The Magnaura

[_Tristan_]

Methodios bows to the Caesar.

Pardon, your Highness, but it seems your proposed Amendment is without cause as it is already within the powers of the Basileus to grant those offices to Senators he deemed worthy enough to hold them.

All I see here is a way to restrict the powers of your esteemed father or yours one day, should God call your father by his side...

[Andres]

I second Charter Amendment 3.1.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Methodios bows to the Caesar.

Pardon, your Highness, but it seems your proposed Amendment is without cause as it is already within the powers of the Basileus to grant those offices to Senators he deemed worthy enough to hold them.

All I see here is a way to restrict the powers of your esteemed father or yours one day, should God call your father by his side...

OOC: But they don't add an influence bonus in the Senate now, do they? Or am I wrong?

[TinCow]

OOC: CA 3.1 is perfectly fine. It makes 2 changes to the current system. First, it adds a +1 Influence bonus to those two titles. Second, it prevents anyone except the Basileus from holding them both at the same time.

[_Tristan_]

OOC : I never said it was not fine only that it restricts somewhat the powers of the Basileos...

[Andres]

The Charter Amendment does have a cause, dear Methodios, since it gives the Basileus the opportunity to grant more influence to the Senators he deems worthy.

[Privateerkev]

Makedonios looks slightly annoyed.

Are we debating slaughter yet again? And does it always have to be discussed in the cold hard terms of economics?

These are people. Even if they are different people, they are still people. Furthermore, how are we supposed to show them the Light of the Lord if we keep killing them?

And if we insist on talking in pure economic terms, leaving the population alive, so they will support a larger settlement, is much better than killing them. They other options give a short term boost at the cost of a long term lag in tax revenue and support for more advanced buildings.

His features soften.

As for the proposed CA, I believe it should give influence that still has to be allowed by someone's position. Like a royal marriage. It should be considered what they call "stat influence." Only finishing a term as Megas gives an automatic +1 influence. And I doubt the holders of these titles will do anything near the hard work a Megas does.

Just letting titles automatically give influence in voting makes them overpowered. The receivers don't have to do anything for their automatic influence, unlike the Megas.

I humbly recommend remaking the CA to look as follows:

ThisisnotaCA X.X: Rule 3.5 is reworded as such: 3.5 – Influence: Each Senator’s voting power is equivalent to his total Influence, as defined by Rule 2.7. No Senator’s Influence may ever be lower than 1. For the purposes of determining Stat Influence, a Senator can gain 1 point of Stat Influence for each of the following conditions that he meets: (a) 5+ ranks of Command (b) 10 ranks of Command (c) 5+ ranks of Chivalry or Dread (d) 10 ranks of Chivalry or Dread (e) 10 ranks of Loyalty (f) 8+ ranks of Piety (g) 20+ total stat points (h) 30+ total stat points (i) 40 total stat points (j) Senator’s name is modified by a trait title that bestows more negative than positive stat points (i.e. the Mad) (k) Senator is married to a Byzantine Empire Princess (l) Senator possesses the title of Lord High Chancellor, Lord High Steward, or Privy Seal.

This means the Senator would still need to hold the position to make use of this influence. And then the part in the Caesar's CA about only giving one per person is not needed. Because, if someone did have multiple titles, they would need a position high enough to make use of the "stat influence."

[Andres]

Savvas smiles at Makedonios.

Grandmaster, in the Senate we make laws, we don't do maths...

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

OOC:

[woad&fangs]

A breathless messenger enters the Magnaura

gasp, weeze Strators! Runners from the province of Antioch have informed me that a large Fatamid raiding party has gathered in the countryside southeast of that city!

The messenger is lead to a table and given water.

[Privateerkev]

Makedonios looks surprised at this news.

What!?!

I have not heard of this. Where did you get this information from?

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

OOC: I'm stuck at work without access to the save. Can someone with access please let me know if TC has spawned a deathstack outside Antioch?

[Ibn-Khaldun]

Senators,

If it would be possible not to change your views after every few minutes. I really would appreciate that.. Saying one minute that he supports the crusade and then few minutes later that he does not give any resources to the Crusaders.. well.. that is just shallow..

He looks towards Caesar while saying this..

But about the other things mentioned here ..

I do not like extermination. But sacking is sometimes a necessity. Still I like the Edict proposed by the Grandmaster Ksanthopoulos.

He nods to Makedonios..

Also.. the war against Seljuks is just starting but to me it is already over.. The objective was to get back the provinces in Anatolia. This means Iconium, Caesarea and Adana. Iconium is under siege by the Asteri forces. Perhaps Adana is taken by the Orders knights already but that I do not know.

Efstathios looks towards the Orders table to get confirmation but continues in the same time ...

So I do not see why does the "Anatolian Campaign" be the top priority unless there are some hidden agendas in it.

Just one thing more at the moment. We need some kind of policy to deal the Catholic Crusades.
Should we block all routes to our lands to their armies..
Or..
Let them march through our Empire without any restrictions.

I have said it before but .. Somehow a Catholic Crusader army in our land makes me feel very uncomfortable.

Efstathios takes his seat.

[Privateerkev]

An aide give Makedonios a report.

Ah yes, it seems a small raiding party has made it's way past the Templars. We'll dispatch the Fatimid army in the opening phase of the war.

Makedonios then nods to Efstathios.

The assault on Adana will commence as soon as the Senate adjourns and I can get back to my command. The castle is under siege and siege engine are being built as we speak. The castle is guarded by one Turkish noble and his bodyguards. There is a Turkish army nearby but I do not believe they will be a problem. We'll simply rush the castle and beat the reinforcing army to the gate. I am glad that I was able to pull away Turkish forces that would otherwise be standing in the way of House Asteri.

[AussieGiant]

Standing Apionnas speaks:

I second CA 3.1

I find it highly irregular that we can be so mortified with Orthodox deaths inflicted, POTENTIALLY, by the Caliph, yet we have just tabled a law in which sacking Arabic provinces is allowed.

If what the Caliph has done is in fact confirmed, then he should be condemned by this Chamber, but equally we should be able to look at ourselves first and assess how our own behaviour can be viewed by those not of our mind.

The decisions of war and conquest should not be authorised or mandated by the clergy of any nation. Some of you have started the objective assessment of what is actually needed to survive and win this so called crusade. I commend these men, because it will not be faith, or zeal that feeds, cloths, arms and trains men for war...that is the job of generals.

It is a short spanning empire that allows it nose to be lead by hands not of it's own!!

[Privateerkev]

Makedonios turns to Apionnas.

I abhor any sacking. But politcal reality is what it is. I believe it would be easier to simply pass the same legislation that we've already passed before, rather than try to pass new and more restrictive legislation. Edict 3.2 is simply a renewal of Edict 2.3 with the added protection for Crusade targets.

As for the sacking of Muslim targets, even though it is allowed in Edict 3.2, I assure you it is forbidden among the men of the Order. Any general in the Order who attempts to use Edict 3.2 as an excuse will find himself in a spot of trouble. Therefore, I do not believe that the sacking provision if 3.2 will lead to a dramatic increase in the sacking of Muslim settlements. Everyone bordering Muslim settlements has shown restraint in this matter.

The Caesar's House has occupied every settlement it has taken. I trust the men leading Asteri's armies will show mercy to the Turkish people they conquer. Priests are wandering Turkish lands as we speak to spread the Word and ensure the armies of Asteri are welcomed more warmly. The Crusade Targets will be occupied. And the rest of the Muslim lands are bordered by the Order. And I have already given my assurances on that matter. Aleppo was peacefully occupied and Adana will follow in just a few short weeks.

If I thought a general "no sacking" edict could pass in this chamber, I would propose it. But, unfortunately, I am not so hopeful. So, I propose a renewal of an edict that is less than perfect. But it is better than nothing. And practically, I seriously doubt there will be the sacking of Muslim settlements for reasons I have already laid out.

[AussieGiant]

Apionnas inclines his head towards Makedonios as he speaks.

Your words are convincing my lord.

Please note, I make my statements not out of any belief that they be necessarily right or wrong, but simply as a person who is able to very easily place myself in the position of how certain other nations can view us.

Before making his next remark Apionnas casts his eyes across the whole chamber.

However the legislation stands as it is worded. Therefore it identifies Muslims specifically as a collection of nations that can be sacked by this Empire. I tell you now that this is more than enough for 'others' to see our opinion on the matter.

YET, here we are acting with shock and outrage, because word has reached us, that another nation, may, kill Orthodox and Catholic lives.

Pausing, he places a clenched mailed glove forcefully on the bench in front of him.

In fact what WE have decided to do is call a Crusade against that nation for those alleged actions.

Some may wonder just who is governing this Empire if such a response is deemed rational by this body of men.

[Privateerkev]

Let us not equate what the Caliph is doing with "sacking".

Sacking is the appropriation of wealth from a settlement that tends to lead in the deaths of those who guard their own wealth. While abhorant, it is not what the Caliph has ordered.

According to His Eminence, the Caliph has ordered the extermination of every Christian man, woman, and child in Cairo. This isn't killing those in the name of plunder. This is the most brutal form of murder. Even those who engage in sacking tend to avoid killing women and children.

Furthermore, the Caliph is going to destroy our ancient Holy sites. This is a direct attack on our Faith.

So, edict 3.2 is not a hypocritical case of supporting what we are also condemning. It is supporting what I believe to be evil, but if there is a scale of such matters, it is a "lesser evil" than what the Caliph is planning.

And others keep bringing up that the Caliph has not yet done these things as some sort of excuse for moderation. Should we wait until he slaughters every Christian woman, man, and child before we act?

I trust the man who gathered this information. And I trust His Eminence to analyze that information and then call us to action. If they say this is about to happen, then I believe it is about to happen.

[AussieGiant]

So be it Senator Makedonios.

Let us see how things develop.

[_Tristan_]

Methodios stands to adress the Caesar once again.

While I could agree with CA 3.1 as it gives more influence to Senators favored by our Basileos, I would prefer it be redrafted along the lines stated by the Grandmaster of the Order.

What I don't understand is the will of the Caesar to deny family members the chance of being chosen by the Basileos : is he so afraid of his younger brothers being favored over him ?

Why deny Kosmas Mavrozomis the chance to hold one of these offices ? Why deny it to Ioannis Kalameteros ?

I'd like to hear why our Caesar wishes to restrict these honours...

[Ibn-Khaldun]

If we could continue and leave Crusade where it is then...

Isn't there really no other important things to discuss??

Efstathios looks around with surprise...

[Privateerkev]

Makedonios raises an eyebrow when Methodios speaks. He quickly looks over the parchment every senator received decribing CA 3.1.

Senator Methodios is right. It does restrict the titles to non-family members. So, according to the Caesar's CA, you can't be a family member, and you don't have to hold land. So basically, the lowest ranking among us can gain as much automatic influence as someone who worked hard during a whole Megas term.

My proposed amendment to CA 3.1 would eliminate both of these problems. Any person, family member or not, could have these titles. And they would have to have land to gain the influence from it. My amendment would not limit the Emperor from giving titles to Strators. But they would not get the "stat influence" until they were a Domestikos.

Which seems only proper.

[Ibn-Khaldun]

Makedonios is right. Any person should have the chance to get those titles. I support him in this matter. Even though I am one of those landless Strators and probably would not get the "stat influence" for a long time.

Efstathios smiles..

[TinCow]

OOC: The period for debate and legislation will be four days in length, and will end at 8am on Sunday, July 20th. This will be followed by 2 days of voting, which will end at 8am on Tuesday, July 22nd. In order to participate in the Crusade, you must send me a PM by the end of the voting period.

I will be out of town from Sunday, July 20th through Sunday, July 27th. During this time, I will have access to the internet and will continue to monitor and control the game, though my response time will be a bit slower. In addition, the nature of the Crusade Event means that I will need to edit the game via the console at the end of every turn. Unfortunately, my laptop cannot handle M2TW. As such, OverKnight will be making the changes for me for however many turns elapse while I am gone. Please accept my apologies if the game moves a bit slower during this coming week.

[Ibn-Khaldun]

Efstathios looks around and seeing that no one wishes to take a word he says something to his assistant and leaves from the Magnaura.

[Askthepizzaguy]

A letter arrives from the absent Efstratios, and is read by the junior senator from the Durazzo province.

Senators of the Roman Empire;

I have long supported and endorsed the cause of our people, our Emperor, and our way of life. I have been fighting in wars since before many of you were of age. None more staunchly supports the cause of the Roman people and our great civilization.

I also endorse freeing our people from the oppression of the Catholic occupiers in southern Italy, and regaining our former territories in Anatolia and the Levant, and perhaps even making Aegyptus a Roman province once again. I support the idea that when we make these lands ours, which are rightfully ours to begin with, we should begin re-teaching the ways of the one true Christ again. However, I have never, and will never condone wars based upon religion. I do not support the idea of a Christian crusade, no more than I support the idea of a Muslim Jihad.

What would the Almighty have to say about taking the Word of GOD and perverting it to endorse wars of racism, xenophobia, and genocide? Forced conversion of the "infidels" against their will? It is one thing to reclaim the rightful lands of a nation from invaders, it is one thing to invade a belligerent power and claim their lands as a prize of war... it is quite another to declare war on an entire race of people, and declare an entire religion to be our enemy.

I say this is both foolish from a tactical standpoint, sending our bravest off to die in Egypt, but also from a strategic standpoint. Are we to abandon our northern, eastern, and western borders in favor of this damnfool crusade??? Just because a man in a robe says it's correct?

I am a religious man. I have read my Bible many, many times. Never, not once, in the Bible does Jesus Christ, our savior, condone the act of aggression. The act of murder, that is. Only in self defense should we ever raise our swords. The Patriarch of the Roman Empire has LOST HIS SENSES to declare war on an entire people. Even when persecuted by the ancient ones of the former Roman Empire, before his teachings cleansed it, our Lord and Savior did not rise up and call for a holy war against his oppressors. In fact, I do believe our Lord never once advocated war at all.

I would be a hypocrite not to point out that I am as guilty as all of you... for I have indeed called for wars. However, in every case, it was for the defense of the realm, against an invader, against an occupying power. Never once did I call for the destruction of an innocent people, or an entire religion. I never once called for a holy war.

We will have blood on our hands, gentlemen. Blood of the innocent, blood of those who have not wronged us, blood stains we cannot wash away. How are we followers of Christ then?

The Patriarch of the Roman Empire... he has made a strong case for the removal of a madman, the Caliph. This, indeed, perhaps we should do. But to call a crusade against those who follow Mohammed... that is to multiply our enemies a thousandfold AND butcher the innocent in the process.

To the Patriarch, I say this:

I do not question your decisions lighty, as the sole leader of an entire faith, you command great respect and power. However, I believe you have forsaken the message of the faith you pretend to follow. Do you seriously, and honestly believe that Jesus Christ, of Nazareth, Son of God Almighty, Heir to Heaven and the defender of your immortal soul, would EVER condone the call to arms you have just made against a religion? To start a Holy War? Does not the Bible condemn those who preach Christ's message, yet call for war in his name? When EVER did Jesus ask for a war in his name? When ever did he call anyone to arms?

Blood spilled in Christ's name is the same as spitting on the cross or setting it ablaze. It is an affront to everything our lord stood for. You should be ashamed, Nicholas the Third, pretender to the Throne of God. You should discard those holy robes, and forsake your religion, for if you truly wish to declare a holy war against the followers of Islam, then you have no business being a Christian.

You commit the same sin as the other impostor on the throne of the Catholic Church, whom we have condemned for his belligerent and hypocritical ways, his imperialism and his false piety and false modesty. He is a power-mad, bloodthirsty traitor of Christianity itself, and now, so are you.

I renounce you as my spiritual master, and declare your ways and your followers to be betrayers of Christ. You hypocrite, you snake wrapped in the clothes of a holy man, you impostor, you Judas! May God have mercy on your soul!!!

I am also renouncing my position as a Senator of the Roman Empire. I cannot continue to act in service of our people as a policy-maker, because I strongly object to this course of action made by those who would follow this religious pretender into the gaping mouth of hell. I will not damn myself and my people and my Emperor to hell because some madman has decided to follow in the terrible tradition of our archenemy the Pope, and declare an unholy war.

It may come to pass that I will also be forced to step down as the recently-appointed ruler of the Order of the Silver Hawks, but I have not resigned yet. For now, I will also be continuing to fight for my house and my Emperor to defend against the Catholic invaders and the rebel scum who wish to usurp our laws and our freedoms, and I will continue to fight until such time as my services to the Empire are no longer required.

I am no traitor to the empire, this foolish "Patriarch" is. However, I am certain there will be those who brand me, fallaciously, as the traitor. It is written in the Bible that those who would stand up against tyranny and injustice will be hunted down and despised for it. I am prepared to accept the consequences of this action. I will not apologize.

To my friends, I urge you:

Do not abandon our homes and our borders to follow this religious monster into acts of unspeakable evil. If the Caliph should be removed from power, that is acceptible. I suggest we send a force of troops down there to destroy him. But to plunge completely into a holy war will incense ALL Muslims against us. This I do not fear, but I call it UNNECESSARY! There is no need for MORE innocent blood to be shed.

Do not abandon our people to the Catholic invaders, nor forsake our Turkish front, nor allow the rebels to run rampant in the North. While this Caliph deserves justice, we will likely destroy ourselves delivering that justice, unless we do it with a clear mind and a clean moral conscience. Holy War is not the answer, it never is.

Do not abandon our Christian ideals simply because our Christian leader asks you to do so. Condemn me, if you must... but listen to what I have said, and consider it. Do not blindly follow madmen, for they are the reason why the first Roman empire fell and splintered apart. Religious madmen will be the death of us all, Senators. Mark my words, this Crusade business will destroy what we have created in our lifetimes, before our grandchildren can grow old to enjoy it. This I prophesize, this I forsee.

Lord Efstratios Monomachos,
Ex-Senator and loyalist to both the Roman Emperor, and the One True Christ.

[Privateerkev]

Makedonios had a stern look on his face through the whole speech.

It is a pity that Efstratios didn't have the courage to say these things in person.

Now that tirade is over with, lets get back to business.

[deguerra]

Very dramatic, Efstratios. As the Grandmaster correctly points out it is a shame he cannot be here to hear our replies. Most importantly, I would like to know just how coming to the aid of Egyptian Christians can be considered a war against an entire religion. We have not declared war on all Muslims, the Caliph was the one who declared war on all Christians.

In any case given the heat which this debate is generating, I feel I should rectify a few points.

First. I agree with the Basileos that the foreign and military policy of the Empire should not and never be up to men of the clergy, insofar as they are not part of a religious Order and Strators of the Empire. Anything else is taking the authority of this very body and trampling all over it.

That said, second, I have no real qualms with this Crusade. The cause, to save the lives of Egyptian Christians, is as just as we ever hope to fight for. Nor need it be, like has been suggested a weakening of the frontiers. I don't intend to remove myself or my army from the East and I have no doubt the Basileos will remain on his vigilant watch in the West. I just do not understand why a proposal for a Crusade could not have been brought before this Senate like any other proposal and instead attempted to circumvent the laws of the Empire.

Third, I wholeheartedly agree with the Grandmasters renewal of the Extermination Edict. We've all agreed to it before, I do not honestly know why it is causing such a stir now. Sacking is allowed when settlements are not Orthodox, extermination is avoided. These are people we are talking about for Christ's sake!

Fourth, I agree with my brother's CA, but prefer the Grandmasters rewriting thereof, not only because it limits the powers of these offices a little, but also because in my selfish ways I do not see why family members should be excluded from public office. If anyone can present to me a resounding argument why they should, I will drop the matter, although I still think the added influence should be limited by rank. Obviously this is easier to say when you are high up in the chain than when you are further down.

[Zim]

Kosmas waits for both the uproar caused by Eftrafios' message to die down and the reasoned responses to it from his fellow senators to be completed, then stands and speaks.

Earlier when the candidates for Megas were debating, talk quickly turned to the planned crusade. As interested in the subject as I am, it seems that the crusade will take care of itself. I wonder if perhaps we could hear more from them on their plans for the empire as a whole over the next term.

[OverKnight]

Aleksios speaks.

Yes Kosmas speaks wisely, let us not lose sight of the election. The next Megas will have much to do.

One question that I have is this: If the reconquest of Anatolia goes well, how far would each candidate go against the Turks? Are we going to reclaim our former lands, or are we going to destroy the Sultanate completely? Will peace become an option at some point, or will it be all out war?

[Ignoramus]

After hearing his father's words, Ioannis rises to respond.

Your highness, noble senators, if the reconquest of Anatolia preceded well, I would attempt to negotiate a truce with the Turks. Rapid expansion would leave us vulnerable to attack from other enemies, and the further we expand from Constantinople, the weaker our authority becomes. What is more, beyond our former lands, there almost none of the true faith. Without a missionary expedition, we would never be able to suppress revolt.

Ioannis resumes his seat.

[Ramses II CP]

Vissarionas ek Lesvou listens carefully to the speech of Efstratios as read in the Senate, and withdraws a bound black bible from his case. Reading through the book while he waits Vissa is clearly struck by the relevance of a passage, and rises to read, speaking quietly but firmly to start, and gradually rising in volume as he warms to the subject.

Senators we have heard a noble speech from the self described ex-Senator Efstratios, and while it seems of little consequence to me what a man may say when he has not the courage to speak it himself, I do believe that we should have a few words from the good book in support of the Crusade. Since our representative from the Patriarch has been, ahh, uninvited, I will take up the task myself.'

Firstly, as spoken by Jesus himself in Matthew, 10:34,

Think not that I am come to send peace on earth; I came not to send peace, but a sword.

And a few verses later, Matthew, 10:38,

And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me is not worthy of me.

Is this not the very essence of a Crusade? To bring not a peaceful resolution to the proposed slaughter of innocent Christians, but order and justice at the point of a sword? To take up the cross in the name of defending our fellow faithful?

We are commended by Paul to '...be at peace with all men,' but this command is preceded by 'If possible, so far as it depends on you...'

Is this not a clear case where it does not depend on us? The Caliph has set aside men, women, and children, selected by virtue of sharing our faith, for butchery. I cannot imagine standing aside and simply letting this occur. I cannot believe that any man of faith would have it so.

I hope that I have brought some clarity to this matter for those who might find Efstratios' words confusing. I myself found it quite odd that he approves of an assault on Egypt under any guise but a Godly one; I must wonder what his perspective would be on sacking captured cities?

I say if we are to deny the Caliph his vile intention it should be under the banner of Christ first, and Byzantium second. And let any Muslim soldiers who would oppose us tremble in fear at the coming of the armies of the Lord!

Vissarionas finishes his speech with a verbal flourish and the vibrant ring of a true believer sounds in his voice.

[Ignoramus]

Ioannis gets to his feet.

Thank you, Senator Vissarionas, for that wonderful rendition of the Scriptures, highly coloured with the Frankish barbaric ideas of spreading their faith.

Does not Christ tell us to turn the other cheek to our enemies? The Christians in Cairo are martyrs for their faith. Let us not create martyrs for the infidels, lest we be hypocritical in actions.

Ioannis resumes his seat.