Torture Techniques Revealed at Gitmo

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,272492,00.html

WASHINGTON — An accused enemy combatant held at Guantanamo Bay told a military hearing he was physically as well as mentally tortured there by having to read a newsletter full of 'crap,' being forced to use unscented deodorant and shampoo and having to play sports with a ball that would not bounce.

Khan told an April 15 hearing called to determine whether he was rightly classified as an "enemy combatant" that he also had his baby pictures taken from him, that cleaners left marks on his cell walls and that detainees have no DVD players or other entertainment.


This is simply outrageous. I've long taken a hard line with the terrorists in Gitmo, but unscented deodorant? No DVD players? Shoddy maid services!?! WHAT?? Torturous techniques such as this cannot be tolerated in our Republic!

And if it wasnt evidently clear... ~:rolleyes: with a bit of.. :laugh4:

Gitmo, horrid place. We need to shut it down and provide all enemy combatants with the best rooms at the hilton.

No dvd players, inmates in state penetentaries have it worse. Hopefully this will go a long way to queting the left.

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Originally Posted by BigTex

Hopefully this will go a long way to silencing the left.

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You really wonder why 'complaints' like this get out into the media every so often... :stupido2:

Ha, first terrorist I've heard of with a sense of humour! :laugh4:

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Originally Posted by teh article

Chunks of the transcript were removed, including what appears to be additional discussion of torture, including during his detention by the CIA.

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Just pointing that bit out.

So 39 pages of transcript and all that is allowed to go public is minor stuff about conditions and facilities .

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Originally Posted by Grey_Fox

Just pointing that bit out.

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Gitmo is a military prison not a CIA one correct?

Yes, but read it again - details of torture including during his detention by the CIA.

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Originally Posted by Tribesman

So 39 pages of transcript and all that is allowed to go public is minor stuff about conditions and facilities .

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If I was being tortured on a regular basis, I dont think the quality of my shampoo and a lack of DVD players would even come up in my complaint. It sort of waters things down ya know..

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It sort of waters things down ya know..

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In the absence of all complaints from all 39 pages only a fool would make that statement about what is contained in the transcript .
Decipher this ............ yesterday******************************************************************************************* **************************************************************************************************** ****************************************************then******************************************** **************************************************************************************************** ************and***************************************************************************blue****** **************************************************************************************************** *********************and my hat was too small .

OMG a small hat is that all it was :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:

This thread reminds me of that merry figure of speech about "getting hoist by your own petard"...

Fox News, now that is surprising....

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Or not.

Torture is teh funny. Funy, funny torture.

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Originally Posted by Tribesman

In the absence of all complaints from all 39 pages only a fool would make that statement about what is contained in the transcript .
Decipher this ............ yesterday******************************************************************************************* **************************************************************************************************** ****************************************************then******************************************** **************************************************************************************************** ************and***************************************************************************blue****** **************************************************************************************************** *********************and my hat was too small .

OMG a small hat is that all it was :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:

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Im just saying, if I were having my toenails ripped out and daily testicular electrocutions, you wouldnt find "there are no DVD players" anywhere in my complaint. It makes one at least question the drumbeat of torture allegations. "Well, they were burning me with cigarette butts in the eyes, oh, and my deodorant wasn't Old Spice!" :laugh4:

Wait, that wasnt obnoxious enough.. .

:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:

Jeez, my finger hurts. How much of your day do you spend clicking the same smiley over and over and over. :inquisitive:

Ha ha. He made a funny. Everyone laugh now.
:dozey:
Am I imagining things or could it be that you maybe don't quite grasp what's going on here ?

Are you kidding, man? Couldn't the constant humiliation and physical pain be more than enough to plea about?

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Originally Posted by IrishArmenian

Are you kidding, man? Couldn't the constant humiliation and physical pain be more than enough to plea about?

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You would think, if that is what is really going on.

Denial much ?

So they found one of the X number of people there who wrote something silly about his shampoo, and they make sure that gets out in the media.

Or they just faked the records.

Seriously, can you burry your heads deeper in the sand ?

Is this the equivalent of western civilians taken prisoner in Iraq complaining that the sword with which their head was chopped off with was not sterilized first? Oh wait, they can't complain or release documents censored by the enemy's intelligence agency....they're dead, silly me. :dizzy2:

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Originally Posted by ShadeHonestus

Is this the equivalent of western civilians taken prisoner in Iraq complaining that the sword with which their head was chopped off with was not sterilized first? Oh wait, they can't complain or release documents censored by the enemy's intelligence agency....they're dead, silly me. :dizzy2:

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Weren't most people in Gitmo arrested before the Iraq war ? Or at least before the Isurgency ? Aren't most people in Gitmo from Afghanistan rather then Iraq ?


Besides, most (all ?) people in Gitmo should be considered innocent, since they never ahd a fair trial. Most (nearly all) of them have nothing to do with terrorism, let alone the beheadings in Iraq.


It's like you're blaming the Chinese for Pearl harbour...

One man not tortured (maybe): torture proved not to exist

I don't have cancer: therefore cancer does not exist.

:dizzy2:

If our culture gets any more dumb we are going to need to start writing "R" and "L" on our shoes. Or "R" and "The Shoe That Hates Freedom", in some cases.

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Originally Posted by English assassin

If our culture gets any more dumb we are going to need to start writing "R" and "L" on our shoes.

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You assume too much. Not all of us can read you know...

I can see a likely scenario here: "okay you got complaints, list it all, we'll look at EVERYTHING" ...

Then it goes pretty much as Tribesman said. I'm sure the 39 pages weren't taken out because they listed brand names of scentless deodorants that didn't deserve the free publicity.

A selectively edited text proves nothing, one way or the other. But - to use a phrase I picked up from EnglishAssassin - cui bono?

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"The Shoe That Hates Freedom"

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:laugh:

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Originally Posted by English assassin

If our culture gets any more dumb we are going to need to start writing "R" and "L" on our shoes. Or "R" and "The Shoe That Hates Freedom", in some cases.

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I have some expensive socks that say "LEFT" and "RIGHT" on them.:inquisitive:
Just go into a sports store, you can find them there.:sweatdrop:
*thinks of jokes about sportspeople and brains...*

Unscented deodorant and shampoo, raises the question, who is torturing who?

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Originally Posted by doc_bean

Weren't most people in Gitmo arrested before the Iraq war ? Or at least before the Isurgency ? Aren't most people in Gitmo from Afghanistan rather then Iraq ?


Besides, most (all ?) people in Gitmo should be considered innocent, since they never ahd a fair trial. Most (nearly all) of them have nothing to do with terrorism, let alone the beheadings in Iraq.


It's like you're blaming the Chinese for Pearl harbour...

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Most if not all people there can be considered guilty. You don't capture someone shooting and launching RPGs at you and say: "Wait! He needs a fair trial!"

Naive.

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Originally Posted by Vladimir

Most if not all people there can be considered guilty. You don't capture someone shooting and launching RPGs at you and say: "Wait! He needs a fair trial!"

Naive.

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Err...alot (most) of them were civilians at the worng place at the wrong time. You tend to shoot those people with RPGs. And even if you capture them, they'd be actual POWs, something the US administrations doesn't seem to agree with.

He needs the Geneva conventions, not a fair trial....

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

He needs the Geneva conventions, not a fair trial....

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Sure, if they applied. I can't go shoot up a Russian military base and expect them.

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Originally Posted by Vladimir

Sure, if they applied. I can't go shoot up a Russian military base and expect them.

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Well technically, it would be exquivalent to the Russian coming to the US, blowing stuff up, you taking you gun, firing at them and then getting captured and taken to Russia.

Not quite the same situation. While I don't want to argue about the validity of the war in Afghanistan, the US was still the invading force, and a lot of people attacking US soldiers where doing so to protect themselves and/or their family and/or their assest, or at least believed they needed to be protected against 'the americans'.

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Most if not all people there can be considered guilty. You don't capture someone shooting and launching RPGs at you and say: "Wait! He needs a fair trial!"

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Originally Posted by HoreTore
He needs the Geneva conventions, not a fair trial....

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Sure, if they applied. I can't go shoot up a Russian military base and expect them.

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Sorry, you can't have it both ways. EITHER he is a combatant, in which case he needs the geneva convention, OR he is a criminal, in which case he needs a fair trial. There is no third way.

When we caught people shooting and launching RPGs at British troops in Northern ireland a fair trial is EXACTLY what we gave them*

*with the occasional unfair one thrown in just so Michael Mansfield QC could make some wedge

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Originally Posted by PanzerJager

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,272492,00.html

WASHINGTON — An accused enemy combatant held at Guantanamo Bay told a military hearing he was physically as well as mentally tortured there by having to read a newsletter full of 'crap,' being forced to use unscented deodorant and shampoo and having to play sports with a ball that would not bounce.

Khan told an April 15 hearing called to determine whether he was rightly classified as an "enemy combatant" that he also had his baby pictures taken from him, that cleaners left marks on his cell walls and that detainees have no DVD players or other entertainment.


This is simply outrageous. I've long taken a hard line with the terrorists in Gitmo, but unscented deodorant? No DVD players? Shoddy maid services!?! WHAT?? Torturous techniques such as this cannot be tolerated in our Republic!

And if it wasnt evidently clear... ~:rolleyes: with a bit of.. :laugh4:

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The suicide rate and prior documentation of violations say a little bit more.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...ard3-small.jpg\
Look! He's washing his hair with the crappy shampoo!

EDIT: /alfnsnglngdsnb;lnb;ldnbnb

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Originally Posted by English assassin

Sorry, you can't have it both ways. EITHER he is a combatant, in which case he needs the geneva convention, OR he is a criminal, in which case he needs a fair trial. There is no third way.

When we caught people shooting and launching RPGs at British troops in Northern ireland a fair trial is EXACTLY what we gave them*

*with the occasional unfair one thrown in just so Michael Mansfield QC could make some wedge

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There is a difference between legal and illegal combatants. The former is covered and the latter is not. Once their legitimacy is verified then the conventions can be applied. If they are illegal combatants, then they are just criminals.

The only reason war isn't considered a crime is because it's waged by people in authority. For those of you who don't know, authority is simply the legitimate use of force. How legitimacy is determined is very important and nebulous.

The situation in Ireland is/was far different from the situation in Iraq and Afghanistan.

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The situation in Ireland is/was far different from the situation in Iraq and Afghanistan.

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How so? Occupying force being fought by a guerrilla force that also had a penchant for shooting unarmed civilians in both cases. As far as I can see the only difference is what happens after they are captured.

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There is a difference between legal and illegal combatants. The former is covered and the latter is not. Once their legitimacy is verified then the conventions can be applied. If they are illegal combatants, then they are just criminals

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Exactly. And what do we do with criminals?

My Lord, the prosecution rests.

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The only reason war isn't considered a crime is because it's waged by people in authority.

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Yes

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For those of you who don't know, authority is simply the legitimate lawful use of force. How legitimacy legality is determined is very important and nebulous.

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Mildly fixed. Its not nebulous at all. The law of war is long established, and there are good legal careers to be had in the armed forces.

This Fox news article sounds quite a lot like the type of information nazi Germany leaked about their "peaceful camps for dangerous criminals and terrorists" :rolleyes: That people can be gullible enough for such propaganda to work over and over again in history... ~:mecry:

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Most if not all people there can be considered guilty.

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How come most people there are eventually released without charge then ?

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You don't capture someone shooting and launching RPGs at you and say: "Wait! He needs a fair trial!"

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Ah the old fallacy that people in Gitmo were captured under arms fighting in Afghanistan .

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Naive.

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are you describing your own views very accurately?:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:

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When we caught people shooting and launching RPGs at British troops in Northern ireland a fair trial is EXACTLY what we gave them*

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Yep , but don't forget that when the Gitmo approach was used it turned out to be a complete disaster .

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Originally Posted by Vladimir

Sure, if they applied. I can't go shoot up a Russian military base and expect them.

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Of course not. Russia runs under "sovereign justice" these days, after all.

I think its disgusting that fake-news outlets like Fox are putting out stories like this to desensitize the whole torture and illegal imprisonment issue at gitmo. The propaganda machine is in full spin here and most Americans eat it up and laugh it off. Just look at the applause at the republican debate about torturing people... WTF?

by the way, hey PJ, its me Al from the Pond :)

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Originally Posted by doc_bean

Well technically, it would be exquivalent to the Russian coming to the US, blowing stuff up, you taking you gun, firing at them and then getting captured and taken to Russia.

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Not exactly. The individual would have to have been from say Canada or Mexico.

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Not quite the same situation. While I don't want to argue about the validity of the war in Afghanistan, the US was still the invading force, and a lot of people attacking US soldiers where doing so to protect themselves and/or their family and/or their assest, or at least believed they needed to be protected against 'the americans'.

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Some that are held in Gitmo might fit that catergory but the majority should be those who are not native citizens of Afganstan. Now the problem that we all face is that we don't know the full story, to much is being left out, and then there is the futher mudding of the waters of prisoners not being captured in Afganstan or Iraq. If such prisoners exist then the United States is clearly in the wrong.

So as long as we have the same veiw on Human rights as Russia were ok? Thats like saying our economys like Sierra Leones I think were on the right track.

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Originally Posted by Strike For The South

So as long as we have the same veiw on Human rights as Russia were ok? Thats like saying our economys like Sierra Leones I think were on the right track.

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Never stated such a thing. try again or point out who you were directing your statement toward

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Sure, if they applied. I can't go shoot up a Russian military base and expect them.

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Even if these men are illegal combatants why torture them? Doesnt that make us just as bad as the people we are figthing? I thought we were doing this to eradicate horrible people who dont respect basic human rights but its ok for us to do it if there "illegal" combatants? :daisy:.

the time when America stood for liberty and justice for the world is long over, now we're simply a force for mercantilism and imperialist oppression. Its up to patriotic citizens to reclaim our republic and change the epoch to the country's founding ideals.

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Originally Posted by Redleg

Some that are held in Gitmo might fit that catergory but the majority should be those who are not native citizens of Afganstan.

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Not something I've heard (often) before. Do you happen to have proof of this ?

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Originally Posted by doc_bean

Not something I've heard (often) before. Do you happen to have proof of this ?

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Just some information from globalsecurity.org that I would like to believe is correct. Again in the absence of real facts I am hestiant to reach a firm conclusion about Gitmo any longer. Several detainee's have been shown to have been brought in from outside Afganstan and Iraq.

However here is the statement I was refering to.

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Originally Posted by Globalsecurity

According to one report, to qualify for transfer and detention at Camp Delta, Guantanamo, prisoners taken in Afghanistan must meet any one of the following criteria:

Be a foreign national;
Have received training from Al-Qaeda; or
Be in command of 300 or more personnel

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hm, just from personal experience in Afghanistan I can attest that battalions are pressured to create a plausible story for each candidate for detention in order to "send them away". I know of many such detainees that were sent to the BTIF and later to Camp Delta on less than solid reasons, and a true lack of anything we in the western world call "evidence".

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Originally Posted by Zaknafien

hm, just from personal experience in Afghanistan I can attest that battalions are pressured to create a plausible story for each candidate for detention in order to "send them away". I know of many such detainees that were sent to the BTIF and later to Camp Delta on less than solid reasons, and a true lack of anything we in the western world call "evidence".

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Then as a soldier you should provide evidence to Congress - via your congressman that illegal activities are being conducted. By not doing so you are complaciant in any illegal activity.

But then plausible implies a believable theory - so which one is it - is it completely made up or is it at least plausible evidence that would support an initial charge?

You can't have it both ways if your directly involved in the situation. ITs either one or the other.

If anyone actually cares, the techniques used in "enhanced interrogation" have been documented. Extensively. And these are the approved ones, not even touching on some of the weird stuff going down in places like Gitmo and Abu Ghraib.

The CIA sources described a list of six "Enhanced Interrogation Techniques" instituted in mid-March 2002 and used, they said, on a dozen top al Qaeda targets incarcerated in isolation at secret locations on military bases in regions from Asia to Eastern Europe. According to the sources, only a handful of CIA interrogators are trained and authorized to use the techniques:

1. The Attention Grab: The interrogator forcefully grabs the shirt front of the prisoner and shakes him.

2. Attention Slap: An open-handed slap aimed at causing pain and triggering fear.

3. The Belly Slap: A hard open-handed slap to the stomach. The aim is to cause pain, but not internal injury. Doctors consulted advised against using a punch, which could cause lasting internal damage.

4. Long Time Standing: This technique is described as among the most effective. Prisoners are forced to stand, handcuffed and with their feet shackled to an eye bolt in the floor for more than 40 hours. Exhaustion and sleep deprivation are effective in yielding confessions.

5. The Cold Cell: The prisoner is left to stand naked in a cell kept near 50 degrees. Throughout the time in the cell the prisoner is doused with cold water.

6. Water Boarding: The prisoner is bound to an inclined board, feet raised and head slightly below the feet. Cellophane is wrapped over the prisoner's face and water is poured over him. Unavoidably, the gag reflex kicks in and a terrifying fear of drowning leads to almost instant pleas to bring the treatment to a halt.

According to the sources, CIA officers who subjected themselves to the water boarding technique lasted an average of 14 seconds before caving in. They said al Qaeda's toughest prisoner, Khalid Sheik Mohammed, won the admiration of interrogators when he was able to last between two and two-and-a-half minutes before begging to confess.

"The person believes they are being killed, and as such, it really amounts to a mock execution, which is illegal under international law," said John Sifton of Human Rights Watch.

Suicide rate: at the WTC 9/11 100%

Their treatment of prisoners: Beheading


If waterboarding stops another 9/11 or reveals the location of the prisoners before they are beheaded then I'll personally handle the cellophane. Of course people will argue that waterboarding will cause an increase in both of the above, but since 9/11 (and other attacks) and beheadings happened prior to the worldwide publication of interrogation technigues at Gitmo...I'd say the battle was joined from the other side prior and with vigor. If you say the above happened as a result of prior uses of these techniques then please provide the torture causation link to each act of violence in the name of Islamic Fundamentalism.

Of course it would be wonderful to rise above the situation and never commit "torture" no matter how benign, however in a country where people believe Bush choreographed 9/11 rising above would be seen as a failure in policy by those same people preaching our techniques as evil. Not to mention that rising above does not disarm or change the nature of our foe. We won't simply encounter a kinder gentler Islamo-Fascist committing PC acts of terror or take an olive branch approach to the West, moderates in the Middle East, or Israel.

There comes a time to wake up, grow up, recognize the fight we are in, the nature of those we take a stand against, the difference between our worst acts and what is common place for our foe. Of course we go ahead with accoutabilty for our actions to our populace with accountability politically worldwide while the accountabilty pined for by the adversary is to that which brings him virgins.

Yeah, but.

I'm going to pull a Tribesman here and, well, quote him.

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Originally Posted by Tribesman

How come most people there are eventually released without charge then ?

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The whole "we must fight with two ready hands untied (this time!)" thing is cute and all in a let's-win-this-one kind of way but it really doesn't hold up to scrunity. [The US Government] is torturing people and quite likely at least a few innocent people. We make martyrs, sufferings, protestations, and hatreds out of desperation or perhaps even worse -- convenience. Didn't we have a thread around here that people are saying that one of the most chilling aspects of the Holocaust was that a civilized nation was doing it?

Did I win Godwin on this one?

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Originally Posted by ShadeHonestus

If waterboarding stops another 9/11 or reveals the location of the prisoners before they are beheaded then I'll personally handle the cellophane.

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Because terrorist organizations don't realize the importance of changing their plans when one of their own is captured and probably forced to confess ?

This is a pretty sick mentality, Hezbollah and Iran keep trying to get rid of Israel to avoid a second invasion of them (don't know how many people got killed by israel in those countries, probably more than 3000). Several terrorists are out to destroy the US to prevent whatever the US has done to them from happening again. And yes the US has done a lot of things to a lot of people, under all presidents.
This kind of thinking can only lead to a completely polarized world where the genocide of one of the parties will be the only means to completely end the conflict. But then a new conflict will inevitably arise and whole things will start all over again, until someone is both desperate and powerful enough to nuke the world to bits and kill us all.

In light of such an escalation (which is exactly what would happen following your mentality) I say, take the beating, accept the losses. Find the ones who did this to you and bring them to justice, don't antagonize an entire religion/race/part of the world because they will antagonize you.

well, perhaps if we stopped making reasons for them to attack us they would quit. there not naturall 'evil' people you know. perhaps if we removed our hundreds of foreign military bases that constitute the global empire and quit allowing corproations to exploit the poor and hungry in almost every nation around the world, yeah, that might be a good start.

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Originally Posted by ShadeHonestus

If waterboarding stops another 9/11 or reveals the location of the prisoners before they are beheaded then I'll personally handle the cellophane.

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Ah, yes, a variation of the Jack Bauer meme. You are making two honking big assumptions:

• Torture is more effective at eliciting valid intel than traditional means.
• Torture is being reserved for high-value al-Qaeda detainees.

Neither is demonstrably true.

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Originally Posted by Zaknafien

well, perhaps if we stopped making reasons for them to attack us they would quit.

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You do realize that Salafism is fundamentally offended by the west's success, right? As in, they'd love to get along with us, so long as they are supreme and we send them tribute, since that's the natural order of things.

Oh, and we would need to give them Spain back.

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Originally Posted by Lemur

• Torture is more effective at eliciting valid intel than traditional means.
• Torture is being reserved for high-value al-Qaeda detainees.

Neither is demonstrably true.

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What's more "traditional" than torture? As for effectiveness, the link you provided stated that it takes less than a minute to crack someone using waterboarding. :shrug:

Something tells me waterboarding isn't at all common either- why would their be all the other "approved" techniques if it was? You'd just cut to the chase and use what works. They all sound pretty rough, but frankly, I'd be glad if I got off so easy if I were ever captured abroad by a Middle-Eastern government. At least I'd still have all my peices attached.

I certainly don't feel bad that KSM was waterboarded and gave up valuable info as a result.

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Originally Posted by Lemur

According to the sources, CIA officers who subjected themselves to the water boarding technique lasted an average of 14 seconds before caving in. They said al Qaeda's toughest prisoner, Khalid Sheik Mohammed, won the admiration of interrogators when he was able to last between two and two-and-a-half minutes before begging to confess.

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I do not think this is true.

Waterboarding was heavily used by gestapo in France during WWII and if it gave results it was certainly not as efficient as the article suggests.

It looks like a justification to torture persons by giving torture an efficiency it doesn't have.

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Originally Posted by Xiahou

What's more "traditional" than torture?

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By "traditional," in this context, I was referring to the interrogation techniques that have traditionally been used by the U.S.A., especially in cases where we may want to bring criminal charges. The F.B.I. are the current masters of such techniques. The disagreement between the F.B.I. and the administration is well-documented.

There has long been a split between the FBI, which favors (and has long experience with) slower, more benign interview techniques, like establishing long-term, personal relationships between interrogator and subject. Responsibility for KSM was given to the CIA, which had much less experience with interrogations before 9/11, but was more gung-ho.

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Originally Posted by Xiahou

As for effectiveness, the link you provided stated that it takes less than a minute to crack someone using waterboarding.

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Yes, it takes a very short time to reduce a detainee into a gibbering mess who will tell you anything to make the pain stop. This does not necessarily provide reliable or actionable intelligence.

If your goal is to break a person, torture is the most effective tool. If your goal is to subvert them or get them telling you everything you need to know, a softer touch has been proven more effective.

Substantiating this to your satisfaction is probably impossible, due to your tendency to declare almost any source to be "biased," and therefore beneath discussion.

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Originally Posted by Xiahou

Something tells me waterboarding isn't at all common either- why would their be all the other "approved" techniques if it was?

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Actually, the techniques listed in the piece were approved years ago, and far more destructive methods of interrogation have been documented since. Your logical supposition does not match reality.

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Originally Posted by Xiahou

They all sound pretty rough, but frankly, I'd be glad if I got off so easy if I were ever captured abroad by a Middle-Eastern government. At least I'd still have all my peices attached.

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So we now measure our moral rectitude against Syria and Egypt? They are the benchmarks for U.S. righteousness? Lovely.

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Originally Posted by Xiahou

I certainly don't feel bad that KSM was waterboarded and gave up valuable info as a result.

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Implying that those who object to American torture are full of love and pity for KSM? Interesting. And what makes you think he gave up oodles of valuable intel?

It is clear, for instance, that Al Qaeda operations chief Khalid Shaikh Mohammed (KSM) was subjected to harsh interrogation techniques, including waterboarding. His interrogators even threatened, à la Jack Bauer, to go after his family. (KSM reportedly shrugged off the threat to his family—he would meet them in heaven, he said.) KSM did reveal some names and plots. But they haven’t panned out as all that threatening: one such plot was a plan by an Al Qaeda operative to cut down the Brooklyn Bridge—with a blow torch. Intelligence officials could never be sure if KSM was holding back on more serious threats, or just didn’t know of any.

A conservative blogger put it better than I can:

Torture is wrong. The practice of extraordinary rendition began as a classic Clintonian hairsplitting exercise in the mid 1990s to avoid the clear letter of the laws which prohibit America from using torture. This is the kind of avoidance of the law and ridiculous semantics that we decried when employed by the Clinton adminstration. It has gotten no more attractive just because Bush has decided to continue the program.

We are torturing non-terrorists. Perhaps some people would be willing to torture Al Qaeda members. I'm not one of them, but perhaps some are. The problem with that mindset is that we aren't just torturing Al Qaeda members. It is becoming completely obvious that some of the people being tortured are innocent. See especially the ObsidianWings link above. That is crazy. There isn't any information we are getting that could possibly justify the torture of innocent people.

Torture is ineffective. Torture isn't ineffective at getting information per se. It is ineffective at geting useful information. That is because the victim either snaps completely, or starts trying to mold his story to fit what the torturer wants to hear. There is evidence that we have relied on information obtained through torture, only to find that it was very wrong.

Torture also opens us up to the legitmate criticism that we are acting out the very barbarism that we want to fight. I think as Republicans we have heard that charge so many times employed against practices where the analogy was completely inappropriate, that we have become inured to the charge when properly employed. This is a case where the charge has force. Go watch the Nick Berg Beheading Video and then imagine the blood pouring from his neck being just like the blood oozing from the fingers of an innocent torture victim sent to his fate by the CIA. That is the barbarism we are fighting, and that is the barbarism we must not become a part of. I know we have heard the charge that we are acting "just like them" thrown at us over trivial concerns like suggesting that we pay a bit more attention to visa-holders from other countries. This is NOT THAT CASE. This is the case of saying we are acting just like them because we are torturing people--acting just like them.

Therefore extraordinary rendition is a moral sinkhole, which is being employed on people we are not sure are guilty, and which doesn't even get good information. It cannot be continued.

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Originally Posted by Lemur

3. The Belly Slap: A hard open-handed slap to the stomach. The aim is to cause pain, but not internal injury. Doctors consulted advised against using a punch, which could cause lasting internal damage.

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Red-bellies are an approved form of torture? Are noogies, titty-twisters, and wedgies considered too harsh, or do they not produce results?

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Originally Posted by Lemur

His interrogators even threatened, à la Jack Bauer, to go after his family.

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Sheesh, that almost has me rooting for the terrorists...

I'd just like to add that it's now clear that General David Petraeus, commander of the combined forces in Iraq, is clearly a terrorist-coddling defeat monkey, since he has this to say about the use of torture:

Our values and the laws governing warfare teach us to respect human dignity, maintain our integrity, and do what is right. Adherence to our values distinguishes us from our enemy. This fight depends on securing the population, which must understand that we—not our enemies—occupy the moral high ground . . . .

Some may argue that we would be more effective if we sanctioned torture or other expedient methods to obtain information from the enemy. They would be wrong. Beyond the basic fact that such actions are illegal, history shows that they also are frequently neither useful nor necessary . . . .

We are, indeed, warriors. We train to kill our enemies. We are engaged in combat, we must pursue the enemy relentlessly, and we must be violent at times. What sets us apart from our enemies in this fight, however, is how we behave. In everything we do, we must observe the standards and values that dictate that we treat noncombatants and detainees with dignity and respect. While we are warriors, we are also all human beings.

And here are some more softies coming out against torture, namely an ex-commandant of the Marine Corps and the ex-commander in chief of U.S. Central Command. What a couple of hippies!

It's Our Cage, Too

Torture Betrays Us and Breeds New Enemies

By Charles C. Krulak and Joseph P. Hoar
Thursday, May 17, 2007; A17

Fear can be a strong motivator. It led Franklin Roosevelt to intern tens of thousands of innocent U.S. citizens during World War II; it led to Joseph McCarthy's witch hunt, which ruined the lives of hundreds of Americans. And it led the United States to adopt a policy at the highest levels that condoned and even authorized torture of prisoners in our custody.

Fear is the justification offered for this policy by former CIA director George Tenet as he promotes his new book. Tenet oversaw the secret CIA interrogation program in which torture techniques euphemistically called "waterboarding," "sensory deprivation," "sleep deprivation" and "stress positions" -- conduct we used to call war crimes -- were used. In defending these abuses, Tenet revealed: "Everybody forgets one central context of what we lived through: the palpable fear that we felt on the basis of the fact that there was so much we did not know."

We have served in combat; we understand the reality of fear and the havoc it can wreak if left unchecked or fostered. Fear breeds panic, and it can lead people and nations to act in ways inconsistent with their character.

The American people are understandably fearful about another attack like the one we sustained on Sept. 11, 2001. But it is the duty of the commander in chief to lead the country away from the grip of fear, not into its grasp. Regrettably, at Tuesday night's presidential debate in South Carolina, several Republican candidates revealed a stunning failure to understand this most basic obligation. Indeed, among the candidates, only John McCain demonstrated that he understands the close connection between our security and our values as a nation.

Tenet insists that the CIA program disrupted terrorist plots and saved lives. It is difficult to refute this claim -- not because it is self-evidently true, but because any evidence that might support it remains classified and unknown to all but those who defend the program.

These assertions that "torture works" may reassure a fearful public, but it is a false security. We don't know what's been gained through this fear-driven program. But we do know the consequences.

As has happened with every other nation that has tried to engage in a little bit of torture -- only for the toughest cases, only when nothing else works -- the abuse spread like wildfire, and every captured prisoner became the key to defusing a potential ticking time bomb. Our soldiers in Iraq confront real "ticking time bomb" situations every day, in the form of improvised explosive devices, and any degree of "flexibility" about torture at the top drops down the chain of command like a stone -- the rare exception fast becoming the rule.

To understand the impact this has had on the ground, look at the military's mental health assessment report released earlier this month. The study shows a disturbing level of tolerance for abuse of prisoners in some situations. This underscores what we know as military professionals: Complex situational ethics cannot be applied during the stress of combat. The rules must be firm and absolute; if torture is broached as a possibility, it will become a reality.

This has had disastrous consequences. Revelations of abuse feed what the Army's new counterinsurgency manual, which was drafted under the command of Gen. David Petraeus, calls the "recuperative power" of the terrorist enemy.

Former defense secretary Donald Rumsfeld once wondered aloud whether we were creating more terrorists than we were killing. In counterinsurgency doctrine, that is precisely the right question. Victory in this kind of war comes when the enemy loses legitimacy in the society from which it seeks recruits and thus loses its "recuperative power."

The torture methods that Tenet defends have nurtured the recuperative power of the enemy. This war will be won or lost not on the battlefield but in the minds of potential supporters who have not yet thrown in their lot with the enemy. If we forfeit our values by signaling that they are negotiable in situations of grave or imminent danger, we drive those undecideds into the arms of the enemy. This way lies defeat, and we are well down the road to it.

This is not just a lesson for history. Right now, White House lawyers are working up new rules that will govern what CIA interrogators can do to prisoners in secret. Those rules will set the standard not only for the CIA but also for what kind of treatment captured American soldiers can expect from their captors, now and in future wars. Before the president once again approves a policy of official cruelty, he should reflect on that.

It is time for us to remember who we are and approach this enemy with energy, judgment and confidence that we will prevail. That is the path to security, and back to ourselves.

Charles C. Krulak was commandant of the Marine Corps from 1995 to 1999. Joseph P. Hoar was commander in chief of U.S. Central Command from 1991 to 1994.

What's really sad is that our nation behaved with more dignity when its existence was at stake. George Washington had a better grip on what makes America special than any of today's torture cheerleaders.

The founders understood this argument. Its preeminent proponent was George Washington himself. As historian David Hackett Fischer memorably recounts in his 2004 book, Washington's Crossing: "Always some dark spirits wished to visit the same cruelties on the British and Hessians that had been inflicted on American captives. But Washington's example carried growing weight, more so than his written orders and prohibitions. He often reminded his men that they were an army of liberty and freedom, and that the rights of humanity for which they were fighting should extend even to their enemies. ... Even in the most urgent moments of the war, these men were concerned about ethical questions in the Revolution."

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Originally Posted by Lemur's Article

Exhaustion and sleep deprivation are effective in yielding confessions.

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Wow. Sounds like a throwback straight to the Spanish Inquisition. Maybe this sounds crazy, but perhaps we should be less worried about obtaining confessions and more about obtaining reliable information. Or maybe we're just looking for someone to blame and punish, instead of looking to protect American lives.

Ajax

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Originally Posted by doc_bean

Sheesh, that almost has me rooting for the terrorists...

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Yeah, wow...that is worth joining in sympathy with terrorists. Nice perspective.

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Originally Posted by ajax

Wow. Sounds like a throwback straight to the Spanish Inquisition.

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Yeah thats soooo close the Spanish Inquisition. Lets get a little more loose and fast with comparisons. We should just state that we are more like the Nazi's rounding up peace loving Muslims for eventual cremation. :dizzy2:

The article written is of a slant when it states the obtaining of confessions, its called critical thinking. This was the MO of the SI, but there, in the popularized cases you were facing death either way, confession or not. But yes, this is the same thing...pleeeeaaase.

Seriously why do you think we use methods to bring about quick determinations of whether or not a person has information? Do you think we just might have enough intelligence to determine the cred of intelligence gathered? You'll have to think and not just read drive by articles.

/sarcasm on

Personally, just to satisfy you tin hatters and the "that terrorist is just a freedom fighter" crowd, we should put some on a slow burn rack...thats what you want right? I mean if we're already compared to the SI with these benign practices, we might as well go all the way. If we're going to get wet waterboarding, might as well go swimming.

/sarcasm off

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Originally Posted by ShadeHonestus

Do you think we just might have enough intelligence to determine the cred of intelligence gathered?

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Based on results so far . . . no. Torture is a terrible way to obtain reliable information. AFAIC, its only effective use is obtaining confessions, hence the comparison to the SI. If we want to accomplish something other than making ourselves feel powerful and making others hate us, we're going to need to improve our methods.

Ajax

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Originally Posted by ShadeHonestus

Yeah, wow...that is worth joining in sympathy with terrorists. Nice perspective.

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The terrorists are arguably morally superior at this point. They tend to leave women and children alone.


The second quote wasn't mine BTW.

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Originally Posted by doc_bean

The terrorists are arguably morally superior at this point. They tend to leave women and children alone.

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I don't think the terrorists are being particularly discriminate when they set off car bombs in markets, crash planes into buildings, etc. We are still morally superior to them.

As I have stated before, I would have no issue if every terrorist were herded together and dropped in a meat grinder. I would dance a little happy dance. My concern is what torture does to us. We sacrifice all sorts of things, and gain so little.

Terrorists leave women and children alone, huh? Yeah, cause they use those car bombs that know not to blow up kids. And those guys that blow up teenagers in Tel Aviv discos, they know to only blow up the kids over 18?

The big problem I have with torture is nobody is willing to declare what is and isn't torture. Sure, we can all stand around and say "Torture is bad". The problem is, torture means different things to different people.

Not allowing somebody conjugal visits is considered torture by the ACLU. Personally, I'm not up nights over that one. By the same token, jamming bamboo under somebody's fingernails doesn't cause any permanent harm either, and I think we can all agree that shouldn't be allowed...

Even the term 'causing moderate amounts of pain' is a subjective statement. What if the prisoners aren't getting air conditioning? In many ways, that can make you more uncomfortable than sleep depravation, but I'd hardly categorize it as torture. Then again, keeping somebody naked in a 50 degree room and splashing water on them does seem pretty harsh, especially if they don't have a doctor around to watch for hypothermia.

I guess my point is I stand between both sides in this one. On one side, there's a large group of you that seems to want to declare anything the US does to people in it's custody as torture. On the other, there seems to be a large group content to cause pain and terror, so long as no lasting physical harm is inflicted.

I don't want to be part of either group.

And for the record, there are some innocents being held at Gitmo. Many of them are there because the US went into Pakistan and offered bounties of $10K US to the locals to point out who the Al-Queda members were. Not exactly a foolproof method, me thinks.

At this stage of the game, i don't understand why we can't hold tribunals or do something. Many of those being held don't even know the charges against them. Habeus corpus seems like a pretty big give-back. Personally, I'm not happy with the precedent that we can just suspend it whenever things get tough.

the truth of the effectiveness of torture is obvious to those with an open mind.

those who have already decided it is better to become a barbarian, than be the victim of one, will never see it.

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Originally Posted by Don Corleone

Terrorists leave women and children alone, huh? Yeah, cause they use those car bombs that know not to blow up kids. And those guys that blow up teenagers in Tel Aviv discos, they know to only blow up the kids over 18?

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Like US bombs never hurt women or children...

They don't target them specifically at least.

And learn to recognize a hyperbole people.

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Originally Posted by ajaxfetish

Based on results so far . . . no. Torture is a terrible way to obtain reliable information. AFAIC, its only effective use is obtaining confessions, hence the comparison to the SI. If we want to accomplish something other than making ourselves feel powerful and making others hate us, we're going to need to improve our methods.

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We do have intelligence assets around the globe that collect information independent of interrogation of prisoners. This is used to determine the cred of intelligence gathered via interrogation. To think that we just poke some Islamic fundamentalist with a stick and then take what he says to make us stop as gospel is less than accurate and I find you a more intelligent individual than this so it puzzles me.

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Originally Posted by doc_bean

The terrorists are arguably morally superior at this point. They tend to leave women and children alone.

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If this wasn't so tragic, it'd be sig worthy. You can't get your terrorist membership card without wanting to purposely murder civilians of any age or gender that have zero military significance in an effort to invoke terror. Please spare me any tin hat comparisons to our military operations as that would invoke a distinctions of naivety paramount only to American pilots bombing pearl harbor.

-edit- Well you made that reference but qualified it at least -end edit-

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Originally Posted by doc_bean

The second quote wasn't mine BTW.

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Fixed.

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Originally Posted by ShadeHonestus

If this wasn't so tragic, it'd be sig worthy. You can't get your terrorist membership card without wanting to purposely murder civilians of any age or gender that have zero military significance in an effort to invoke terror. Please spare me any tin hat comparisons to our military operations as that would invoke a distinctions of naivety paramount only to American pilots bombing pearl harbor.

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They're indiscriminate when it comes to bombings, with the kidnappings they usually release the women first and unharmed.
They're bombing places with lots of people, including women and children, that's something entirely different from actually cutting their heads off.

Of course, I wouldn't claim the average American has less morals than the average terrorist, but comparing terrorists to the Bush administration, I might occasionally have my doubts...

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Originally Posted by barocca

the truth of the effectiveness of torture is obvious to those with an open mind.

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I bet you could get just about anyone's MAC pin# out of them in 5 minutes or less with waterboarding.

"Torture" can and does yield useful information- it's all about asking the right questions. Saying it can't yield accurate information shouldn't even be part of the argument. Vague and open-ended questions will lead to trouble, pointed and verifiable questions can yield useful intel if done right. I'm no interrogator or intelligence officer, but I'm able to work that much out on my own.

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Originally Posted by Lemur

I'd just like to add that it's now clear that General David Petraeus, commander of the combined forces in Iraq, is clearly a terrorist-coddling defeat monkey, since he has this to say about the use of torture:

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He has to, and should say this. Soldiers in the field need to hear their commander telling them unequivocally that unnecessary violence towards prisoners or civilians is unacceptable.

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Originally Posted by doc_bean

The terrorists are arguably morally superior at this point. They tend to leave women and children alone.

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What an astonishing statement.

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The four unidentified men and the boy were found during raids against an al Qaeda network in Garma, about 30 km (20 miles) west of Baghdad in Anbar province, a Sunni Arab insurgency stronghold.

They were found inside a padlocked room and had been beaten with chains, cables and hoses, the U.S military said in a statement.

"The boy stated the terrorists had hooked electrical wires to his tongue and shocked him," it said. It did not give the boy's age.

"The hostages indicated their captors were foreign fighters who spoke with different accents."

All five were from different tribes, the military said, but no other details were available. They would receive medical treatment and then be handed over to tribal leaders.

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http://lite.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/L21661229.htm

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Originally Posted by Xiahou

"Torture" can and does yield useful information- it's all about asking the right questions. Saying it can't yield accurate information shouldn't even be part of the argument. Vague and open-ended questions will lead to trouble, pointed and verifiable questions can yield useful intel if done right. I'm no interrogator or intelligence officer, but I'm able to work that much out on my own.

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So you are in favor of torture, so long as it's done right. Astonishing faith you have in our government when it comes to such issues.

What evidence do you have that interrogations are conducted with such delicate sense of appropriate application? None of the evidence supports such a conclusion. Account after account coming out of our system shows open-ended questions, forced confessions (many later contradicted by evidence) and in notable cases, death due to interrogation. What makes Xiahou think that every interrogator in every black box prison is another Xiahou?

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Originally Posted by ShadeHonestus

We do have intelligence assets around the globe that collect information independent of interrogation of prisoners. This is used to determine the cred of intelligence gathered via interrogation. To think that we just poke some Islamic fundamentalist with a stick and then take what he says to make us stop as gospel is less than accurate and I find you a more intelligent individual than this so it puzzles me.

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I'm all for using those intelligence assets independent of interrogation. I'm all for interrogation, and I don't suggest we coddle our interrogatees. But I think there's a distinction to be made between interrogation and torture, I don't trust torture, and I don't like what torture does either to those who commit it or those who suffer it. I especially think it's counterproductive in a war against an ideology, where we're trying to earn the trust and friendship of the other side so they won't want to blow us up. Having your countrymen tortured by Americans, I imagine, would only make someone want to blow Americans up all the more.

Ajax

Whether it is being done right or should be done at all is a separate point. I'm just dismissing the idea that it can't yield useful information. Historically speaking- it can, it has, and it will continue to do so. Of course it can get bad information too, especially if done "wrong"- but so can every intelligence gathering method.

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"Torture" can and does yield useful information- it's all about asking the right questions. Saying it can't yield accurate information shouldn't even be part of the argument. Vague and open-ended questions will lead to trouble, pointed and verifiable questions can yield useful intel if done right. I'm no interrogator or intelligence officer, but I'm able to work that much out on my own.

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Thats interesting ....I certainly don't feel bad that KSM was waterboarded and gave up valuable info as a result.
errrrr..,....thats the bloke with the valuable info that he planned every terrorist attack ever undertaken in his lifetime isn't it .
That people can support and try and justify this barbarism is a very sad statement about the human race , an absolutely sickening statement in fact .

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Originally Posted by Tribesman

Thats interesting ....I certainly don't feel bad that KSM was waterboarded and gave up valuable info as a result.
errrrr..,....thats the bloke with the valuable info that he planned every terrorist attack ever undertaken in his lifetime isn't it .
That people can support and try and justify this barbarism is a very sad statement about the human race , an absolutely sickening statement in fact .

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Lets play Where's Waldo and find the inaccuracies and lack of integrity in this post. I find that that people can support and try and justify this glossing over and reinventing of fact as a very sad statement of the human race, an absolutely sickening statemement in fact.