Printable View
http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,22245585-2,00.html
Now, as much as I completely agree with the politics of this, I believe that a Public School should not do this, because it shouldn't be the place for political commentary. On the other hand, I have no opposition to where they are showing this. That is freedom of speech and if they want to say it, they should go ahead and do so.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rock eisteddfod entry pans Bush before APEC
That's all? Here we had a play at a school where a politician was beheaded because of his lack of dhimmitude, how and why all in one.
So these Rock Eisteddfod groups get between $2,500 and $8,500 of public money to stage 8 minutes of creative content - and this year, one group (school) wants to stage some anti-war content in their production.
I don't see the problem, unless politicians want to dictate content-acceptability rules because of public funding ("he who pays the piper calls the tune" idea). That'd be a bad idea, IMO. Politicians should politik, teachers should teach.
I have no problem with this, I think its a good thing. The elementary school the next town over from me is planning a parade next week where the theme will be "death to Iran".Quote:
Originally Posted by CountArach
Cant wait to have hundreds of screaming children marching up and down the streets chanting that theme. Ahhhhh the fresh scent of political freedom and free thought being imprinted onto young minds.
Of course freedom of speech is the theme, not some political adgenda.
:gathering:
Freedom of speech, let them say what they like.
I don't really see the problem with this....
People are supposed to have freedom of speech in public schools too, otherwise we'd have to shut down the Model Congress club at my school, the Students Against Destructive Decisions club, and all the other special interest clubs, like the gay and lesbian one, oh yeah and though my particular Model Congress definitely has a liberal slant if it was conservative it'd still need to be closed. It doesn't make much sense to condemn this anymore now does it?
Does the freedom of speech crowd here feel the same way about Creationism plays? I do, but I'm just curious.
I am not entirely sure about freedom of speech in this case. Are the students really expressing their opinion, or are they expressing their teacher's opinion?
Considering that there are 12-year olds participating I have at least some doubts that the former is the case without exception.
Of course, evolution plays on the other hand...:inquisitive:Quote:
Originally Posted by Proletariat
Australian newspapers are also allowed to publish anti-bush caricatures I guess, so why should these kids not be allowed to show an anti-bush play, though I have to say it sounds rather boring.
^--what he said :yes:Quote:
Originally Posted by Ser Clegane
Is there any other concept that's evoked more often and more unnessesarily that 'Freedom of speech'? That is not a fruitful perspective to view this case from. Of course they have the freedom to say stage their play, freedom of speech only concerns itself with judicial limits, the limits of which are not even remotely challenged by this piece. Soon, I think, when I ask somebody whether they enjoyed a movie I will get the answer that the director has freedom of speech.
Sorry, just a rant, not aimed at this thread or this topic in particular.
As for this play: bah! Move to North Korea if indoctrination is your idea of being a teacher. Rather devote your time to handing these children the tools to think critically for themselves. What's the pleasure of hearing and seeing twelve-year olds ape your thoughts, to see them perform creepy plays that satisfy your political preference? Indctrinating dependent childrens minds is the weakest form of trying to shape to world according to your own preferences. :no:
Cowards, I still have a bad taste in my mouth from teachers like this that I had myself at school. At twelve, I understood what they where doing, at fourteen, I was able to resist them, at age sixteen they weren't even a match for me anymore. Bunch of losers.
[/rant mode]
Ahaha. I find this all quite comical. How on earth did this make (inter?)national news?
The Modern Studies course, which is effectively teaches us to support the Social Democratic parties, or generally anything on the centre-left to far-left.
Political views are always a major part of state school things here. My Rector makes it plain that he is a proponent of separatism. The only political magazine in the School Library is The Scots Independent (SNP Newspaper) and the only national newspaper The Independent. Political views are invariably written into the School Pantomimes.
That's the catch :wink:Quote:
Originally Posted by Ser Clegane
Apparently some of the Children said that it wasn't their opinion, just their teacher's.
The portion of the government money they get to help do the Eisteddfod is to help promote a healthy lifestyle (anti-smoking, alcohol and drug abuse), and is something the government has done to sponsor the TV specials to reach a younger audience, so they have put money in after it got popular... it is not the education department that funds this nor is it core curriculum ... while the plays can be about anything in itself... so if they (the Federal government) start trying to pull the money then it will go back to just be the commercial sponsors... and one of the primary ones :drummer:... is Coca-Cola :laugh4:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Duke Malcolm
Exactly why do these Aussie's still care?
protests have been going on and on since the Iraq war and foreign people still dont get it, you cant control the US government. Cant they go on with their lives and be glad its not them who are getting shot at...
Protests have been going on in your country. This is our country. I find your tone to be condescending and slightly offensive. I am allowed to have my own opinions on anything I like and I shouldn't have to put up with your condescention to have them.Quote:
Originally Posted by K COSSACK
Well I'm glad so many support the right of a teacher to manipulate and use children for his own political purposes. :rolleyes:
What a baby the teacher is too - apparently so filled with hate for the leader of a far off country he has write a play where he is condescendingly telling Americans how to think and what to do.
He is not educating these children and is doing the very opposite of helping to teach them how to think critically for themselves. How would you feel if he were having these children do a play on how great Bush is?
Crazed Rabbit
You skin is pretty thin if you get offended by that. ~;)Quote:
Originally Posted by CountArach
Besides, he isn't saying you aren't allowed to have your own opinions, he is saying he thinks it's pointless that you protest because you won't accomplish anything. I don't find his post condescending in the least bit, maybe ill informed though.
It was condescending the way he said "these Aussie's" and "Cant they go on with their lives". I wasn't offended, I was just trying to find a way to say what was going through my head in a more sophisticated way.
And, for the record, Australia has 1,500+ troops in Iraq. So
holds exactly zero water.Quote:
Originally Posted by KC
So tell me where I said "students get shot at".Quote:
Originally Posted by KukriKhan
you take offence to being called Aussie? well I never knew.
But my opinion still stands wether people lighten up or not. And yeah thats your country think for yourselves, ask your leader to pull your troops out not ours.
nuff said...:no:
Because we are part of the coalition, and our PM has been one of the most ardent supporters of the War on Terrorism outside of the US.Quote:
Originally Posted by K COSSACK
The mini-me protest is aimed at embarrassing the Australian Federal government into action. The statement reeks of hypocrisy when the protest is against the coalition performing regieme change that other countries cannot have an opinion about the governments performing the change. "We can invade a country and change its government, but if you want to democratically protest that you can't!" Pull your head out, mate.Quote:
Originally Posted by K COSSACK
Could you clarify that statement, it comes across more as a threat that we should be glad that the US isn't shooting at usQuote:
Originally Posted by K COSSACK
It help to read the other posts too:yes:
So tell me where I said "students get shot at".
you take offence to being called Aussie? well I never knew.
But my opinion still stands wether people lighten up or not. And yeah thats your country think for yourselves, ask your leader to pull your troops out not ours.
nuff said...
Clarify anything? like to complain to your own government now?
I mean people if you want to change things write to your prime minister or join the army and try to destroy all the terrorists our leader and your leaders deems..well..terrorizing.
You know the irony is that although Australia is a constitutional monarchy we are not as hierarchal bound as the US. Just because our PM says something does not mean we take it as gospel. We don't say yes sir to our bosses, and we speak back to them... if they say something dumb we explain it to them why it is. Our leaders are human and just as prone to mistakes as the rest of us, so we take what they say with a grain of salt.
So no I don't think the situation is so black and white that I either protest against it or go off to war in support of it. Nor if I even agree with the WoT do I have to agree with decreasing Freedoms for Security... 'Hey guys the terrorists are going to take away your freedoms, so we will give you security in exchange for your freedoms' 'Hey those laws that you have used for centuries, well who needs evidence in the face of fear?', nor do I have to respect the priority of the target nations nor the way it is handled.
Congratulations for not believing in not trading freedom for security.
But I hope I made it clear the futility outside protest have become about the war. We must find other ways to protest, a way where we can show people why we must stop doing what we are doing instead of...
"Mr Bush as the pilot of a plane about to crash, before going into a segment entitled I'll go anywhere to fight for oil to lubricate the red, white and blue. "
holding up a sign with "Bush iz teh nAzi" and screaming out insults about where he is from will not get you respect and heard, it will only...get you a pat on the back from your fellow worthless hippies... but will only make you look like an idiot, like this girl http://watch.windsofchange.net/pics/...1103182533.jpg
Now now, isnt Mr Howard in his 4th or 5th term? So the limited hierarcal system you all have may not be as grand as ours clearly his gospel has been enough for a long run.Quote:
Originally Posted by Papewaio
So you tell them they are wrong and explain why what they said was dumb? Wonderful system there, I'd love a go at it but somehow I think you might be embelishing a touch?Quote:
We don't say yes sir to our bosses, and we speak back to them... if they say something dumb we explain it to them why it is.
Good enough, with the cavaet that this is the laws/institutions you chose. I mean Howard couldnt have been outed as :daisy: this month was he? K COSSACK I think might not have realized that others are invested in the war on terror a great deal.Quote:
So no I don't think the situation is so black and white that I either protest against it or go off to war in support of it. Nor if I even agree with the WoT do I have to agree with decreasing Freedoms for Security... 'Hey guys the terrorists are going to take away your freedoms, so we will give you security in exchange for your freedoms' 'Hey those laws that you have used for centuries, well who needs evidence in the face of fear?', nor do I have to respect the priority of the target nations nor the way it is handled.
In the U.S. what we get from the outside world is constant criticism to the point where we would prefer that if this wasnt the outcome you all desired then by all means move on (IE Spain, Italy).
Sadly he didnt extend his appreciation for the sacrafices made by Australlia. There a great friend and I for one appreciate them as a nation that stood by mine. However if your all tired, protest as loud as you like but step up and take a bit of the responsibility for the choices made.
Thanks Australia for helping us in Iraq~:grouphug:
But the students their should give it a rest. A protest play? sheesh write to ur leader instead.
They certainly can. ~:thumb:Quote:
Originally Posted by CA
:holiday2:
As to outside protests in general against America, try to see it from this perspective: it is not America and Australia that went into Iraq. It is America that went to war, with Australia supporting it. That is the crucial bit, the assymetry. That is why Australians are protesting against Bush instead of Americans protesting against Howard. (Howard who? Of where? You mean he's the president of Australia then?)
Washington decides about Australian lives, not the other way round. Hence Australians protest at the American president if they disagree. It is not about controlling the US. It is protesting against decisions that will affect Australians. America has by default, by its sheer size and weight, a tremendous impact on Australia - which is, and this is often misunderstood as well, also not the same as trying 'to control' Australia.
Because the opposition have failed to present an electable alternative, except in his first election race. BTW this is his 4th Term, with an election probably in November.Quote:
Now now, isnt Mr Howard in his 4th or 5th term? So the limited hierarcal system you all have may not be as grand as ours clearly his gospel has been enough for a long run.
Oh we tell them it is wrong. People explain why. They just don't listen...Quote:
So you tell them they are wrong and explain why what they said was dumb? Wonderful system there, I'd love a go at it but somehow I think you might be embelishing a touch?
A newspoll was taken a few weeks back that showed that the majority of Australians don't support the war. Many never did. I don't see why we should have to take responsibility for actions we didn't choose. I am openly critical of our Government very often and I believe that Iraq has been a debacle that never should have happened. Why should I have feel that I have a responsibility towards keeping this war running.Quote:
However if your all tired, protest as loud as you like but step up and take a bit of the responsibility for the choices made.
They didn't write it, their teacher did.Quote:
But the students their should give it a rest. A protest play? sheesh write to ur leader instead.
Hit the nail on the head. (BTW - John Howard is our Prime Minister. We don't have a President.)Quote:
As to outside protests in general against America, try to see it from this perspective: it is not America and Australia that went into Iraq. It is America that went to war, with Australia supporting it. That is the crucial bit, the assymetry. That is why Australians are protesting against Bush instead of Americans protesting against Howard. (Howard who? Of where? You mean he's the president of Australia then?)
Washington decides about Australian lives, not the other way round. Hence Australians protest at the American president if they disagree. It is not about controlling the US. It is protesting against decisions that will affect Australians. America has by default, by its sheer size and weight, a tremendous impact on Australia - which is, and this is often misunderstood as well, also not the same as trying 'to control' Australia.
Not at all, I've worked in mining with international companies (with Americans) and in IT for and with American companies.Quote:
Originally Posted by Odin
When (as in not all the time) they say something dumb (and bosses and employees do both) we are not expected to keep quiet... we aren't expected to say that it is dumb in front of clients, but we are expected to make sure that a project doesn't go ahead based on opinion. We had an American manager state "I am the boss, you are the resource and you will do exactly as I tell you." this despite the course of action he wanted would not have meet the scope of the engagement nor would it have made the client happy. He also would refer to all his superiors as sir and expected his subordinates to do the same... something that we don't do out of school or the military here.
The guys from stateside were certainly far more specialized and rigid in their approach to both IT and hierarchy... with variation from state to state it seemed... get along very well with the Texans... I found it ironic that it was the Hawaiian that was most rigid (but in fairness he was a) ex-airforce and b) next home was in Florida for his retirement)... generally it was more relaxed with the West Coasters, as for the ex-military guys the green berets and marines seemed to be far more relaxed in civilian life then the air force guys... the most relaxed and laid back guy I have ever met (from any country) was an ex-US army vet from Vietnam who could drink anyone I know under the table (when Kafir posts, its this guys face that pops into my mind).
In general I found a lot of the American's just more rigid in employee-boss relations compared with the way Aussies, Kiwis and Brits approach the same dynamics.
That's a cop-out. They should hold their leaders responsible and not act as though they can't do anything but go along with the US.Quote:
As to outside protests in general against America, try to see it from this perspective: it is not America and Australia that went into Iraq. It is America that went to war, with Australia supporting it. That is the crucial bit, the assymetry. That is why Australians are protesting against Bush instead of Americans protesting against Howard. (Howard who? Of where? You mean he's the president of Australia then?)
Washington decides about Australian lives, not the other way round. Hence Australians protest at the American president if they disagree. It is not about controlling the US. It is protesting against decisions that will affect Australians. America has by default, by its sheer size and weight, a tremendous impact on Australia - which is, and this is often misunderstood as well, also not the same as trying 'to control' Australia.
If the US carries weight in Australia, then those against being in Iraq should bring more weight to bear on their government...if they can.
CR
So regardless of the misery of war, the no WMD, the imperialistic leanings of the alliance with the U.S. and the distaste for Iraq on 10/9/2004 the liberal party holds its coalition with the national party.Quote:
Originally Posted by CountArach
The cat was out of the bag on Iraq before then, and the best you have is the opposition didnt have an electable alternative?
At least that gives you 3 more years (and counting) to blame someone else for your governments (and the voters) choice for going to Iraq. Why not aim at Bush, who knows kick that dead horse long enough and its leg might move.
Not buying it mate, Italy got out, so did Spain, you aussies get to own your piece all by yourselfs.
I guess thats the one part where americans and australlians differ? We arent happy either, but we take responsibility and vote in new people that we think will make a change no matter how bad they maybe.Quote:
A newspoll was taken a few weeks back that showed that the majority of Australians don't support the war. Many never did. I don't see why we should have to take responsibility for actions we didn't choose.
I feel the same way, and I dont think you personally have to feel any responsibility but your country does. Your country chooses to be there.Quote:
I am openly critical of our Government very often and I believe that Iraq has been a debacle that never should have happened. Why should I have feel that I have a responsibility towards keeping this war running.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Papewaio
Fair enough, my impression that you might be emblishing was wrong then.
Actually, Odin, yes the choice was between Coalition Government led by Howard that had experience even though they were pro-war or a Labour Government led by Mark Latham, who was inexperienced and disorganised. It was like a choice between the lesser of two evils.Quote:
Originally Posted by Odin
Fair enough, but I think Howard ignores public opinion to a certain extent. We had large protests at the start, but nothing happened other than an increase in the numbers there. And here in Australia the general attitude is a laid-back "she'll be right" attitude about most things, so people usually don't get too worked up about this stuff in general.Quote:
Italy got out, so did Spain, you aussies get to own your piece all by yourselfs.
Well I'm sure we'll take responsibility in November.Quote:
Originally Posted by Odin
Similar to Italy Spain and the U.S. Sadly were the only ones out of the three that screwed it up and didnt put Kerry in.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rythmic
Okay I'll lay off the throttle as long as when we are both drinking from the same troth your not bitching about my backwash, after all you lowered your head to drink too.Quote:
Fair enough, but I think Howard ignores public opinion to a certain extent. We had large protests at the start, but nothing happened other than an increase in the numbers there. And here in Australia the general attitude is a laid-back "she'll be right" attitude about most things, so people usually don't get too worked up about this stuff in general.
Hopefully, we are right behind you. Any Libertarians running down there?Quote:
Well I'm sure we'll take responsibility in November.
Well its a numbers game, for every Aussie there are 15 Americans... so when traveling I've generally meet a similar ratio out there... or another way to think about it for every Aussie you meet in the workforce (as an ex-pat) I've meet 15 Americans, and when it comes to Mining in the Southern Hemisphere it is dominated employee wise by the Tri-Nations (Aus, South Africa, NZ), Britain and the US... so plenty of oppourtunties to meet (for instance my Dad works for Alcoa, and bro for KBR). While in IT the US dominates that sector so it's not hard to meet lots of Americans.Quote:
Originally Posted by Odin