New Faction Leader Question

[ArtistofWarfare]

Decided to make a new thread on this to keep things neat...my other thread doesn't need another bump yet anyway...

Question:

Quick and to the point: I was already excomm'd and on this next turn I took NO further hostile action of any kind (there was no hostile action involving me at all..no battles at land or at sea, no invasions...nothing, simply recruitment). Not to avoid anything, as said in my thread- The excomm really didn't hamper me. Anyway, I'm recruiting, defending and organzing a massive attack...I receive the warning that my Faction Leader has died (this was expected..he was turning 69) and that the Heir has taken over. As said, this is expected. However, I also got a message informing me that the Pope has requested all Catholic factions to Crusade against my lands. This was a surprise because a) I didn't recall any message being issued about this...I thought this was automatically implied when I got excomm'd. I didn't realize an excomm and a call for crusades against your lands were two seperate acts b) My excommunication was still lifted due to the death of my Doge and arrival of my new Heir to the throne.

Why would the Pope call for Crusades against my land, if the excommunication was lifted that same turn?

Perhaps he decided to issue the call the turn prior, and my King dying occurred after the point that the message was going to be delivered regardless? I can't recall exactly which message occurred first in sequence, but they did occur on the same turn.

So...if the excomm is lifted and I have a new Heir should I simply disregard this message? Is it just basically an expired, outdated message? No Crusades against me? heh...

Other quick questions:

1) The obvious- Why did he escalate his sanctions against me? I'm getting very powerful, not going to do a writeup now. 11 provinces, around 10k give or take in profit a turn, the largest navy, virtually unable to be invaded, stable, and we already have a huge land army but are building an even larger one. It's huge. In my campaign questions thread we still hadn't even ascertained for certain why he excomm'd me in the first place (although we're almost sure a bribing of a castle garrison was regarded as a "hostile act" and this was the cause) still- Did he call for the Crusades, an escalation in sanctions, due to the fact that his excomm had no slowing effect on my power and I have only build larger armies on my borders?

2) In the usual case- Does a new Heir and lifting of excomm also lift all prior warnings as well? In other words- Is not only your excomm, but also any warnings given to you to not attack other factions for 10 years "sanctions" lifted as well?

Let me also add to this that although France was also excomm'd along with me the year prior (we're not at war yet) I did not get any message stating anything about the Pope calling for Crusades against French lands. Interesting huh?

It may help to refer to my campaign questions thread (1133 AD) for reference but this is definitely getting interesting...

It's currently, 1143 AD...and I'm almost ready to flip another turn but I want to just get some consultation on this first since I had a minute to write a thread here...

My campaign thread is not 100% up to date, it's a few years behind...but other things have happened. I'm only more powerful and more secure though, building and teching up like crazy as I build several huge armies for defense, and for expansion. Let me add- My campaign thread states I have 12 provinces, I only had 11, it's a mis count. This thread is accurate, and therefore no...there's been no loss of province by me.

Thanks for the help, as always guys...This is an interesting course of events and I don't remember being in any situation where we basically had a Pope that I wasn't concerned about by 1140, was this powerful as a nation, and had the Pope just keep increasingly stepping up pressure against me even when I do not commit the actions that would traditionally justify this via the "laws of the Church" so to speak.

I mean it's basically: Proxy war by the Pope against me spearheaded by a Sicilian/Hungarian attack. We just cripple the coalition offensive and expand due to it but do not break the rules of our warnings. We're excomm'd. We have a non hostile turn (no military action of any kind involving our faction) but continue to dig in and build up for one turn, all as part of a plan to launch our first major attack on 2 fronts (this first "round of war" was a counter attack for us...not a true offensive) in rapid fashion, with nothing to slow us down. Boom- Call for Crusades against us as our King dies and as our excommunication is lifted.

Again, details in my thread and of course this is massively oversimplifying it but that's the basic chronological order of events in summary here pertaining to this.

It's quite interesting and thought provoking ...

I'll save my details of my campaign and plans for another thread but just FYI- I'm almost definitely launching my attack regardless of any of this...For many reasons. I'm ready for it and my enemies are not and I could become a superpower asap due to it, and it's only the early 1140's currently. (We're already possibly bordering "superpower" status between our navy and land holdings as well as economy, infrastructure, military tech). Still, I'd like to just gather as much info about this as I can right now because a) it's the only thing I have any questions about right now...for the first time in several years things are relatively straightforward in my planning and I've organized my plans well in the past few days b) I also thought that the sharing of this might be found interesting by some others. I don't recall either experiencing, or reading/hearing of this scenario or one similar to it.


added w/ edit: Is it possible I misinterpreted the warning I got and it was telling me that the Pope had called for all Catholic factions to ATTACK me? Or is the only possible call that he issues along those lines for a Crusade? - That would answer my question about the excomm and call for Crusades being two separate acts...

Thought of one more thing ....then I'm off (sorry)- IIRC you cannot change your Heir correct? He is set? Of course I know you can kill him or throw him to the wolves in battle (always a laugh) but you cannot physically reassign the title of "Heir" from him to one of his brothers can you?

Thank you- 'Night

[Kaidonni]

Hmmmm...when I lost one of my Venetian Doges to old age in XL recently, I did have a warning against me not to fight the Sicillians, and was about to reach the excommunication date - then my Doge died. I wasn't excommunicated. I continued attacking Sicillian vessels, without excommunication or warning. A number of turns later I was warned once again, but it does seem that losing your leader when you're about to be excommed knocks out the warning, and you get a short new lease of life.

[Norkus]

Getting a new leader indeed "resets" all previous warnings and excommunication. That is at least my experience.

I am quite certain that the Pope asked the Catholic countries to lauch a crusade against you, not attack you. As far as I remember the Pope asks for crusades, not attacks.
Besides, your catholic neighbours will only be able to launch a crusade against you if you are excommunicated, so right now you are home free!

[macsen rufus]

When the Pope calls for a Crusade and for "all true sons of the Curch to chastise you mightily" then the other Catholic factions may or may not respond. Usually a few do. But as per Norkus' post, now you are no longer excommunicated they can no longer launch a crusade at you - and if they had responded instantly (ie "during" the end-year turn period, effectively just before your king died) then those crusades would take one step and instantly disband as your lands are now back safely in Catholic hands (ie yours, now that you've been recommed). I don't think the call is for an attack per se, just you don't have to pay the Pope to launch those Crusades he's 'called for'. Generally when these calls go out I see the AI factions launching actual Crusades rather than standard armies at the Pope's latest "bogeyman of the moment".

Your last question about the heirs, I'm afraid that MTW is very strict about primogeniture - the only way to remove an heir from the succession is to remove him entirely, you do not have an option to shift your favours to another son.... (more's the pity, still, those suicide battles are fun )

1) The obvious- Why did he escalate his sanctions against me?

I think the obvious answer is he's a meddlesome god-botherer who thinks he should be the most powerful (or influential) one around in Catholic Europe. It's not you personally he objects to, just your threat to his power. Ultimately he just deserves a good slapping and putting into his place, with a bit of stern advice about separating spiritual and temporal leadership

[Ravencroft]

Gotta agree with Macsen.

Apparently, the Pope's coding means that he can call for crusades vs factions which are non-Catholic, which probably includes excommed factions(well, that's what I can see from within the game).

[Martok]

Why would the Pope call for Crusades against my land, if the excommunication was lifted that same turn?

Perhaps he decided to issue the call the turn prior, and my King dying occurred after the point that the message was going to be delivered regardless? I can't recall exactly which message occurred first in sequence, but they did occur on the same turn.

That's it exactly. It's happened to me a few times where my ex-commed faction leader died in the same year the Pope called for Crusades against me.

So...if the excomm is lifted and I have a new Heir should I simply disregard this message? Is it just basically an expired, outdated message? No Crusades against me? heh...

Correct. The only way you could have a Crusade against you now is if another faction had launched one that same year. You're safe now that you're back in good Papal standing.

Other quick questions:

1) The obvious- Why did he escalate his sanctions against me? I'm getting very powerful, not going to do a writeup now. 11 provinces, around 10k give or take in profit a turn, the largest navy, virtually unable to be invaded, stable, and we already have a huge land army but are building an even larger one. It's huge. In my campaign questions thread we still hadn't even ascertained for certain why he excomm'd me in the first place (although we're almost sure a bribing of a castle garrison was regarded as a "hostile act" and this was the cause) still- Did he call for the Crusades, an escalation in sanctions, due to the fact that his excomm had no slowing effect on my power and I have only build larger armies on my borders?

It's pretty much automatic for the Pope to call Crusades againsted ex-commed factions, although he usually waits a few years after the excommunication before doing so. As Ravencroft indicated, he's basically coded for this behavior: Ex-com a faction, wait a few years, then call for Crusades against said faction.

2) In the usual case- Does a new Heir and lifting of excomm also lift all prior warnings as well? In other words- Is not only your excomm, but also any warnings given to you to not attack other factions for 10 years "sanctions" lifted as well?

Right. A new faction leader cancels & resets excommunications and all Papal warnings.

Let me also add to this that although France was also excomm'd along with me the year prior (we're not at war yet) I did not get any message stating anything about the Pope calling for Crusades against French lands. Interesting huh?

I won't claim to be certain of this, but I *think* the Pope can only call for Crusades against one ex-commed faction at a time (somewhat similiar to how you can only receive 1 Papal warning per 10-year period). Now that you're a Catholic in good standing again, he'll probably call for Crusades against the French in the next couple years now.

added w/ edit: Is it possible I misinterpreted the warning I got and it was telling me that the Pope had called for all Catholic factions to ATTACK me? Or is the only possible call that he issues along those lines for a Crusade? - That would answer my question about the excomm and call for Crusades being two separate acts...

The Pope specifically calls for Crusades against ex-commed factions. That said, he'll cheerfully look the other way if someone launches a regular, non-Crusade attack against the ex-commed faction as well.

Thought of one more thing ....then I'm off (sorry)- IIRC you cannot change your Heir correct? He is set? Of course I know you can kill him or throw him to the wolves in battle (always a laugh) but you cannot physically reassign the title of "Heir" from him to one of his brothers can you?

macsen rufus is correct -- you're stuck with that heir unless/until you get rid of him.

[ArtistofWarfare]

Wow are you guys great or what?

THANK YOU!!

As always- My thirst for knowledge here has been 100% satisfied.

Tonight's the night though...I'm "in the mood" to play moreso than I have been in several days and I have tons of time to play due to a snowstorm moving into my area. MTW's mother better worry...

All of Europe, Africa and the Middle East as well as the Catholic Church is waiting to see what to make of my new Doge. Will there be a policy change? Will we return to the policy set of 1087-1130 with peace and diplomacy being our main driver?

In reality- Quite the opposite. My new Doge is less influential and powerful than the previous but he has 2 command stars...the previous had none. We have other 2-5 star generals on the map currently. In other words...militarism is taking precedence and we find this time as an opportunity to demonstrate to the world that we're not only rich and powerful, but extremely aggressive, cunning and calculated.

A continued buildup of arms, a continued climb of technology, and a continued mass conscription of an Imperial Army is our Doge's first orders to his commanders...

[Heidrek]

If you're embarking on a conquest campaign, you MUST build at least a couple of the Constables Palace/Marshall's Palace/Admiralty type buillings for those titles. turning that 5* general into a 7* one is a HUGE boost - it'll take you forever to earn those extra 2 stars the regular way and will almost ensure he's more capable than the commanders he'll be facing.

Likewise those 2 and 3 star commanders. Commanders of this level are pretty common so it's unlikely they'll have an advantage over their oppoennts, but 5+ command generals are much harder to come by. Keeping one of these 2 command granting titles vacant means you can bestow an instant command boost to any general that might need it at home should you facw a counter attack.

Once you get a general up to 6+ stars, he becomes tough to stop and generally starts getting Virtues like Skilled Attacker/Defender etc, because he's always fighting battles and winning.

I can't overstate the importance of a strong commander. The valor boosts they give mean you will take fewer losses and inflict more from the same tropps, and the morale boosts mean your forces will be less likely to break and run, which in turn makes it more likely your opponents forces will.

Going to war with a 4 or 5 star general as your best commander is risky unless it can't be avoided. You want to outrank an enemy general by 2 command or more whenever possible. This sin't to say that you can't win this way, but it'll be harder, take longer and cost you more in both troops and money.

just my 2 cents - good luck!

[Spongie]

There's a point - I've gone through several kings who never set foot on the battlefield because when they die of old age, you lose the command stats (etc) whereas other generals keep theirs. Do most people tend to do this? I only started using my king to lead armies again when I read about how it affects the quality of heirs - he's jumped from being a 2-star to a 4-star general and is still only in his early 30s.

[wumpus]

Yo, ArtistofWarfare: Allow me to suggest--why don't you save your current campaign under a different filename? Then pursue the alternative plan that you have under this new filename (I don't think this is cheating--it's more like taking a peek at the next page of the book you're currently reading). In the meantime, your old campaign is kept unchanged for future use. See what happens next in your new continuation: do you remain excomm'd still? did one or so of the other factions launch a crusade against you? From my experience, it's not a quick thing to organize and launch a crusade the very next turn after the Pope calls for it--you have to have a chapter house, to have enough troops sufficient to fight in a distant land, extra money to support your crusade, etc., etc. So I don't think anybody would be able to launch a crusade against you in a jiffy (read "the very next turn"), so pursue your new savefile for several turns and find out IF (1) the excomm slapped on your new Doge really did take effect and (2) if so, whether somebody DID launch a crusade against you subsequently.

But your old campaign remains safe for you to continue properly in the future.

(But do you know what I'm thinking? I think the Pope is just secretly wishing to make war on you without openly declaring a war--the sneaky snake! And His Holiness would just want to do some harm on you because you have quite a powerful status already, so he excomms you, have the other factions tear you apart, and because you're near his Papal States, take over some of your wealth later. Quite a speculative scenario, don't you think?)

However, were I facing this situation and I didn't want to start a new savefile, I would just continue building up my troops. If my economy could afford it, I don't see any harm in making additions to an already humongous army in MTW.

Hawooh.

[wumpus]

There's a point - I've gone through several kings who never set foot on the battlefield because when they die of old age, you lose the command stats (etc) whereas other generals keep theirs. Do most people tend to do this? I only started using my king to lead armies again when I read about how it affects the quality of heirs - he's jumped from being a 2-star to a 4-star general and is still only in his early 30s.

Me, I would commit my king to war only if I'm assured that my heir is safely esconced in a castle in my heartland; but usually, it would be my heir that I'll have to lead my conquering army--but only if he has a younger brother who would become the heir if the current heir meets with a misfortune. This way, I would not be improving the blood of the current king's heir but that of the current heir's heir. I'm the conservative type, and I don't mind if I proceed slowly and safely. Hawooh.

[Martok]

There's a point - I've gone through several kings who never set foot on the battlefield because when they die of old age, you lose the command stats (etc) whereas other generals keep theirs. Do most people tend to do this? I only started using my king to lead armies again when I read about how it affects the quality of heirs - he's jumped from being a 2-star to a 4-star general and is still only in his early 30s.

It really depends on the situation. Using one's faction leader in battles early on in the game is indeed often a good idea, especially since there's a good chance he's one of your only decent generals at that point in the game.

Once your empire reaches a certain size, however (I want to say around 30 provinces or so), using your faction leader becomes a risky prospect....specifically, if you use him to command a battle in which you're the attacker. If you use your faction leader to lead an invading army into an enemy province, your empire tends to treat him as "cut off" -- just as if he were on Crusade/Jihad or stuck on island somewhere -- and your entire faction may suddenly erupt into civil war and/or massive rebellions everywhere. This doesn't always happens if/when you use your king in offensive battles, but there's a *very* signficant chance that it will. So be careful if you own a lot of territory!


Note: Using your faction leader to command *defensive* battles isn't a problem at all, regardless of how big your empire is. So if you have a large empire and a faction leader with a high Command rating, you could still park him on a disputed border province that's under threat of invasion. That way your king will have the opportunity to put his command stars to good use, but without endangering his empire.

[Roark]

I totally agree with Heidrek. A couple of superstar commanders tranforms an otherwise mediocre empire into an effective invasion machine.

[Kenshin the vega bound]

If you're embarking on a conquest campaign, you MUST build at least a couple of the Constables Palace/Marshall's Palace/Admiralty type buillings for those titles. turning that 5* general into a 7* one is a HUGE boost - it'll take you forever to earn those extra 2 stars the regular way and will almost ensure he's more capable than the commanders he'll be facing.

Likewise those 2 and 3 star commanders. Commanders of this level are pretty common so it's unlikely they'll have an advantage over their oppoennts, but 5+ command generals are much harder to come by. Keeping one of these 2 command granting titles vacant means you can bestow an instant command boost to any general that might need it at home should you facw a counter attack.

Once you get a general up to 6+ stars, he becomes tough to stop and generally starts getting Virtues like Skilled Attacker/Defender etc, because he's always fighting battles and winning.

I can't overstate the importance of a strong commander. The valor boosts they give mean you will take fewer losses and inflict more from the same tropps, and the morale boosts mean your forces will be less likely to break and run, which in turn makes it more likely your opponents forces will.

Going to war with a 4 or 5 star general as your best commander is risky unless it can't be avoided. You want to outrank an enemy general by 2 command or more whenever possible. This sin't to say that you can't win this way, but it'll be harder, take longer and cost you more in both troops and money.

just my 2 cents - good luck!

I consider this a sort of explot, since the none king commanders basicly live forever. I also like rping Kings and Princes, so I do my battles with them all the time.

[Knight of the Rose]

Well - you can always play with -greengenerals if you want to limit the age of your generals. However, that would only make the relevant buildings/provinces even more important.

[Emperor Mithdrates]

Its quite simply a matter of power. Im a catholic myself and im not proud of some of the things my religion did so many years ago but at those times the pope was the leader of a faction. If he thinks his neibouring countries getting too powerful he'll order everyone else (well, the catholics) to attack you.