KotR - Unanswered Questions

[Cecil XIX]

Did anyone think Arnold wasn't evil? That goes for all the guys inside the Order too. Was he regarded as the arch typical "bad guy" or something a little more than that?

After the Hummel incident, Sigismund definitely didn't think Arnold was evil. Edmund always respected him as one of the Reich's most reasonable and wise rulers, and was very dissapointed to learn he was the Grand Master of the Illuminati.

Incidentally, did Sigismund really come off as groveling when he apologized to Arnold? He was actually pretty happy when he wrote that.

[TinCow]

I'd like to know what was really behind the decision to send mini-Econ after Palermo. There has to be more than just trying to claim an Imperial training facility. I always thought Kaiser Elberhard must be planning some sort of long term con against Bavaria by carving some sort of Imperial enclave between Palermo and Rome, but I couldn't find any IC justification.

IIRC, econ21 told me that it Mini Econ's decision. He wanted to assault a citadel, so he told econ21 to submit those orders. I promised not to been up Palermo's garrison so much that it became suicide, since the boats were going to leave him behind, meaning defeat results in death.

[AussieGiant]

After the Hummel incident, Sigismund definitely didn't think Arnold was evil. Edmund always respected him as one of the Reich's most reasonable and wise rulers, and was very dissapointed to learn he was the Grand Master of the Illuminati.

Incidentally, did Sigismund really come off as groveling when he apologized to Arnold? He was actually pretty happy when he wrote that.

That's good to hear Cecil...both from Sigismund and Edmund's point of view.

I can't remember what that apology was exactly about? Can you provide more details?

[GeneralHankerchief]

I remember there was a Swabian secret forum in the start of the game... anyone still have the link?

[Warluster]

I still do: Swabian House Forum

You need a password to get into the main forum though. :P

I can't believe I missed out at the end of KOTR... Never changed House once since the start of the game.

[Ignoramus]

I'm the Admin so I'll remove the password.

Password removed. Wow! 6 members online over there.

[Privateerkev]

This is for the Illuminati people.

I couldn't find this tidbit in the "Tales of the Illuminati".

How did Matthias arranging for the Byzantines to take a Turkish territory factor into the overall plan? It seemed like the Order was doing this as a sign of good faith so Siegfried would consider their "suggestions" at the 1300 Diet.

I remember Jan stumbling on to that little plan and Arnold gave Jan a pre-emptive "talking to" in order to save Matthias's army command. Didn't work though...

Anyways, does anyone have any info on the Byzantines getting an "assist"? Was it something Siegfried requested? Or did the Order just think it up as a good way to get on his good side?

[OverKnight]

It wasn't a huge piece of the puzzle. The goal was to give Lothar a favor he could present Siegfried, but as Chancellor my motivation was to reduce the "active" borders of Outremer.

At that time the Greeks were our allies and the Turks were our main concern, at least to the north and east. I had engaged the Turks in the north to try to goad the Greeks into striking at Caesarea, but it turned out that they needed to be spoon fed. When I saw a small Turk force outside the walls opposite a Greek force, I saw an oppurtunity and attacked, drawing both the Greeks and the Caesarea garrison into a battle. With the victory, a fun battle by the way, the garrison was gutted and the Greeks eventually took the Citadel. I guess they needed a clear path to it and superiority in numbers for the AI to siege the Citadel.

With the Greeks taking Caesarea and an existing fort in the pass northeast of Adana, the northern border of Outremer was secure, and resources could be shifted to the east. I didn't trust the Greeks completely however, due to difficult pathfinding in the mountain passes Greek units often ended up around Adana. I didn't want those units to disrupt our own movement or be around if the Greeks backstabbed us, so I built a series of forts northwest of Adana to keep them off our land. As soon as my term ended, however, they were disassembled in the lead up to the Cataclysm.

In hindsight, all this is a tad ironic, but it made sense at the time.

On the plus side, this reinforced in my mind the importance of Adana as a key to the defense of Outremer, particularly Antioch. Taking it back, in contrast to Damascus or Edessa, became a priority in the reconquest.

[Privateerkev]

Where was the Ducal Council for the 11th Diet Succession Dispute held? Is there a link? What was discussed? What deals were made?

[AussieGiant]

Where was the Ducal Council for the 11th Diet Succession Dispute held? Is there a link? What was discussed? What deals were made?

It was all done via PM and I didn't keep them sorry.

I'll post up the 45 second abridged version from memory if anyone would like.

[Privateerkev]

It was all done via PM and I didn't keep them sorry.

I'll post up the 45 second abridged version from memory if anyone would like.

That would be great. I've always wondered what was discussed.

[GeneralHankerchief]

It was done via PM and Quicktopic (I don't have the link), and was pretty honest and straightforward actually. Most of us casted our votes before Hans did his evidence, citing inevitability and the need for unity.

[AussieGiant]

It was done via PM and Quicktopic (I don't have the link), and was pretty honest and straightforward actually. Most of us casted our votes before Hans did his evidence, citing inevitability and the need for unity.

GH is correct, that's about the way it went.

Unity was the main thing Arnold brought up. It was a very short and very honest discussion actually. A little strange now that I think of all the other stuff going on back then.

The bottom line was that we couldn't get a unanimous result so it was quickly realised that it was just wasting time and had to go to a Reich wide vote.

[Ituralde]

Coming back once more to see KotR over. Actually I'm quite pleased. I didn't have the time an energy to get back into the game, because so much had happened. It would have just amounted to too much reading so I didn't feel like doing it.

But this is an interesting thread and I will definetly read the Illumintai Chronicles right away. I'm not sure, but I don't think Siegfrieds call for an unanimous voting on one of his Edicts was ever fulfilled? Didn't follow the votes too closely in the end, but it was a pretty controversial topic if I remember correctly.

To Leopold's change of mind I have to agree with GH. I just realized that the only way to get land eventually for Austria would be to get on the good side of the Emperor, so that's what I did. A bit of Realpolitik there from Leopold.
It was pretty hard I have to admit to play Leopold, as someone pushing Ducal power at a time of a strong Kaiser and then later playing Siegfried as someone pushing for a powerful Kaiser against very strong Dukes by that time. Seems I always picked the wrong side.

Siegfrieds ascension was just a lucky coincidence, helped along by the screwed up inheritance system of the game. Knowing that I wasn't going to play Siegfried's full term, I started planning for his end right from the beginning though. I always wanted his ascension to be as murky IC as possible. Nearly ended up being too murky, but I'm glad it worked out!

[AussieGiant]

Good to see you around Ituralde.

Your two characters where very central to everything that dominated Arnold's life in the game.

I find it a little ironic that Leopold was a major shaping force for Arnold, who then on his own was the one to give final permission, IC, to have Siegfried killed.

It feels like one strange OOC and IC loop.

[Privateerkev]

Now that Ituralde is back, I can finally ask the question I have wanted to ask for months.

Why did Siegfried first pick Jan to be King? Everyone, including Jan, assumed it would be Karl. But Siegfried picked Jan not once, but twice. I used to think it had something to do with the Order but according to the Illuminati thread, it seems they had not contacted Siegfried yet until he had already picked Jan the first time.

[Ituralde]

Well it definitely wasn't part of some grand scheme, but let me give you some insight into Siegfried's motives.

First the decision annoyed the Diet and second proved to them that Siegfried didn indeed have some power. Also I always envisioned Siegfried to be somewhat naive and thus wanted him to make a little blunder on purpose. The main reason for Siegfried to pick Jan was probably at first glance both characters emphasis on Chivalry, during a time when Dread was on the rise.
That's basically it, I guess, and in the end it netted him a valuable ally.


I must say AussieGiant that it was really interesting to have you both as an ally first and an opponent later, same is true for Overknight too, I guess. Not that I enjoyed the involvement with everyone in the game, but those were the two parties where I switched from ally to foe.

And of course AussieGiant will always have a special place in my heart for staying true to the avatarless House of Austria. Those were the time, hm?

[Privateerkev]

Jan... weapon of annoyance.

I like it!

Thanks, I always wanted to know that. One day I log on and find Jan is King. I was still a relatively new player at the time and all of a sudden I was thrust up into the higher politics of the game. Took me a little while to gain my footing. :D

[Ituralde]

I know what you mean. My ascent to Duke was very surprising too back then.
But I gotta say though, once you've tasted that power it's hard to go back!

[AussieGiant]

Interesting gentlemen, my only issue with that rational Ituralde ,was that Karl Zirn's Chivalry rating was 'off' the chart back then as well.

It was certainly a surprising decision in the Order that Karl was overlooked. As one of our Chivalry characters we where expecting him to gain a lot of ground as the antithesis of Arnold.

And yes Ituralde, You and Leopold will always have a special spot in my heart as the first character I had anything to do with as the “Merchant of Venice” elector I created while waiting for Arnold…

when he was first born and I saw the name I groaned and thought…”damn what a crap name. He wont be much fun to play”.

Oh how wrong I was

[Privateerkev]

Interesting gentlemen, my only issue with that rational Ituralde ,was that Karl Zirn's Chivalry rating was 'off' the chart back then as well.

It was certainly a surprising decision in the Order that Karl was overlooked. As one of our Chivalry characters we where expecting him to gain a lot of ground as the antithesis of Arnold.

Your overlooking the other reason he gave. To annoy the Diet. Can you conceive of anything less annoying than Karl? The man was the pillar of non-annoyance.

As to your second point, here is one mistake the Order made with Karl. When it came time to vote, Karl voted with Order characters. That is what made Jan suspicious. I spent countless hours pouring over the voting threads looking for connections. Whenever Arnold needed a vote to go a certain way, Karl was always there. While I did not guess he was in the Order, it made Jan not trust Karl one bit.

To Jan, it wasn't enough to have chivalry traits, you also had to vote chivalrous. Which is why he trusted Sigismund so much. Jan saw Karl as a total phony.

If you guys would have had Karl vote different on a couple of things, Jan and Elberhard would have approached him earlier to join them as anti-Illuminati.

Fritz on the other hand had a voting record that made me overlook him. I thought Fritz was an on/off ally of the Order but I never guessed he was in it.

Just something to keep in mind the next time people form secret societies.

[AussieGiant]

Your overlooking the other reason he gave. To annoy the Diet. Can you conceive of anything less annoying than Karl? The man was the pillar of non-annoyance.

As to your second point, here is one mistake the Order made with Karl. When it came time to vote, Karl voted with Order characters. That is what made Jan suspicious. I spent countless hours pouring over the voting threads looking for connections. Whenever Arnold needed a vote to go a certain way, Karl was always there. While I did not guess he was in the Order, it made Jan not trust Karl one bit.

To Jan, it wasn't enough to have chivalry traits, you also had to vote chivalrous. Which is why he trusted Sigismund so much. Jan saw Karl as a total phony.

If you guys would have had Karl vote different on a couple of things, Jan and Elberhard would have approached him earlier to join them as anti-Illuminati.

Fritz on the other hand had a voting record that made me overlook him. I thought Fritz was an on/off ally of the Order but I never guessed he was in it.

Just something to keep in mind the next time people form secret societies.

Good points. Karl was not very annoying, and NN will confirm that I'm sure

The voting was hard to interpret. We where very aware of voting trends as you have read. Our rational in Karl's voting behaviour was always the link that he was a loyal noble to Arnold as Duke...with the idea being that we would present it as him being a loyal noble to Arnold and not Illuminati. It was a balancing act which was impossible to tell from our point of view. We were not able to determine how other's perceived Karl very easily.

Now that I've seen your suspicions I wished we'd had him vote a few more times to ally those concerns you had.

Ah well...it was so abstract that I can't really beat "us" up too much about. Considering his results in the Battle of Trent I'll take that 'end" result everytime as the GM of the Order.

[Northnovas]

I think there was way too much analysis on the voting. I was never told how to vote by the House or the Order and the one vote that caught PK's suspicion had nothing to do with the Order or the House. It was a non issue and I just voted the way I did with really no thought or consequence.

I did vote by the loyalty of my House. The only strategy on voting for the Illuminate was not all trying to bandwagon on a contentious issue.

It was only after my voting was brought to my attention I gave it some consideration for future voting that someone one was paying attention.

[Privateerkev]

I think there was way too much analysis on the voting. I was never told how to vote by the House or the Order and the one vote that caught PK's suspicion had nothing to do with the Order or the House. It was a non issue and I just voted the way I did with really no thought or consequence.

I did vote by the loyalty of my House. The only strategy on voting for the Illuminate was not all trying to bandwagon on a contentious issue.

It was only after my voting was brought to my attention I gave it some consideration for future voting that someone one was paying attention.

It was Karl's vote on the mercy CA that caught Jan's attention. The CA was not going to pass so it would have been smart to let Karl vote for it. It was his no vote, and his later explanation that Arnold told him to vote no, that raised Jan's suspicion.

Jan wanted people to "walk the walk", not just "talk the talk". The situation ended up with Jan holding Karl in such contempt, that they were never going to be close. Jan at least respected that Arnold and Lothar never tried to pretend to be anything other than who they were.

But hind-sight is always 20/20 as they say. :D

[Northnovas]

Yes the mercy rule. I think I was one of the first characters releasing prisoners and for the early game it kept AI armies around. I was trying to purposely build a character with chivalry rather then dread.
I was planning to always use the mercy rule I think seeing it legislated was the bug personally so in that sense there was no pretending.

[Privateerkev]

Yes the mercy rule. I think I was one of the first characters releasing prisoners and for the early game it kept AI armies around. I was trying to purposely build a character with chivalry rather then dread.
I was planning to always use the mercy rule I think seeing it legislated was the bug personally so in that sense there was no pretending.

Yeah I was just saying how Jan percieved things. Jan never forgot that Karl voted to allow murder.

Personally, I liked Karl. I liked him even more after I read the Illuminati thread. He turned out to be a very deep and complex character in my opinion. Which are way more fun to read about.

[OverKnight]

Having thought about it, I'm glad that KotR ended when it did, at least from the perspective of Outremer. The Timurids were coming, and when Andreas kicked it, very frustrating, Matthias was once again the only avatar in the region.

This would have have negatively effected our usual tactics for hordes: Isolating single stacks and attacking with mutliple ones of our own. On top of that Matthias was in his mid to late fifties, so death, one way or another, was coming. Which would then leave Outremer with no avatars. Even if I, or Zim, had reincarnated with RGBs in the area, fighting hordes, and everyone else if spawned triple golds had continued, with avatars with minimal attributes would have been grim. Not to mention that I was hankering to fight in Europe again after so many years in the desert.

I was always surprised that Outremer remained viable as long as it did. I expected a credible "Germany First" camp to develop and strip the area of resources and troops. It's a testament to Henry's and econ21's vision that it never did happen. Of course it's always nice to have a place to send the dispossesed of the Duchies and have convenient access to Jerusalem for Pope vetoing.

[TinCow]

Well, it partly survived because the Illuminati took over. We initially opposed it because it was a tool for getting one of us elected to Chancellor and because the position of King was held by our opponents. Once we held the position, we stopped criticizing it, because it increased our power. If another non-Illuminati had become King/Viceroy, we probably would have started protesting it again.

[OverKnight]

Oh yeah. . .still even if Matthias never became King, he would have opposed the rest of Illuminati moving against Outremer as a whole. I'm glad I never had to choose.

Still Lothar's faux disapproval did manage to siphon off a lot of the legitimate opposition.

[gibsonsg91921]

Meh, I really just didn't like when he disapproved of the Teutonic Crusade. That's what won Matthias over for me.