daos, i've never heard of or seen such a thing as an 18-man strong unit standing up to a full cavalry charge. they'll either rout or get wiped out. you may have done something incredibly wrong to lose like that. sad.



arkanin, i don't question your prowess in gaming, but realism is first and foremost the primary objective of EB, i believe. historically, cavalry specifically designed for charging was really meant for nothing but that. lancers (and other 'charging' cavs) were never intended to last in a prolonged melee - they were meant to charge at the weakest link of the army (such as some demoralized, bloodied, and tired soldiers facing a wall of sarissas, oblivious to the lancers lining up behind them). after the charge, what they're expected to do is, a)if the unit they charged routed, pursue and kill or b)if the unit they charged didn't rout, or if they were needed somewhere else, to pull out very quickly and reform their formation. if you read some kind of article concerning the hellenistic period in wikipedia, i think you'd find some reference to that. the decision of the EB team to give the cavalry inferior melee stats compared to infantry was, i think, intentional so as to integrate that reality into the game. there are cavalry that could stand up in a melee, such as the cataphracts (catatanks ), but they are a special kind. some cavalry are actually meant for melee, to be able to provide support when and where it is needed, screen the infantry, and deter any other cavalry threatening to flank the infantry... but don't expect them to launch bodies 10 ft into the air with the ferocity of their charge.

as for the what you perceive as cost-ineffectiveness of the units. if you could try to create an army that is well balanced, with ranged units, infantry units to hold the line, skirmishers to harass the enemy, cavalry for hammering or support... and then throw in some elites to hold them all together, then i guarantee you that you will be satisfied. the army may cost a bunch, but it'll stand up to anything you might encounter because of the variety and versatility that only a combined-arms force can provide, ensuring that this army will last a VERY, VERY, VERY long time, lasting through many many battles WITHOUT retraining all but the skirmishers (who are traditionally there to be whittled away in the place of relatively more important units). i think cost effectiveness relates more to how you use your units as opposed to just spamming them.

one thing you might want to try is to gather enough money to create an army with, say the macedonians. get 3 units at least of pezhetairoi phalangites (but i highly recommend 2 pezhetairoi and 1 argyraspidai combination). get some decent spear-armed or sword-armed infantry to protect the flanks, and fend off any maneuver or attempt that would threaten the integrity of your line, thus ensuring that the pike wall is solid throughout the battle. i suggest you get 5 of them, 1 to protect the right, 1 to protect the left, and three to support any point on your line that needs supporting. get a decent amount of archers and slingers (i personally prefer 2 units of cretan or bosphoran archers and 1 of any kind of slinger, and 1 of any kind of low-level archer). use the archers to reduce the support of the enemy's heavy infantry, such as light infantry, skirmisher, and cavalry, so that they won't be too much of a nuisance later on in the battle. use the pikemen to create an impenetrable wall of pikes, at least 4 men deep, or if you have more pikes, 8.
this will be the men who will do the 'anvil' part of the alexandrian system - they will stand there, poke their sarissas at the men in front of them, whittle away the enemy soldiers' morale, stamina, and numbers (yes, even the elite ones). let them come to you. let them attack. let them wear themselves out. and of course, plug in any holes with your reserve infantry (the extra spear/sword-armed infantry). by this time it's a matter of sending your enemy straight to hell (or heaven, for that matter). that's where the cavalry comes in. have preferably the equivalent of 1/3 of your total force composed of cavalry. of these, have maybe 2 light cavalry for harassment, support, or 'clean up', though this isn't required. what is important is the medium cavalry with lances(like prodromoi, for quick strikes and even quicker retreats , or lonchophoroi, if you plan to hang on for a while - but only for a while) that'll do most of the charging. have them in reserve, preferably hidden, only moving if there is a threat that your infantry guarding the flanks can't deal with. wait for the right moment, then, when the enemy is down in morale and stamina, release them, circling to the rear and wiping out any opposition. then, reform, and or order them all - or at least, most of them - to charge at the same time. you will see that at the moment of impact, a wave of blinking flags - white, [color], white, [color] - will manifest itself throughout the enemy army, signifying a mass rout - and total victory.

you might think this tactic is too defensive for your liking. knowing that you are a very proficient gamer, i am sure that you can device another way to effectively use a combined-arms army of any faction. but just so you know, by using this tactic i was pretty successful. despite my lack of skill, i was able to to completely annihilate four and a half stacks with a 2/3rds stack. why just 2/3rds? because the army i'm using (as makedon of course) has been campaigning in italy for 35 years, with the same general (obviously an EB war god by now), fighting battle after battle(my last count was 106, i lost count after that), usually outnumbered at least 2 to 1, and getting like, 1500-3000 kills with only 10-50 casualties at the most. and what's more, in those 35 bloody years of war (or 140 EB turns) i only retrained 7 times. now that's cost-effectiveness for you.



p.s. : wow, i never thought reminiscing that campaign could be so fun!
it took 35 years because believe it or not, i was actually keeping rome alive.
the purpose was so that they could develop their armies not only so that i'll have bigger and bigger challenges, but also so that they could keep the northern peoples (arverni, aedui, etc.) in check. i even went to war with carthage 5 times, 2 aiding rome, and 3 fighting both (because they got into an alliance). i went so far as to give rome 50,000 mnai every 4 years as a gift, so they could continue to produce armies and be manipulated indefinitely. until now i'm in possession of just taras, rhegion, syrakusa, messana and lilibeo, although i'd occassionally rampage through italy and sack capua and rome, then give it back (of course not before being exterminated and stripped of every building in sight). i was even able to prevent rome from capturing the 3 northern, massively garrisoned eleutheroi cities (forgot the names, but one is ligurian i think, near where genoa is supposed to be) by keeping their armies constantly occupied (and constantly utterly defeated).

you see, after playing EB and RTW for four years now, i've gradually lost interest in this whole idea of 'conqueing the world is victory'. think about it. what if you could instead be a power broker of empires? what if instead of completely taking over a region, you could instead impose a protectorate and practically have a pet nation? just a thought i implemented- and it turned out great.

one other trick i employed is that i'd let multiple stacks attack me so that i won't have to waste time chasing them all over the map just to kill them. what i'd do is i'd goad them into battle by besieging one of their cities, and voila, instant enemy-magnet.

ok i'm off-topic. enough.




i hope this'll help you to appreciate EB more.