The Godfather, Part 3 [Concluded]

[Beefy187]

I just suggested that you should consider suicide, and if thats not allowed at least ask for someone to replace you. Last thing we want is lynching a innocent, and second worst thing is a lurker mafia winning. I merely suggested a alternative way to solve your inactivity rather then getting your self lynched.

[ULC]

Unvote: Sigurd
Vote: YLC

I am simply employing a logical course that would want you to lynch me over Sigurd, that's all. It happens to be working. And Chaotix, when have I ever been a good townie? When have I ever claimed anything less then that I am a poor player?

In any case, good luck town. You have several excellent players alive, that can and will win this for you, if you but try - victory is derived from effort and truly wanting it.

[White_eyes:D]

[I]Night 3

TinCow was walking his dog down the street, enjoying all the new golden Christmas lights that had been put up in the Gameroom by shlin28. He was too engulfed with the golden Christmas lights to notice the red dot on his chest. Luckily there was someone there to point it out too him.
He heard someone screaming "TinCow, Watch Out! There is a red dot on your chest! It's a Sniper!!!"

The man threw TinCow what appeared to be a bulletproof vest, and he put it on without much thought. Not noticing that it was a vest covered with C-4 explosives!

It was too late to take off the vest though, the button was pushed, and TinCow went KABLOOEE!
A laser pointer and a business hat was found at the scene of the crime, along with the words "BEEFED" branded into his severed head.

why this write-up....??? there were hundreds of others.....WHY this one?
I feel SO used again.....I am not going to help lynch anyone.....(as I did in that game...lynching TinCow that game.....what a fool I was) If Reenk or Sigurd, did this....they are truly evil...
and YLC ALWAYS uses WIFOM.....its his trademark move....

[Sasaki Kojiro]

You know, we can still lynch sigurd this round...

eh, probably no getting around the ylc lynch. Who's to say he isn't mafia? Be nice if we had a vigilante though.

[Chaotix]

Unvote: Sigurd
Vote: YLC

I am simply employing a logical course that would want you to lynch me over Sigurd, that's all. It happens to be working. And Chaotix, when have I ever been a good townie? When have I ever claimed anything less then that I am a poor player?

In any case, good luck town. You have several excellent players alive, that can and will win this for you, if you but try - victory is derived from effort and truly wanting it.

A truly poor player would be one who doesn't try to improve. As long as you are actively pursuing your victory condition, you are decent enough in my book- this here is me paraphrasing your own words. Regardless, I am not criticizing you as a player, but only your performance this game.

Honestly, what it looks like here is that you are very busy- you simply have no time to play this game as well as manage your own game and deal with real-life issues as well. Believe me when I say I have been in this position before, where you literally can't spare ten minutes without sacrificing doing something else.

If this is the case, there are better ways of removing yourself from the game then trying to get yourself lynched. You are too innocent to waste a lynch on, but you have also made yourself too suspicious to be left a few turns for the WoG. If you are truly town, then you should pm GH explaining why you can't play anymore, and suicide. That way, you've confirmed yourself innocent, you don't have to play anymore, we don't have to worry about you possibly lurking along and being mafia, and most of all, we still get a lynch for today, instead of it being used to kill you off. This is the best course of action.

[ULC]

You know, we can still lynch sigurd this round...

You could, but the logical move would be to eliminate me - however, not only do I hold majority vote at this point, but your currently voting for Sigurd, not me, so you can't really influence it unless you can convince two people currently voting for me to begin voting Sigurd on less stable reasoning, drawing suspicion unto yourself - in fact, why would Sasaki Kojiro be so intent to save YLC, who is doing nothing but spewing WIFOM and long winded, empty posts to distract the town, but not Sigurd?

[ULC]

A truly poor player would be one who doesn't try to improve. As long as you are actively pursuing your victory condition, you are decent enough in my book- this here is me paraphrasing your own words. Regardless, I am not criticizing you as a player, but only your performance this game.

Honestly, what it looks like here is that you are very busy- you simply have no time to play this game as well as manage your own game and deal with real-life issues as well. Believe me when I say I have been in this position before, where you literally can't spare ten minutes without sacrificing doing something else.

If this is the case, there are better ways of removing yourself from the game then trying to get yourself lynched. You are too innocent to waste a lynch on, but you have also made yourself too suspicious to be left a few turns for the WoG. If you are truly town, then you should pm GH explaining why you can't play anymore, and suicide. That way, you've confirmed yourself innocent, you don't have to play anymore, we don't have to worry about you possibly lurking along and being mafia, and most of all, we still get a lynch for today, instead of it being used to kill you off. This is the best course of action.

However, I do not Sigurd lynched. To make sure Sigurd is not lynched, I have to intentionally do something to prevent that. If I were to not be lynched, then Sigurd would be.

And Chaotix, sorry, but how on earth do you come up with the idea I am innocent? And I am also sorry for manipulating all of you to do this, but in my opinion it has to be done unless someone can point out the pros of lynching Sigurd.

[Beefy187]

However, I do not Sigurd lynched. To make sure Sigurd is not lynched, I have to intentionally do something to prevent that. If I were to not be lynched, then Sigurd would be.

And Chaotix, sorry, but how on earth do you come up with the idea I am innocent? And I am also sorry for manipulating all of you to do this, but in my opinion it has to be done unless someone can point out the pros of lynching Sigurd.

Then those who are currently voting for Sigurd will be forced to lynch him tomorrow. You lynching your self does not save Sigurd but make him more suspicious. Nothing more then just delaying him lynch unless the mafia is foolish enough to go after Sigurd next night.

[Gaius Scribonius Curio]

To begin with, I find it somewhat interesting that the kill from last night was also 'ripped-off' from elsewhere. The fact that it was WIFOM to begin with probably added to its allure to the mafiosi. However, I believe Tincow claimed that this makes it likely that it was part of a plan. This could well be the case, but due to its late appearance, it could be that the mafioso is still improvising, and by not reverting to his own writing after discovery is trying to further complicate things. Even more likely, a more experianced mafioso or Godfather has seized upon this as a plan after the fact. I believe that the latter situation makes the most sense.

On the topic of Sigurd, he doesn't seem to be too suspicious. That said he has recently lurked his way to a stunning victory (with Boudica) in Chicago Soiree. Nothing in his relatively few posts has been worthy of much attention, but that could indicate an avoidance of dangerous topics, in keeping with a mafiosi influenced agenda. Certainly a worthy target.

YLC's behaviour seems very strange. Sticking himself up for death rather than suiciding would firstly waste a lynch (were he a legitimate townie), and also distract some of the town from attempting to find a mafioso this phase. Also his attempt to protect Sigurd makes little sense, unless Sigurd were the Godfather, and he a grunt. However, the protection this provides would only last until the next round where increased pressure would be applied to the recipient of such a convenient reprieve.

As such I believe that YLC should be forced to suicide rather than him forcing the town to use up a lynch, and will for the moment;

Vote: Sigurd Fafnesbane

[glyphz]

YLC...
To defend Sigurd and present yourself as a better lynch (& getting the majority) is admirable, however, ironically enough, your behavior is giving me the vibes that you are less suspicious than Sigurd.

Vote: Sigurd

Tally:

Sigurd: 5 - Sasaki Kojiro, Andres, Seamus Fermanagh, Gaius Scribonius Curio, glyphz

YLC: 4 - TevashSzat, Sigurd, Chaotix27, YLC

Jolt: 1 - LittleGrizzly

[Ignoramus]

Vote: YLC

[taka]

since u sooo want to get yourself lynched

vote: sigurd

just coz u dont want him to be lynched

[naut]

Ok, I understand why Sasaki went after YLC from post #560+, but after that when everyone else jumped aboard? Seems far, far too convenient. The venom in some of the posts to me felt vastly unwarranted. But, I don't think lynching YLC is a particularly bad vote, since he wants to die anyway.

On the subject of lurkers, two things I'd like to touch on. Firstly, the game started close to a weekend, weekends are hectic in terms of family and RL events so I don't think it's a surprise we had so many abstains last round, I'm sure plenty of people were simply recovering from their weekend exploits. Secondly, despite this being a WIFOM, I don't think many of the lurkers would have the time to trawl through old threads to find old write ups. I know I certainly don't, but nonetheless you can't discard them as suspects since the Godfather may be doing the research for his grunts and passing on his choices to them.

I think we did a mistake by rushing out to analyse the writeups after night one. A smart Mafia moves with the flow and cover their tracks if they sense the bloodhounds on their heels.
We should have waited a few more rounds before scrutinising the write up texts.

Agreed. We've been making it too easy for them to cover up any mistakes they've been making.

[Reenk Roink]

Or perhaps I won't...

FYI, that kill write-up was stolen from Chicago Soiree, and IIRC, even there it was stolen from a previous game. Be careful of assuming that we got one of the grunts because of only one murder. Unless the spate of kills continues at one per night for a while, I would assume they're laying low to intentionally throw us off.

[edit]Original version of the kill write-up (Rise of the Mob game). GH was the victim, and Reenk Roink and Proletariat were the mafioso.

Chicago Soiree version of the kill write-up. Reenk Roink was the victim, and Sigurd and boudica were the mafioso. This kill write-up was used ironically, as Reenk Roink had earlier stated this was the exact way he wanted White_eyes to die. WE later claimed the use of this kill write-up was an attempt to frame him.

IMO, the person ripped it from Soiree because this version ends with "A laser pointer and a business hat..." which is logical substitute for the Soiree ending of "A laser pointer and a fedora..." In comparison, the Rise of the Mob ending just had "A laser pointer..." with no headgear of any kind.

And my favorite kill lives on... Good job Mafia, good job.

Vote: Sigurd

[naut]

I have to put my vote on Beefy. The way he jumped to attack YLC seemed very agressive.

Vote: Beefy

[Beefy187]

I have to put my vote on Beefy. The way he jumped to attack YLC seemed very agressive.

Vote: Beefy

Attacked? Attacked how? I didn't even vote for him!

I only suggested to suicide or get replaced rather then wasting a lynch for him!

[Sigurd]

I am disappointed in you guys. You are lynching a townie for more or less no reason.

The game has not lasted long enough for anyone to be considered a lurker. And your paranoia is getting the better of reason. What happened to start each game with a clean sheet? You are all voting based on the fact that I have been successful in past games which indeed is not at all relevant in this one. It's all argumentum ad antiquitatem.

I will however change my vote to the one I think is responsible.
This all smacks of Reenk craziness
Reenk jumps on the bandwagon giving no reason and at the same time give praises to the mafia. You always like to leave little clues here and there.

unvote: YLC, vote: Reenk Roink

The others voting me for no or at best flimsy reasons will receive scrutiny. Yes I am looking at you taka and Gaius.

[Andres]

However, I do not Sigurd lynched. To make sure Sigurd is not lynched, I have to intentionally do something to prevent that. If I were to not be lynched, then Sigurd would be.

And Chaotix, sorry, but how on earth do you come up with the idea I am innocent? And I am also sorry for manipulating all of you to do this, but in my opinion it has to be done unless someone can point out the pros of lynching Sigurd.

Eh, wait a minute there. That doesn't make much sense.

If you're a townie, then you're 100 % sure that you're innocent, so your dead won't help your team one bit. You can never know for sure that Sigurd is innocent; indeed, even after an investigation by the detective, the Godfather will turn out to be "innocent".

So, as a townie, when given the choice of lynching yourself (100 % chance innocent) or another player (small chance of being guilty), then the other player should be lynched.

So, from the perspective of the team (and in mafia, it's all about the team, not the individual), it doesn't make sense to be willing to die.

Two other things: a) why would anyone be willing to die instead of another player in this game? In this game, the only ones having a really good reason to be lynched instead of another player, are the grunts wanting to get lynched to save their godfather; b) voting yourself is a cunning move, a last minute vote switch can easily tip the balance when you're in the lead with another player.

Considering a), your behaviour makes me want to stick to my vote for Sigurd.

[LittleGrizzly]

Firstly I have to say i feel a little ucomfortable that we are going by sasaki's suspects, YLC he built a case against, and then Sigurd he mentioned in his list and voted for. Since that post YLC and Sigurd have been the only ones in the running, not that sasaki is definetely scum but i always thinks its a bit dangerous to have one person basically setting the tone for the possible lynches, this is part of the reason i stuck with my Jolt vote as a means to offer an alternative..

Secondly YLC your attitude stinks, the town is supposed to work together but you seem determined to work against it, whatever you think of Sigurd you now for sure your 100% innocent (assuming you aren't the mafia) and thus you should actively try to stay alive for the sake of the town, the only good reason to sacrifice yourself is to save some kind of power town role....

I think if your aim is to keep Sigurd alive, you have failed and actively encouraged some people to work against you and lynch Sigurd. If you are scum and your aim is to prove your innocence, again you have failed, you have proven your a bad townie and will probably be lynched at some point when were struggling to think off good lynch targets, and this is where we shall waste a valuable lynch if you are not scum..

so a bad townie or some very risky mafia play...

[ULC]

*sighs* Ah, the inablility and blindness of others sometimes. It's all well and good though.

I bet the mafia are sure they are 100% innocent as well too. In fact, everyone is innocent, just ask them. My being innocent to myself does nothing, proves nothing, and should not be used in anyway shape or form to decide my own actions, since it obviously has no barring on others as well.

[Andres]

*sighs* Ah, the inablility and blindness of others sometimes. It's all well and good though.

I bet the mafia are sure they are 100% innocent as well too. In fact, everyone is innocent, just ask them. My being innocent to myself does nothing, proves nothing, and should not be used in anyway shape or form to decide my own actions, since it obviously has no barring on others as well.

Ehm, so, if you're own behaviour seems scummy to you, you're going to vote yourself, even if you know for sure that you're innocent?



That doesn't help your team, now does it?

If you think Sigurd is innocent and if you know you're innocent yourself, then why don't you take a look at other possible suspects? If you would stop focusing on yourself, the accusations against you and Sigurd, and read the posts to find a suspect, then who seems the most suspicious to you?

That would be more helpful than just sighing

[ULC]

*pokes* Like I said, blind. And it is good you remain so.

[LittleGrizzly]

*sighs* Ah, the inablility and blindness of others sometimes. It's all well and good though.

For someone who thinks of themself as a bad player you sure seem to think you now a lot better than everyone else...

I bet the mafia are sure they are 100% innocent as well too.

Anyone you ask will tell you they are innocent...

My being innocent to myself does nothing, proves nothing, and should not be used in anyway shape or form to decide my own actions, since it obviously has no barring on others as well.

Noone can know who is innocent and who is not, if you are just a regular townie you can only ever be sure of your own innocence, and that is why you never sacrifice yourself for another (unless you strongly believe they are a power role) because whilst you are 100% sure of your innocence considering sigurd's limited contributions you can be nowhere near as sure of sigurd's innocence...

So you are basically (assuming your a townie) lynching a gaurenteed innocent to save someone who you 'think' isn't mafia...

Which is.... bad play...

[Andres]

*pokes* Like I said, blind. And it is good you remain so.

By all means, open my eyes. Through pm if necessary.

[naut]

Attacked? Attacked how? I didn't even vote for him!

I only suggested to suicide or get replaced rather then wasting a lynch for him!

Yes, your right. I got you mixed up with taka somehow.

Unvote Vote: taka

[Beefy187]

Yes, your right. I got you mixed up with taka somehow.

Unvote Vote: taka

Well in that case, sorry for the ! s.. I realised that came out bit more agressive then I intended it to be.

[TinCow]

YLC, you put forth interesting mafia philosophy, but it doesn't help the town in any way in the actual game. You are now intentionally and knowingly making things difficult for the town. If you're truly townie, then you're not helping. You're a legit lynch for this reason. You've got no one but yourself to blame for a wasted lynch.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

YLC:

Voting for yourself is a very WIFOM strategy. I have done it, but only after arguing my innocence for numerous posts as an innocent townie about to be lynched. I was trying, desparately to signal that I was town. I got lynched. "I don't think you should lynch so-and-so, so kill me instead" is a really poor tactic.

The whole point of putting votes on Sigurd was to get him to respond and at length....FOR HIMSELF.

Your parsiflage has re-centered the ENTIRE discussion around you. However, it has not centered on your innocence, guilt or anything else, but on your condescending re-statements about us "not getting it" and the town frustration. WHAT HAVE WE LEARNED?


Sigurd:

Not quite sanguine about you yet, but I acknowledge that my only evidence against you -- so far -- has been brevity of posts and a post frequency that matches one of your previous "lurker mafia tactics" games. The real goal for me was to get you engaged and build evidence on you one way or the other. That process has begun, so...

Unvote: Sigurd


However, my post evaluations did not spotlight only Sigurd's behavior. Rythmic, in only 10 posts, has managed to record 6 votes. In fact, he had 5 votes in the first 6 posts. So, why such assiduous attention to not getting wogged without really putting a lot into the discussion?

Vote: Rythmic


Others of interest are Taka for his similar vote but not discuss much approach, and Grizzly/Jolt for the ongoing vote fued. That feud is classic mafia to set up a "but I voted against her/him twice!" defense. No such votes were put out when any REAL pressure might have been exerted.

THoughts?

[naut]

One word Seamus, hangover.

Also, you may want to bold your vote.

[LittleGrizzly]

and Grizzly/Jolt for the ongoing vote fued. That feud is classic mafia to set up a "but I voted against her/him twice!" defense. No such votes were put out when any REAL pressure might have been exerted.

I made both those votes when there were a fair few people left to vote, i also though i had decent reasoning behind it and explained my reasoning, i may be tempted to put a vote on a fellow mafia but i wouldn't have the guts to start the voting and questioning of my fellow scum... i think the main thing that really blows this idea out the water is Jolt's reaction, he made himself look kinda scummy with his impassioned defence, if it was a premade play between the two of us i would imagine he would have had a less scummy response...

I have basically sent a fellow mafia to the gallows once in midgaard saga II but at that point alot of suspicion was on sarathos anyway... i will explain in a little more deatil if anyone wants...

Rythmic... thats a hell of a long hagover...