Corruption of end-of-turn symbols

I have run into a problem with the end-of-turn symbols which starts with the corruption of the unit recruitment report symbol.
I have been trying to get past the point of 80 regions held without this happening.The only mod used is Spurius's BigMap. Everything else is vanilla. I have used 2 different video cards with the same results so it can be replicated.
Specs: AMD64 duo-core 4600+, 3 gig ram, 320gig hd, WinXp SP2, M2TW update3. I have tried both nVidia 7500LE video card that came with the computer and ATI x1950pro that I bought thinkig this is the problem. All files and drivers are up to date.

The only thing I can think of is a memory leak and it's in the .sd files. Is it possible that the same symbol is being called by too many handles, in this case, recruitment report, path blocked, and others I don't remember? Can the symbols in the tga files it is reading too close together and bleeding into one another? Is there a way in the preferences.cfg file to turn them off?
Thank you in advance.

Edit: I pushed my campaign a little and had this happen. I am playing as England and on a couple of the end-of-turn symbols, England's diplomat.tga was trying to overwrite them. I also had a .tga from one of the units overwrite the accept and decline symbols. My only question is why?

Note to CA and SEGA,
I even did it to your own vanilla copy. 90 regions controlled and campaign in the tank.
Now please answer this:
A. Is it graphics card even though it exceeds specs?
B. Is it cpu even though it exceeds specs?
C. Is it CA's fault for bad code and if os is it SEGA's fult for not letting them fix it?
D. Is it Nobody knows and Nobody cares?
If it is C or D, I wonder how many Medieval2 dvds are in the dump because they couldn't do what was advertized? Heck a lot of good it is to have a 100 or 200 regions modded if the campaign (memory?) limit is only 80 to 90.

I can't offer much but a few hints:

I have played the grand campaign countless times and several times was bored enough to take over pretty much all of the world. This was without any mods except my own (which do not change graphics or regions).

Thus if you experience said problem, I would imagine it is due to the mod you are running having some bad code, not M2TW.

Are you, sir, telling me that Alpaca's M2TW mod folder is bugged? I used it to see if vanilla could hold up under the pressure of getting its memory and resources squeezed. The only thing that I changed was the EDB build times to one turn and gave 18 factions unlimited so they could beat up on each other. Both of these are not cheats as they are allowed by CA's modding rules. People who cheat do far more than this with the console commands because some just refuse to lose.
Now if this is all the damage I did, are going to tell me that taxes the game too much? If that is so, bye bye mods.

Actually I think it might more likely be the BigMap mod you are using.

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Originally Posted by FactionHeir

Actually I think it might more likely be the BigMap mod you are using.

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I used the game's original map. I tried the bigmap and then I went back to the game's small map and I get the same results. As I said in my last post I only changed two files. Even though my experiences in such things are different than yours, I believe the fault lies elsewhere. Where would you look next?

Hmmm well, errorlog first and foremost.

Add this to your config file and mark read only:
[log]
to = logs/errorlog.txt
level = * error

Then in the game, toggle_fow and show AI moves. Then end turn and see what happens. Check where/when the problem exactly occurs.
Then after it occurs and/or your game crashes, check the generated errorlog file.

Toggle_fow I have not tried. I always have it setup to follow ai moves. The errorlog is empty when I get back to it. From what I have read, the error does not record graphics errors, and if you can prove me wrong please do so because I am still learning, this is one case where the syslog does not help.

Hiya.

Syslog and errorlog are slightly different. Syslog records absolutely everything (even stuff that is broken and doesn't affect the game). Errorlog records only errors in files.
Usually, graphics errors are only recorded there if the file it is loading from is corrupted or has some misplaced code. If the errorlog is empty, its most likely an issue with the savegame (save being corrupted).

with toggle_fow and AI moves, you can check when the error exactly occurs. Sometimes its a result of a corrupted Ai stack doing some action that causes the error.

My log is set level = * error. How about level = * trace? I forgot where I read it a long time ago when M2TW was released, how can I turn on both error and trace and would it be worthwhile i your opinion?

Trace includes error, its basically the amount/sensitivity of output you want really.
I wouldn't think it to be very worthwhile however, as something that is not an error can be just another game quirk that really is completely unrelated but could lead you down a false track.

What I would suggest is that you go through the steps I outlined earlier. If that doesn't help any more, think of whether you had used different files (or file versions of files) during the progress of your campaign. Those tend to have a lasting effect at times.
Also, some files affect a savegame permanently, namely those in the data\world folder. If any of those files had an issue when you started your game, that error will show up sooner or later and be inevitable.

Okay, I'll do it this way. I am going to keep a few more notes in the mean time for future reference.
I do have one more question. A while back I ran into a thread in one of the forums, whether here, .com, TWC, for something called a "slow crash". Have you heard of it and if you have could you enlighten me?

Hmmmm I have no idea what "slow crash" means. Never heard of it.
I suppose if you know details about it, I might do.

I tried using "search" a few times but no results. Like it disappeared off the map with a server crash one time or another. Thanks anyway.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by FactionHeir

Trace includes error, its basically the amount/sensitivity of output you want really.
I wouldn't think it to be very worthwhile however, as something that is not an error can be just another game quirk that really is completely unrelated but could lead you down a false track.

What I would suggest is that you go through the steps I outlined earlier. If that doesn't help any more, think of whether you had used different files (or file versions of files) during the progress of your campaign. Those tend to have a lasting effect at times.
Also, some files affect a savegame permanently, namely those in the data\world folder. If any of those files had an issue when you started your game, that error will show up sooner or later and be inevitable.

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It's not the mod, it's the game itself. I just left a note on the M2TW hardware thread in the Citadel with the info. Since you seem to have good luck with vanilla, would you like a copy of a couple of my last savegames to see if it happens to you?

You might want to try running the game without file_first and without a mod folder, with the vanilla map. The sd files are known to bug about, especially in mod folders.

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Originally Posted by alpaca

You might want to try running the game without file_first and without a mod folder, with the vanilla map. The sd files are known to bug about, especially in mod folders.

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It is plain version 1.02 without mod folders, no unpacking, no io.file_first. Pure vanilla, map, EDB, EDU. It's all CA's. I Uninstalled and reinstalled everything to get rid of any trace of mods and it still happens. Do you want a copy of my last save games to try it on your machine to see if it is me? Remember, I am down to pure vanilla so it should be pretty easy to run.

Have you started the game (i.e. the the game the save refers to) under a modded install?
Asking because a lot of data is saved permanently into the first save file (and thus all subsequent ones regardless of which mods you install and get rid of in the process), and you can wipe your hard drive, play on a different computer and the game would still be affected by what was saved into it at the very beginning.

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Originally Posted by FactionHeir

Have you started the game (i.e. the the game the save refers to) under a modded install?
Asking because a lot of data is saved permanently into the first save file (and thus all subsequent ones regardless of which mods you install and get rid of in the process), and you can wipe your hard drive, play on a different computer and the game would still be affected by what was saved into it at the very beginning.

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I have uninstalled Kingdoms, don't need it for this.
I have uninstalled M2TW, being the problem
I have deleted the C:\SEGA folder to get rid of I hope any problems including savegames, mods, etc.
I ran a registry cleaner to get rid of the garbage.
I defragged the disk to get files back where they belong.
I rebooted the system to clean out he memory.
I reinstalled M2TW.
I installed M2TW update 2.
I have not done anything else to it since but play a campaign as the English.
I believe that is as close to a clean install as anyone can get. Is this much agreed? Then if this is true and the savegames I have are from this install, no previous ones, they should be clean of any previous garbage. The offer still stands to send you the saves. I would like you to try them for a second opinion of which is one I do respect.

Upload it on the tw uploader and post the resulting link here.

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Originally Posted by FactionHeir

Upload it on the tw uploader and post the resulting link here.

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http://files.filefront.com/M2TW+Save.../fileinfo.html. Since TW has a file size limit and this is 3mb I did this way. I hope you don't mind. All this after losing power for four hours and phone line for another six.

Thank you for doing this.

There is a memory size limitation tied to the .SD files which will cause a memory leak. However if you are using vanilla now that can't be your problem.

What does the log file set as trace say for the bit reading in the shared.sd file. ie what size is it?

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Originally Posted by wilddog

There is a memory size limitation tied to the .SD files which will cause a memory leak. However if you are using vanilla now that can't be your problem.

What does the log file set as trace say for the bit reading in the shared.sd file. ie what size is it?

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Since this game rewrites its medieval.preferences.cfg everytime the game starts, editing it is impossible. I have no mod folders so no config files for that switch there. So answer is no. Just plain old whatever the game gave me original. The last mod I used the trace switch the syslog was tremendous.

Had a look at the saves:
1200: End turn causes stall at Egypt's turn and game is basically dead.
1202: End turn works fine but at 1204 I see the corruption you mean. Ending game then results in an unspecified error.
Errorlog doesn't show anything.

My suspicion is that your massive amount of cheated(?) florins are the cause and/or that the problem had built up from a savegame corruption some turns earlier (1200 comes to mind)

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Since this game rewrites its medieval.preferences.cfg everytime the game starts, editing it is impossible.

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You simply create your own copy of the .cfg and use a .bat file to call it rather than the original

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The last mod I used the trace switch the syslog was tremendous.

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Thats why you open in Notepad and use "find"...

I see from factionheir's note that he spotted something anyway.

Sorry I was just trying to be helpful having spent a few hours yesterday and this morning resolving a problem about .SD files.

NASCAR creed from the old days of racing in the South: "If you ain't cheatin' you ain't tryin'".
That is a legitimate text edit of the descr_strat file and can be done for every faction including slave of which can cause all sorts of havoc. I've tried as a "what if". Because you can build so much so fast with the end of turn trying to keep up with it will do the same thing. Don't want it above a certain amount lower the present ceiling in the hardcode. I used it and sitll use it in RTW mods with 200 provinces and I don't have this.
I can set all the building build times in the EDB to one turn and cause.
I can max out the recruitable slots to 9 and cause it.
These are all legitimate edits and if there is a memory leak because it gets exploited my me or a modder that decides he/she wants a mod on afterburners is not our fault.

So after the rant, is there a patch in the works to address this issue? Another question, is there a fix by someone that I have not seen?

I am sorry for being late to the modding world and a lot of this probably is archived someplace but I can't find it. Please bear with me through this. If you have at your disposal threads on this site or other sites covering these issues I would much appreciate the info.

There will be no more patches for M2TW and there may with a small chance be one for Kingdoms specific issues only.

So first you say everything is vanilla and then after agreeing to test your savegame you admit to have done this and that with it in terms of modding. That isn't really helpful, you know.

Okay if that is your definition of modding I am guilty and I can live with that. Then please sit down and explain to me why just changig this one figure can cause so much grief? What are the sd memory limits? I can pull the sds apart and find out how much memory each one uses but there has to be something more concrete than that. Since this is an old issue even by alpaca's admission where is there an old thread, resource, or what have you that I can play catch up on? That is all I am asking for. After that I can set a mod within these limits and have fun.

I don't work with sd files so can't give you an answer on that. There is a thread in the modding forum (research wiki i think) on that though.

Having played around with recruitment, build times and money scripts myself, I can safely say that I hadn't had any problems so far, as long as you do it in moderation.
Without this being any hard limit, up to 5 recruitment slots and 1 turn build times works perfectly. I imagine 9 should also be alright.
What I do think might have been your problem is the vast amount of florins. The game can't handle too large a number on those possibly (you had several tens of billions) so I would recommend staying afloat at a rate of approx 5-10k florins in total per turn. If that is too little, you can always mod the build costs to compensate or just use add_money when you need cash (which takes a few seconds of your life at best)

What you're experiencing is not necessarily the same as the old problems that have been observed. Try playing with real vanilla, without any changes and see if it still happens.

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Originally Posted by alpaca

What you're experiencing is not necessarily the same as the old problems that have been observed. Try playing with real vanilla, without any changes and see if it still happens.

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I might later but I consider the 7k to 10k florians at the start of the factions pretty low considering how fast can build everything else around me.

After careful thought of the advice given form some pretty knowledgable such as Factionheir and alpaca, I wonder if these points have been considered?
Factionheir, I have considered using the add_money cheat but I just decided to take it all at once. Using the add_money cheat, add_population cheat, and process_cq cheat, I can turn any village into a huge city with all the building built in one turn. I have not done that. In fact, I have used a lot of constraint.
when counting symbols at 90 regions for end of turn the possibilities are these:
Disaster = 1
Enemy agent caught = I have had as many as 6 and they are all inividual.
settlement besieged = 1 per settlement besieged. I have had as many as 5.
end of year report = 1.
guilds = 1 per guild and/or upgrade.
construction = a possibility of 90 but probably 40 or 50. Only one construction symbol but all these are buried in it and that eats memory hole by itself.
recruitment = average of 2 to 3 in vanilla x 90 regions easily puts it over 200 new units. Only one recruitment symbol but all 200+ of these are buried in it.
family = endless possibilities with births, deaths, marriages, traits, retinue, etc. and they each take memory.
diplomacy is as varied as family depending on how many factions still standing.
Council of Nobles.
Pope and his wishes.
Crusade stats when there is one.
Jihad stats when there is one. I have had a crusade and a jihad going at the same time.

If you can show me the numbers to prove me wrong, and I seriously hope you can, whether its year 1200 or 1400 with gunpowder it will crash.

I actually cancelled all your queues before ending turn, so it is unlikely that it is from unit training. Similarly I did not build anything.
In my own games, I had up to 6 settlements besieged at a time and you only had 2 in 1202.

The thing about it and run it again if you desire if only for curiosity, the first symbol corrupted almost every time has been the units completed symbol and it is tied to a lot of memory. Even if each unit completed "only" uses 5kb that amount of units would shove the memory usage up a meg by itself. The second one to corrupt has been costruction completed symbol for the same reason.
Now from a modder's perspective, in hard numbers, what are the maximum amount of units can be recruited per turn, maximum number of biuldings constructed? These are the kinds of things modders have control over if given the numbers. If anyone, including me wants to kick in the afterburners, then it's our fault. If we have no information, it's not our fault. Besides, I've had 6 besieged settlements before at one time. I lost 2 of them before I could get reinforcements there.

I have a hypothetical question. Is there a chance that the hardcoded limits for recruitment and construction are carried over from RTW? It's been too long ago since the initial release of the game for any programmer to remember and I don't expect them to.

Even with all the rants by me I am going to find out what these limits are even if it takes until next month. When I do I'll post the results for all.

What I meant with vanilla is to uninstall the game, wipe the folder, reinstall and then change nothing and play a campaign (don't forget to make a backup of any changed files beforehand though). It could be there's some changes you made that you don't remember or some unforeseen stuff happening.

If you feel like it's too much bother, that's ok :bow:

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Originally Posted by alpaca

What I meant with vanilla is to uninstall the game, wipe the folder, reinstall and then change nothing and play a campaign (don't forget to make a backup of any changed files beforehand though). It could be there's some changes you made that you don't remember or some unforeseen stuff happening.

If you feel like it's too much bother, that's ok :bow:

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I know what you meant and the message is taken wholeheartedly, no spite intended. It was the only file that I changed. Right now I have my curiosity piqued as to what the limits are before the sd files "crash". It's just going to take a long campaign with recruitment slots reduced, no changing construction times , no changing money. I want to find out once and for all and with reproducable evidence of what the limits are. If I can do this for the community then our modders can make some excellent crash-proof mods. I have used the tools you have written for M2TW including .sd convertor and strings_bin convertor. By my being able to look inside these files I have been able get some of my information. Now I want to know "why" and I consider research part of modding.

You can do what you want with the information, including wiki, FAQs, hardcoded limits but I have found, not once but twice, the maximum of units recruited per turn without a crash of any kind is 210. If anyone wants be "Doubting Thomas", and question it, take the time, run the test, and prove it yourself.

A patch is indeed forthcoming, don't know what FactionHeir was talking about.

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Originally Posted by SigniferOne

A patch is indeed forthcoming, don't know what FactionHeir was talking about.

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Thank you. Best news I've had in days.