Another school shooting

[Rodion Romanovich]

http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/02/15/uni...ing/index.html
So, yet another one has happened... Comments, thoughts? Is this becoming a trend, or can we stop it by reversing whatever happened in these last two decades during which this kind of thing has started to become common?

[Vladimir]

You already know the answer: Teh guns R eval.

[Rodion Romanovich]

And the guns suddenly got more evil in the last two decades, than they were before?

[Innocentius]

I'm not very surprised. This seems like everyday news by now.

[Fragony]

Very sad. Here is an eye-witness, chilling stuff. Screw these emo-nazi's.

http://www.dumpert.nl/mediabase/4199...onverslag.html

[drone]

It was St. Valentine's Day. I'm sure many others have contemplated doing the same thing.

[Crazed Rabbit]

I can think of two reasons:

Mass media sensationalism. Every time this happens, it's blasted on the news for days afterward as self proclaimed experts pontificate on the cause. And then every other loser sees it and sees the attention the killer gets. I bet we'll soon have an indepth look at the recent past of the killer.

A society that's changed. One that increasingly finds fault with and blames society, less sacredness of life, and more toleration for suicidal/emo/goth/the world is against me feelings. I can't quite put my finger on it, so this part is really quite rough.

That's not to say these attacks didn't occur 40 years ago, they just happened much less often.

CR

[Rodion Romanovich]

Hm, there's too much news coverage, true. But perhaps also another type of influence from mass media should be blamed - the way mass media encourages all people to build up unrealistic dreams, and the way mass media depicts getting world-wide attention as the goal in life and the greatest thing that can happen to you. Then, people are met with reality and can't take the fact that life for most people is much worse than these unrealistic dreams, and that life has also gotten much tougher in the latest 2 decades, especially for the lower and middle classes. 2 decades ago, people didn't watch nearly as much TV with reality shows etc that glorify world-wide attention and similar. Perhaps it is time TV channels should start taking responsibility and show less of this crap TV? After all, not many would be sad if programs like American Idol and so on would be removed from the tableaus. Notice something else? What was the first thing the woman "eye-witness" in that linked recording did after the event? Phone mass-media, to get attention! No call to the police, as would have been the right thing to do as a citizen (because at that time, she could have no way of knowing for sure he wasn't alive having left the scene and trying to get away), but a call to the news, to get her voice recorded and played out in the news... That just goes to show how attention-seeking people are being taught to be these days.

[Fragony]

A society that's changed. One that increasingly finds fault with and blames society, less sacredness of life, and more toleration for suicidal/emo/goth/the world is against me feelings. I can't quite put my finger on it, so this part is really quite rough.

I think it is because kids just aren't allowed to fend for theirselves today, the moment there is a conflict all sorts of gears are set in motion, talk, finding eachother you get it men raised by women. There is nothing wrong with moderate use of violence, hard to die from a few hits on the head or even a stab with a knife unless someone is very unlucky. Sort of a soft tyranny that leads to excesses such as this.

[Crazed Rabbit]

Oh, yes, that is true. There is certainly a glorification of publicity, no matter where it came from, in today's society, and that is a large factor I would think.

CR

[LittleGrizzly]

That's not to say these attacks didn't occur 40 years ago, they just happened much less often.

I thought that "i hate mondays" girl was the one who started the school shooting craze ? (documentary on BBC said so :P)

i don't think this can be blamed on emo or goth way of living as the people who are a bit messed up to start with are attracted to emo/goth style.

[Lemur]

Some random thoughts:

There is nobody on Earth as dangerous as a person who is convinced he is a victim. Once he's made that leap, decided that the world is unfair and against him, nothing is taboo, nothing is too much, no action is unjustified. Admittedly, feeling victimized is an essential part of the teenage years, but there's a major difference between occasionally feeling put-upon and making victimhood central to your identity.

I think a majority of the school shooters fall into this category; not all, mind you -- some are true psychopaths, such as Klebold and Harris. But sociopaths are rare, whereas people who think they've got the biggest sob story of all time are common as dirt.

So take your extreme example of early adult victim mentality (please!), and look at what feeds into his head. America has a peculiarity that I've noticed many times -- because we are a land of opportunity, and because anybody has the potential to be as successful as they like, there's a particular pressure on all of us. If anybody can be as rich as Bill Gates, why aren't you? If anybody can be President, why aren't you? Why are you failing in class, why aren't you popular, why isn't your family wealthier, why aren't you higher on the totem pole?

The vast majority of Americans make peace with this concept, either through logic, rationalization, acceptance, or what-have-you, but a tiny minority cannot. They cannot accept that their inherent limitations, not to mention luck, prevent them from rising any higher right now.

Last thought: As firearm fans point out, guns are the great equalizer. A 110-pound woman can hold her own with a 250-pound ex-con if she has a gun. A granny can chase off a thug if she has a gun. Guns level the playing field in a direct and final manner.

So add it up -- take the tiny percentage of teens/young adults who completely go over to the Dark Side of victimhood. Add in the unbearable (for them) pressure of a meritocracy. Finish the stew with a simple, deadly equalizing tool, and hey presto! You've got a good formula for school shootings.

I think this goes some small way toward explaining why school shootings are a predominantly American trend.

[Rodion Romanovich]

Hm, I think you make a few fallacies. One of them, being "meritocracy". No country in history, except the administration of Genghis Khan's hordes, has ever implemented meritocracy.

No, the problem is too high expectations combined with too low capabilities of fulfilling them. It's the relative distance between the two, not their absolute values, that matter. Raise expectations, and you must raise the level of reality to or you will increase the violence. Lower the life quality of reality, and you must lower expectations too, if you are to avoid an increase in violence.

All these views "it's 100% society's fault" and "it's 100% individuals feeling like victims" are one-sided, and dangerous, as they fail to attack the problem from both sides. If you choose the latter option, you need to silence the entire debate on improving real-life living conditions. If you choose the former option, you will encourage victimization feelings in the people that lie in the danger zone. Both risk increasing the gap between expectations fed by mass media, and what reality has to offer.

[Fragony]

I think this goes some small way toward explaining why school shootings are a predominantly American trend.

This the the third(?), there have been one in germany and also in finland just recently. There is more to it, I think I got it nailed.

[Mikeus Caesar]

As someone who's been where these shooters have been (at one point me and a good friend were only weeks away from acting out on our desire when something major came up that changed our minds) i can sympathise with them. The world is a harsh cruel place when you feel that everyone is a dick and no one cares.

in b4 party van takes me away

[Fragony]

As someone who's been where these shooters have been (at one point me and a good friend were only weeks away from acting out on our desire when something major came up that changed our minds) i can sympathise with them. The world is a harsh cruel place when you feel that everyone is a dick and no one cares.

Well I have no sympathy at all, if you can't handle it just open your wrists and bleed or look for a high building and see if newton was right, and make sure not to drop onto someone of make a mess on the floor. Zero sympathy for these people, your problem is just that, your problem.

Edit: 5 dead, they must have felt that the comfortable bliss that was their being here on this clay was worth the lives of 5 other people, and just because things didn't go as they wanted, 5 people. How incredibbly self centered can you be?

[Rodion Romanovich]

Well I have no sympathy at all

I think we got that part by now

How incredibbly self centered can you be?

[Fragony]

You shouldn't be able to read this, ah well. Don't you think that when you are a bit dissapointed in life and want to end it it's rather selfish to drag 5 down with you without at least asking? You must feel rather important if you feel you have the right to unwillingly let them aid your rightious cause.

[Rodion Romanovich]

I think it's pointless to discuss morality, because morality is a vague concept. If you look at individual actions and what goals a society should have, it's obvious that it should be the goal of society to avoid this action, i.e. that this action is morally despicable, and that you should form your policies around a strategy of making sure to avoid this and other actions which belong to this group of despicable actions. But if you use the morality point of view of looking at a chain of causes and effects, there's another moral judgement which no human being is fit to make because they can never know the entire chain and can only speculate. Then there's the moral implication of just saying "the man is evil period", and denying that there's a chance that part of the cause in the cause and effect chain could have been easily removed, or even worse: advocating an increase in such causes. In short, it's rather pointless to discuss morality when something like this happens.

[Lemur]

Fragony, I think you're shadowboxing with yourself. Nobody is arguing that this shooting is anything but monstrous. What a few of us are trying to mull over is why they keep happening. You've expressed your disgust with the shooter multiple times; good, we get the point. Shooting people for no reason bad. We get it. We agree with it. All of us were there before you started hammering on it.

Let's just mosey to the two obvious questions:

• Why do these shootings keep occurring?
• Can/should anything be done to lower the frequency of these atrocities?

-edit-

In short, it's rather pointless to discuss morality when something like this happens.

Why, because the act is so self-evidently immoral? I can see that. If we want to get a handle on the problem, we need to look at causes, symptoms, ways to spot someone who's on the edge of going postal. I certainly think the anti-gun hysteria in schools isn't helping at all. You read about kids being suspended for drawing a gun or pointing their finger and going "bang"; I don't see how that helps anything.

[Fragony]

Already said why I think they are happening;

I think it is because kids just aren't allowed to fend for theirselves today, the moment there is a conflict all sorts of gears are set in motion, talk, finding eachother you get it men raised by women. There is nothing wrong with moderate use of violence, hard to die from a few hits on the head or even a stab with a knife unless someone is very unlucky. Sort of a soft tyranny that leads to excesses such as this.

edit, nothing

[Innocentius]

I can think of two reasons:

Mass media sensationalism. Every time this happens, it's blasted on the news for days afterward as self proclaimed experts pontificate on the cause. And then every other loser sees it and sees the attention the killer gets. I bet we'll soon have an indepth look at the recent past of the killer.

A society that's changed. One that increasingly finds fault with and blames society, less sacredness of life, and more toleration for suicidal/emo/goth/the world is against me feelings. I can't quite put my finger on it, so this part is really quite rough.

That's not to say these attacks didn't occur 40 years ago, they just happened much less often.

CR

That's basically saying that everything's the perpetrators fault, and that he/she seeks reasons to act out in an attention-seeking manner (attention they'll never experience since they'll be dead anyway). Bur aren't the perpetrators products of their time and society? What exactly do you mean by "finds fault with and blames society"? Is society all good and people who can't handle it bad guys?

I think it is because kids just aren't allowed to fend for theirselves today, the moment there is a conflict all sorts of gears are set in motion, talk, finding eachother you get it men raised by women. There is nothing wrong with moderate use of violence, hard to die from a few hits on the head or even a stab with a knife unless someone is very unlucky. Sort of a soft tyranny that leads to excesses such as this.

Interesting theory... can't say that it's very insightful though. Ah, heck, I'm not even touching that one, there's just too much behind it to explain what's wrong with that statement (study of gender etc).

Well I have no sympathy at all, if you can't handle it just open your wrists and bleed or look for a high building and see if newton was right, and make sure not to drop onto someone of make a mess on the floor. Zero sympathy for these people, your problem is just that, your problem.

And you don't think that way of thinking would make theses "emos" (as CR so fittingly named them) get even more pissed off with life? Yeah, your lack of sympathy will probably repay itself with more dead people - good thinking.

* Why do these shootings keep occurring?
* Can/should anything be done to lower the frequency of these atrocities?

1. Because society is society, systems are systems. Societies and systems create outcasts/extremists/rebels/opposers to the norms and so on. And in the cases where the shooters are mentally ill: because there will always be mentally ill people. We don't know if some guy named Aethelsten went postal with an axe in York in 846. Maybe he did, such events weren't written down to be remembered. It's difficult to tell if these school-shootings (or just random killing sprees) are a psychological product of modern society or not.

2. Yes and no.

Why, because the act is so self-evidently immoral? I can see that. If we want to get a handle on the problem, we need to look at causes, symptoms, ways to spot someone who's on the edge of going postal. I certainly think the anti-gun hysteria in schools isn't helping at all. You read about kids being suspended for drawing a gun or pointing their finger and going "bang"; I don't see how that helps anything.

According to you it is immoral, yes. Not to me. So morality is a very vague concept, according to me it exists only in one's mind, which renders it useless and even futile.

[Rodion Romanovich]

Why, because the act is so self-evidently immoral? I can see that. If we want to get a handle on the problem, we need to look at causes, symptoms, ways to spot someone who's on the edge of going postal. I certainly think the anti-gun hysteria in schools isn't helping at all. You read about kids being suspended for drawing a gun or pointing their finger and going "bang"; I don't see how that helps anything.

Answer to the why is IMO "yes", and to the rest, "I agree".

[Husar]

Another ugly thread.

I think I stated my opinion on this before and don't plan to repeat it.

Well, to make it short, sometimes it's actually a nutter and sometimes it's a beta-(fe)male who is pretty angry at all the alpha-(fe)males around her/him for sometimes valid reasons. It's nature's way to show alpha-(fe)males they're vulnerable as well.

[ajaxfetish]

That's basically saying that everything's the perpetrators fault, and that he/she seeks reasons to act out in an attention-seeking manner (attention they'll never experience since they'll be dead anyway). Bur aren't the perpetrators products of their time and society?

People are influenced by the society in which they live, but I don't buy the line that they're nothing more than products of society, automatons at the mercy of outside forces. Ultimately, yes, it's the perpetrator's fault. Saying something along the lines of 'society made him do it' is basically blaming the victim.

Ajax

[Xiahou]

Ok, this guy was mental right? The story says he stopped taking his meds and had been behaving "erratically". So how on earth did he get guns? The article makes it sound like he legally purchased them- diagnosed mental patients should not be buying guns. This looks to be the second time in recent memory that such a thing has happened with tragic results.

[TevashSzat]

Ah, but according to various advocates for people with mental health issues, they should be allowed to buy as many guns as they want because of the right to bear arms.

[woad&fangs]

Ah, but according to various advocates for people with mental health issues, they should be allowed to buy as many guns as they want because of the right to bear arms.

These people deserve to burn in the deepest circle of hell

etc, etc, etc,....

There was a long and colorful rant but I decided to save the mods some work.

[Lemur]

Ok, this guy was mental right? The story says he stopped taking his meds and had been behaving "erratically". So how on earth did he get guns?

Last I checked, the states that restrict gun purchases based on mental health all do so based on court-ordered treatment. So unless a person has been in contact with the legal system, there's no bar to buying a gun. People who go on anti-depressants or lithium or what-have-you are not barred anywhere from owning guns. So the dude behaved "erratically"? What does that mean, exactly? And so he went off his meds? Were the meds ordered by a court? If not, there's no issue.

The Virginia Tech shooter was a completely different matter. The kid had been sent into treatment from court; he should never have been allowed to purchase a firearm. That was a clear lapse of enforcement.

[Xiahou]

Last I checked, the states that restrict gun purchases based on mental health all do so based on court-ordered treatment. So unless a person has been in contact with the legal system, there's no bar to buying a gun. People who go on anti-depressants or lithium or what-have-you are not barred anywhere from owning guns. So the dude behaved "erratically"? What does that mean, exactly? And so he went off his meds? Were the meds ordered by a court? If not, there's no issue.

The Virginia Tech shooter was a completely different matter. The kid had been sent into treatment from court; he should never have been allowed to purchase a firearm. That was a clear lapse of enforcement.

Good points. We've not heard if this shooter's condition ever landed him in the courts.