Ptolemaioi gets cretan archers

[Xehh II]

Why does Ptolemaioi get cretan archers in Alexandria but my beloved KH have to sail to crete? It makes me sad.
And why does Saba now get Pantodapoi Phalangetai?

[Tellos Athenaios]

Would it cheer you up if I informed you that the Seleukeis get Cretan Archers in Antiocheia (as do the Ptolemaioi, AFAIK) and Alexandreia...?

Wouldn't be surprised if you can get your hands on enough Cretan Archers to supply your armies with by simply conquering Krete (close by, compared to Antiocheia/Alexandreia) and/or hire mercs.

In any case, didn't the two cities mentioned have a fairly large Kretan population (due to mercenary service in the armies of the kingdom; as well as any other reason plus Krete being often a not so happy place to live...)

[Horst Nordfink]

In my experience, Cretan archers aren't all that good. Certainly not the uber-killing machines they were in Vanilla.

[Xehh II]

What, Toxotai Kretikoi are way, way, way better than your standard Toxotai, they suck, Kretikoi are better.

[konny]

You can use the Kretikoi as flankers like Peltastai. That allows you to save two unit slots - or field 2 additional units of archers "for free" (in terms of slots).

[stupac]

They do decently in melee, certainly, as far as skirmishers go. But like many other archers, they massacre unarmored enemies. Still, they won't win you many battles, that's what good heavy infantry and calvary are for.

[Daos]

They do decently in melee, certainly, as far as skirmishers go. But like many other archers, they massacre unarmored enemies. Still, they won't win you many battles, that's what good heavy infantry and calvary are for.

hm... Never underestimate the power of archers. Just to give you an example: an army engaged one of my elite horse archer troop that was just joining the main army. There were 48 HA and about 450 enemies. In that battle the HA managed to kill 84 of them before they depleted their arrows. Now if you take the scythian archers that are somewhere around 80 in a group and can shoot for much longer than most archers. They can kill in excess of 100 men if used properly and guarded by reserve troops. My main strategy revolves around archers since Medieval TW. I used crossbows there but it's basically the same. Remember that people armed with mainly bows crushed the roman legions and were surrounding Rome itself. The bow is one of the most formidable weapons in history.

[konny]

They do decently in melee, certainly, as far as skirmishers go. But like many other archers, they massacre unarmored enemies. Still, they won't win you many battles, that's what good heavy infantry and calvary are for.

I had used them to great effect in my KH campaigns in combination with classical Hoplites. They can shredder the enemy flankers and light troops when those advandce and afterwards fall on the flanks of the enemy phalanx what is pinned by the Hoplites meanwhile.

[Mediolanicus]

I use 2 units of them in main army in my KH campaign. Every battle they have caused somewhere around 250 casualties. In comparison: my bodyguard units kill somewhere around 150... I think Cretan archers are better even than Hellenic slingers.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

In the West Cretans are good bang for buck, in the East Persian or Caucasian Archers are better, longer ranges, more men and more ammo.

[Tellos Athenaios]

It is what you want to use them for. Personally, I think the whatistheirname Eranshar are among the very best; only eclipsed by the Subeshi. This from the observation that when the arrows are spent I can send them in melee - and they will likely come out on top. However, hardly will I ever need to do this as not only do they have massive raw fire power; their range is almost unmatched as well.

Yet, for the purpose of melee/ranged support combination the Toxotai Kretikoi and Syriakoi outperform the others - mainly due to their armour. One can send Toxotai Kretikoi against all cavalry up to Hetairoi and expected them to fare relatively well. Which is very useful if you can't afford to maintain large, dedicated cavalry wings.

[Barry Soteiro]

cretan archers + rhodian slingers = dead barbarians

[Maion Maroneios]

cretan archers + rhodian slingers = dead barbarians

lol, like that!

[QuintusSertorius]

I really don't know why people go crazy over archers, they're pretty much useless against any troops with decent armour. Slingers are much better, even if they don't have the same range.

[Maion Maroneios]

Then why did the bow become the dominant missile weapon in later times?

[Tellos Athenaios]

As I posted elsewhere, it's all about the effective deployment of your skirmishers.

Heck, had one unit of Toxotai Kretikoi wipe out half an approaching column at a ford...

[Korlon]

I really don't know why people go crazy over archers, they're pretty much useless against any troops with decent armour. Slingers are much better, even if they don't have the same range.

I absolutely adore slingers, but they're somewhat unwieldy. I like to keep a few slingers in an army, but never more than one or two. Their much looser formation make it much harder to move them around, which is just a source of frustration sometimes. Their horizontal trajectory don't help things either.

[QuintusSertorius]

Then why did the bow become the dominant missile weapon in later times?

There are reasons beyond the mere effectiveness of a weapon that can influence it's popularity.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

The best archer I have personnally seen is the Bospheran Heavy, decent armour and shield, good range, firepower and ammo.

[craziii]

kretans + sirian archers got super armor + defense. that is why they own. having 6 base missile dmg is godly. I mainly use them to kill light cavalry + foot skimisher + other range troops. who would use them vs a phalanx? even shooting from the rear, you will need like 20-25 volleys from 2 units to kill 1 unit of medium phalanx. forget about cataphracts, but they do ok vs heavy cavalry that doesn't have armor horses.

off topic: is it just me or is the most effective way to kill a phalanx is with another phalanx. I usually move a phalanx to the fron then another to the rear, order the rear one to move towards the front one, not attack the unit, as the sarrisa moves towards the backs, it kills at super speed. even the elite phalanx breaks under 10-15 secs with 80% of the unit dead. when I discover this as pontos, AS armies simply melted.

[Tellos Athenaios]

That entirely depends on how you deploy your troops. Nomadic styles work well; but as settled factions it's often preferable to use a combination of good cavalry and something to pin the phalanx. Decent infantry to occupy its flanks is also a must.

Still, phalanxes don't like being outflanked by missile infantry; especially not on their right...

EDIT: That is if you can't, for whatever reason deploy the prime asset of a phalanx (being severly outnumbered, lacking surplus phalanx units etc. etc.) - namely it's ability to rip any formation apart; whilst maintaining its own.

[Hax]

Hmm, I've done this tactic with my KH campaign, in which I start a pushing match with my Hoplitai, circle around with my archers and start shooting the guys in the back. Does wonders.