Where has all the battle tactics advice gone?

Well, I started a campaign in the middle of the map (as Hojo, I believe) because , foolishly, I was fascinated by a clan that had peasants as its bonus troops... it didn t take very long for my "kingdom" to be carved up like a birthday cake.

So Im playing as Shimazu now.

One difference from MTW-the bridge battles. On defence the AI (the Mori clan) tends to stand its troops a little back from the bridge, unlike in MTW where it does everything except stand on the bridge itself.

The only counter I ve found is to use my general with his cav to charge across the bridge , deflect left and break up the army defending while my men (inf) rush across. This distracting tactic can result in my Gen routing (shame!) So far its not had an effect on my advancing men (I m playing on Normal difficulty) who let their leader shoulder his way through them across the bridge and over the hills and far away....

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Originally Posted by Tony Furze

Well, I started a campaign in the middle of the map (as Hojo, I believe) because , foolishly, I was fascinated by a clan that had peasants as its bonus troops... it didn t take very long for my "kingdom" to be carved up like a birthday cake.

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That'd be the Oda clan. The Hojo are the ones in between the Takeda & Uesugi clans (towards the eastern end of the map), and they can build cheap castles. ~:)

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Originally Posted by Tony Furze

One difference from MTW-the bridge battles. On defence the AI (the Mori clan) tends to stand its troops a little back from the bridge, unlike in MTW where it does everything except stand on the bridge itself.

The only counter I ve found is to use my general with his cav to charge across the bridge , deflect left and break up the army defending while my men (inf) rush across. This distracting tactic can result in my Gen routing (shame!) So far its not had an effect on my advancing men (I m playing on Normal difficulty) who let their leader shoulder his way through them across the bridge and over the hills and far away....

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When assaulting bridges, I generally deploy a company of light horse (usually Cavalry Archers, although YC works okay too) to lure the enemy out of formation and chase be back across the bridge -- and into the arms of my waiting YA/YS. ~D

If the AI sees through the ruse and refuses to take the bait, however, then I'll make pincushions out of them with my Samurai Archers. Eventually the enemy weakens enough that I can generally then force an old-fashioned frontal assault. Bloody, but it usually works.

"That'd be the Oda clan."

Thanks Martok-as you can see Im pretty new. Originally I was daunted by the exotic strangeness of Shogun after the relative familiarity of MTW VI. Now Im fascinated.

I treat it as a whole new game if not experience-inspite of apparent similarities:

the same "Hoy!" when you move any stacks

the stack idea itself

the Risk like campaign map

etc etc

The fact is, in many wys, I like it alot-it has atmosphere, simplicity and charm.

I ve just managed to get a useful Japan map for the game to help me out and Im combing places to find useful stuff. Theres still quite a bit to discover...

Thanks again.

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Originally Posted by Tony Furze

I ve just managed to get a useful Japan map for the game to help me out and Im combing places to find useful stuff. Theres still quite a bit to discover...

Thanks again.

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Hey Toni,

have you seen this: http://www.totalwar.org/hosted/TotalwarShogun/ ?
There's a Japan map with resources and you can find strategy tips there.

:bow:

Enjoy the game, Tony! Many of us keep going back every once in a while to play this gem.

And if you have questions, don't be afraid to ask ~:)

Rás al Ghul : that s the very map I m using. The whole site is very tastefully made.

Wasp:Thanks very much.

My Shimazu look like theyre about to overwhelm the map soon. The Dutch have arrived with gunpowder and shot. And i have a Geisha terrorising the Daimyos and their sons.

Welcome to the club, I've never had much luck playing a "middle" faction. There is a delicate balance between turtling and attacking that I can't figure out. I usually lose fairly quickly.

Winter is here, about time for another campaign.

Love the game. glad this forum is still here to help out on occaison.

Matt

This part of the Forum is like coming to one of those fresh mountain top retreats
where the air is clear and clouds can be seen below drifting past...

The game is very impressive-excellent-with so many subtleties at both campaign and battle levels. I ve won twice-Oda on Easy which I played all battles on autocalc just to get used to the Shogun engine.

Then I was Shimazu on Normal, and I played out the battles till it was quite obvious victory was mine. I have never come across such real heroism you can generate in your units! You feel really proud of them after!

So now its onto Hard...

Awesome, Tony. (I confess I'm a little envious that you're getting to enjoy Shogun this way -- there's nothing like your first time!) ~:cheers: Have you decided as to which clan you're going to play as in your next campaign?

Thanks Martok. Its really a thrill to play this game... I m glad I went back to it.

I ve started a Hard Campaign as Uesugi. I ve already been attacked several times by various neighbours. Again I m amazed at the heroism that is more apparent than in MTW-something to do with the combination of fewer, more specialized units, the weather and the landscape.

It really gives it an epic feel.

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Originally Posted by Tony Furze

I ve started a Hard Campaign as Uesugi. I ve already been attacked several times by various neighbours.

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Yeah, that'll happen -- especially when you've got Shinano. :yes: Thank goodness the province has defensible terrain, otherwise it would be impossible to hold onto! (As it is, I've still lost it from time to time, as I can't always beat the back the constant attacks. :embarassed: )

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tony Furze

Again I m amazed at the heroism that is more apparent than in MTW-something to do with the combination of fewer, more specialized units, the weather and the landscape.

It really gives it an epic feel.

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Indeed it does. Shogun's always felt a little more "personal" to me as well, like I'm really there with my men and slogging it out against the enemy.

In addition to the superb landscape and weather affects -- which in my experience, have yet to be surpassed by any other game I've ever played -- I absolutely love the music, both in combat and on the campaign map. STW's soundtrack remains superior to any other title I have, especially in terms of instilling atmosphere.

Ah, Tony and Martok. It makes me smile to read you're thinking the same way of this game. :bow:I actually took took the cd's to uni now! ~:) Will be the first time in a loooong time playing Shogun again. I have Rome here too, but gah.. it's just too simple and boring :S

Btw, good to hear you're making good progress. Keep asking specific questions on campaigns and battles!

About the rivers.. well, I usually did the same, taking 1 cavalry unit to cross the bridge and have a part of their army leave the defence to chase it, so the rest could cross more safely. Another tactic was to use my daimyo or a naginata unit or so to cross the bridge, and then just wait. the AI always sends non-ranged units to charge when you get something across the bridge. then I would retreat quickly, and shoot up the charging enemies with loads of archers from my side of the river. the get shot down real quick, because they group together at the bridge and they always wander around for a bit before returning to the rest of their army. of course, this works better vs. ashigaru's, no-dachi's, or warrior monk's, because they have few armour.

It works loads better when the army has no(/few) archers, then your 'bait' won't get hurt and you can kills hundreds losing none.. ~:)

have fun! :bow:

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Originally Posted by Drisos

I have Rome here too, but gah.. it's just too simple and boring :S

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I'm stuck with RTW for now, because my graphics card/motherboard won't run MTW/STW due to the infinite loop bug. I must say though that I'm slowly getting into the campaign map game and can now see some of it's potential, but it's shortcomings where battles are concerned are often extremely annoying.

To a certain extent I can deal with the battles being too easy as a result of the stupidity of the AI (e.g. no attempt to flank, chariots and cavalry (including the general) charging a phalanx head on etc) but the numerous glitches are what annoy me the most, such as units stuck inside siege towers and extremely poor pathfinding, positioning and manoeuvering inside the city walls. Though I suppose STW/MTW admittedly didn't have real sieges anyway.

This is pretty much why I won't buy M2TW - at least not until I can legally purchase it for next to nothing. Many people swallowed the hype about that being so good and being the 3rd generation of TW but in the end it turned out that Empire is more likely to be the 3G and that M2TW was just a heavily modded RTW with many of the same flaws and some new ones added.

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Originally Posted by caravel

I'm To a certain extent I can deal with the battles being too easy as a result of the stupidity of the AI (e.g. no attempt to flank, chariots and cavalry (including the general) charging a phalanx head on etc) but the numerous glitches are what annoy me the most, such as units stuck inside siege towers and extremely poor pathfinding, positioning and manoeuvering inside the city walls. Though I suppose STW/MTW admittedly didn't have real sieges anyway.

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Ah yes... glitches indeed. I hated defending a city because I couldn't normally use my army/units.. But most annoying I found that I won any battle within second killing 95% of the enemies, using an all-cav army. (I played BI as the saxons, first campaign was my last right away) Sometimes heavy spearmen stood and fought for a seconds but then of course I flanked them and they routed and died as well.. it was just too simple. With just one army I could wipe out dozens of others.. :dizzy2: I must admit, I liked the campaign map and new possibilities in the campaigns.

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This is pretty much why I won't buy M2TW - at least not until I can legally purchase it for next to nothing.

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Hehe, me too. I waited very long with RTW, and I'm going to wait very long with MTW2 as well. ~;)

Another few "bugs" I forgot to mention: Firstly the phalanx bug. This is probably one of the worst in fact. It is where the AI phalanxes appear to be unsure as to whether they should be in phalanx formation or not and keep switching in an out of it. As a result their formation get's twisted up into a mess and they are easy pickings... but then when you charge your cavalry at them they miraculously all try to go back into phalanx mode but totally out of formation and facing in several different directions. Despite this mess they actually seem to be partially effective and suffer no real penalties for this disorder. The second bug, is the "skirmisher still skirmishing while out of ammo" bug. I remember chasing some eastern general heavy cavalry all over the map for about 20 minutes once because of this. It was obvious that the AI was still under the impression it was throwing missiles. Eventually I had to carefully surround the unit, pincer it and rout it off the field. More like "Sheepdog Trials: Total War".

It's a pity CA don't wake up and bring back the old battles of STW/MTW. If the battles were improved for a possible "S2TW" I could live with the campaign map.

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Originally Posted by caravel

The second bug, is the "skirmisher still skirmishing while out of ammo" bug. I remember chasing some eastern general heavy cavalry all over the map for about 20 minutes once because of this. It was obvious that the AI was still under the impression it was throwing missiles. Eventually I had to carefully surround the unit, pincer it and rout it off the field. More like "Sheepdog Trials: Total War".

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hehehe :laugh4:

I never liked skirmishing enemies in any of the series :P But that's ok, it would be strange if you liked the way your enemy is acting as a general. ~:) In STW I often got in trouble because of time limits and skirmishing enemies. (especially mongol light cavalry!) Then I discover the most simple way around though.. Just don't chase them, let them fire, while you block off any possible escape route.. then engage and kill all. ;)

In Rome I just sent some light cav after skirmishing enemies and for some reason they always cought then, it was just a matter of time.. :dizzy2:

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It's a pity CA don't wake up and bring back the old battles of STW/MTW.

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Indeed. Yet, they are doing well, economically seen, I guess? (I don't know for sure) Lots of people buy the game, love it for a few weeks, never get past 'easy', and never understand even half of the game.. but CA has their money. For us, people that dug deeper into stw, and love the game for atmosphere and the complex battle strategies etc, any of the later releases have been quite disappointing.

btw, a while ago I couldn't get MTW:VI multiplayer to work, despite doing what everybody said was necessary. Nobody understood, so I looked for support. After lots of tiring tries, CA sent me to Sega, Sega didn't reply, etc, etc,etc. There is no proper support. I'm just mentioning because, CA overall doesn't seem very nice to us at all... :no:

Edit: Tony! this might help you!

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=56338

It's a sticky here :P Well, it has links to all sorts of campaig stories. If you look back on the last 10-20 pages, there's some detailed reports of battles as well. Campaign stories are usually quite fun to read, and can be very helpful!

Have fun!

:bow:

And don't forget to just sit back and enjoy as you slowly see the world map filled with your own (blue Uesugi ~;) ) colour..

I've been playing Shogun on and off for years. It never loses its' charm. Just finished a campaign with the Uesugi and now am trying out the Hojo. Does anyone know what advantages the AI gets on the harder settings? I've always played at normal as for me this is hard enough..lol.

Hi thip,

Welcome! ~:wave:

On Hard, (and Hardest, the more) the units's the computer uses in battle will be counted with having +1 honour, iirc. So, it's actually a way of cheating for the computer. (on hardest it's +2)

I don't know how the difficulty involves the campaign phase (not battles).. It get slight smarter, I guess..

Note: I used to play on and off as well (still do), and I was always on Easy and Normal, until I became active here. Reading stories, and asking things, etc etc. In no time I could win at Expert.(easily!)

So, stick around if you want to defeat expert soon ~;) :P Questions are more than welcome!

On the difficulty, as for battles, Normal is fair. On Easy, you cheat. On Hard the AI cheats. On Hardest it cheats even harder.

cya!
:bow:

Hello Drisos,
thanks for the quick reply. The increased honour would make it very hard to break the enemies morale. I would definitely have to plan a lot more in advance when attacking....which is hard enough, but very rewarding when the enemy breaks and runs.
Another silly question. Hope you don't mind. But I played a number of campaigns as the Shimazu (Green guys on the western side of Nippon). I would take all the Ronin territory, knock out Mori (Red guys) and move into central japan...to be confronted by Uesugi who out numbers my armies by 10 to 1...rofl.
Silly question..but is it possible for the Shimazu to win? I gave up with them in the end.

It is possible. The solution would be to attack faster, or to hold on difensive ground such as that river province just left of yamashiro (kawasaki?) and use archers/muskets to destroy the attacking uesugi.

testing...

It's definitely possible to win, but the Uesugi have the more fertile lands, therefore more cash to spend on troops and upgrades. Like Sasaki says, you'll have to be fast or smart. Preferably both ~;)

Is this map http://www.totalwar.org/hosted/TotalwarShogun/
the game map?

Cause it doesn't seem very...historically accurate?

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Originally Posted by Parallel Pain

Is this map http://www.totalwar.org/hosted/TotalwarShogun/
the game map?

Cause it doesn't seem very...historically accurate?

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I assume you mean the "Map of Japan". Yes, that's the map as used in the game. Notice that it is turned a bit compared to the map of Japan we know from the regular world map; this might have caused your confusion.

No what I mean is why does the Oda have such a large area. Didn't Nobunaga actually have to UNITE Owari province first?

And why is Takeda split in two? I thought the Takeda was confined to Kai before Shingen's expansion.

And shouldn't Uesugi not have Echigo, as someone had usurped it? (They only get it back after the Uesugi guy passed on his name to the would-to-be-Uesuigi-Kenshin guy. I'm pretty sure even though the Uesugi had Kantoukanrei title they didn't have real control over the northern provinces.
And they most definately should not have Shinano.

That sort of stuff.

The original shogun had a historically innacurate campaign map. The expansion included three campaigns starting in 1530, 1550, and 1580 which have as you say, the Takeda confined to Kai and The Oda in Owari. Of course the expansion also includes invisible ninja super warriors ~:)

Is there some way to mod out battle ninjas and kensais?

Along with any other fantasy unit I don't know about?

And make the new units more balanced?

I don't think you can get them out, but you can at least mod their stats in such a way that they become useless. Don't know if that's something you're looking for.

Can I make them so expensive that NO ONE would be able to afford them?

Like Iunno 100 000 koku for one?

Sorry for double post *Where is the edit button*

If this can be done, would it mess around the AI?

It might be possible to tweak it so that the AI never builds it. Check around the modding forum for a thread about removing the geisha.

Thanks

Is there a link for a picture of the 3 campaign map starting positions of warlord edition?

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Originally Posted by Parallel Pain

Sorry for double post *Where is the edit button*

If this can be done, would it mess around the AI?

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I think the edit button isn't there for Junior Members, but I could be wrong.

I unfortunately don't know if it would screw up the AI, though. Sorry.

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Originally Posted by thip

Another silly question. Hope you don't mind. But I played a number of campaigns as the Shimazu (Green guys on the western side of Nippon). I would take all the Ronin territory, knock out Mori (Red guys) and move into central japan...to be confronted by Uesugi who out numbers my armies by 10 to 1...rofl.
Silly question..but is it possible for the Shimazu to win? I gave up with them in the end.

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Hey! Cool to hear. I had the same problem when I was new to the game. If I'd be Uesugi/Hojo the Shimazu/Mori would outnumber me, and vice versa. Just practice. If you get used to bigger/chaotic battles, etc, you'll kick ass even when outnumbered. ~;) (keep asking stuff!)

More simple is to expand your territory faster. If you conquer 2/3 of the map before Uesugi gains the upper hand in the east, he'll stand no chance. It's a matter of, who grows 'big' as the first.

Advice if you need to expand faster... practice small battles a lot, and, attack people even when you have the same number of samurai, or even less. If you can still win small battles when the enemy has more men, you'll get to conquer lands much faster. (don't have to wait till you have huge armies first, to attack ~;)) also, you can keep a closer look on taxes. you can adjust them sometimes to prevent rebellion while leaving minimal units in regions you've recently conquered.

oh yes and as mentioned: playing as the Uesugi/Hojo the problem will be less. They are 'easier clans'. It's easy for them to conquer lands/win, etc.

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I think the edit button isn't there for Junior Members, but I could be wrong.

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correct, I guess.

Thanks for the reply Drisos. I won a campaign with Uesugi recently and am now playing as hojo on normal and life is definately a lot easier. So much koku to spend...
After this campaign I might try my Green friends again...

A general question guys..do you develop only a couple of provinces with full upgrades to produce specific units or aim to build large castle/fortresses with upgrades in all provinces?

Most players tend to devote specific provinces to producing certain units. So you may have 1 or 2 provinces for Naginata/Heavy Cavalry, another couple provinces for Warrior Monks, etc.

Of course, the lower-tier units -- Yari Ashigaru, Yari Samurai, and Samurai Archers -- can often be produced in a lot of places, as most of your provinces will have Spear Dojos and/or Archery Dojos. That said, it can still be worthwhile to build up specific provinces to train those 3 units as well, provided you're willing to upgrade the Spear/Archery Dojos (along with the castle). :yes:

Thanks Martok. I have been building perhaps too many upgrades in too many provinces. Running out of koku for more units.

Looking on some of the older threads I noticed there is a lot of talk about Shinano. Don't you just love Shinano. Playing as the Uesugi a few weeks ago I decided to hang onto the province and was attacked repeatedly by Oda, Imagawa and Takeda.
In one memorable battle I was down to 300 troops, mostly archers, when Oda paid a visit with 800 troops. Mostly Yari Ashigari, or so I thought. I placed (or misplaced after reading some threads) my troops at the centre of the valley, up high thinking my flanks would be safe.
When Oda's troops emerged from the forest on my right I was feeling a little nervous. The general was leading his troops and they were running as fast as they could to my right flank.
The hail of arrows didn't slow them one iota. They just marched straight up the hill. One huge sea of Ashigaru. I sent my two Yari Samauri to protect the right flank.My general and Odas' clashing head on.
Then I hear "your general has forsaken his honour..." Being so close to the edge of the map he was gone in seconds. In the heat of the moment I hadn't even noticed two Yari Cavalry hit my left flank. The horde of Ashigaru crested the hill and all looked lost. It would only be seconds before my leaderless and outflanked troops fled.
But they held their ground ..holding back the horde...when suddenly a miracle happened. "You have taken the head of the enemy general.." How lucky could you be? I threw my archers into the fray and the Ashigaru wavered..and ran...
The cavalry put up more of a fight, but it was battle over. So there it is...300 (without a leader) against 800...and winning...just.
What a great game....and don't you just love Shinano?

PS As for the disgraced general, I tried dropping a ninja on him but the damn game wouldn't let me..lol.

Yup, that's an example of the greatness of this game ~:)

No problem, thip. :bow:

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Originally Posted by thip

I have been building perhaps too many upgrades in too many provinces. Running out of koku for more units.

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Yeah, it's a common enough mistake for first-time STW players to make. (I myself was suffering the same fate when I first started playing before I finally learned better. ~;) ) Money in Shogun is generally harder to come by than in the other Total War games, so you have to be more careful about what you spend....and just as importantly, where you spend it.


A few tips for you (some of which are probably pretty obvious, but I'll list them anyway just to be on the safe side):

1.) If you own a province that grants an honour bonus to a certain unit, then by all means go ahead and tech up that province so you can train that unit there. So if you own Kaga, you should build up that province so you can train Buddhist Warrior Monks. If you own Totomi, make sure you can train Samurai Archers there. And so on.

2.) Location, location, location. I try to concentrate my main troop-training centers in strategically-located provinces that connect to several of my other provinces. That way it cuts down on the transit time needed to get new units up to my border armies, as well as minimizing the time needed to retrain battered units and bring them back to the frontlines.

2a.) Remember to upgrade your castles in provinces that have rich farmland and/or mines. Mines can be upgraded to Mine Complexes, but you first have to upgrade the castle (to Fortress, if I'm not mistaken) in the province the mine is located in. I believe farm upgrades (at least some of them) require the castle to be upgraded as well.

3.) If you own any provinces with iron sand deposits, you should generally focus them on training just Heavy Cavalry and/or Naginata. (They're the only units that require iron sand deposits.)

3a.) Shinano is a major exception to this, as it grants a +1 honour bonus to *all* cavalry units, not just HC. If you own Shinano (and have actually managed to hold onto it ~D ), then feel free to build it up so that you can train all your cavalry units there.



There's probably a lot more advice I could add, but that should probably suffice for now. Let us know if you have any other questions or problems!

Thanks for the advice Martok. Now I just have to put it into practise. There is obviously a balance between troop producing and province development that I need to find.

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Originally Posted by thip

Thanks for the advice Martok. Now I just have to put it into practise. There is obviously a balance between troop producing and province development that I need to find.

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Ah, yes indeed. Of course, I you build too much, you want money to actuallly use it. So, my priorities are usually,

1. Training new troops.
2. Economical improvements (farmlands, etc, etc)
3. Technological improvements in main training region
4. technological improvements in others training regions

and, to give an indication, I usually build improved farmlands 100% in all regions that say to be good for farming in the description you get when you rightclick. I start upgrading them from year 1.

Furthermore, I use only 1-2 training regions in the beginning. If the campaign gets really far, I might take 2-3 more. For instance, when I'm uesugi, I build up Mutsu, and Shinano. (because of the cavalry plus) Then, I usually take one of the other clans main regions as third centre. (shimosa/kai, or preferably totomi because of the archers) I usually destroy all but financial buildings in regions I conquer. next, I always keep yamashiro for training purposes. I strongly recommend you to do so too.

with 4 you should have enough capacity already.. you can take more though.. Kaga, Kii, Owari, Satsuma, etc etc. Just don't go crazy and build training buildings in half of your regions. only increase the number of regions when you notice you have so much money you can't get rid of it. And especially, keep improving economically!

and btw, I do love Shinano indeed. It's great for killing loads of enemies!! ~:) I usually kill a few hundred of Imagawa #turn1, and I keep killing loads of Imagawa, Oda, Takeda troughout the game. I usually pick the huge hill to the left of the enemy's starting position. And I make sure I have loads of archers!! :yes:

:bow:

Thanks Drisos. I think I get the idea. One or two provinces building high quality units. Once established expand from there. Excellent.
Having fun with Hojo last night. I had just finished off Imagawa and Oda. Japan is nicely carved up into thirds,,Shimazu, Mori and Hojo when tragedy struck...CTD...and I hadn't saved in hours...

Every coastal province can give you a gaurenteed 250 koku income a turn just by building a stage 1 castle and a port

If the enemy army consists of alot of low morale troops try to just quickly hit a few of thier units from all sides and this should start a rout chain going

If you have quite a few cavalry in your army you can often distract some of the computers units take them on a litttle detour and then either use the cavalry to pick of the units that followed you or send the cavarly sprinting into the back of the enemy whilst your main line hits them from the front. If they both hit at the same time then even with hugely inferior numbers and quality the enemy should rout.

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Originally Posted by thip

when tragedy struck...CTD...and I hadn't saved in hours...

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Hey, there's always autosave! (I thought?)

You can load the 'autosave' file just from the 'load game' screen. You probably won't get back as far as you were, but definitely not hours back either.

Ports are good, but actually dangerous, you can be attacked trough sea! Though I've seen the AI do it only very(!!!) rarely.

Ports are good, but actually dangerous, you can be attacked trough sea! Though I've seen the AI do it only very(!!!) rarely.

really ? never saw this happen...

also another good point on the ports it makes transporting armys around alot easier!

It's rare, but they do attack port to port on Expert difficulty. Usually it's the Shimazu or Mori, sending a small group of units against Kawachi or Owari, and usually when the big push for Kyoto (Yamashiro) is happening.

A way I've actually triggered it is to block their forward progress with your front line armies and destroy their ports nearby if they have any. Then vacate the port province you want them to attack, and leave several units of ninja there. They only send a few units, and there are bridges in these provinces, so the ninja go to town. Interestingly, the AI will often send the same number of units again and again for a while, and your ninja can honor up very quickly just by hanging out in that port. You can also honor up a 3-star general to a 4-star general quickly by putting him in command at a port that is being constantly attacked in this manner.

***

Is that Wolf Grizz? Long time no see m8, good to see you're still in the mix (we played some fun games back in the day when I went by Toga).

I'm in awe of your cleverness Masamune. Who'd have thought of a strategy like that? Brilliant.

Is that Wolf Grizz? Long time no see m8, good to see you're still in the mix (we played some fun games back in the day when I went by Toga).

heya :)

still playing any TW ?

Nice tactic i was always trying to get nice high honour generals.

My basic game tactic was to get a few provinces early start going for money making ideas for a few years, ports mainly but mines if there or farm upgrades if worth it, then i would just go straight for teching up my units, mainly CA, SA, WM (or ND if shimazu) and then some HC, i try to make do with little units at the start to pay for teching up a few unit producing provinces quickly, it depends on the situation i create a few extra cheap units like YA or YS and SA if they're going to have to fight large battles, with good tactics and few YS and SA defending a hill you can take on repetitive attacks or a large attack.

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It's rare, but they do attack port to port on Expert difficulty. Usually it's the Shimazu or Mori, sending a small group of units against Kawachi or Owari, and usually when the big push for Kyoto (Yamashiro) is happening.

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I never dug deep into this, but I only recall 2 or 3 times they attacked me through port. I can't remember the situations/regions, sadly.

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also another good point on the ports it makes transporting armys around alot easier!

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ah yes, we couldn't live without ports. Tranporting troops from Mushu, Shinano etc to the west when you're Uesugi attacking Shimazu (for instance) would be a pain. I usually create loads of ports later in the game. I don't use much shinobi's/ninja's, but build border forts everywhere instead. It seems to work, but levelling up ninja's/shinobi's the same time would be more profitable actually.. it's more out of lazyness that I use the forts. :embarassed:

:bow:

I don't use much shinobi's/ninja's, but build border forts everywhere instead. It seems to work, but levelling up ninja's/shinobi's the same time would be more profitable actually.. it's more out of lazyness that I use the forts.

I do the same, i think it saves you on ninja/shinobi upkeep

True, of course. But by the time I build lots of ports (and those forts), I usually have too much koku already. I build lots of improved farms/mines, and I train troops in only a few regions... I just can't spend it all, so I could afford them.

Same goes for more training centres+more troops. I could conquer japan sooner, more easy, if I'd spend all my money.. but I think I prefer my campaigns to last a little longer, etc. I don't mind. ~:)

:bow:

A general query guys. I thought if you accepted the Portuguese offer and became Christian you lost access to warrior monks. But in my current game I am building churches, temples and trading posts in the same provinces and can build WM and Arq as well.

Have I missed something here?

you still have accsess to both units just uilding a WM makes you buddist again...

Does my entire clan revert to Buddhism or just the province that started to build the WM?

Sorry if the above question looks lame but i can't find anywhere in game to tell who is Christian or Buddhist. My main concern is that there would be no point in building a Cathedral to make some Koku, if building a WM has converted me back to Buddhism.

If you click the 'alliance' tab, you can see who's reverted to christianity by the large cross next to their banner.

Oda made the mistake of converting while their loyalty wasn't too high - didn't take me long to conquer some nice provinces while they had to fend off Warrior Monks!

If you want to be christian you'll either have to stop building warrior monks, or i think if you build another portuguese trading post/church/cathedral you turn back christian (not sure) or you have to accept another trading offer

As a general piece of advice: Either be christian or be buddist. So, when you accept the portuegese offer, don't use Buddist temples and WM anymore. It'd almost certainly cause revolts.

btw, I can't advise to accept the portuegese offer altogether! It makes it only harder to keep your people happy, you'll need to invest lots in churches en priests (which can be assasinated, btw) and you only get arq's. Now I don't recall which version you are on, but iirc arq's can't even fire in rain? plus, SA are usually more useful in battles. (unless you need to shoot for a looong time, arq's have loads of ammo.. ~;))

If you play long enough to let the dutch come, accept. Their offer has no downsides. ~;)

Good luck!

:bow:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Drisos

If you play long enough to let the dutch come, accept. Their offer has no downsides. ~;)

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Yeah, I never accept the Portuguese' offer to become Catholic. While the religious income is nice and early Arqs can be useful, it's still almost never worthwhile for me. Aside from risking revolt and the fact that Arquebusiers aren't *that* nice, I also don't like losing the ability to train WM. :sweatdrop:

well i think if you just accept the offer one turn, start building potuguese trading post (or a few) then after thier complete train a WM and its as if you never changed in the first place, Im pretty sure just training an arq doesn't change you back to christianity.

I would say its worth it to get guns, they have lots of ammo and can kill alot of men in the right situations, with 12 guns a few good infantry units and a good defensive position you can beat a full stack of top qaulity troops, on the cheap!

Thanks guys for the ideas. I can't resist building the churhes everywhere and getting the Cathedral. Heaps of income..lol.

whats the income like ?

I don't think i ever got around to building a cathedral...

I don't recall, but I do recall you could build several cathedrals by making sure they would start building the same turn. (normally you were allowed to build only 1.. while they gave good income.)

btw, very intresting this:

Quote:

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well i think if you just accept the offer one turn, start building potuguese trading post (or a few) then after thier complete train a WM and its as if you never changed in the first place, Im pretty sure just training an arq doesn't change you back to christianity.

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I'm definitely going to try! Thans! ~:)

:bow:

One thing, im unsure if its training a WM that changes your religion back or actually building a temple...

The risk you run when going Christian is a big drop in overall provincial happiness initially (people don't like big changes). This improves slowly over time. As usual, if you anticipate this you can take steps before going Christian to minimize the impact.

Any province with a Buddhist Temple is at risk of revolt when you go Christian. Therefore, station a larger garrison of Ashigaru (50% less upkeep compared to a samurai garrison, and just as effective when considering keeping the peace), and shinobi in any province that has one.

Any formerly rebel province that was affiliated with or controlled by Ikko Ikki (Kaga, Noto, Etchu, Echizen, Ise, Kii, Yamashiro, and perhaps some of the other initially rebel provinces in the Yamashiro area), will also have a higher rate of unhappiness at first if you choose to go Christian. Kaga, Yamashiro, Ise, and Kii are particular hotspots that will need attention before you go Christian if you want to avoid revolts.

I don't often build border watch towers or forts, but you can build these ahead of time too if you can afford it (shinobi cost less initially, have no upkeep cost that I'm aware of, are just as effective, are portable, and have other functions besides just keeping the peace).

You can still build monks if you controlled Temples before the change, and it doesn't affect your status as a Christian to my knowledge (once a Christian, always a Christian if you look at the alliances tab). Just monitor the happiness in all of your provinces carefully until your subjects get used to the big change. Build churches and use priests to accelerate this process, particularly in Buddhist hotspots. When provincial happiness levels out again you can reduce/reassign your garrisons and reassign the shinobi to other hotspots.

I haven't played in a while so I'm not sure if you can build new Buddhist Temples after going Christian. I don't think you can.

The bottom line is, you can be Christian and still produce and use monks if you manage things carefully.

***

Quote:

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Originally Posted by thip

I'm in awe of your cleverness Masamune. Who'd have thought of a strategy like that? Brilliant.

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Thanks, you are too kind. Some would consider this strategy exploitive of the AI. I don't make a habit of using the ninja lure or general-star factory nowadays, but enjoyed the counterattack method and fringe benefits when I was first attacked in this manner (back in 2003, lol).

***

Just saw the question about Chathedral income, which is 100 Koku per year from every Church in Japan--even those not owned by you. Like Port income and unlike harvests, it does not fluctuate. Ports, Mines, and Churches are the secret to consistent, predictable wealth (which enables consistent financial planning).

***

Are you playing Warlords 1.02 or the original?? I have never in my uncountable number of SP games noticed my status changing back to Buddhist after accepting Christianity. I play 1.02 when I play SP (except when I play a Mongol campaign; I play 1.03 or 1.05 for that).

Thanks Masamune. Your post explains why I can still build WM and Arcs at the same time. If you can't revert to Buddhism then I won't lose income from Cathedral.
I'm playing with Gold Edition v1.00 and I'm pretty sure I get 200 koku per church. I'll check tonight.

Drisos...love your idea of building several Cathedrals at once. Have to work out now if having 2 Cathedrals would double your church income. I suppose it would.

The end movie about the bamboo curtain and the, ah, "expulsion" of foreign superstitions is still the same, I assume? In which case, I find it rather amusing that your daimyo is merely using Christianity for his own ends... :smash:

How could you think such a thing Spongie? My Daimyo is spreading the Good Word of the Lord to the wretched heathens. To save their poor souls.
But if he happens to make a few Koku out of it...then praise the Lord.

What's this? A daimyo using religion as a tool in his quest to become Shogun? Surely not!

[whistles innocently]

By the way guys. I have been experimenting and just for the record building 2 Cathedrals doesn't double the income from churches. But if you can stop the revolts you get 200 koku per church as well as 200 koku per trading post.
If you built telmples before accepting the Christian offer then you still get WM.
It doesn't get much better than that..lol.

Interesting, thip! So there's no reason to build more than one cathedral?

And is there a disadvantage to training Warrior Monks with your 'old' temples? Revolts or anything?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Wasp

Interesting, thip! So there's no reason to build more than one cathedral?

And is there a disadvantage to training Warrior Monks with your 'old' temples? Revolts or anything?

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I haven't noticed any. I don't build a lot of monks usually though. No Dachi in SP serve the shock troop function just fine and are much cheaper. They have a better charge, which is what I use shock troops for, so I tend to use them over monks. If I'm playing Mori I use Sohei instead of No Dachi though.

In WE 1.02 the game only allows you to build one Cathedral. After you build one, the option to build disappears, even if the province meets the requirements for one. I haven't played 1.0 in ages and ages (but this discussion is making me curious to try it again).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by thip

By the way guys. I have been experimenting and just for the record building 2 Cathedrals doesn't double the income from churches.

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ok, now you mention it, I do recall some discussion on the more-then-one cathedral thing from before. Well.. might not get the income, but it is actually possible to build several. Minor glitch ~;p

The only disadvantage I suppose is that you can't build new temples or upgrade your existing temples once you accept christianity.

Drisos, using your method to get 2 or more temples does have one advantage I realised the hard way. If you lose the province with the cathedral to ronin then they destroy the cathedral and you lose the income. If you had another cathedral you would still get the income.

This is probably more of an exploit I suppose. The game designers probably only wanted/intended the player to have the one cathedral.

Busy fighting off ronin at the moment...and Takeda was resurrected..lol. Not fair...

I was wondering if you guys play with the timer on? I have had the situation in large battles where I have routed the enemy and given chase.
The problem is that as his army exits, his reinforcements then arrive all over the field and usually behind my army which is now exhausted...and can't withdraw without a fight.
Consequently, the time usually expires before I can win. Any thoughts...?

I prefer to play with timer off (true for MTW as well). It means you have to win, rather than playing to the clock... :smash:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Spongie

I prefer to play with timer off (true for MTW as well). It means you have to win, rather than playing to the clock... :smash:

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Same here. :yes: I haven't played STW or MTW with the timer on in years.

I used to play with timer on, always. Nowadays in my first campaigns without timer.

Doesn't make much of a difference it seems. In big battles I don't need victory right away, I just slaughter their initial army and come back next turn to finish the rest.

A timer is useful when slight glitches occur. I've had a couple of times that routing units of the enemy couln't reach the border. They were stuck, and I couldn't kill them either. If you have no timer, you've got nothing but esc and you lose. But it happens only very rarely.

:book: