime. Remember he was responsible for forcing some collectives into being that resulted in the deaths of millions from famine, then there were the forced labor camps, purges, and other political killings done by the secert police.

If Estonia wants to remove a foreign monument from their nation that is within the scope of that nation. All I would expect is that Estonia offer to transport the monument to the Russian Republic for thier historical safekeeping.

Once I rule the world, I will have my monuments built with an explosive core and a fuse so that they can be destroyed easier if my son cannot come up to my standards and people dislike him.:2thumbsup:

Concerning the Hitler vs Stalin debate, it's quite nice that Stalin killed a few million Russians, but Hitler planned to kill ALL Russians. He never got that far as we all know, but I don't think Stalin had plans to exterminate the slavic culture/race because that kind of included himself I guess.
Hitler also wanted to rename Berlin to Germania once it had been capital of the world. So clearly he was out to kill a lot more.
Stalin killed mostly for political reasons, he wanted opponents to be gone, so anyone who bowed was fine. Hitler wanted ethnic cleansing, he wanted the planet to be occupied by aarians only.

Maybe they both killed about the same number of people in the end, but their plans were a bit different.
The Russians who fought all the way to Berlin defended their country in the sense that defeating Hitler was the only way to end the war.
If you say they fought for an evil regime, you assume they should have not followed their orders if that was against their own will, however if an American soldier refuses to go to Iraq because he does not support the war, he is somehow at fault because he does not follow his orders?:dizzy2:
Double standard?
I'm not saying all russian soldiers were just good dudes who fought for mother russia, raping girls certainly has nothing to do with that, but dismissing them all as evil grunts of an evil regime doesn't seem right to me either.
Rommel and some other german officers were no Nazis either, yet they mostly did their job(invading Africa etc.).

Sarmatian - sorry but looks like you have (common for Serbs) pro-Russian point of view. I have no doubts that you would change your mind if Serbia was Russia's neighbour (of course in condition that Serbia wouldn't have been anexed and call "Serbian Federal Republic" :) )

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Originally Posted by CrossLOPER

Then your opinion is completely meaningless because you are clearly a mindless nationalist. :wink:

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This is the best argument you can find?

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Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny

So you long to be returned to the loving arms of mother russia then ?

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Well, to "return" somewhere implies that you have already "been" there. Since me, and my country of course, have never been in the loving arms of mother russia in any way, shape or form it would be difficult, if not outright impossible to return there. So, you asked someone to name one country which ussr liberated. I named one. They've driven out the nazis and left. For that I am thankful. Because, believe me, we where running out of places to build monuments for all the people killed by the nazis...

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Originally Posted by Redleg

So are you attempting to claim that the Soviet Union did not kill the numerous millions that many historians have documented. I agree 50 million plus is probably an incorrect number, however many researchers have been able to account for at least 10 million deaths directly associated with Stalin's regime. Remember he was responsible for forcing some collectives into being that resulted in the deaths of millions from famine, then there were the forced labor camps, purges, and other political killings done by the secert police.

If Estonia wants to remove a foreign monument from their nation that is within the scope of that nation. All I would expect is that Estonia offer to transport the monument to the Russian Republic for thier historical safekeeping.

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I've been involved in several discussion on the number of killed people in this forum. And yet I've never seen someone who knows enough about it to break down those numbers. Just how many people died in the concentration camps, how many of them were prisoners of war, how many died during deportations and so on. But that doesn't stop people from writing about 50+ millions dead, like they are talking about bank accounts. Those were claims from the cold war, and are very biased. And plus, just how much access had a western reseracher had to soviet union during the cold war? Data from soviet archives just don't support those kind of numbers.

Famine wasn't an organized killing of people. It was a policy supposed to provide more food. It failed miserably in that regard, but that is another point. But again, number of deaths appear to be exagerated. If there had been 5 to 12 million death as has been estimated, there should have been a large drop in ussr population at that time, while it was the exact opposite, there was a rise in population at that time (I could be mistaken on this, I tried to check couldn't find ussr censuses on the net).

To get back on topic. Estonia is an independant country and that means it is within it's rights to remove the monument. But also, 1/4 of it's population are russians. I am assuming most of them are citizens of estonia. In a democratic country, minorities are taken into account when decisions are made. I just don't get why the monument is such big a deal. There is a huge monument dedicated to soviet soldiers in Vienna. No one over there is trying to remove it. There is a boulevard of some american president in Belgrade. No one tried to change it's name because america bombed serbia in 1999. In my opinion, this just looks like another nationalistic stupidity with no gain whatsoever for either russia or estonia. It just means that there will be a deterioration in relationship between estonia and russia.

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Originally Posted by Sarmatian

This is the best argument you can find?

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...Argument? Argument against what? No one here said anything about arguing...:sweatdrop:

I was just using a little in-joke poking fun at the culmination of multiple exchanges that occurred last year, back when I thought my word or opinion on the subject meant anything here. ~:wacko:

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Originally Posted by CrossLOPER

...Argument? Argument against what? No one here said anything about arguing...:sweatdrop:

I was just using a little in-joke poking fun at the culmination of multiple exchanges that occurred last year, back when I thought my word or opinion on the subject meant anything here. ~:wacko:

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Sorry, I must have been out that week. My bad.

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Originally Posted by Sarmatian

I've been involved in several discussion on the number of killed people in this forum. And yet I've never seen someone who knows enough about it to break down those numbers. Just how many people died in the concentration camps, how many of them were prisoners of war, how many died during deportations and so on. But that doesn't stop people from writing about 50+ millions dead, like they are talking about bank accounts. Those were claims from the cold war, and are very biased. And plus, just how much access had a western reseracher had to soviet union during the cold war? Data from soviet archives just don't support those kind of numbers.

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Oh I have been more then involved in discussions on this subject alone. I don't buy the 50+ million arguement myself - its my belief that its too high. But I don't buy your attempt at dismissing it either.

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Famine wasn't an organized killing of people. It was a policy supposed to provide more food. It failed miserably in that regard, but that is another point. But again, number of deaths appear to be exagerated. If there had been 5 to 12 million death as has been estimated, there should have been a large drop in ussr population at that time, while it was the exact opposite, there was a rise in population at that time (I could be mistaken on this, I tried to check couldn't find ussr censuses on the net).

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Your mistaken. The famine was more then just a failure in policy.

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Originally Posted by an historical reference

]Rather than rectify those problems, the Bolsheviks exacerbated the problem by ordering the seizing of grain from peasants. This soon gave way to dekulakizaton -- the liquidating of "rich" peasants -- and collectivization of agriculture. Combined with agricultural quotas that left peasants with almost nothing to eat, the results were predictably tragic. So predictable in fact that historians such as Robert Conquest believe Stalin intentionally inflicted the 1932-3 famine as part of a general assault on the Ukraine.

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Just in case your unware of who Robert Conquest is type in a google search of the man, he is one of the more acknowledge writers concerning this time period. One can question his motives but one should be very careful of questioning the research the man used, given that a lot was based upon accessing records in the old Soviet Union.

So while the data available is actually limited, much do to the desire of the old soviet union to keep things secert. Some data is coming out of the old kremlin to allow historians to attempt to gain an understanding of what happen during the purges and policies carried out under Stalin. While I do agree with you the numbers spouted by many of over 50 million are based upon proganda and lies from the 1930's from both the Germans and even the anti-communists of the time. The Cold War futher inflated the numbers. But it seems to me that your attempting to defend the policies of a mass murder that was Stalin. No matter how you attempt to slice it, Stalin was responsible for the purging of the Soviet Military, the deaths by famine of many people in the Soviet Union, the political prisons and gulugs where many died under the miresble conditions of forced labor.

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To get back on topic. Estonia is an independant country and that means it is within it's rights to remove the monument. But also, 1/4 of it's population are russians. I am assuming most of them are citizens of estonia. In a democratic country, minorities are taken into account when decisions are made. I just don't get why the monument is such big a deal. There is a huge monument dedicated to soviet soldiers in Vienna. No one over there is trying to remove it. There is a boulevard of some american president in Belgrade. No one tried to change it's name because america bombed serbia in 1999. In my opinion, this just looks like another nationalistic stupidity with no gain whatsoever for either russia or estonia. It just means that there will be a deterioration in relationship between estonia and russia.

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Its probably the tactic that both countries are wanting to happen.

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Well, to "return" somewhere implies that you have already "been" there. Since me, and my country of course, have never been in the loving arms of mother russia in any way, shape or form it would be difficult, if not outright impossible to return there. So, you asked someone to name one country which ussr liberated. I named one. They've driven out the nazis and left. For that I am thankful. Because, believe me, we where running out of places to build monuments for all the people killed by the nazis...

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Isnt that because were talking of Yugoslavia here. The other big communist nation. Yeah they were very free after WW2 under Tito. Thats why they didnt stay there. There already was a communist regime in power. So now we have a third bad guy enter the lists.

The point however is that the Russian leaders did not fight only to defend their nation. They started the aggression as much as the Germans did. I willl never see either of these as the good guys no matter how hard you try to portray them as one. Both murdered millions in cold blood plus they are responsible for untold war dead and injured. We are all better off with neither of them ,nor their types of governments in power.

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Originally Posted by Tribesman

Sooooooooo...apart from fighting against a racist genocidal regime..what has the USSR ever done for anyone ?

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Wah? I must have missed your sarcasm. I wouldnt have expected that from you!

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Originally Posted by Husar

He never got that far as we all know, but I don't think Stalin had plans to exterminate the slavic culture/race because that kind of included himself I guess.

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And what the hell is slavic culture ? Nice thinking, but liquidation of elites and subdual of the rest turning them into mindless serfs was in general the target both were aiming to...
As I said before it was COORDINATED between Gestapo and NKVD on meetings kept even in 1941.

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Hitler also wanted to rename Berlin to Germania once it had been capital of the world. So clearly he was out to kill a lot more.

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So was Stalin. The number of soviet republic was infinite and the SU has the globe in its coat of arms.

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Stalin killed mostly for political reasons, he wanted opponents to be gone, so anyone who bowed was fine. Hitler wanted ethnic cleansing, he wanted the planet to be occupied by aarians only.

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Ehem - the opponents' list included for example Polish stamp collectors - because they had 'international contacts' and members of illegal organisations (illegal in Soviet Union) which equalled ALL non-Soviet organisations such as boy scouts, student organisations etc. Not to mention political parties, trade unions, priests of all religions etc.
Pretty long list in my opinion...

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Maybe they both killed about the same number of people in the end, but their plans were a bit different.

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Except they all wanted to 'unite' the world under one banner with liquidation of 'undesired'.

Thanks but a choice between Black Death and Scarlet Fever is no choice at all.:wall:



Sarmatian

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Famine wasn't an organized killing of people. It was a policy supposed to provide more food. It failed miserably in that regard, but that is another point. But again, number of deaths appear to be exagerated. If there had been 5 to 12 million death as has been estimated, there should have been a large drop in ussr population at that time, while it was the exact opposite, there was a rise in population at that time (I could be mistaken on this, I tried to check couldn't find ussr censuses on the net).

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If it means that military protected convoys take the food from the farmers leaving them with nothing except grass, frogs and ... their own children (cannibalism did happen) and blocking all exits it IS not only organised killing, but genocide.

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To get back on topic. Estonia is an independant country and that means it is within it's rights to remove the monument. But also, 1/4 of it's population are russians. I am assuming most of them are citizens of estonia. In a democratic country, minorities are taken into account when decisions are made. I just don't get why the monument is such big a deal. There is a huge monument dedicated to soviet soldiers in Vienna. No one over there is trying to remove it. There is a boulevard of some american president in Belgrade. No one tried to change it's name because america bombed serbia in 1999. In my opinion, this just looks like another nationalistic stupidity with no gain whatsoever for either russia or estonia. It just means that there will be a deterioration in relationship between estonia and russia.

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Well... If someone erects a statue in the middle of your capital which becomes a SYMBOL of the occupation it is important to remove.

It is more tricky here with soldiers' ashes and so on, but the thing is the monument is RELOCATED to a military graveyard - is it not the right place for the dead to rest ?

An example from our history before 1918 Russian Empire erected over 100 orthodox churches in Warsaw despite the fact that virtually all orthodox ( Poland was multiconfessional country for long centuries, but policy of russyfication created divisions which in some regions equalled orthodox religion with Russian nationality, loyal;ty towards tzar - even open betrayal) people in Warsaw at that time were Russian soldiers, clerks and colonists.
One of those was a monstrously monumental cathedral-like building (don't remember its name though) which became a clear mark that Warsaw is once and for all Russian city.
They all left in 1915 with the retreating Russian army so when Poland re-gained independence after 123 years of occupation it was perfectly understandable to remove the churches converting them with removal of the works of art and liturgical items to orthodox churches elsewhere. Some of them were demolished ( not blown up, but removed with care) including the one in the very center of the city.

Was it an act of barbarism or nationalistic crap ? Or perhaps ERECTING such structure was ?



EDIT - I have found the image of the church in Warsaw - Alexander Nevsky Cathedral, Warsaw