Christian Boot Camp Drags 15-Year-Old Girl Behind Van

Stories like this make my blood boil. The concept of sending a troubled child to a boot camp is a little iffy in the first place, especially when such camps are not regulated in any meaningful way.

Here's the ugliness:

Aug. 10, 2007, 8:53PM

Girl allegedly dragged behind van at boot camp

© 2007 The Associated Press

BANQUETE, Texas — The director of a Christian boot camp and an employee were arrested Friday for allegedly dragging a 15-year-old girl behind a van after she fell behind the group during a morning run, authorities said.

Charles Eugene Flowers and Stephanie Bassitt of San Antonio-based Love Demonstrated Ministries, a 32-day boot camp, were arrested on aggravated assault charges for the alleged June 12 incident.

The two are accused of tying the girl to the van with a rope then dragging her, according to an arrest affidavit filed Wednesday by the Nueces County Sheriff's Department.

Both remained in Nueces County Jail late Friday on $100,000 bond each.

A call to Love Demonstrated Ministries was not immediately returned Friday. No listing was found for Bassitt. An answering machine at a listing for Flowers cut off during an attempt to leave a message Friday.

Flowers, the camp's director, allegedly ordered Bassitt to run alongside the girl after she fell behind, the affidavit said. When the girl stopped running, Bassitt allegedly yelled at her and pinned her to the ground while Flowers tied the rope to her, according to the affidavit.

The girl's mother gave investigators photos of her daughter's injuries that were taken at a hospital where the girl was treated and a sworn statement from a witness who claimed to see the girl being dragged on her stomach at least three times.

Here's the camp's web site, which may or may not crash your browser.

A couple of questions for my fellow Orgahs: Is it possible my tax dollars went to support this camp? I'm worried about the Faith Based Initiatives, and the haphazard way the money's been sloshed about. I would be outraged if this group received Federal money.

Secondly, is there any mechanism for keeping an eye on these boot camps for kids? In theory, they sound fine, but the potential for abuse is so high, I just don't know about them. Troubled, misbehaving kids, taken away from all parental supervision, put under the care of adults who may or may not be psychotic ... I just don't know.

I rather doubt those places get Fed money, although Texas state might contribute - and the original source of tHAT money could be Federal. I pulled this quotation from another camp website:

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Camp Huawni is a licensed resident camp under the Texas Youth Camp Health and Safety Act. The oversight agency is the Texas Department of Health. The camp is inspected regularly with its food preparation, water system, staff requirements,

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So if it's an overnight/resident camp, a Texas bureau does monitor it. Most of the websites I've visited for Texas summer camps (Man, there are lots of faith-based ones) proudly proclaim their licensed, state-monitored status. Not so "Love Demonstrated Ministries" camp website.

Another local report "http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20219073/, addresses LDM camp's parental consent form, including the phrase:

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"I realize that Christian boot camp is a strenuous and highly intense program. I further realize that the possibility of accident, injury or even fatality to my child does exist."

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Who would sign such a document?

edit: crap; that link went 404 just after I wrote this. Maybe it'll be up again later. Sorry.

The whole idea of a "Christian" boot camp sounds dangerous, sounds like an Al-Qaida training camp to me.

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Who would sign such a document?

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So true

It bothers me as well, as I'm not keen on religion. Faith? Yes. Belief? Yes. Religion? No.

The idea of religious camps is not one I'm fond of, for social and theological religions.

That said, "Brat Camp" is a television show over here where troubled teenages are sent to a "Boot Camp" in America for eight weeks or so to straighten them out. It seems to work, but then so would national service.

They showed Brat Camp here in the U.S. as well. It certainly looked effective, but everyone would be on their best behavior for the TV cameras, now wouldn't they? I'm still ambivalent about boot camps for kids. All it would take is one psycho to make the whole thing a nightmarish exercise in child endangerment.

True, but there's also a thing "Bad Lads Army" where some undesirables are put through 12 weeks of 1950's National Service training. At the end of that a lot of them join straight up. One guy actually said he had to get into the army before he slipped back into his old ways.

Of course, there were also a couple of guys who beat up their fellow recruits and were ejected after a stay in the guard room.

Btw, Lemur, comiserations. The new avater is freaky as well.:clown:

My guess is that the girl is just fine, suffered no real injuries, and is a crybaby.

EDIT: That said, who would drag a trainee behind a truck on a rope? There are easier ways to break someone's will.

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Originally Posted by Stig

The whole idea of a "Christian" boot camp sounds dangerous, sounds like an Al-Qaida training camp to me.

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It sounds like an oxymoron (not much room for forgiveness in a boot camp), but I can't see why it sounds like a terrorist training camp. Is it the Christian bit or the boot camp bit or just a prejudice that all religious people are the same?

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Originally Posted by Del Arroyo

My guess is that the girl is just fine, suffered no real injuries, and is a crybaby.

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Seems doubtful at the moment. Unless you were using sarcasm, and forgot your [sarcasm] tag ...

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Originally Posted by Article

The girl's mother gave investigators photos of her daughter's injuries that were taken at a hospital where the girl was treated and a sworn statement from a witness who claimed to see the girl being dragged on her stomach at least three times.

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It's outrageous that such people call themselves Christians.:shame:

And I don't like the idea of bootcamps either.

Lemur's a moderator? Woah! When did this curse fall upon us? :beam: Congrats!

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Originally Posted by Lemur

A couple of questions for my fellow Orgahs: Is it possible my tax dollars went to support this camp? I'm worried about the Faith Based Initiatives, and the haphazard way the money's been sloshed about. I would be outraged if this group received Federal money.

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Just because a few rogue employees are criminals does not mean all outreach programs are crooked.

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Secondly, is there any mechanism for keeping an eye on these boot camps for kids? In theory, they sound fine, but the potential for abuse is so high, I just don't know about them. Troubled, misbehaving kids, taken away from all parental supervision, put under the care of adults who may or may not be psychotic ... I just don't know.

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Your reservations are reasonable. Sometimes these programs can be incredible helpful, and other times they can be sheer horror if the program is not properly ran.

I would agree with standards of oversight on this for sure. I am personally familiar with an incident at North Star that ended in a students death.

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Originally Posted by TIME Magazine

On March 1, 1994, Aaron's North Star adventure began -- an ordeal that resembled a desert hell and that ended one month later with the return of Aaron's emaciated corpse to his parents.

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Originally Posted by Divinus Arma

Lemur's a moderator? Woah! When did this curse fall upon us? :beam: Congrats!

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No cause for worry, my purview is far from the Backroom, so I can go on posting outrageous stories back here for the foreseeable future. I might have to chill a little if they ever asked me to moderate the Backroom, but with any luck that won't happen.

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Originally Posted by Divinus Arma

Just because a few rogue employees are criminals does not mean all outreach programs are crooked.

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When I used the word "haphazard," I wasn't trying to imply that every faith-based initiative is a crooked op with a P.O. Box at Kinkos. But after reading David Kuo's account of how the Religious Right Placation Program was run in the White House, I'm painfully aware of how little oversight and accountability there is in that honey pot.

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Originally Posted by Divinus Arma

Sometimes these programs can be incredible helpful, and other times they can be sheer horror if the program is not properly ran.

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I guess that gets to the root of my reservations. Without some sort of oversight, however onerous that might prove, these boot camps seem like a disaster waiting to happen. Adults can say "no" to an unreasonable request, whatever the setting. Teens are subject to in loco parentis, and that means they have no real protection from an insane boot camp counselor. Just seems ... dangerous. More than the usual run-of-the-mill dangerous.

Some parents are at the end of their ropes with kids.
They can't deal with them and the idea of a
Christian (good moral values) + Boot Camp (rough and disciplined) is an appealing option.

While I am not defending the camp counselors. I'm saying that this is the last option to resurrect their bad parenting and it is boot camp. They figure that anything with that kinda clause is simply for protection and not so that camp counselors can drag a girl behind the car.

The parents should have done a simple search to see if there was oversight, or some form of governmental review. It is bad parenting and no review of their options. To me it seems like a 'Trojan Horse' scam. They slap 'Christian' and 'Boot Camp' onto a camp, run them like a gulag, then collect for the intense workout.

If her injuries were so serious, then how come they aren't listed? I'll tell you why-- because they are boo-boos. Light to mid-grade boo-boos.

Not that this excuses the dragging behind a truck in general.

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Originally Posted by Duke of Gloucester

It sounds like an oxymoron (not much room for forgiveness in a boot camp), but I can't see why it sounds like a terrorist training camp. Is it the Christian bit or the boot camp bit or just a prejudice that all religious people are the same?

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The combination of the two. Muslim Terrorist Training Camps are nothing more than Muslim Boot Camps.

It's amazing how far some people will go to defend something this bad just because it has "Christian" tagged on it. :dizzy2:

Jesus Christ (pun intended), what's wrong with you people?

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Originally Posted by Stig

The combination of the two. Muslim Terrorist Training Camps are nothing more than Muslim Boot Camps.

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Not according to the accepted definition of boot camps they aren't. Muslim Training camps are attended volutarily by all sorts of young Muslim men often well-behaved ones whose later involvement in atrocities baffles friends and family. Boot camps have an element coercion and correction. Or putting it another way, the people in the camp mentioned in the article may be un-Christian and cruel and unfit to woark with children but I doubt they are training the inmates to participate in terrorists attacks.

You don't have to be a terrorist to be dangerous.
Personally I think fundamentalistic Christians are more dangerous than suicide bombers. I see fundamentalists every day, I've never seen a suicide bomber.

What exactly is a boot camp in this context? I thought boot camp had to do with the military?

Horrible that anyone can get the idea to drag someone behind a car, the potential for serious or lethal injury is huge, not to mention that it's almost certain it will cause aesthetical damaged with ruined skin in the face and on the body. The dangerous and deep skin damages that can occur can likely give huge scars or prevent the skin from ever growing out again, or cause cancer. So this was supposed to be done to a little girl by grown up human beings, if we can call them that, who were entrusted to take proper care of this girl?

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Originally Posted by article

The director of a Christian boot camp and an employee were arrested Friday for allegedly dragging a 15-year-old girl behind a van after she fell behind the group during a morning run, authorities said.

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And this is the part of the article that made me most shocked: the enforcing of cadavre discipline and blind obedience on a 15 year old girl :dizzy: , calling her disobedient when she's not physically strong enough to run as fast as they order her to! To punish the girl for that is pure sadism, to break her down mentally, and turning an innocent little girl into a mindless obedient zoombie, a mental slave who thinks of herself as useless, both the prerequisite for dictatorship and psychological despotism, and very similar to the methods employed by violent husbands in breaking down their wives.

Is the purpose of this boot camp to brainwash little girls into blind obedience towards whatever group leads these camps, and low self-esteem and fear, and/or push her into a career of crime? It's purpose surely can't be to bring any positive things or help to these girls in any way :no: Whichever groups control these camps probably should be monitored by the FBI or similar, as such type of brainwashing camps might very well behind them have political bodies with an ambition to claim power through a coup.

This ''camp'' looks diplorable if that is what they do to those who fall behind, the very idea of ''punishing'' people is counter christian

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Originally Posted by Byzantine Mercenary

This ''camp'' looks diplorable if that is what they do to those who fall behind, the very idea of ''punishing'' people is counter christian

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I agree, such a camp isn't Christian. A Christian would not send a way an own child to a sadist camp for "undesirables" because the child doesn't live up to the parents' (often too high) expectations, but instead:
1. think of how to become a better parent
2. not demonize the own child as undesirable or evil, but analyze what his/her faults are, and try to lead the child off those paths, while also rewarding the child for the things the child does well
3. making the child feel content and satisfied about being morally neutral (i.e. neither good nor evil), as that's better than most human beings ever become anyway during a lifetime. Not just punishing "sins", but also forgiving them, and rewarding neutral and good behaviors. Especially rememeber to reward neutral behavior. A child that feels content with moral neutrality, tends to eventually manage go further than neutrality, as opposed to children who feel stressed and insufficient when merely being capable of making up for all his/her evilness by good, who often descend into evilness when they come to the realization that nothing they can do will ever make them good enough.
4. not show double moral standards
5. show love to the child

This camp represents the opposite of this in all ways: conveniently for the parents explaining away all the faults of the parent as being errors of the child, demonizing the child as undesirable and evil, and punishing moral neutral actions and other things which are not sins, showing double standards by committing brutal sins towards the child (as the car dragging) and still expecting the child to not become sinful, and replacing love for the child by contempt and hate.

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A Christian would not send a way an own child to a sadist camp

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You make it sounds as if a Muslim or a Hindu would do that


:bounce:

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Originally Posted by Stig

You don't have to be a terrorist to be dangerous.
Personally I think fundamentalistic Christians are more dangerous than suicide bombers. I see fundamentalists every day, I've never seen a suicide bomber.

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Oh yes, those nuts telling us the end of the world is coming are far more dangerous than the one's that are actually trying to end the world. You're a real mental giant.

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It's amazing how far some people will go to defend something this bad just because it has "Christian" tagged on it.

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There are a few posters defending the camp because it sets a bad name to Christianity.
While many of you may scoff about Christianity and how bad it is, ruining teen minds and all that, sometimes these things are fringe elements.

Suicide bombers aren't a trend in Islamic studies. Not everyone appreciates or approves of suicide bombing. To say that all Muslim Boot Camps are 'Islamic training grounds' is ridiculous to the extreme. Some might be but on the whole most religious camps try to provide an enlightening and faith-filled experience.

You shouldn't kill a herd because one injured the farmer. Or because the cow had 'Foot and Mouth' (except in UK of course.)

Is the point to make disruptive children responsable citizens? Or, to torture them into being good christians?

A better idea:
http://www.youthranches.org/

Give them honest-hard work and responsability - that works. Harassment serves no purpose, except to punish.
:balloon2:

That is what the parents probably thought they were doing. They expected a hard-working, god-loving, faith and work oriented work camp. They didn't research or read the fine print, and this is the result.

Long Live Texas? ...hmmmmm *scratches goatee*

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Originally Posted by Devastatin Dave

Oh yes, those nuts telling us the end of the world is coming are far more dangerous than the one's that are actually trying to end the world. You're a real mental giant.

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How big is the chance a suicide bomber will hit me? About as big as the world ending tomorrow I think.

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Originally Posted by Stig

You don't have to be a terrorist to be dangerous.
Personally I think fundamentalistic Christians are more dangerous than suicide bombers. I see fundamentalists every day, I've never seen a suicide bomber.

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What did christian fundamentalists ever do to you? :inquisitive:

You see? Christianity is evil :clown:


Anyway, I concur with most what Legio said.

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If her injuries were so serious, then how come they aren't listed?

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Is it really that hard to follow links ?

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Is it possible my tax dollars went to support this camp?

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Yep

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Most of the websites I've visited for Texas summer camps (Man, there are lots of faith-based ones) proudly proclaim their licensed, state-monitored status. Not so "Love Demonstrated Ministries" camp website.

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LDM is exempt because its courses are shorter than what would legally require licensing and monitoring .

I knew it.
Look at the number of Tribesman's posts!
6,668!


How long is required for state licensing to be put into effect?

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Originally Posted by Kralizec

What did christian fundamentalists ever do to you? :inquisitive:

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Have you ever said "godd...." (you know what I mean) in the nice little place called Rijssen? I have.

Now you have to tell us what happened next

I pretty much agree with what Legio said.

Also, I'd just like to add, boot camps for kids (or 15 year olds) are a bad idea. They are not physically nor emotionally mature. If something like this has to exist, then I'd expect there to be at least serious reasons needed to send a kid to these camps. Now it seems parents can just decide to put their kids there and the kids have no say in it, even if they are teenagers (can be trialled as an adult but can't refuse to go to 'torture camp'...).

I say take all those kids away from their parents for their own good, with the exception of those that are there because they were placed there by the state/government or those that have a recent criminal record (and a habit of reoffending).

Reminds me of those 'schools' in South America where rich Americans can send their kids if they 'don't show enough love' for their parents. Wish i had a link to an article about those.

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Originally Posted by Tribesman

Is it really that hard to follow links ?

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Authorities interviewed on Friday could not say how far the teenager was allegedly dragged. Her mother complained to authorities after boot camp personnel took her daughter to get treated for scrapes and bruises on her stomach, legs and arms.

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I await your next cryptically inane commentary with less than keen anticipation.

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Originally Posted by Marshal Murat

I knew it.
Look at the number of Tribesman's posts!
6,668!

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And that matters how?:inquisitive:

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Originally Posted by Del Arroyo

I await your next cryptically inane commentary with less than keen anticipation.

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You're not trying to say that some "scrapes and bruises" are not outrageous enough to make a story, are you? :inquisitive:

They're humiliating and injuring a 15 year old girl (even if she was hard to raise she wouldn't deserve that) and as if they had never read a word of Jesus Christ, they dare call themselves Christians. That's outrageous enough for me, put them in prison if you want (for the former, the latter is hardly against the law). :thumbsdown:

Boot camp is for soldiers, not religious brainwash.

Besides, what kind of drill instructor punishes the individual?
Collective punishment sergeant. Collective punishment.
And if the soldier is not fit enough, make sure he/she has at least made the effort (exhausted) if you at all decide to punish.
Many times boot camp is voluntary, and the answer to individual punishment is to ask them to quit.

Again... Boot camp is designed to make soldiers out of youth, not to treat oposition to parent beliefs.
Isn't there religious freedom in the US? and can't an individual decide what to believe without parent consent at the age of 15? (That's how it is here at least).

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Originally Posted by Sigurd Fafnesbane

Boot camp is for soldiers, not religious brainwash.

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Some "Chrisitans" in the US somehow mix the teaching of love with the US warrior culture and then you end up with such bad things. Maybe they even call them warriors of peace and love or some such thing.:dizzy2:

Wow, what behaviour, and from people setting themselves up as some sort of moral example, too. That really "Demonstrated Love" :no:

Should hand these folks over to the navy who can demonstrate the love of a good old fashioned keel-hauling, IMHO.

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Originally Posted by Kralizec

What did christian fundamentalists ever do to you? :inquisitive:

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Let's see:

- They try to make me feel bad for drinking
- They try to make me feel bad for having sex
- Between the age of 15-19, if not for their negative influence on girl's(peoples) willingness to have sex, I could at least have doubled the number of women I've had, perhaps more
- Since I am not married, but living with my partner, I do not receive the same benefits as a married couple, because I won't get married
- Sex is a taboo largely thanks to them
- They have made threats about my physical safety
- They waste my tax money

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

- Between the age of 15-19, if not for their negative influence on girl's(peoples) willingness to have sex, I could at least have doubled the number of women I've had, perhaps more

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This has nothing to do with Christian fundamentalism.
This is due to the fact that there are parents out there that actually have more than two brain cells.

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Originally Posted by Sigurd Fafnesbane

This has nothing to do with Christian fundamentalism.
This is due to the fact that there are parents out there that actually have more than two brain cells.

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Teaching that sex is a sin and something you should put off until you are married(in a smaller or bigger degree), is certainly something we've gotten from the religious nutters. There's nothing bad about having sex at all, so why else should one not want to have it?

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Originally Posted by Husar

You're not trying to say that some "scrapes and bruises" are not outrageous enough to make a story, are you? :inquisitive:

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The behavior of the camp counselors is of course outrageous and cries out for official intervention. My only point has been that the actual harm to the girl was superficial. Someone called me on it, and I provided supporting evidence, which is a routine courtesy in an online forum.

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

Teaching that sex is a sin and something you should put off until you are married(in a smaller or bigger degree), is certainly something we've gotten from the religious nutters. There's nothing bad about having sex at all, so why else should one not want to have it?

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I am just speaking as a father of two girls.
No sex until they are 21.:whip:

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Originally Posted by Sigurd Fafnesbane

I am just speaking as a father of two girls.
No sex until they are 21.:whip:

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Lucky for you I'm not single now....Ah forget it, I'll do them both anyway! ~D At the same time, with a midget and a cow!

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

Let's see:

- ...
- Since I am not married, but living with my partner, I do not receive the same benefits as a married couple, because I won't get married
- Sex is a taboo largely thanks to them
- They have made threats about my physical safety
- ...

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And you live in Norway?
I tought that Scandinavian countries and their inhabitants were fairly secular.

- In Belgium you get similar rights when you live together (if you sign a certain agreement). I'm sure a lot of other countries have a similar possibility, but Norway hasn't?

- Sex is taboo? Could I have an example of this in the Norwegian society?

- Threats to you personaly? And you're sure you live in Europe.

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

Lucky for you I'm not single now....Ah forget it, I'll do them both anyway! ~D At the same time, with a midget and a cow!

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You'd have to get past me. And that basic combat training from the army will not help you out in a tough spot here. Just ask Divinus Arma about getting @ss kicked by a sailor. :skull:

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Originally Posted by Peasant Phill

And you live in Norway?
I tought that Scandinavian countries and their inhabitants were fairly secular.

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We are, fortunately... But we still have our share of leftovers from old times...

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Originally Posted by Peasant Phill

- In Belgium you get similar rights when you live together (if you sign a certain agreement). I'm sure a lot of other countries have a similar possibility, but Norway hasn't?

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We do too. However, I won't get the same rights as a married couple. I have a lot of the same, however, some of them I wont get until I marry(which is probably never). If my girlfriend gets injured in an accident and gets shipped off to the hospital, her parents can deny me access to her there. As her partner, I'm not counted as family, however, a husband is.

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Originally Posted by Peasant Phill

- Sex is taboo? Could I have an example of this in the Norwegian society?

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Well, not like in the 50's, of course. However, you wouldn't talk about sex to your grandmother, now would you? ~;)

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Originally Posted by Peasant Phill

- Threats to you personaly? And you're sure you live in Europe.

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Yup, I refused to "rise and confess my belief" in church. The only thing preventing me getting my ass kicked, was my uniform(and theirs) and the MP's hanging around...

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Originally Posted by Sigurd Fafnesbane

You'd have to get past me. And that basic combat training from the army will not help you out in a tough spot here. Just ask Divinus Arma about getting @ss kicked by a sailor. :skull:

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What do you think I'm bringing the midget for? :laugh4:

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

Let's see:

- They try to make me feel bad for drinking
- They try to make me feel bad for having sex
- Between the age of 15-19, if not for their negative influence on girl's(peoples) willingness to have sex, I could at least have doubled the number of women I've had, perhaps more
- Since I am not married, but living with my partner, I do not receive the same benefits as a married couple, because I won't get married
- Sex is a taboo largely thanks to them

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You are very sex centric, guess you fear the days when your "ability" is not as good anymore as it is now. For me girls are a lot more than just sex, you almost sound like you degrade them to just that, though I guess you don't really do that.

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

- They have made threats about my physical safety

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Sounds criminal, not christian, maybe you could explain.

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

- They waste my tax money

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Is it still your money after you gave it to the government? Also I thought we germans were the only ones left paying church tax?

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You'd have to get past me. And that basic combat training from the army will not help you out in a tough spot here. Just ask Divinus Arma about getting @ss kicked by a sailor. :skull:

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Go, Siggy, go! :belly: :cheerleader: :knight: :cheerleader: :belly:

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Originally Posted by Husar

You are very sex centric, guess you fear the days when your "ability" is not as good anymore as it is now. For me girls are a lot more than just sex, you almost sound like you degrade them to just that, though I guess you don't really do that.

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Well, the reason we are on this planet at all is to reproduce, isn't it? Can't do that without ze sex... And I don't really talk about women, I talk about sex, for both genders... Sex is being oppressed, which IMO is a very bad thing. I can't see anything bad about it, so people should feel free to do it whenever they want to whoever they want(yes, if everyone involved agrees, of course...), and not have society point their finger at them. Christian fundamentalists points a VERY big finger.

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Originally Posted by Husar

Sounds criminal, not christian, maybe you could explain.

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Just as christian and criminal as muslim terrorist...remember, we're talking fundamentalists here, not your everyday worshipper ~;)

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Originally Posted by Husar

Is it still your money after you gave it to the government? Also I thought we germans were the only ones left paying church tax?

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No church tax, however, we do have a state church that is financed over the state budget, and our foreign aid is mostly eaten up by missonaries, instead of the corrupt warmongering presidents we all want to support... They need a new Rolls Royce, not a bible dammit!

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Originally Posted by Husar

Go, Siggy, go! :belly: :cheerleader: :knight: :cheerleader: :belly:

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We'll see after he has encountered Günther... :hide:

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

We do too. However, I won't get the same rights as a married couple. I have a lot of the same, however, some of them I wont get until I marry(which is probably never). If my girlfriend gets injured in an accident and gets shipped off to the hospital, her parents can deny me access to her there. As her partner, I'm not counted as family, however, a husband is.

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Well, that's the fault of your government and not of the christian fundamnetalists. Unles they have invaded the Norwegian parliament:help:

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

Well, not like in the 50's, of course. However, you wouldn't talk about sex to your grandmother, now would you? ~;)

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Well actually I do sometimes with mine but that depends on the person of course. It's hardly the fault of Christian fundamentalists that you tend to avoid talking about sex with your grandmother unless they have infiltrated her as well:inquisitive:
(seriously, unless some christian sect has deluded the mind of your grandmother, it is not their fault)


I'm getting the feeling that you're confusing a lumbering christian tradition in the Norwegian society with deliberate actions from christian fundamentalists in order to forge their religion on people against their will.

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Originally Posted by Peasant Phill

I'm getting the feeling that you're confusing a lumbering christian tradition in the Norwegian society with deliberate actions from christian fundamentalists in order to forge their religion on people against their will.

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He is just frustrated that his girlfriend has put on the chastity belt her father gave her for her birthday. :beam:

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Originally Posted by Stig

Have you ever said "godd...." (you know what I mean) in the nice little place called Rijssen? I have.

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Did you get any lashes for it? Or at least some death threats?

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

- They try to make me feel bad for drinking
- They try to make me feel bad for having sex
- Between the age of 15-19, if not for their negative influence on girl's(peoples) willingness to have sex, I could at least have doubled the number of women I've had, perhaps more
- Since I am not married, but living with my partner, I do not receive the same benefits as a married couple, because I won't get married
- Sex is a taboo largely thanks to them
- They have made threats about my physical safety
- They waste my tax money

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Uh, my question was inspired by Stig's statement of feeling more (physically) threatened by christian fundamentalists rather than muslim ones.



How about socialists? ~;)
They
- waste my tax money by handing it out to deliberately unemployed parasites
- after taking half your income in taxes, still scorn you for being wealthier than some others
- socialist extremists have actually killed people here in my country, christian extrmists didn't to my knowledge
- until not so long ago, eastern Europe was an impoverished sinkhole entirely thanks to them
- killed more people in the 20th century then all religious violence put together
- they annoy me

I'm not a christian myself, mind you...and I still don't have the slightest desire to discuss sex with my grandmother :inquisitive:

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Originally Posted by Husar

Is it still your money after you gave it to the government? Also I thought we germans were the only ones left paying church tax?

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Italy contributes to the Vatican yearly from its tax income - though if you so chose you can fill out your tax forms so to prevent your own money from going to them.

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Originally Posted by Peasant Phill

Well, that's the fault of your government and not of the christian fundamnetalists. Unles they have invaded the Norwegian parliament:help:



Well actually I do sometimes with mine but that depends on the person of course. It's hardly the fault of Christian fundamentalists that you tend to avoid talking about sex with your grandmother unless they have infiltrated her as well:inquisitive:
(seriously, unless some christian sect has deluded the mind of your grandmother, it is not their fault)


I'm getting the feeling that you're confusing a lumbering christian tradition in the Norwegian society with deliberate actions from christian fundamentalists in order to forge their religion on people against their will.

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Well, 100 years ago, we were all christian fundamentalists. The flaws I listed, are things remaining from that day. Of course it's not a fault of fundamentalists today, although they are struggling to keep it that way. I blame our traditions first, but our fundamentalists second, for trying to send us back to the 50's. Fortunately for us all though, they are failing... I think the last poll showed that only 40% of us believed in a god at all, so the number of christians is fortunately low...

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Originally Posted by Kralizec

Uh, my question was inspired by Stig's statement of feeling more (physically) threatened by christian fundamentalists rather than muslim ones.

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Well then, I must say with Stig - I have been physically threatened by christian fundamentalists, but not from muslim ones.

Oh, and don't confuse m-l's with socialists. As a socialist, I have no more in common with them than say a neo-con....

Also, you shouldn't blame eastern-europe's poverty entirely on them, they've been poor for centuries, if not all the time.

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Originally Posted by Kralizec

How about socialists? ~;)
They
- waste my tax money by handing it out to deliberately unemployed parasites
- after taking half your income in taxes, still scorn you for being wealthier than some others
- socialist extremists have actually killed people here in my country, christian extrmists didn't to my knowledge
- until not so long ago, eastern Europe was an impoverished sinkhole entirely thanks to them
- killed more people in the 20th century then all religious violence put together
- they annoy me

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Owwwwwwwwwwwww :2thumbsup:

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

Well then, I must say with Stig - I have been physically threatened by christian fundamentalists, but not from muslim ones.

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My bet is that a father or two of your girl friends falls under this category. :yes:

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Oh, and don't confuse m-l's with socialists. As a socialist, I have no more in common with them than say a neo-con....

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This from someone complaining about paying taxes... Aren't you a student BTW?

...

Oh and VIF still sucks :laugh4:

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Originally Posted by Sigurd Fafnesbane

My bet is that a father or two of your girl friends falls under this category. :yes:

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Nah... Never had a problem with that actually... But I have a midget to deal with them anyway.

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Originally Posted by Sigurd Fafnesbane

This from someone complaining about paying taxes... Aren't you a student BTW?

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A student with a full time job, paying 36% in taxes ~;)

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Originally Posted by Sigurd Fafnesbane

Oh and VIF still sucks :laugh4:

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Blasphemy!

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

Well, the reason we are on this planet at all is to reproduce, isn't it? Can't do that without ze sex... And I don't really talk about women, I talk about sex, for both genders... Sex is being oppressed, which IMO is a very bad thing. I can't see anything bad about it, so people should feel free to do it whenever they want to whoever they want(yes, if everyone involved agrees, of course...), and not have society point their finger at them. Christian fundamentalists points a VERY big finger.

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But once it's generally accepted and everybody has it everyday on the open street, all the excitement is gone as there is nothing special about it anymore. You will get used to it like you get used to watching TV and falling asleep while doing so......
Your goal may be honourable, but you might end up destroying what you love so much. Oh and I have spoken to christians about sex, maybe they weren't fundamentalistic enough but they didn't blame me for anything and my mom would still love me if I had sex before marriage, she says she wouldn't encourage it but it's a thing between God and me. and no, my mom wasn't the only person I talked to about sex, you can make your jokes anyway.:laugh4:

note to self: this forum is evil and possessed and makes me more and more liberal.:dizzy2:

another note to self: stop talking about mommy.

Oh and who is Günther? Your nasty chihuahua? Would fit the midget description as well.

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Well, the reason we are on this planet at all is to reproduce, isn't it? Can't do that without ze sex... And I don't really talk about women, I talk about sex, for both genders... Sex is being oppressed, which IMO is a very bad thing. I can't see anything bad about it, so people should feel free to do it whenever they want to whoever they want(yes, if everyone involved agrees, of course...), and not have society point their finger at them.

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L O L.

I'm sorry, but I highly doubt the reason you are so supportive of free sex everywhere is for the continuation of the human species.

Now, to me, it seems that you are just interested in the pleasure that comes from sex, and do your best to not have to deal with any long term consequences.

You know why it's been called 'making love' - because sex used to mean something, and it was about creation of new life. People like yourself have turned it from an act of great meaning and commitment into a shallow, brief moment of physical pleasure. And with that, modern men have become more consumed with temporary and instant gratification and have lost character.

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note to self: this forum is evil and possessed and makes me more and more liberal.

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Don't give into the dark side, Husar! :beam:

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A student with a full time job, paying 36% in taxes

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36% ?! That is the highest income tax bracket (or very near it) hear in the US. Or are you a CEO?

Crazed Rabbit

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Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit

People like yourself have turned it from an act of great meaning and commitment into a shallow, brief moment of physical pleasure. And with that, modern men have become more consumed with temporary and instant gratification and have lost character.

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Um, well, as long as the thread's getting completely derailed, allow me to respond to this. "Modern" man is hardly unique in liking sex for the pleasure aspect. That's, uh, not really new. People have been complaining about kids getting frisky since the beginning of recorded history. Heck, read some medieval tracts on the subject of lust, and how its pervasive influence is destroying society. Better yet, just read the Canterbury Tales.

Lust is not an innovation, and the desire to make sexytime with lots of women is not modern. See Don Juan, see Casanova, John Wilmot, etc. etc. etc.

And this ties in to dangerous teen boot camps because, um, because ... because everybody knows that sex happens at camp. Yeah, that's it.

True about lust being as old as man, but it is only in the present that it has become much easier to avoid the traditional ramifications due to contraceptives.

CR

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Originally Posted by Lemur

And this ties in to dangerous teen boot camps because, um, because ... because everybody knows that sex happens at camp. Yeah, that's it.

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:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:

So; are we done examining the rough treatment at boot camp? Some posters have used the incident as an opportunity to bash religions - which is not allowed in general (the saving grace was posters describing their own personal reasons for eschewing belief). Continuing down the "bash" road could get some members into trouble, so I caution all to think twice, and make further posts relevant, civil, and respectful of the beliefs of others.

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Did you get any lashes for it? Or at least some death threats?

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Death threats yes, not in the way of:
DIE PAGAN!!!
But more of:
You won't come in heaven when you die (after which they look like hoping I die soon, preferably by their own hands).

Next to that HoreTore is right

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Originally Posted by Stig

Death threats yes, not in the way of:
DIE PAGAN!!!
But more of:
You won't come in heaven when you die (after which they look like hoping I die soon, preferably by their own hands).

Next to that HoreTore is right

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Man Stig that sounds deeply traumatising indeed, will you ever recover?

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

Well, the reason we are on this planet at all is to reproduce, isn't it? Can't do that without ze sex... And I don't really talk about women, I talk about sex, for both genders... Sex is being oppressed, which IMO is a very bad thing.

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I almost forgot, but the christians I know usually have plenty of kids, which means two or more, they just wait until they get married. Many atheist capitalist couples of the modern world on the other hand, like to keep all their money for themselves and go on holidays all the time instead of raising kids, they need their freedom, you know. I'm not saying all atheists or christians do that, I'm just saying there are different tendencies.

You yourself say you have slept with so many women, so where are all those kids from you? ~;)
Christians can have a lot of sex, wild sex, tame sex, all forms of sex I'd say, they just tend to wait until they're married. And since they can be sure not to have AIDS, they also won't need to use any contraceptives or anything.

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Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit

Don't give into the dark side, Husar! :beam:

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Both sides grey I'd say, I prefer some of the old morals but when it comes to foreign policies etc, I'm rather liberal. In the end I'm somewhere in between, as usual. I was about to write some semi-philosophical piece about myself and this forum again, but this time I'm going to restrain myself.:sweatdrop:

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Originally Posted by Fragony

Man Stig that sounds deeply traumatising indeed, will you ever recover?

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Nah, never


Actually I don't care about them christians, but the fact they are this fundamentalistic is strange in a First World Country

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Originally Posted by Stig

Nah, never


Actually I don't care about them christians, but the fact they are this fundamentalistic is strange in a First World Country

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The dutch bible-belt mia mucal, I was 6 when they told me Sinterklaas didn't exist, only jezus :beam:

I've been to catholic schools Frag, I know enough of their worshiping of their god.
But I'm stunned that in these times, when we know the bible is fictional and unrealistic, made up by some guys seeking something to hold on to, and now that we don't need to hold onto that anymore, that people still believe in it. While we know it's all utter crap.

Am I the only one who found it odd that god didnt intervene on her behalf?

What a paradox..... :shame:

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Originally Posted by Stig

But I'm stunned that in these times, when we know the bible is fictional and unrealistic, made up by some guys seeking something to hold on to, and now that we don't need to hold onto that anymore, that people still believe in it. While we know it's all utter crap.

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I challenge you to back up your allegations.
I shall play the "believer" in this stand off.
It's me and you Stig.

What the fact that what's written in the bible is crap?
Easy:
try walking on water
try healing someone from blindness
try turning water into wine

I guess we are done with boot-camp then.

Pro- and anti-religious debate can continue in another, properly-titled thread (in consideration of our readers).

Thanks to all for the contributions to this now-closed thread. :bow: