Impeachment Vote on Prince Louis

[OverKnight]

King Phillip has summoned an Emergency Session and called for a vote to impeach Prince Louis and remove him from the Chancellorship.

An aye vote would support impeachment, a nay vote would oppose it.

Relevant Charter sections:

Impeachment:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

*3.8 – Impeachment: The CHANCELLOR can be impeached and removed from office by a two-thirds majority vote of the GOVERNING BODY. Impeachment takes effect immediately after the vote is passed. After impeachment, a fresh election is held to elect a new CHANCELLOR, although the FACTION LEADER may also exercise his power to become CHANCELLOR at that point. The nobleman replacing the impeached CHANCELLOR serves out the remainder of the impeached CHANCELLOR’S term. All Edicts passed in the GOVERNING BODY session that elected the impeached CHANCELLOR remain valid, unless overturned by new Edicts at the Emergency Session that impeached him.

Determining Influence:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

3.5 – Influence: Each nobleman’s voting power is equivalent to his total Influence, as defined by Rule 2.7. No nobleman’s Influence may ever be lower than 1. For the purposes of determining Stat Influence, a nobleman can gain 1 point of Stat Influence for each of the following conditions that he meets: (a) 5+ ranks of Command (b) 10 ranks of Command (c) 5+ ranks of Chivalry or Dread (d) 10 ranks of Chivalry or Dread (e) 10 ranks of Loyalty (f) 8+ ranks of Piety (g) 20+ total stat points (h) 30+ total stat points (i) 40 total stat points (j) nobleman’s name is modified by a trait title that bestows more negative than positive stat points (i.e. the Mad) (k) nobleman is married to a FACTION Princess.

Influence Caps by existing ranks:
This is based off the rules that existed when Baronets were still a rank

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Baronet: 1
Baron: 2
Viscount: 2
Count: 3
Marquess: 3
Faction Heir: cap raised by 1 on existing rank
Chancellor: up to 5 Stat Influence +2, or the nobleman's normal Influence, whichever is higher
Faction Leader: Influence equals authority stat

Edit: I calculated the influence of each player. Most of the avatars would not even have any influence except for the mandated minimum of one point. King Philip has 8 influence (his authority). Prince Louis, even with the +2 Chancellor's bonus, only has 3. Other than Jacques de Toulouse with 2 influence, all the other avatars left have 1.

These are my calculations, so TC's will be the binding one. I was a bit confused on some of the phrasing and could have made errors. Giving a point for 5+ chivalry or dread, does that mean 5 and above, or 6 and up?

[TinCow]

As this vote results from an Emergency Diet Session, it will remain open for 48 hours (until 9:45am EST on Friday, May 9th), or until all players have voted, whichever comes first. I will determine the proper weighted votes for each player.

[OverKnight]

Oops, I set the timer for 24 hours, is there a way that can be changed?

[Privateerkev]

I don't think 24 is too big of a problem. We have been having 24 hour saves so people should be used to that time frame.

[TinCow]

Oops, I set the timer for 24 hours, is there a way that can be changed?

Not by me. Those powers are restricted to full Mods.

Anyone who hasn't voted at the time the poll auto-closes can simply post in here and I will count it. For future votes, it's best not to put a timer on. I can always lock polls when their time is up, which is a far better system since I can also unlock them at will.

[AussieGiant]

Not by me. Those powers are restricted to full Mods.

Anyone who hasn't voted at the time the poll auto-closes can simply post in here and I will count it. For future votes, it's best not to put a timer on. I can always lock polls when their time is up, which is a far better system since I can also unlock them at will.

You need more 'POWER' TC...how do we get this done?

[Privateerkev]

You need more 'POWER' TC...how do we get this done?

The usual way. Threats, blackmail, and bribes.

[Cecil XIX]

I calculated the influence of each player. Most of the avatars would not even have any influence except for the mandated minimum of one point. King Philip has 8 influence (his authority). Prince Louis, even with the +2 Chancellor's bonus, only has 3. Other than Jacques de Toulouse with 2 influence, all the other avatars left have 1.

Hmm, you read the rules differently than I did. I gave everyone one influence, and then used stat influence to determine the rest. Thus, someone with five command or chivalry/dread a noble would get a maximum of two votes, rather that one. I can't remember the specifics, but I calculated that the total number of votes for everyone was twenty-nine. I must have messed up the chancellor's influence though, as I had no idea what 'Five Stat Influence +2' meant, nor did I factor in that this was an emergency session.

[Privateerkev]

Hmm, you read the rules differently than I did. I gave everyone one influence, and then used stat influence to determine the rest. Thus, someone with five command or chivalry/dread a noble would get a maximum of two votes, rather that one. I can't remember the specifics, but I calculated that the total number of votes for everyone was twenty-nine. I must have messed up the chancellor's influence though, as I had no idea what 'Five Stat Influence +2' meant, nor did I factor in that this was an emergency session.

The way TC explained it in the OOC thread is this:

Add up the stat influences while keeping in mind the rank cap. No matter what, everyone has one no matter what their stats are.

My total was 26 based on OK's numbers. I'll check them later when I get home and can access the save.

Out of 16 players we have:
8- King
3- Prince
2- Jaques
13- Everyone else has 1

26

[TinCow]

OK's interepretation is the correct one. This is not KOTR, where everyone got a free vote on top of whatever their stats warranted. In these rules, your influence is based only on stats, with a few very explicit exceptions. The minimum of 1 influence is to make sure that people with no stat influence at all still have a say in the voting. So, people with 0 stat influence have a voting power of 1. People with 1 stat influence also have a voting power of 1. People with 2 stat influence have a voting power of 2, assuming they have a rank that lets them use it. Etc.

These are my calculations, so TC's will be the binding one. I was a bit confused on some of the phrasing and could have made errors. Giving a point for 5+ chivalry or dread, does that mean 5 and above, or 6 and up?

"5+" means 5 points and above. Players get a +1 for every 5 levels they earn in Chivalry, Dread, Command, Loyalty, and Piety above the default level. Default is 0 for Chivalry, Dread, and Command, so the bonuses are at 5 and 10 for those stats. Default is 5 for Loyalty, so the bonus is at 10 for that stat. Default is 3 for Piety, so the bonus is at 8 for that stat.

[Cecil XIX]

The way TC explained it in the OOC thread is this:

Add up the stat influences while keeping in mind the rank cap. No matter what, everyone has one no matter what their stats are.

My total was 26 based on OK's numbers. I'll check them later when I get home and can access the save.

Out of 16 players we have:
8- King
3- Prince
2- Jaques
13- Everyone else has 1

26

So meeting just one of the requirements for stat influence does absolutely nothing?

[TinCow]

So meeting just one of the requirements for stat influence does absolutely nothing?

Yes, because all influence is based on stats to encourage roleplaying. You need to develop a good character as well as a good rank in order to increase your personal voting power. KOTR was inundated with 'free' influence that was not earned or reflected by a character's traits. This resulted in wacky scenarios where Crusader Counts were more powerful than Dukes and whatnot.

In the next game, Influence will be much harder to achieve. With the exception of the Chancellor, it is all based on your traits and in-game 'achievements' (such as marrying a Princess). There are no more free handouts. On top of this, you actually have to gain rank to make use of your stats. No matter how good the stats are of a Knight, he is not going to wield more influence than a Grand Duke.

The aim is also to increase political cooperation. High ranks may have more voting power than lower ones, but they will not have enough to pass legislation on their own. Houses will need to make sure that their members all vote together in order for them to get legislation passed. Houses which have members voting separately from one another won't be very effective. The only people who will ever have massive voting influence will be a high-authority Faction Leader, and a high-ranking ex-Chancellor.

[Cecil XIX]

I like the overall philosophy behind the new influence system. I agree with everything Tincow just said. That is why this surprises me so much, for it is inconsistent. There is indeed a free handout in the form of guaranteeing each noble at least one vote, as there should be. And where nobles with zero stat influence and one stat influence have equal voting power; for them influence is not stat-based at all but rather egalitarian.

[TinCow]

The only alternatives I see are removing the minimum vote of 1 or giving everyone a freebie vote like in KOTR. The former is unacceptable because it would prevent some people from voting at all. The latter would be acceptable, but only if I also reduced the stat influence cap of each rank by 1 to compensate. That would result in:

Knight:
Influence: 1

Baron:
Influence: 1

Viscount:
Influence: 1 + up to 1 Stat Influence.

Count:
Influence: 1 + up to 1 Stat Influence.

Marquess:
Influence: 1 + up to 2 Stat Influence.

Duke:
Influence: 1 + up to 3 Stat Influence.

Grand Duke:
Influence: 1 + up to 4 Stat Influence.

No changes to FH, FL, & Chancellor.

In reality, the above is exactly the same as what we're doing now, just worded differently. If this somehow makes people more comfortable, I'll do it since it doesn't actually change anything in the game.

[AussieGiant]

I certainly agree with TC's explanation and we should impliment it.

Cecil, while your point is valid as an extentions of TC's theory, we should disregard it because making sure everyone is included at the base level is very important.

We have a minumum "CAP" (it is a 'free' hand out to make sure everyone is in the voting franchise), and a fixed maximum "CAP" based on roleplaying and merit through rank acheivement.

In my view that's about as good as it gets for this system.

[Ramses II CP]

I have pm'd Tristan (And everyone else) about their votes, so they should be forthcoming.

[Zim]

Tristan did have to duck out of his hotseats up through the weekend. I don't know if this means he won't have internet access, or just can't play MTW2.

[Privateerkev]

If Tristan doesn't vote, it really doesn't change much.

To impeach the Chancellor, we need 2/3 of the votes that voted, not that are possible.

Instead of being 2/3 of 26, it will be 2/3 of 25.

[Zim]

In that case I guess it's already over. The yeas already have 17 influence, or 68% of 25.

[Privateerkev]

True, unless Tristan comes back and takes up Guillemot on his offer... We still have a few hours.

[PrinceofTroy]

Marcel de Brabant votes no to impeachment.

[Privateerkev]

Ah, now it is up to the absent man to decide this thing.

If Tristan does not show up, or he does and votes yes, then Louis is impeached.

If Tristan shows up and votes abstain or no, then Louis is not impeached.

Just 18 hours to go...

o_O

[The Lemongate]

Hum, well I'm betting here he'd vote "yes" if he showed up. But he probably won't. I think he's on a short leave from the .org.

[Privateerkev]

Hum, well I'm betting here he'd vote "yes" if he showed up. But he probably won't. I think he's on a short leave from the .org.

You never know how people are going to vote sometimes. I've been surprised myself at some votes in the past. You learn to never take votes for granted.

[TinCow]

I am going to declare the Test Game over, so we won't worry about the result.