Quote Originally Posted by Lemur
You realize that by your criteria, we also lost World War II? No, HoreTore, I fear you're indulging in hyperbole. A quagmire does not equal defeat. And failing to distinguish between the justified and necessary war in Afghanistan and the absolute waste of time and blood in Iraq weakens your argument.
No, you(as in the US) haven't lost the war yet. Bush, however, has. When you start a war you expect to take a couple of months, and then can't finish it after 5 years(the length of WW2), I'd say that should count as a defeat for the guy in power.

As for Afghanistan, I'd say it's not won yet because of the Iraq war. If the resources for the Iraq war were to be spent in Afghanistan, I think it would've been successful by now. So it counts as a personal defeat for Mr. Bush too. The US itself, however, can still win the war.

Also, I didn't distinguish between the two wars because I didn't comment on whether or not they were just wars.