Barry Bonds Home run record

Sporting greatness or tainted shadow on a once great game???

What do people think?

From this side of the pond, it stinks - last season, he was the villian, tainted with steroids, nobody liked him. Suddenly, he has approached and then yesterday passed a historic sporting milestone and most people seem to have forgotton the chemical enhanced years that brought him to this moment in time. Do American sport's fans really have such short memories or are they such a nation of hero worshippers that anything is celebrated, no matter how that was achieved??

But every county has its tainted heroes they still worship. I can't think of a British example right now but Lasse Virén (retired runner) is still a very popular figure in Finland in spite of continuing rumours of blood boosting. The same goes for Belgium where Johan Museeuw ( retired bicycle racer) is still immensely popular despite his confession about using doping.

People need heroes and most of them prefer to ignore things that discredit those heroes.

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Originally Posted by King Kurt

Sporting greatness or tainted shadow on a once great game???

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The games been tainted for sometime, he just happens to be the current face of the taint.

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Do American sport's fans really have such short memories or are they such a nation of hero worshippers that anything is celebrated, no matter how that was achieved??

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hhhmmmmm that sounds rather unpleasant depiction of american sports fans but since your asking let me take a stab.

Most fans here dont like bonds because of the roids, however they respect the fact that prior to his physical enhancements (noticable) he was a great (if not the best) baseball player.

Stats:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Holds record for most home runs in a career (756)
Holds record for most home runs in a season (73)
Holds record for most walks in a career (2,540)
Holds record for most MVP awards (7) and consecutive MVP awards (4); (1990, 1992-93, 2001-04). Note: the current version of the MVP award has been given since 1931. Prior to that year, the League Awards were only given to a player once (from 1922-1929) and sometimes not at all (from 1915-1921).
Holds record for most pitchers homered off (446)
Holds record for most consecutive games with a walk (18)
Shares record for consecutive plate appearances with a walk (7)
Holds record for consecutive seasons with 30 or more home runs (13), 1992-2004
Only player in 400 home run and 400 stolen base club
Only player in 500 home run and 500 stolen base club
One of four players in 40-40 club (40 home runs and 40 stolen bases)
Holds record for most consecutive seasons with .600 slugging percentage or higher (8), 1998-2005
5-time SF Giants Player of the Year (1998, 2001-04)
14-Time All-Star (1990, 1992-98, 2000-04, 2007)
7-Time Baseball America NL All-Star OF (1993, 1998, 2000-04)
3-Time Major League Player of the Year (1990, 2001, 2004)
3-Time Baseball America MLB Player of the Year (2001, 2003-04)
8-Time Gold Glove winner for NL Outfielder (1990-94, 1996-98)
12-Time Silver Slugger winner for NL Outfielder (1990-94, 1996-97, 2000-04)
Led the Major Leagues in home runs (1993, 2001)
Led the NL in batting average (2002, 2004)
Led the NL in on base percentage (1991-93, 1995, 2001-04, 2006)
Led the Major Leagues in slugging percentage (1990, 1992-93, 2001-04)
Led the Major Leagues in extra base hits (1992-93, 2001)
Led the Major Leagues in on base percentage (1992, 2001-04)
Led the NL in runs (1992)
Led the NL in RBIs (1993)
Led the NL in walks (1992, 1994-97, 2000-04, 2006)
Led the NL in intentional walks (1992-98, 2002-04, 2006)
Led the NL in runs created (1992-93, 2001-02, 2004)
Led the Major Leagues in total bases (1993, with 365)
Led the Major Leagues in runs created (1993, 2001-02, 2004)
Led the NL in games (1995)
Led the NL in extra base hits (1992-93, 2001)
Led the NL in at bats per home run (1992-93, 1996, 2000-04)
3-Time NL Hank Aaron Award winner (2001-02, 2004)
Led the Major Leagues in batting average (2002, with .370)
Listed at # 6 on The Sporting News' list of the 100 Greatest Baseball Players, the highest-ranked active player, in 2005.
Named a finalist to the Major League Baseball All-Century Team in 1999, but not elected to the team in the fan balloting.
Rating of 352 on Baseball-Reference.com's Hall of Fame monitor (100 is a good HOF candidate); 9th among all hitters, highest among hitters not in HOF yet.
With his father Bobby, leads all father-son combinations in combined home runs (1,088) and stolen bases (975) through August 7, 2007.

Alot of those achiements were done prior to alledged steriods, and those that were accomplished with steriods were concievably done so against competitors with the same enhancements.

I have 4 of his rookie cards as at one time in my life I collected sports stuff. I am indifferent to the record of homeruns and am more impressed with him when in the 90's he was winning gold gloves, and stealing hundreds of bases.

Well I suppose I was looking to get a reaction. The whole affair seems sordid and baseball's authorities seem the biggest failure. Most other sports have had the courage to come down on drug cheats, even at the risk of ruining the sport - this year's Tour de France shows that. But baseball's authorities stood by and watched a few players suddenly increase their ability overnight by using steroids, smashing records by incredible amounts - I read a good article online today that equates Macquire setting the most HRs in a season as somebody suddenly doing a 3 minute mile - and they did nothing about it.

However, the thing that gets me is that last season everybody in the media was down on Bonds - they all seemed to want him to fail and with his injury plagued season it looked like he might retire and the record was safe. This season, he has come back and has broken the record and large sections of the media love him - Yahoo - my main source of baseball info - suddenly had a display on their home page tracking the run in to the record. He even made the BBC TV sports news - with no mention of steroids at all, just the record.

As a Brit, I really enjoy baseball and feel it has a deep and fascinating history. A competition which lasts all summer long is a much more satisfying experience than the normal flash bang quick result that American sport can be. The subtle tactics of the game and its nuances remind me of cricket and its quality has given birth to a rich literature immersed in the tradition and feel of the game. But the whole Bonds thing leaves a bit of a bad taste in the mouth - it feels like baseball has really let itself down.

Finally - I was not getting at American sports fans - I suspect that the vast majority feel similar things to me - I was really getting at the whole circus that surrounds the sport - they have let this happen despite a lot of public wringing of hands.

So - back over to you guys??

Considering that steroids weren't even banned in MLB until 2003, the league itself shoulders most of the blame. This is what you want, this is what you get.

I'm not a Bonds fan, even without roids he was a great player and a total :daisy:.

America is all about better living through chemistry. Woman! Bring me my Viagra and my bovine growth hormone!

I just feel bad for Hammerin' Hank.:no:
He will always be the HR King.

It may be a record, but it's doomed to forever have an asterisk (*) and footnote in any baseball record book.

It remains to be seen if, ten years from now, in the post-steroid phase of Major League Baseball, a "clean" batter can equal or best Bonds' record.

Shadow? Bad for the sport?
Nah that's all bullcrap. If you don't control on doping, or do it badly, don't complain afterwards.

Bonds might have used some, hell maybe every sportsmen takes some. But that's beside the point.
The worst is the role of the press in something as this. Take poor Michael Rasmussen, the guy was winning the Tour, deserved it. But what did the French do, complain till they got him out. I read L'Equipe, if you do it as well you might have seen the articles, outragious.
Not to mention the ASO, wanting to take the power from the UCI.
Or what they did to Armstrong, yeah he won the Tour 7 times, and the greatest cyclist ever (Merckx) only did this 5 times, but is that the proof they need to say he uses doping, for the French it is. I'm not even beginning about that Richard 'dopage' Virenque of theirs. Yeah but he was French.


I'm sorry to say this Louis, but you French are a sad bunch of people indeed.


[/rant]

Personally, I despise Barry Bonds as a human being. First off, he is in court, actually, though not for 'roids. He's there because he LIED to the court. Gee, Barry, that probably wasn't smart, in retrospect. One other thing that really set me off was a couple years ago. It was right at the start of the season, iirc, and he apparently was fed up with the media. So what does he do? He drags his son out to sit by him, and then goes on this spiel against the media, saying "well, congratulations, you've won. You've finally hurt my family enough." You know what, Barry? Most people don't give a damn about you're family, to be honest. Its YOU, not them, the media's after. And stop trying to make the media the bad guy, you've brought this crap upon yourself.

Also, guys, its not just the power hitters who are/were roiding. I forget the guy's name, but a couple years ago, a shortstop for the Tampa Bay Devil Rays was caught using roids. He'd been in the league about 6 or 7 years. Wanna know how many career home runs this guy had? Two. That's right, two. Even the lead off hitters were/are roiding, which tells me that pretty much most baseball players were/are on the juice.

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Originally Posted by greaterkhaan

Even the lead off hitters were/are roiding, which tells me that pretty much most baseball players were/are on the juice.

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Agreed, all the more reason to celebrate this achievement it truly is monumental considering he had to do it against guys who were using performance enhancing drugs.

Aaron or Ruth never had to do that. :thumbsup:

Note: I have been a baseball fan -- and regrettably a Phillies fan :shame: 10k and growing -- for longer than many of you have been alive.

Bonds has accomplished, in its context, an amazing thing. Incredible skill, persistence, and the luck of continued good health all play a role in such a career achievement. It is my sincere belief that hitting a small round leather ball that has been thrown towards you in excess of 70mph (and usually at a trajectory that deviates from the absolute norm as a result of that balls seams) with an even narrower-diameter round wooden bat within a 90-degree arc for a distances in excess of a soccer (football) field's length is arguably the most difficult of all sporting tasks. Bonds has accomplished this repeatedly for his teams. Kudos to him!

As to the perception of "taint:"

No sporting event/league/etc. has ever been free of taint. All of them, throughout history, have reflected the fixations, blind spots, and inequities of their cultures. Baseball is no different.

Helots were not invited to compete at the Olympic games, nor were any of the sons of Cyrus. The most popular event reveled in eye-gouging and arm dislocation. Were those who competed any less champions because their society never thought to make the competition truly open?

Roman charioteers would feed almost ANYTHING to the horses if they thought they could get a win for their leek greens over the hated blues -- and competitors actively attacked one another during "races." It seems likely that many such teams were "doped" to the extent possible with then extant technology. Does this make all of the races "unfair."

Baseball, in the USA, was actively racist for half a century -- since blacks did not play should we discount everything that occurred from 1882-1947?

In the 1880s through the turn of the 20th century, it is distinctly possible that any number of the players were imbibing cocaine -- a popular component in quasi-medicinal tonics of the day -- must all of this be discounted?

Modern players benefit from a radically different medical/nutritional background than players from the "golden age." Does this prevent any comparison or render the efforts of any player invalid?

To look at sports as being somehow "pure," and untainted by the society around it is -- I submit -- inaccurate.


As a baseball fan, I concern myself over differences in the style of the game itself -- makes for lovely what if discussions -- but revel in its consistencies over time.

Bonds may or may not have knowingly broken a rule at some point in his career (and steroids were on a banned substance list long before any testing program was instituted), but absent proof of Bonds having broken those rules, I will simply enjoy his achievement -- and go back to tensely focusing on my Phillies and my hopes that they can pass the Mets and Braves and take their division.

Bonds will reap what he has sown. He himself has stated that this home-run chase was the hardest thing he's ever done. Outside of San Francisco he is still mostly reviled. Yes, he'll have the record, but he'll also have the terrible memories of his pursuit. And he'll only have the record itself for a few years.

Alex Rodriguez, a clean player, just became the youngest person to hit 500 homers. In a few years, ten at most, he will pass Bonds. And he, unlike Bonds or Aaron, will have the overwhelming support of the baseball community behind him.

So enjoy it while you can, Barry. In a few years watch and see how easy A-Rod gets it.

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and go back to tensely focusing on my Phillies and my hopes that they can pass the Mets and Braves and take their division.

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:wall:

It's still Hank Aaron for me.

Oh, and GH - I know one rainy city where the fans won't be so happy with A-rod.

CR

Okay - outside Seattle, Arlington, and San Fran then.

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Originally Posted by King Kurt

Sporting greatness or tainted shadow on a once great game???

What do people think?

From this side of the pond, it stinks - last season, he was the villian, tainted with steroids, nobody liked him. Suddenly, he has approached and then yesterday passed a historic sporting milestone and most people seem to have forgotton the chemical enhanced years that brought him to this moment in time. Do American sport's fans really have such short memories or are they such a nation of hero worshippers that anything is celebrated, no matter how that was achieved??

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well damn Kurt... if ya dont see ppl on tv 4 a while... ya sorta forget... sheesh... callin me a hero worshiper...

If he was found to have used steroids then it should void his stats. If a sport star can't act with integrity and uses drugs then he doesn't deserve any more admiration then a drug user shooting up in a backstreet alley. I don't think pointing out that others cheat makes his success any more admirable, two wrongs don't make a right.

Anti-hero worship away. But a great man is not one who has access to a better medical cabinet. It is also sending mixed messages to the kids, hey look at this guy he does drugs that are illegal in his sport and we admire him. So why not legalise all drugs across the spectrum?

It would be better to glorify the pharmaceutical companies... better still invest in them , they are making records all of their own :greedy:.

All i can say is

756*

Ted Williams is still the greatest hitter of all time. Besides If had to put a top 25 man roster of all time together, Bonds wouldnt even been on it. He was a great player but defintly not the greatest

The man cheated to attain a goal. He has no honor, nor do any of his extollers.

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Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh

!

As to the perception of "taint:"

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Mine's sigh...

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Originally Posted by master of the puppets

All i can say is

757*

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Fixed it for you. :bow: Another one went swimming last night.

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Originally Posted by master of the puppets

All i can say is

756*

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The irony of this when combined with your signature quote from TR is delicious.

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Originally Posted by Strike For The South

Ted Williams is still the greatest hitter of all time.

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I emphatically concur. Ruth, Cobb, Mantle, Mays, Aaron, Wagner, and yes, even Bonds, are all wonderful hitters. The "Splendid Splinter" bests them all.

Maybe we should thaw him out and get his take on the whole thing.:devilish:

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Originally Posted by Don Corleone

The man cheated to attain a goal.

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Prima facie evidence suggests that this is true.

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Originally Posted by Don Corleone

He has no honor,

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As ethics are a central component of honor, I agree.

Bonds also has a miserable rep as a player vis-a-vis interaction with fans, selfishness, and team spirit.

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Originally Posted by Don Corleone

nor do any of his extollers.

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This might be a touch harsh. For those few saying "Who cares about the steroids thing, it's just the way things are" you may be correct.

I remember people doggin Aaron during the '70s as he approached the Babe. He's not worthy, he took too many at bats, he never won championships for his team, etc.

All I'm saying is, absent proof, Bond's achievement stands. All-in-all, I'm more worried about whether the Phils can pick up 4 more games against the Mets in these last weeks.

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Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh

I emphatically concur. Ruth, Cobb, Mantle, Mays, Aaron, Wagner, and yes, even Bonds, are all wonderful hitters. The "Splendid Splinter" bests them all.

Maybe we should thaw him out and get his take on the whole thing.:devilish:

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I'm all for that - tho' the cryoprotectant solution used by his current caretakers, might be deemed a 'performance enhancer', like steroids.

Screw Barry. The guy's a complete jerk, always has been, and he's a cheater. Barry, Sheffield, Giambi, McGwire, Sosa and any of these other bums who we know now are roid-monkeys can go play in a microwave as far as I'm concerned.

but what if we enlarged the feilds and made a seperate league where steroids were MANDATORY, now THAT would be baseball (jk)

:beam:

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Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh

and go back to tensely focusing on my Phillies and my hopes that they can pass the Mets and Braves and take their division.

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The Braves will win the Division... The Philthies don't have the pitching. Ryan Howards and Jimmy Rollins are juicers!!!:beam:
TAINT!!!!

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Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh

I emphatically concur. Ruth, Cobb, Mantle, Mays, Aaron, Wagner, and yes, even Bonds, are all wonderful hitters. The "Splendid Splinter" bests them all.

Maybe we should thaw him out and get his take on the whole thing.:devilish:

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Ted and Patton are the two people I honestly look up to. He was a true American He

Played in MLB
Killed Commies
Cheated on his wife
Drank like a fish
didnt give a damn.:2thumbsup:

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Originally Posted by Devastatin Dave

:beam:
The Braves will win the Division... The Philthies don't have the pitching. Ryan Howards and Jimmy Rollins are juicers!!!:beam:
TAINT!!!!

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There's really no need to juice up at all when you're playing at the Phillies' park.

Excellent point and that brings up the next part of the whole "tainted" affair. Parks are a LOT smaller than they were when my main man Hank was smacking balls out of stadiums. I can only imagine what Hank could have done with the smaller parks, juice, and the lack death threats from rednecks.

I do need to take to task the originator of this threads characterization of Americans' opinion on Bonds. Just because ESPN hangs off this cheaters jock strap like George Michaels in a public restroom doesn't mean that the average baseball fan does the same. I was at the Gateway Grizzlies (Pioneer League, good baseball BTW) game when Bonds hit 755. Everyone boo'd and I mean EVERYONE. Bonds hit his 756 in front of his San Fran-sicko fans. Thats why he got all the cheers. Of course its fitting that he plays in that morally depraved cesspool of a city anyway where there is probably the same amount of bath house attendance as there were in the stadium that night. So no, I would say the majority of American baseball fans weren't to thrilled seeing Barroids hit that jack.

Barry should go die in a fire.

Sincerely,
An American baseball fan.

lol. Yall make it sound like the roids made Bonds a player! He was an automatic 1st ballot guy even before he started jacking them! I also think yall are pretty naive about anabolics. Why does no one talk about Ripken? Or Farve? Guys who play for 16 17 years straghit and dont get hurt! What a miracle! Allot more guys are on these drugs and just be taking anabolics dont not make you better it increases test levels and aids in recovery time but you still hafto bust balls. Sportwriters with an axe to grind are not your best place to get roid info and neither is the news but hey its on TV so it must be true right?

Ripken sucked, Strike. Farve was an admitted drug abuser. Bonds is a sanctimonious cheater. All three, can go jump in a fire.

Sincerely,
Joe Shmo paying 50$ to be at the yard

Ripken played 2358 straghit games and had 3000 hits me lady. Frave is amazing and Joe Shmo wants to see 450 ft home runs not the good ol game. We want to see great athletes they want to stay as long as possible. Supply meet demand

This why I hate sports. That and the bordom of trying to watch them played.

He was a member of the 40-40 club before the steroid scandel...it takes a lot more than steroids to make you a good player. People give him to much **** for it. If the giants had one the world series it would be more of an issue, but this is just a number.

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Originally Posted by Strike For The South

We want to see great athletes they want to stay as long as possible. Supply meet demand

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If someone is taking steroids to gain an unfair advantage in a competitive sport then they are cheating and therefore not great. I want to see how well a person can do not what a chemist can make happen.

If you want a steroid even then it is no longer sport, it might be entertainment... but since the wrestling guys can't even beat a Panda :laugh4: , I find it hard to respect them too.

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Originally Posted by Sasaki Kojiro

If the giants had one the world series it would be more of an issue, but this is just a number.

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They will never win with Bonds and no team he goes to would ever win it either. I saw an intervue of him back in 93 (man, his head looked normal then!!!) with Peter Gammons. He talked about ever since t-ball, he had never won the big one. Since the guy was 4!!! He is a cursed man and would explain possibly his attitude regarding his attitude towards teammates, the media, and the fans. He has only himself it seems. In a way its sad but I don't have much compassion for the man. Anyway, Bonds is a one demintional player now. When he was with Pittsburg he was an exciting 4 out of 5 tool player (his arm sucks, see Sid Bream beating out his throw from left field in 92... Go Braves!!!) and a blast to watch. He's as boring as Mark McGuire now and barely worth watching. God I miss 80's baseball like when the Cards had Coleman, Ozzie, and Willie. That was exciting ball. Homeruns were special then.:no:

I think this is a fairly insightful take on the situation.

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"Say what you want about Bonds, but he's not a murderer, or even an attempted murderer," San Francisco Chronicle reporter and co-author of Game Of Shadows Lance Williams wrote in Sunday's edition. "The only thing I believe Bonds did was inject himself with Winstrol, Deca-Durabolin, insulin, testosterone, synthetic testosterone, testosterone decanoate, human growth hormones, Norbolethone, Trenbolone, Clomid, and possibly commercial racehorse laxatives, all in order to make himself a better athlete. Not to allow himself to gut-shoot a gentleman's club bouncer, but to become a better athlete. A better athlete…it doesn't seem so bad when you think about it like that."

"It's a relief of sorts to see someone putting performance first," Frank Deford said in a New York Times Magazine editorial Sunday. "I think we all believe that Barry has taken steroids, and that they made him into a hulking monster who rewrote the record books. But they didn't turn him into a hulking monster who drugged his wife and children into unconsciousness before strangling them to death and hanging himself from a weight bench. And in these troubled times, Bonds' performance is one we can all reluctantly applaud."

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Great to see that the benchmark for sporting standards is so great. :2thumbsup:

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Originally Posted by Don Corleone

The man cheated to attain a goal. He has no honor, nor do any of his extollers.

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I think he is one of the greatest baseball players of all time as I said in my initial post. By your logic I would have no honor.

I also find it odd how none of the detractors here post thier evidence of his cheating.

Its dishonorable to accuse someone on circumstantial evidence no matter how overwhelming it might be. In addition to that it is dishonorable to dismiss that persons achievements with one broad brush based on the same assumption.

Bonds maybe the villian but having a good knowledge of steriods and thier ability to enhance myself, I know his achievements, not just the homerun record, are monumental on any barometer, even the ones held by those on the highest of moral pearches.

Again, the people playing against him were doing just as many steroids as Mr. Bonds.

Dave, Prole: And I'd like to see YOU hit just ONE home run. You may use as many steroids as you wish in pursuit of this goal.

The thing I don't like is that people seem to forget that he is one of the best home run hitters of all time with or without steroids. He doesn't deserve the all time record but records aren't important anyway.

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Originally Posted by Sasaki Kojiro

The thing I don't like is that people seem to forget that he is one of the best home run hitters of all time with or without steroids. He doesn't deserve the all time record but records aren't important anyway.

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I think the thing that galls most folks is being unable to tell where his natural abilities (impressive; hall of fame caliber) left off and his "enhancement via cheating" (which seems generally acknowledged though no formal hearing has confirmed this) takes over.

Yes, he is the one who put the sweet spot of a round bat onto the sweet spot of a rapidly moving round ball all those times -- as I have suggested above, I consider this the most difficult of sporting skills. Steroids would have little to do with this.

Steroids would also have little to do with a majority of his home runs. After all, in a majority of instances it matters very little if the ball travels 415 feet or 625 -- its scored the same way.

However....how many homers did he hit that went 365 feet that might've traveled only 338 and been caught as an F9 instead of added to the total. Ruth and Mantle may have been drunks and distracted by celebrity syndrome, but they weren't enhancing their performances thereby. Was Bonds? How much did it matter? We'll never know, and that is vexing.

I guess the thing that makes Bonds look most odd is that he peaked in slugging ability at age 36-40, about 5-8 years after the typical "golden" period for most players. Impossible without enhancers? Off course not. But it just doesn't follow the historical pattern -- and baseball has no problem coming up with historical records.


In the long run, the steroid era accomplished its goal. People are now back at the park and watching games. They even have a nice argument to natter on about -- as baseball wonks love to do. They can point to Ruth's having 7 of the top 25 slugging seasons while Bonds has only 4 and all the other fun minutea of a baseball argument. And all will be good.

Until the next strike malfs it up.

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Originally Posted by Stig

Shadow? Bad for the sport?
Nah that's all bullcrap. If you don't control on doping, or do it badly, don't complain afterwards.

Bonds might have used some, hell maybe every sportsmen takes some. But that's beside the point.
The worst is the role of the press in something as this. Take poor Michael Rasmussen, the guy was winning the Tour, deserved it. But what did the French do, complain till they got him out. I read L'Equipe, if you do it as well you might have seen the articles, outragious.

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Uh, are we talking about the same sport here? If poor Michael Rasmussen would not have lied about his whereabouts, but would have made himself available for drug testing like he is required to do, then perhaps his Dutch team wouldn't have felt the need to fire his sorry arse halfway through the Tour, eh?

As for the French complaining...we would complain, wouldn't we? What with his Danish national cycling committee suspending him even before the Tour, but failing to inform the Tour direction about this. Followed by his Dutch team recalling him halfway through the Tour. The French / the Tour direction had little to do with either, except for being outraged at the Danish cycling union for not informing the Tour that there was a suspended Danish cyclist participating, thereby macking a mockery of the most important cycling event of the year.

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Or what they did to Armstrong, yeah he won the Tour 7 times, and the greatest cyclist ever (Merckx) only did this 5 times, but is that the proof they need to say he uses doping, for the French it is.

I'm sorry to say this Louis, but you French are a sad bunch of people indeed.

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Armstrong, Armstrong.... No indeed there is no definitive proof he used, let's say, unnatural means. There is no proof that Bonds used some either. (I think?)
Did they use some? Maybe we'll never know but I think I'll join the sad bunch of people who think they did.
On a more positive note, virtually all of Armstrongs competitors have been caught using dope, or have confessed to having done so. So there is no case of Armstrong cheating on his competitors in this respect. So Armstrong IS the greatest cyclist of his generation, with or without doping. He would've been if everybody was clean and he would've been if nobody was clean.

Just like coffee has different effects on different people so do steroids. Also the range and plethora of enhancements available and the covering up agents (which have their own range of side effects) means that it is highly unlikely that they are using the same cocktail of drugs.

Alls fair in Love and War, sports on the other hand should be done on a level playing field (either all have access to the same range of drugs or none), otherwise you might as well have different sets of rules (a handicap system would be cool)... otherwise it should be labeled as entertainment only like a soap... and really when it comes down to it unless you grow up with a sport or a religion it is very hard to understand why people can become primal in their fandom of an athlete... luckily I was exposed to Union, League, Football (Soccer), Cycling, American Football (Gridiron, Rice and Montana :2thumbsup: ), Australian Football (Aerial Pingpong) and quite a few other sports... I understand that they are rough and tough sports, but ever since the Seoul Olympics I can't stand watching track and field because with each record broken you get your hopes up and then you think hmmm I wonder if the chemists can figure out if they are doping or not... strangely though while I find the athletes in The Tour who cheat disgraceful, I am gaining in admiration for the way the officials have gone out of their way to find cheats (unlike the vast majority of professional sports) and I am also gaining in admiration for the sponsors who are yanking out their sponsorship to athletes caught cheating... I would probably support a company more that actually sponsored the anti-doping drug agencies...