Thousands run riot over religious insults

Just to illustrate that religious excess in response to perceived insults is not the exclusive province of muslims, many of the Sikhs of Punjab are rising to protest an impersonation of one of their gurus.

It appears that whilst images of the gurus are allowed, dressing up as one is not. It also appears that charismatic poverty-embrcaing Sikh leaders are fond of Mercedes-Benz cars too.

Cult leader sparks Sikh riots with 'guru' stunt

By Jerome Taylor
Published: 21 May 2007

The Indian state of Punjab has been set alight by some of the worst rioting in a decade after a newspaper advert placed by the leader of a controversial religious sect sparked outrage in the region's Sikh community.

One person was killed and more than 50 were injured after tens of thousands of angry Sikhs, many armed with their ceremonial kirpan daggers, went on the rampage across Punjab and the neighbouring state of Haryana.

India's Prime Minister, Manmohan Singh, appealed for calm and put the army on standby as the central government sent thousands of police to the region.

The rioting broke out after the Dera Sacha Sauda sect, a non-profit group that combines social work with spirituality, placed an advert in a local newspaper showing its leader, Baba Gurmeet Singh, allegedly impersonating Sikhism's 10th and last guru, an act most Sikhs would consider deeply offensive.

The advert appeared to show Gurmeet Singh administering a special nectar, known as Jaam-e-Insaan, to his followers while wearing the same long robes worn by the guru, Guru Gobind Singh - who was also known to baptise believers with nectar. Unlike Islam, where picturing the Prophet Mohamed is strictly forbidden, most Sikhs believe it is permissible to picture their gurus, and families often place a picture of the religion's founding father, Guru Nanak Dev, somewhere in their homes. But pretending to be a guru is strictly forbidden.

"Impersonating a Sikh guru always runs the risk of outraging even the most moderate of sikhs," says Jagtar Singh of the Sikh Federation's UK branch. "Even if our schoolchildren were putting on a play about the gurus, we would never get anyone to actually play the role of one.

"Most Sikh groups believe Guru Gobind Singh was the final guru. Some people have since claimed themselves to be living gurus, something which is deeply offensive to most Sikhs."

Gurmeet Singh insists he has done nothing wrong and has refused to apologise for the advert. "I wear whatever my followers give me to wear," he told the New Indian Express from his sect's headquarters in Sirsa, Haryana. "My robes can match anybody's. They don't indicate my inclination towards any particular religion. All religions are the same."

His supporters rejected accusations that he was trying to impersonate the guru. But yesterday police filed a complaint against the sect's leader for hurting religious sentiment, a charge often used in a country where religious differences regularly set off violence.

The Central Bureau of Intelligence, India's equivalent to the FBI, also says Gurmeet Singh is a prime suspect in the murder of an Indian journalist who accused the sect of brainwashing women and sexually assaulting them in 2002.

Many say the rapid response of India's government to the crisis shows their fears that the riots have transformed into a wider protest against what many Sikhs say is the way they are discriminated against by the government.

"The recent protests really have mushroomed into something much bigger," says Jagtar Singh, whose organisation campaigns for the creation of a Sikh homeland called Khalistan.

"There have already been incidents where protesters have been chanting the word 'Khalistan'. The feeling is that now is a good time to protest against the government over Sikh human rights. As long as it remains a political agitation for Sikh rights, we support that. When there is violence, we'll condemn it."

The sect leader

* Whether he's dressed in bright, flowing robes reminiscent of an ancient maharaja, or in the white cloth of a wandering aesthetic, Baba Gurmeet Singh Ram Raheem, who spends much of his time living in a cave on his ashram, has always been a controversial figure. Although his organisation says it discourages donations his favourite mode of transport is a fleet of Mercedes cars, protected by up to 25 bodyguards.

* In 2002, his sect was accused of brainwashing and sexually assaulting female followers. Gurmeet Singh, who prefers his acolytes to call him by his somewhat laborious full title Huzoor Maharaj Sant Gurmeet Ram Raheem Singh Ji, is currently being investigated by police over rape and murder allegations.

* He recently clashed with the Punjab's state government after urging followers to vote for the Congress party, which forms the opposition there. But supporters say his message that all religions are equal attracts hundreds of thousands of genuine followers from low-caste Hindu families as well as from the region's Christian and Sikh communities.

ok,

Muslims
Hindu's
Christians
Budhists

Religious intolerance? Well, well, well.

Wake me up when someone riots because Darwin's been insulted, would you?

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Originally Posted by Fragony

ok,

Muslims
Hindu's
Christians
Budhists

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The Virginia tech shooter was comparing himself to Jesus, might as wel scratch another religion from the list...

The Taoists and Zoroastrians seem to be pretty peaceful though.

Hardly a riot over religious insult, just too much starcraft

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Originally Posted by Fragony

ok,

Muslims
Hindu's
Christians
Budhists

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Hindus and Sikhs aren't the same. Admittedly that's about all I know about these religions. :balloon2:

There's a certain irony that sikhism arose as an attempt to reconcile historical religious conflicts between Hindus and Muslims in India. That's the big problem with religions - an assumed divine sanction for any misdemeanor you want to commit.

I think the shooting of abortion clinic staff is enough to take Christians off that list, Frag :yes:

And if I hear anyone saying Stephen Hawking talks funny, my posse will be out on the streets with Molotovs :laugh4:

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Originally Posted by macsen rufus

There's a certain irony that sikhism arose as an attempt to reconcile historical religious conflicts between Hindus and Muslims in India.

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Surely you mean arose when God decided to impart his one true message to mankind...again?

Why, anyone would think that religion weas made up by people, or something.

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Originally Posted by macsen rufus

And if I hear anyone saying Stephen Hawking talks funny, my posse will be out on the streets with Molotovs :laugh4:

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Stephen hawking talks funny - now i expect plenty of pictures and as much property damage as you can manage :devilish:

I don't like him, thinks he is better then us because he has wheels.

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Originally Posted by Fragony

ok,

Muslims
Hindu's
Christians
Budhists

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You post on the Total War forums yet don't remember the peaceful buddhist monks and samurai from Shogun:TW? :inquisitive:

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Stephen hawking talks funny - now i expect plenty of pictures and as much property damage as you can manage

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With the benefit of our special Hawking drive time machines, we present .... :skull:

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Originally Posted by Fragony

ok,

Muslims
Hindu's
Christians
Budhists

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pssst. Sikh=/=Hindu. :thumbsup:

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Originally Posted by Fragony

ok,

Muslims
Hindu's
Christians
Budhists

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Well now we know the extent of your knowledge pertaining to the major religions of the world. :thumbsup:

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Originally Posted by CrossLOPER

Well now we know the extent of your knowledge pertaining to the major religions of the world. :thumbsup:

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Well we have just established that religious excess in response to perceived insults is not the exclusive province of muslims, do I need more? Maybe I should buy more books on it, always handy when I just can't reach the cookies on the upper shelve.

Let us prey... :shame:

I think this sort of behaviour is sikhening. :no:

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think the shooting of abortion clinic staff is enough to take Christians off that list, Frag

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Yeah theres thousands of these christian freaks running about killing people. People of ever religion or none have done bad things in their relgions names or their secular causes. Were talking mass actions here not those of single individuals.

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Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat

I think this sort of behaviour is sikhening. :no:

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Good one!!!:laugh4:

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Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny

Were talking mass actions here not those of single individuals.

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...how far back in time would you like to go ? :beam:

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Originally Posted by Fragony

Well we have just established that religious excess in response to perceived insults is not the exclusive province of muslims...

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Interesting, you did not realize this before?

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Originally Posted by Watchman

...how far back in time would you like to go ? :beam:

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How far back in time can we send him?

Maybe we should conduct a backroom poll and decide that way.....



:devilish:

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Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh

How far back in time can we send him?

Maybe we should conduct a backroom poll and decide that way.....



:devilish:

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I vote back to the first polar magnetic shift.

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I vote back to the first polar magnetic shift.

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This could be taken as a personal insult. But isnt this thread about today? Now where crossing off christianity because of things that happened hundreds of years ago? In reality most of the bad things identified with christians came from the take over of the religion by Rome. Until then they had no power.

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Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny

This could be taken as a personal insult. But isnt this thread about today? Now where crossing off christianity because of things that happened hundreds of years ago? In reality most of the bad things identified with christians came from the take over of the religion by Rome. Until then they had no power.

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NO ONE is sending my mate big G anywhere back in time. OK? :beam:

On reflection, I have nothing against religion, so long as it has no political power. Render unto Caesar etc.

Unfortunately religions seem inevitably to offer career opportunities, and that's when the trouble starts.

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But isnt this thread about today?

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Yep and it still goes on today . Would you like some examples .....again ?

Have the LRA for starters , bringing death , mutilation and salvation in the name of the Lord:dizzy2:
Perhaps someone could make a sticky of groups that call themselves "Christian" who are not really very nice . It might save time again and again and again

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Originally Posted by doc_bean

The Virginia tech shooter was comparing himself to Jesus, might as wel scratch another religion from the list...

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Point of order: The Virginia Tech shooter was 99% likely a paranoid schizophrenic, so you'll have to scratch psychosis off the list, not Christianity.

David Koresh and Jim Jones would be better negative examples, assuming you want to go there.

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Originally Posted by Lemur

Point of order: The Virginia Tech shooter was 99% likely a paranoid schizophrenic, so you'll have to scratch psychosis off the list, not Christianity.

David Koresh and Jim Jones would be better negative examples, assuming you want to go there.

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Oh well, there are a lot more examples of 'Christian' terrorists and militias in today's world and in the past.


It's just one of those things I feel the media decided to quickly skip over. If he would have been a Muslim and had compared himself to Mohammed (err...er someone else important that would make the comparison a little less blasphemous) you can bet it would have been a major point in the news.

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Originally Posted by doc_bean

If he would have been a Muslim and had compared himself to Mohammed.

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Actually Muhammed (sbuh) would have probably been disappointed with the fact that Cho didn't loot first and rape the women before he killed the "infidels".

Hey, the Prophet was a pragmatic businessman. Of course he knew the proper order of things is to kill the fighters first and only then proceed to the looting so you don't get rudely interrupted.

Mind you, given the fairly sophisticated Southern Arabian rules of engagement he might well have frowned on the "rape the women" bit as well. They had some curious codes of conduct in these things down there, borne of millenia of almost ritualized low-intensity squabbling.

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Originally Posted by doc_bean

Oh well, there are a lot more examples of 'Christian' terrorists and militias in today's world and in the past.


It's just one of those things I feel the media decided to quickly skip over. If he would have been a Muslim and had compared himself to Mohammed (err...er someone else important that would make the comparison a little less blasphemous) you can bet it would have been a major point in the news.

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I don't know. The dude who shot up a Jewish community center to avenge the killing of muslims (who I think coined the term 'sudden jihad syndrome') ended up being ruled a head-case, giving Islam a pass on that one.

But your point is valid, generally, whack-job Christians are described as Whack-Job christians, where it tends to be whack-job MUSLIMS, which doesn't seem fair.

Anyway, Lemur, your examples aren't valid either. Neither Jim Jones nor David Koresh were true Christians, as they both represented themselves as the Messiah (a big no-no to those of us that actually DO believe). Abortion clinic bombers are really more motivated by an issue (abortion, which they believe to be murder) than a religion as well. But as Trbiesman pointed out, there's all sorts of folks around who actually profess to follow what appears to be an orthodox Christian creed and do commit all sorts of nasty acts, even in the name of said faith.

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Originally Posted by Devastatin Dave

Actually Muhammed (sbuh) would have probably been disappointed with the fact that Cho didn't loot first and rape the women before he killed the "infidels".

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:beam:

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Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat

I think this sort of behaviour is sikhening. :no:

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Be careful: somebody might take a jab at your pun.

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Originally Posted by macsen rufus

There's a certain irony that sikhism arose as an attempt to reconcile historical religious conflicts between Hindus and Muslims in India. That's the big problem with religions - an assumed divine sanction for any misdemeanor you want to commit.

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To be fair, they sort of got on a bad issue, as in really bad, with the whole Oppress the Sikhs thing from, if I remember correctly, the esteemed Mughal Emperors. Quite a few of the gurus lost their lives the Jesus way, minus the Cross. A few were even de facto insurgency leaders of the Sikhs. Sikhism was and in a way still is the embodiment of Panjabi independence.

That kind of history tends to radicalize faiths.

It surely does not excuse the basic ignorance that faith and mob mentality sometimes provoke in people, though. It's really not that different from that one time when the Beatles were the most hated people evar in the US South because John Lennon thought they were more popular than Jesus when you really think about it. Religion + Crowds With Problems = Baaaaad Recipe.

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Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny

This could be taken as a personal insult.

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Perhaps in another context, hopefully not this one.

Topic:

So we're back to angry people with centuries worth of problems.

In keeping with the topic of this thread: I don't care what anybody says, we all know there's only one religion that promotes female circumcision, disrupts democratic elections, abducts and beheads its opponents, and stirs up youths to join in an uprising against their western-friendly government....

Linky. ~;)

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Have the LRA for starters , bringing death , mutilation and salvation in the name of the Lord

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Oh yes their world famous. How many thousands of them are there? PS who the hell are they?

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But your point is valid, generally, whack-job Christians are described as Whack-Job christians, where it tends to be whack-job MUSLIMS, which doesn't seem fair.

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whack-job Christians are described as Whack-Job christians, where it tends to be whack-job MUSLIMS, which doesn't seem fair.
[/QUOTE]

If their both called wack jobs whats unfair? But this is hardly a fair comparison again. You find a few nuts who happen to be christians and compare them to thousnds if not milions of Mulim nut jobs. All these groups are condemened by mainstream christians. This isnt the case in Islam.

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Oh well, there are a lot more examples of 'Christian' terrorists and militias in today's world

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Give me some significant ones that other Christians dont abhor.

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Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny

Oh yes their world famous. How many thousands of them are there? PS who the hell are they?

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For almost 18 years, the so-called ‘Lord’s Resistance Army’ (LRA) has waged war on the Ugandan government and its own people, the Acholi. The robustness of the conflict indicates that the forces working against peace outstrip those working for it. Analysis of the conflict is often reduced to describing the LRA rebellion as the handiwork of a religious fanatic. However, the social disorder that the National Resistance Movement, led by current President Museveni, inherited in 1986 after the downfall of the Acholi-led Okello regime, contained the root causes for continued insurgency. These were amplified by external circumstances that created the operational leeway for rebellion, gathering force in the absence of a credible Acholi political leadership. A deliverance couched in religious discourse resolved the quandary. The emergence and transformation of the LRA can be made comprehensible only in relation, or even in opposition, to the emergence and downfall of the Holy Spirit Mobile Forces (HSMF) as a radical structure of rejection. Millenarian religious justification contextualizes violence and the use of terror as a means of immobilization and control of the population. As the character and composition of the LRA evolved to include the kidnapping of children, and as the terror escalated, the insurgency became increasingly ensnared in a web of internal contradictions. The result is that the LRA has exacerbated the process of dehumanization the HSMF first set out to counter.

Uganda and the Lord’s Resistance Army: the new order no one ordered
Author: Frank Van Acker
Source: African Affairs, Volume 103, Number 412, July 2004, pp. 335-357(23)
Publisher: Oxford University Press

There were up to 7000 up them at one point, more recent estimates put them at 3000-5000 (people with more knowledge on the subject may correct me).

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Give me some significant ones that other Christians dont abhor.

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Give me one 'muslim' terrorist group that the muslim members of the org don't abhor.

The second part of your demand is impossible to meet since terrorist groups are always fringe groups, or groups operating far away. The IRA was supported by the American Irish for decades before 9/11 happened, for instance. And in fact, there were tied to a religion too, though that is not generally considered the root of the conflict in Northern Ireland.

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For almost 18 years, the so-called ‘Lord’s Resistance Army’ (LRA) has waged war on the Ugandan government and its own people, the Acholi.

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And you think they represent christianity? What church do they all belong to?

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Give me one 'muslim' terrorist group that the muslim members of the org don't abhor.

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Those at the org? :laugh4:

Now thats not fair. How about around the world. I can find you millions of them.

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The second part of your demand is impossible to meet since terrorist groups are always fringe groups, or groups operating far away.

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WellI have no problem naming many Islamis such groups. In fact their barely on the fringe.

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The IRA was supported by the American Irish for decades before 9/11 happened, for instance. And in fact, there were tied to a religion too, though that is not generally considered the root of the conflict in Northern Ireland.

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Excatly it was christian vs christian anyway. In reality British vs Irish.

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Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny

Oh yes their world famous. How many thousands of them are there? PS who the hell are they?

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Originally Posted by Me

whack-job Christians are described as Whack-Job christians, where it tends to be whack-job MUSLIMS, which doesn't seem fair.

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If their both called wack jobs whats unfair? But this is hardly a fair comparison again. You find a few nuts who happen to be christians and compare them to thousnds if not milions of Mulim nut jobs. All these groups are condemened by mainstream christians. This isnt the case in Islam.

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You apparently missed the intention of the capitals to convey stress. My point was for a given individual picked up, those of a Christian persuasion tend to be discussed in terms of their deranged state first, then mention is made of their Christian beliefs. Meanwhile, those individuals of a Muslim persuasion tend to be discussed as Muslim first, crazy second.

This is directed at individuals picked up for random acts of craziness here domestically, like the guy who shot the people at the airplane checkin counter a few years back. I wasn't trying to make a statement on populations in the world at large.

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Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny

And you think they represent christianity? What church do they all belong to?

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A Christian one, don't know the details, considering the amount of weird churches you USians seem to have I think it's rather unfair to say they don't represent Christianity. Neither do Baptists, Methodists, Quakers, etc.

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Those at the org? :laugh4:

Now thats not fair. How about around the world. I can find you millions of them.

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Well, people you know personally would do. it's always easy to claim things about people you don't.

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WellI have no problem naming many Islamis such groups. In fact their barely on the fringe.

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Most of them are small splinter groups, though calling themselves Al Quaida is popular these days, it's not like they're one single organization. None of them match up to the amount of casualties the LRA has caused in the name Jesus though.

EDIT: I'm not saying there aren't more Muslim terrorists these days though, but that hardly makes christians the great peaceful group.

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Oh yes their world famous. How many thousands of them are there? PS who the hell are they?

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do you go out of your way to demonstrate your ignorance or does it just happen?
This could be taken as a personal insult.
now then is that a personal insult or just a comment on the tripe you wrote ?

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Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny

Excatly it was christian vs christian anyway. In reality British vs Irish.

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Oooh, bad play, my friend. You really don't get what that conflict was all about, do you? The British would have been the first ones to get out of Northern Ireland if they didn't have the integrity to defend their citizens. I'm not going to get into a Republican/Unionist debate, but saying Irish Protestants are really British anyway (which I hope isn't what you were implying) is the equivalent of saying that everyone and anyone that sympathizes with Israel must be a Jew.

There is a fundamental difference between Christianity and Islam on this. Christian texts directly condemn the LRA's actions. Islamic ones don't, to my knowledge condemn such actions.

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Originally Posted by Orb

There is a fundamental difference between Christianity and Islam on this. Christian texts directly condemn the LRA's actions. Islamic ones don't, to my knowledge condemn such actions.

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The LRA would disagree with your statement, obviously.

Some Muslims will probably disagree with the Quo'ran supporting terrorism. I don't know the book well enough to comment, and i have a feeling neither do most people on this board...

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There is a fundamental difference between Christianity and Islam on this. Christian texts directly condemn the LRA's actions. Islamic ones don't, to my knowledge condemn such actions.

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I suggest you read your scripture before you make such ludicrous claims Orb:dizzy2:

I think Orb is referring to the New Testament, not the Old. Pretty damn hard to beat Deuteronomy or Leviticus in terms of sheer blood and guts. Heck, for even wearing shirts of any sort of blended fibers, we should all get stoned in the streets, forget about that one lobster at the Memorial Day picnic.... :help:

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You apparently missed the intention of the capitals to convey stress. My point was for a given individual picked up, those of a Christian persuasion tend to be discussed in terms of their deranged state first, then mention is made of their Christian beliefs. Meanwhile, those individuals of a Muslim persuasion tend to be discussed as Muslim first, crazy second.

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I bet in Islamic states its just the opposite LOL. Your going by our view.

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do you go out of your way to demonstrate your ignorance or does it just happen?
This could be taken as a personal insult.
now then is that a personal insult or just a comment on the tripe you wrote ?

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If there is anyone who goes around giving veiled and not so veiled personal insults around here its you. Sometimes im amazed they still let you post here. This is just another of your insults.

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Oooh, bad play, my friend. You really don't get what that conflict was all about, do you?

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I certainly do.

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The British would have been the first ones to get out of Northern Ireland if they didn't have the integrity to defend their citizens.

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If they got out what citizens of theirs are they going to defend? I suppose you mean the Irish Protestants? Their not english citiznens anymore than any other Irishman are they? The only way religion comes in is because the english invaders were protestant. They could have been buddists it wouldnt have made a difference.

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I suggest you read your scripture before you make such ludicrous claims Orb

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Then I suggest you do the same and this time learn their true meaning.

Gawain, I don't want to hijack this thread, so I'm going to start a different one. Please follow me over there.

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This is just another of your insults.

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Nope , it is just a comment noting that you wrote complete rubbish on the subject and the reason that you wrote such tripe is either that you lack knowledge of the subject or you don't want to know about things in case they conflict with your preconceptions .

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Then I suggest you do the same and this time learn their true meaning.

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:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: oh lordy :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: errr ...you have read the Bible haven't you ? or are you just going on what you want to think is written in it .

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I certainly do.

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Oh no , its Gawain the oirish republican again:help:

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If they got out what citizens of theirs are they going to defend? I suppose you mean the Irish Protestants? Their not english citiznens anymore than any other Irishman are they?

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God save us from the narrowbacks:dizzy2:

If they say Old Testament > New Testament, that makes them Jews, not Christians, no?
For Christians it's New Testament > Old Testament and the opinion of Jesus concerning violence should be pretty clear as long as one is not illiterate, remember, Christian is rather similar to Christ and that is because what he said should be above everything else for a Christian.

The LRA obviously does not understand that and they can call themselves whatever they want, they're not Christians. If I call myself an American from today and swear an oath on the US constitution, does that make me a US citizen?
(ok, very bad comparison, doesn't even work that way, but if there is a God, he has similar mempbership rules as the US and so in his book, the LRA would not be Christians and since he would decide in the end, etc. pp.)

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Nope , it is just a comment noting that you wrote complete rubbish on the subject

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On what subject what that be? For once in your life be specific. Exactly what rubbish?

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and the reason that you wrote such tripe is either that you lack knowledge of the subject or you don't want to know about things in case they conflict with your preconceptions .

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Sure I could have looked it up but I figured Id ask. Just what conflict are you speaking of anyway?

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oh lordy errr ...you have read the Bible haven't you ? or are you just going on what you want to think is written in it .

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New Testament. Find me where Jesus says to kill the unbeliever.

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Oh no , its Gawain the oirish republican again

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Im certainly no republican and Im far more of a centerist you are.

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Originally Posted by Husar

The LRA obviously does not understand that and they can call themselves whatever they want, they're not Christians. If I call myself an American from today and swear an oath on the US constitution, does that make me a US citizen?
(ok, very bad comparison, doesn't even work that way, but if there is a God, he has similar mempbership rules as the US and so in his book, the LRA would not be Christians and since he would decide in the end, etc. pp.)

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So, if John Buchanan, East Lansing, Baptist, is not responsible for the actions of the LRA, why should Ghassan Ahmed, Cairo, Sunni, be responsible for Al-Qaida?

Chaos and suffering produce madmen. Madmen propagate chaos and suffering. All in God's Holy Name. It's almost pretty if you ask me. Curious, though, that a thread about how radicalized Sikhism has become is directed towards more Islam criticism, again.

Would you like me to state the obvious behind that ?

yes

-edit-
Iowa is above Missouri so I'm close to the "show me" principle...

Some people here seem to hold certain antipathies - dare I say prejudices ? - that have a tendency to show through in a manner some might regard as possibly biased if not one-sided when the talk turns to certain kinds of topics.

I could also give a less sanitized version, but that'd probably net me an admin warning for breach of etiquette.

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Originally Posted by Watchman

I could also give a less sanitized version, but that'd probably net me an admin warning for breach of etiquette.

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Vegas had it at even odds which version would show up until mods tipped off the odds makers that behaviour here has been good lately. Needless to say my bet didn't pay off as high as it should have.

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Originally Posted by AntiochusIII

why should Ghassan Ahmed, Cairo, Sunni, be responsible for Al-Qaida?

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I didn't say that he is, I just injected my totally irrelevant opinion on the matter and you may assume now that I do not think all muslims are responsible for the actions of "muslim" terrorists.:bow:

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On what subject what that be? For once in your life be specific. Exactly what rubbish?

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Specific eh
Christians don't do that
yes they do
only in ancient times not now
wrong again
but not on a large scale
:oops: you did it again
yeah but they aren't really Christian
they say they are:yes:
scripture doesn't support that
it does
not that Christian scripture other Christain scripture
:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:
quite a pile of tripe once again arising from where you have tried to state something that isn't true then tried to defend it .

BTW

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Im certainly no republican and Im far more of a centerist you are.

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my comment clearly went way over your head , invest in some stilts:idea2:

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Vyes they do

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Not if their real christians.

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they say they are

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In name only

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it does

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Not the New Testament

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quite a pile of tripe once again arising from where you have tried to state something that isn't true then tried to defend it .

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The old Testament is Jewish scipture not Christian.

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my comment clearly went way over your head , invest in some stilts

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Maybe if you didnt make up words I could understand you . What the hell is oirish?

It was a play on words. "Oyrish" being Irish, and he was implying that you were a zealous, if ignorant defender of the Irish Republic though you didn't have a handle on the issues involved.

Republican in Irish terms means that you favor the 6 counties rejoining the other 26, not that you voted for Bush.

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Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny

Not if their real christians.

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You do realize this funny question is exactly what various brands of Christians have merrily massacred each other over on several occasions over the last two millenia, right ?
:inquisitive:
And who died and made you the judge of the validity of someone's Christian faith, anyway ?

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Republican in Irish terms means that you favor the 6 counties rejoining the other 26, not that you voted for Bush.

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Well can you blame me for not understanding him then? :laugh4: The guy is never clear.

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You do realize this funny question is exactly what various brands of Christians have merrily massacred each other over on several occasions over the last two millenia, right ?

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When was the last time this happened?

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And who died and made you the judge of the validity of someone's Christian faith, anyway ?

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My thats the easiest question Ive ever seen here. Why Jesus of course :laugh4:

Look you cant find any "violent Christian group" that isnt vigorously condemned by mainstream christians all of who will say the same thing i did and Im not even a christian. In one religion its so small a percentage of people as to be totally insignificant while in the other it seems to approach mainstream thought. The comparison is ludicrous on its face. Im sick of all this moral equivelency. People here bring up abortion shootings like there an everyday occurence or happen at least as often as Palestinian suicide attacks. Its silly.

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Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny

When was the last time this happened?

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I figure North Ireland could actually qualify.

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Look you cant find any "violent Christian group" that isnt vigorously condemned by mainstream christians all of who will say the same thing i did and Im not even a christian. In one religion its so small a percentage of people as to be totally insignificant while in the other it seems to approach mainstream thought. The comparison is ludicrous on its face. Im sick of all this moral equivelency. People here bring up abortion shootings like there an everyday occurence or happen at least as often as Palestinian suicide attacks. Its silly.

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Right. And the "Christian" West and the Muslim world are obviously in similar situations and under similar internal tensions.
:dizzy2:
Recall that we sorta dumped religion by the wayside a while ago ? Not that there was any shortage of other battle banners to raise though - remember fascism and communism ? We fought the two most destructive wars in all human history within the last hundred years, and the rallying cries being taken from dogmas other than the old-school religions doesn't really change much - the zeal was much the same.

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I figure North Ireland could actually qualify.

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Yeah its just like Palestine lol. I dont think so.

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Right. And the "Christian" West and the Muslim world are obviously in similar situations and under similar internal tensions.

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Oh so now Christians represent the west and Muslims the rest of the world . I never learned that sorry.

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Recall that we sorta dumped religion by the wayside a while ago ? Not that there was any shortage of other battle banners to raise though - remember fascism and communism ? We fought the two most destructive wars in all human history within the last hundred years, and the rallying cries being taken from dogmas other than the old-school religions doesn't really change much - the zeal was much the same.

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Thanks for proving my point. Chrisitanity went through a prfound change. Were still waiting for Islam to see the light. Anyone with half a brain who can read scripture can in no way interpret the new testament as a basis to launch a war or kill people. Now with my half a brain when i read the Koran I see tons of this stuff.:smash:

This just occurred to me, but how about the Jews then ? Unlike these "proper Christians" you speak of they after all stick - partially at least - to the Old Testament which as we all know is divinely ordained bloodbath galore...

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This just occurred to me, but how about the Jews then ? Unlike these "proper Christians" you speak of they after all stick - partially at least - to the Old Testament which as we all know is divinely ordained bloodbath galore...

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Your right the Jews have been persecuting and slaughtering the rest of humanity since they came into existence, reaching their hieght in the mid 1930s to 40s :help:

Not an expert on the history of Judaism or Jewish tradition, but I seem to recall from some religion courses in college that they have seen a number of reformations.

[edit] Of course like any belief structure at times there is always a predisposition to "run home to momma" so to speak.

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Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny

Your right the Jews have been persecuting and slaughtering the rest of humanity since they came into existence, reaching their hieght in the mid 1930s to 40s :help:

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You're the one who started comparing scriptures, not me. Answer the question.

'Sides, the modern brand of Islamic militancy is a very recent thing. A decade or two at most. Before the Iranian Revolution the whole damn faith was regarded as a virtual nonentity in the international field - something that a lot of folks believed in, but not something of any real impact on policies or which should be taken into account in analysis.

My guess is that much like Communism once Islamism has became the vehicle of revolutionary sentiment in the "global South" (you know - Third World, Developing Countries, whatever you now want to call it), or in any case a part of it. A framework which very diverse people, groups and ideas mainly connected by a feeling of "being fed up with the way things are going" have come to adopt for articulating their messages, legitimizing their goals and actions, and formulating their more or less fantastic takes on "how things should be".

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The old Testament is Jewish scipture not Christian.

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Blimey Gawain its hard to credit it , but you actually manage to get worse in your attempts:dizzy2:
go down to your local church and ask them to show you a Christian bible :idea2: the old testament is the Christian version of Jewish scripture .

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'Sides, the modern brand of Islamic militancy is a very recent thing.

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Only if you leave out Mohammed and all the history of Islam prior to this. :furious3:

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go down to your local church and ask them to show you a Christian bible the old testament is the Christian version of Jewish scripture .

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I dont have to Ive read it countless times. So now the Catholic church wrote the old testament :laugh4:

And of course all christians observe Jewish law.

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So now the Catholic church wrote the old testament

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errrrrr .......yep as did the eastern and oriental orthadox churches , then along came Luther and protestantism and they wrote their old testament as well because they didn't like the other versions that other churches wrote .

Gawain are you out to prove something ?
like perhaps .....Blimey Gawain its hard to credit it , but you actually manage to get worse in your attempts:dizzy2:

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Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny

Only if you leave out Mohammed and all the history of Islam prior to this. :furious3:

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What, you mean Muslims weren't allowed to try building empires to the best of their ability like everyone else ? Dang. Shoulda told them sooner, so they'd have contented themselves keeping up the merry old tribal skirmishing tradition down in southern Arabia and left the proper warring and conquering to, lessee, diverse brands of Christians, "pagans", Zoroastrians, Hindus, Buddhists...
:dozey:
Christ Gawain, your total (and, I suspect, willing) lack of perspective is giving me a headache. For real.

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And of course all christians observe Jewish law.

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The Kingdom of Sweden (Protestant, as an aside) incidentally tried applying Old Testament law for a while under the somewhat excessively religious Carl XI if I remember correctly. It kinda sucked, and was abandoned after a decade or so.

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errrrrr .......yep as did the eastern and oriental orthadox churches , then along came Luther and protestantism and they wrote their old testament as well because they didn't like the other versions that other churches wrote .

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Well you will have to showq me as i never read a prostestant bible. But its irrelevant as they dont follow jewish law either. There is no eye for an eye or tooth for a tooth in Christianity.

Blimey Tribesman its hard to credit it , but you actually manage to get worse in your attempts

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What, you mean Muslims weren't allowed to try building empires to the best of their ability like everyone else ?

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Like everyone else?

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Christ Gawain, your total (and, I suspect, willing) lack of perspective is giving me a headache. For real.

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Same to you mate . My heads killing me.

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Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny

Like everyone else?

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Yes, like everyone else. I'm sorry if this sounds offensive, but you do know basic world history right ?

So why should Muslims have been left out of the club ?

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Yes, like everyone else. I'm sorry if this sounds offensive, but you do know basic world history right ?

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Far more than basic. Now you tell me when Christianity went about setting up a caliphate and how many christians today want to take over the world politicaly to promote their religion? Islam has always been spread by the sword. Only the aquistion of Chrisitanity by Rome cause suchthings to be said of christianity. It was Christian clergy and rulers who abused the scriptures to fight in the name of Christ. Since Jesus never preached such trash you cant blame christianity only those who misinterpret it. On the otherside you have Mohammed himself leading the battle.

Hah, I've never read a catholic bible(or maybe I have and didn't know, never seen a bible pray ave maria...) and I don't think the old testament is in any way significantly different between a "catholic bible" and a "protestant bible".

And Gawain is right in saying that christianity is based on the New Testament, the old one is added to most bibles because it shows how promises made in it became true in the new testament etc, but I've also seen bibles which contain only the New Testament...shock, horror...and now I'd like you to tell me where in the New Testament Jesus encourages violence?

What the king of Sweden tried is his own problem and IMO completely irrelevant, otherwise I'm going to use your point Watchman, and claim that atheism leads to violence because of Hitler and Stalin.:dizzy2:
Atheism may not be a religion, but that doesn't necessarily make it better than any religion. ~;)

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Well you will have to showq me as i never read a prostestant bible.

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so your bollox about reading a bible means that it was a catholic or orthadox one which you ridiculously claim they didn't write .
Once again you make rubbish up with absolutely no basis for it .
some things never change eh

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But its irrelevant as they dont follow jewish law either.

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:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: you are absolutely clueless:dizzy2:

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There is no eye for an eye or tooth for a tooth in Christianity.

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you really don't know your scripture do you~:doh: Christian or Jewish scripture it appears you know neither
Lex Talionis old boy .
Jesus endorses Jewish law and speaks in praise of it , Christians must go further than just an eye for an eye . 3 eyes for an eye is one example he gives in the new testament.

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so your bollox about reading a bible means that it was a catholic or orthadox one which you ridiculously claim they didn't write .
Once again you make rubbish up with absolutely no basis for it .
some things never change eh

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Well i could go on about how there is only one correct bible and that the protestant one is just an edditted version but I think Husar covered it all very nicely.

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you are absolutely clueless

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You certainly are. yes their are a few Jewish laws we follow like the 10 commanments but thats about it.

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Jesus endorses Jewish law and speaks in praise of it , Christians must go further than just an eye for an eye . 3 eyes for an eye is one example he gives in the new testament.

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You really are cluless.

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You certainly are. yes their are a few Jewish laws we follow like the 10 commanments but thats about it.

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Oh gawain you are priceless:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:
errrr...isn't that only 6 commandments now or is that a matter of millenia of unresolved debate within Christianity:book:
Learn about scripture and Christainity before you try and talk about it .
You might just be able to make some sense when you write about it then .