Spies

[Marquis de Said]

EYG, have you had any experiences where you get a spy in an enemy province before they build a BF and leave them there? Or a province that was yours and was taken over by an enemy? Doesn’t the BF only stop/attempt to kill spies and assassins when they enter?

If a spy enters a province without a border fort, and later the BF is built he will have the normal chance of getting killed. I've lost 5-star spies that way. When I checked the following year, the AI had built a border fort.

I know this doesn't directly answer your second question, but it reminded me of a couple of instances where I've lost a spy in a province with a BF that I had just taken over that turn. For example, in the same year, I sent a spy and an invading army to, say, Constantinople which had a BF. After ending the year and winning the battle I received a message telling me that my spy had been caught by enemy bodyguards.

[Marquis de Said]

Careful training and about 30 - 40 rebellions, revealed vices, treason trials and warnings about attacks can eventually produce guys like this.



My name's al-Ikhshid, Hisham al-Ikhshid.

[EatYerGreens]

Kewl.

My bet is that it'll take the 65th event, or several 'big-fish' enemy agent captures to get him his 7th star.

Based on geometric progression, six stars means 32 successful events.
I guess that enemy agents are worth so many points, according to their star rating, such that a caught 3-star enemy is worth 4 'points' even though it's only one event. I could be wrong though.

It's risky to second-guess how CA implemented it but you could also apply the geometric progression to an agent's capture probability, with each extra star halving the likelihood.

Say, for the sake of argument, that it's 95% chance of capture at level zero, versus BF's. Halving 0.95 six times in a row (ie {0.5^6}) takes it down to 0.0148 (1.48%), or about one year in 67.

Not utterly uncatchable but very comfortable odds.

[Roark]

The "extra points" apply to generals and faction leaders too, IIRC. Remember that bloke who came on the forum and said his assassin went up 2 ranks after one kill (I think it was Guy of Gisbourne vs a V6 pope)?

[littlebktruck]

One way I've found of safely training spies is to hire a useless merc unit. In my game i've used a unit of turcoman foot. This unit has exceptionally low loyalty, so it is easy for low valour spies to get the leader executed. If I have a particularly bad run and the leader gets very high spy resistance, I'll just disband him and get another.

[EatYerGreens]

The "extra points" apply to generals and faction leaders too, IIRC. Remember that bloke who came on the forum and said his assassin went up 2 ranks after one kill (I think it was Guy of Gisbourne vs a V6 pope)?

Yep, that makes perfect sense to me. I don't remember the actual message but could search it soon enough.

I neglected to mention generals and leaders only because I rarely bother attacking them myself. That is mainly due to the rotten odds you get offered even with a 4-star agent against a lowly 1*, 2* target. I've had it up to the eyeballs with "83% chance of success" missions failing miserably on a suspiciously regular basis (on home soil too, so BWT/BF not a factor) so, anything below 50:50 I consider to be a potential waste of a perfectly good agent. Typically, I have my best agents as leader/heir/top-general's bodyguard, until a worthy mission target gets sighted abroad, so I'm doubly aggrieved by the loss of any of them, especially against supposedly 'soft' targets.

It's interesting you described that as VALOUR-6 Pope, not COMMAND-6.
I need to research into this more deeply as valour and Command stars do not always correlate. In previous threads, people used the words 'stars' and 'valour' interchangeably when talking about their agents but for generals and leaders they have distinct and different meanings.

Thinking about it, assuming Guy was 4*, no previous kills, thus 8 points and Pope was 6V, or 6*, signifying "32 victories, nil defeats" (see footnote) and thus 32 points, Guy moves up to 8+32(+1??) = 40 (41?) points, making him jump from 4* to 6* in one go. Other permutations are possible but a jump from 5* to 7* is that much harder to explain, unless both Guy and the Pope were just a few points shy of receiving their next star at the time. It's been a while since I've had GdeG and forget what rating he starts at. I'm convinced it's 5* but could be wrong.

Footnote:
Shogun players will recall how daimyos/generals showed a tally of battles fought, won and lost on their info parchment. Thus you could see how close a target was to losing a star, should you defeat them soon, or to gaining a star making it imperative that you make an assassin attack soon, before the odds against it succeeding drop down yet another notch. No such luxury in MTW/VI.

[Roark]

Come to think of it, it may have been on the ezyboard...

I can't find the post here.

[dgfred]

I've tried to keep 2 or 3 star assassins and a spy/bishop/border fort in each
province after reading great post here from you guys . Although I get the
messages of enemy assassins/spies getting killed off in the empire , none
of my assassins or spies seem to be getting any credit for it. Also if I move
an assassins or its target moves somewhere with a border fort in the province, they are dead meat . What are your thoughts on it?

[Joshwa]

It's damn annoying that's what! I always check what the target's mission is. Sometimes, an emmisary can be just passing through on his way somewhere else, and it would be suicide to send your man trekking through europe after him. It the mission is just spying, however, its a good chance theyll be staying put

[Roark]

Border forts steal potential valour from your counterspying agents. Don't build them in thoroughfares.

[Zild]

Can anybody give any more info on the Syria valor bonus for spies, please? In my many years of playing and visiting these forums, I'd never actually heard about it!

Are there any other such 'hidden bonuses'?

Any idea why they are hidden?

[Knight Templar]

Syria has valor bonus for training assassins. No province has valor bonus for spies.

[EatYerGreens]

Border forts steal potential valour from your counterspying agents. Don't build them in thoroughfares.

I've repeated this advice many times. I only wish I could have done it in as few words.

To expand slightly, ports are like magnets to all travelling agents. Use one of your own as a 'training zone' and, at most put a BWT on it, since BWT plus counterspy (ideally, better than 1*) means two chances of making a capture.

As enemy Emissaries pass through your port, enemy assassins may follow a year behind them (you know what it's like when you're the one on the chase). Behave as if you were trying to protect your own Emissary from a 'tail' and move your trainee assassin (or, optionally, your best one for further advancement) to that port on that turn. He should make any potential catch the following year.

Also, I tend to avoid putting BFs on any province bordering on enemy/neutral/allied territory. In the event that they captured such a BF'd province off me, even with 'facilities damaged' that just gifts them a free BWT to immediately spy into my interior provinces and advances their building programme by one year, assuming I'm somehow unable to regain it rapidly.

Not forgetting that a 0* spy/assassin of yours, within the lost province, might be caught immediately, if BWT's were still up. IIRC, facility damages aren't inflicted until the castle/fort finally falls, so it's not even safe to send in no-star spies to trigger a populist revolt until whatever BWTs or BFs you had built are finally broken down.

[EatYerGreens]

Also if I move an assassins or its target moves somewhere with a border fort in the province, they are dead meat . What are your thoughts on it?

BFs are equivalent to a Valour-2 spy/assassin and I've a feeling the odds are stacked in favour of the defending counterspy, such that 2* spy isn't good enough to beat BF's. I'd say get them to 3*, as a minimum, before letting them stray into enemy territory.

WHen the target and your assassin start the turn in the same province and you order the attack, sometimes you find that, after End Year, you find the target has moved and your assassin is still where he was. If you see that, just pick him up and drop him, to cancel the mission. He has achieved the objective of getting the enemy agent off your lands. Rather than risk an almost certain loss, in a now pointless pursuit, just set him back to counterspying.

The AI does appear to 'cheat' in that it will leave an Emissary/Priest on spying duty and not move them for years, then you move your assassin into the province and order an attack. Suddenly they decide to bugger off and suck you into the BF trap. Where no port is involved, they always manage to keep one province ahead and don't stop moving again until your agent is dead. Evidently, it knows what you're doing! With ports present, it's the same result, only quicker, since they know where all the 'safe' ports are located.

Here's an example of a method I found to work just about infallibly (only exceptions being failures by 0* vs 0* on 86% chance of success).

Enemy target is in Naples, my territory, which has a port. It thinks it's safe due to BWTs and ability to do the port-escape trick.
My assassin is in any one of my other ports. I do not move him to Naples then drop on the target, I pick him up where he is and drop him on the target. He will move on autopilot and make the attack. Port to port is unambiguously a direct route (overland they take seemingly crazy paths). Mission success after end year, since the AI didn't see it coming and hadn't planned to move out that turn. If they did move, the attack 'misses' and can be cancelled at that point and, being my province, he doesn't get caught.
Even if other easy targets are in Naples, I move that assassin out to another home port and use a different one for the next attack.
Alternate the attacks in this manner until the Pope stops sending his Ems/Bishops/Inquisitors onto my turf.

I got a pair rapidly up from 0* to 4* in this manner but the game got its own back when I ventured to let both of them out of friendly territory for the first time, in pursuit of alliance missions and lost both of them on the same turn, having passed through maybe two BF ports on the way.

[Roark]

EYG: I try to be succinct, because I'm posting from work. (Naughty naughty...)

Kudos to you, though mate. Your thorough explanations have resolved many an issue for me concerning game mechanics. Keep up the good work.

Can anybody give any more info on the Syria valor bonus for spies, please? In my many years of playing and visiting these forums, I'd never actually heard about it!

Are there any other such 'hidden bonuses'?

Any idea why they are hidden?

All assassins trained in Syria start with 2 stars, plus any upgrades you give them (via Alehouse, Drinking Den and/or Rookery).

My guess is that this is supposed to be representative of the presence of the Old Man of the Mountain, effectively the "Grandmaster" of the Hashashin. Nasty guys.

[dgfred]

EYG: I try to be succinct, because I'm posting from work. (Naughty naughty...)

Kudos to you, though mate. Your thorough explanations have resolved many an issue for me concerning game mechanics. Keep up the good work.



All assassins trained in Syria start with 2 stars, plus any upgrades you give them (via Alehouse, Drinking Den and/or Rookery).

My guess is that this is supposed to be representative of the presence of the Old Man of the Mountain, effectively the "Grandmaster" of the Hashashin. Nasty guys.

I second that on the Kudos! Thanks EYG.

[Knight Templar]

Also if I move an assassins or its target moves somewhere with a border fort in the province, they are dead meat . What are your thoughts on it?

Today I sent 30 assassins, mostly ranks 1 and 2, three of them had rank 3, in province with BF to kill Sicilian king. Result: 1 assassin caught while trying to kill the king, 1 assassin managed to assassinate king , 25 assassins killed by BF and 3 assassins left. In total.......4/30 alive

[dgfred]

Today I sent 30 assassins, mostly ranks 1 and 2, three of them had rank 3, in province with BF to kill Sicilian king. Result: 1 assassin caught while trying to kill the king, 1 assassin managed to assassinate king , 25 assassins killed by BF and 3 assassins left. In total.......4/30 alive

Holy mackeral , I knew it was bad, but not that bad .

Are you testing on normal, hard or expert?

[Knight Templar]

Holy mackeral , I knew it was bad, but not that bad .

Are you testing on normal, hard or expert?

I was playing on normal

[yesdachi]

4/30 alive

Training cost vs. result is still a good deal for a dead king. right?

[yesdachi]

I second that on the Kudos! Thanks EYG.

Kudos from me too!

and i also post from work. sshhhhh, alt tab.

[EatYerGreens]

Many thanks for your appreciation guys.

But it's not over yet!

Knight Templar's post blows a rather l a r g e hole in my thinking about how BF's operate, in terms of how many catch attempts can be made per turn. I would have expected that 'swamping' like that would have allowed almost all to get through unhindered.

Call me over-cautious but it would never have occurred to me to send that many agents all on the same mission so I'd have missed the opportunity he took to come out with some interesting and very conclusive data.

It seems like there's a capture 'die roll' against every single agent you send into the province and any that do survive the journey have an additional die roll for the mission itself. As we see, one got through the BF but the King killed him while defending himself. That variation might never have shown up if only five had been used, for example.

The one unknown factor is whether the target king had his own counterspy, who succeeded, 25 times over. If so, there is now a rather nasty 5 or 6 star agent at large in that game (valour transference of that many 1s, 2s & 3s), unless it was faction elimination time?

I'd love to have 30 agents to spare in my current campaign.
In fact, I'd love to have 30 agents. All in good time, I suppose but it'll be a long while before I can come close to testing on this scale. Hopefully I'll remember to hang onto a gamesave where I'm well stocked with assassins and there are still faction leaders left to attack.

Kudos to KT for sharing that info with us, not to mention trying it in the first place.

[Patron]

I never use spies, they never seem to do anything. I once put 40 spies in 1 province, most of them valour 3 and it never went into rebellion. They very rarely manage to reveal a general's vices or open a castle's gates, because they are either killed by BFs or just fail over and over again and when they do they usually reveal pride and create jedi princes, or even worse jedi kataphraktoi and boyars.

The only usage for spies I can see is for your own personal pleasure, annoying your generals and for defense. They seem like a more functional replacement for border forts so you don't have to spend a few turns guarding a province after you've conquerred it whilst you build your BF and also once a spy captures loads of assassins you can send it out to attempt to do one of the useless things I mentionned.

How many spies equals the agent capturing power of a BF?

Where do you get all this information about the possibility of success?

[Knight Templar]

Kudos to KT for sharing that info with us, not to mention trying it in the first place.

Thanks

Call me over-cautious but it would never have occurred to me to send that many agents all on the same mission so I'd have missed the opportunity he took to come out with some interesting and very conclusive data.

I'd love to have 30 agents to spare in my current campaign.
In fact, I'd love to have 30 agents.

It was 16-years old Sicilian king, when I killed him I eliminated Sicilians as a faction. I had to be sure he'll be killed.

It seems like there's a capture 'die roll' against every single agent you send into the province and any that do survive the journey have an additional die roll for the mission itself. As we see, one got through the BF but the King killed him while defending himself. That variation might never have shown up if only five had been used, for example.
The one unknown factor is whether the target king had his own counterspy, who succeeded, 25 times over. If so, there is now a rather nasty 5 or 6 star agent at large in that game (valour transference of that many 1s, 2s & 3s), unless it was faction elimination time?

I looked in ex-Sicilian provinces I had occupied and found no Tavern (before the catsle was taken)...
Many times I send 2-star or even 1-star assassin in a province with BF just to do one kill and in the next move I call them back. The BF catches him in 1/5 cases. So I suprised a lot when BF found 5/6 my assassins in case with Sic king.

[EatYerGreens]

How many spies equals the agent capturing power of a BF?

A 2-star spy ought to be equivalent to it.
Lesser spies have reduced individual chances but you can make up for this with greater numbers. Without solid data, I am unable to say whether two 2-star spies are equally as good as one 2-star.

Where do you get all this information about the possibility of success?

I was referring to the assassination mission screen, where you are told the chances of success and get a choice to abort or proceed.

[Advo-san]

I m getting the feeling spies are more efficient in captuling enemy agents than border forts. Once I place a spy in a port province, in every turn he smokes out an enemy spy or assassin. I also mass use spies against the enemy general when attacking a province, I got valour lowers every now and then.

[EatYerGreens]

I m getting the feeling spies are more efficient in captuling enemy agents than border forts.

Certainly so. After 4 captures, they should be up to at least 3-star, which makes them better than a BF, AFAIC.

You're going to need them with high star ratings too. Remember that the AI will have as much success in sneaking their better agents through your BF's as you have getting yours past theirs. So some of your 3-star-plus agents may be better employed patrolling to and fro, on friendly territory.

To the best of my knowledge, BF's do not accrue valour stars in the way that spies and assassins can.

As illustrated by KnightTemplar's example, they are capable of catching a shipload of agents in one go but its capture odds, whilst reasonably good against 1,2 & 3-star agents, will never improve as a consequence of making lots of catches.

At least I hope not!