KotR - Unanswered Questions

[Privateerkev]

Good to know PK.

It was always a combination of trying to push Karl's Chivalry hard and making sure that the fact we where in the same house explained why we did work together. My hope was that people would see a honourable man loyal to his Duke but that was as far as it went. The idea that he was a member of the Illuminati could be possible but never really plausible due to the differences in Arnold and Karl.

The fact that Karl was Illuminati was a secret. I never even suspected it. But Jan still didn't trust him. It had to do with his voting record. He voted in a way that made it clear that he was very very loyal to Arnold. Hence, he was not trusted by the anti-Illuminati crowd and would never had been brought in while Jan was alive.

TC was right to push for recruiting Illuminati members from other Houses than Bavaria and Austria. Since the Illuminati was associated with Lothar and Arnold, no Austrian/Bavarian was ever completely trusted. Hence one of the reasons the anti-Illuminati crowd came mainly out of Swabia/Franconia.

Like I said before, recruiting Fritz was the smartest thing the Illuminati did.

[Northnovas]

Well that was the thing about Karl and what I was trying to RP was the loyalty which lacked in other Houses. Even before the Illuminate, starting with Leopold I was going to have the character remain loyal to the House no matter what differences may arise; hence the voting record. I owed my postion belonging to that House nothing more.

What I hope to see is something of an oath into the new game were there is a bond within the Houses that works each character relying on the other to maintain the power. At least have some representation of the Feudal System in the game for the era we are playing.

I never felt I was a secret agent (can't mix RL with gameplay ) but the only thing that could be against Karl was his loyalty to the Duke. The real secretive stuff came getting Max in to the Illuminate IC. That took a bit of thinking.

[AussieGiant]

The fact that Karl was Illuminati was a secret. I never even suspected it. But Jan still didn't trust him. It had to do with his voting record. He voted in a way that made it clear that he was very very loyal to Arnold. Hence, he was not trusted by the anti-Illuminati crowd and would never had been brought in while Jan was alive.

TC was right to push for recruiting Illuminati members from other Houses than Bavaria and Austria. Since the Illuminati was associated with Lothar and Arnold, no Austrian/Bavarian was ever completely trusted. Hence one of the reasons the anti-Illuminati crowd came mainly out of Swabia/Franconia.

Like I said before, recruiting Fritz was the smartest thing the Illuminati did.

Ah ha so it did work to a degree. The best I could hope for was exactly that with Karl. He was suspect but not proven.

And yes we really needed people from other houses given the Lothar/Arnold thing.

[GeneralHankerchief]

Leopold supported Heinrich, despite past differences, when the Kaiser ran for a second term, was there a deal between them, and what was it?

I don't think so. IIRC, Leopold just realized that he was never going to triumph in his little battle with Heinrich (started due to what he perceived as injustice as far as land to Austria went) and cut his losses, hoping to get on Dad's good side.

As far as I can remember, it was an unconditional apology. If he was meant to get back in Heinrich's good graces so he'd have the Kaiser's support in the next Chancellor election (which would have been 1160; he apologized in 1140) it probably worked, although Heinrich might have supported him anyway due to his hatred of Henry.

[OverKnight]

Interesting, I always felt that Venice was the prize Leopold sought in return for his change of heart.

Oddly enough Heinrich's run was the first time Leopold and Otto cooperated, a detente soon to evaporate in the strike against Pope Gregory. It did set the table for their later cooperation though, helped along by AussieGiant's originial, avatarless, character.

Specifically, in exchange for Austrian support during his own run for Chancellor, Otto made the acquisition of Ragusa by Austria a main goal of his term. Even after reconciliation when we had to tread carefully, Ragusa was a target, despite Pope calling for an end of hostilities against the Venetians. Otto owed a favor and it was a highly strategic castle.

This was the first of many examples of Bavarian-Austrian cooperation.

[AussieGiant]

Interesting, I always felt that Venice was the prize Leopold sought in return for his change of heart.

Oddly enough Heinrich's run was the first time Leopold and Otto cooperated, a detente soon to evaporate in the strike against Pope Gregory. It did set the table for their later cooperation though, helped along by AussieGiant's originial, avatarless, character.

Specifically, in exchange for Austrian support during his own run for Chancellor, Otto made the acquisition of Ragusa by Austria a main goal of his term. Even after reconciliation when we had to tread carefully, Ragusa was a target, despite Pope calling for an end of hostilities against the Venetians. Otto owed a favor and it was a highly strategic castle.

This was the first of many examples of Bavarian-Austrian cooperation.

I remember that now!! Wow...that's some time back.

I believe my avatar less "Merchant of Venice" character did speak to Leopold/Ituralde about what happened there. I vaguely remember Ituralde saying to me that it was an unconditional apology at the time. I do certainly remember having a few back room PM's with Leopold about the land allocation and how unbalanced it was and especially when we had no castle complex at the time.

It seemed very sporting to me that Ragusa, a Citadel was quickly taken when Otto came to power as a result.

[GeneralHankerchief]

I believe my avatar less "Merchant of Venice" character did speak to Leopold/Ituralde about what happened there.

I hated that guy.

There were a few reasons why Heinrich really didn't give that much to Austria in the beginning of the game. Some of them, which he explicitly stated in the Diet, were correct. Some of them went unsaid and were more subvert.

a) He really believed in the geographical allocation system. I, both as GH and Heinrich, remember taking a small amount of heat in the beginning of the game, but I stuck to my guns and it worked out pretty well in the end.

b) Austria wasn't our priority. Back then, most of our wars were either in Italy or up north (and later on, in Swabia). There was no reason to give Austria an army and land if she didn't need it, which leads directly into...

c) He wanted the Houses as weak as possible. As Kaiser, I fought tooth-and-nail to keep the Reich as centralized as possible and to keep as much authority in my hands as long as I could. Getting Austria a castle when they didn't have priority gave them more power and independence. Since most of my Dukes were unfriendly and powerful, I figured that an unfriendly and weak Duke in Austria wouldn't be that bad. Ultimately, his weakness would need him to rely on the central figure - moi. Kind of like the way US states are so dependent on the federal government for funding, that's the way I envisioned a Heinrichian HRE.

Unfortunately, with the advent of the House Armies, my strategy didn't work out too well to plan, but I did manage to get TinCow as Mandorf to agree to give me an unofficial House Army to make sure Operation: Papal Smackdown went flawlessly. I still have those PMs when TC and OK discovered the plan and we coordinated everything.

[Privateerkev]

Unfortunately, with the advent of the House Armies, my strategy didn't work out too well to plan, but I did manage to get TinCow as Mandorf to agree to give me an unofficial House Army to make sure Operation: Papal Smackdown went flawlessly. I still have those PMs when TC and OK discovered the plan and we coordinated everything.

Reading the Diet around that time, I saw that Heinrich opened an emergency session to get the 1st crusade going. In the beginning, Heinrich and Mandorf mention something of a deal. And Mandorf mentioned a threat he would carry out if Heinrich did not open the emergency session.

What did Mandorf threaten to do if Heinrich refused to let the Reich save it's soul with a Crusade?

I've always wondered this.

[Privateerkev]

although Heinrich might have supported him anyway due to his hatred of Henry.

Was there anything going on behind the scenes that made Heinrich hate Henry? From the outside, it just seemed that Heinrich didn't like Henry's attempt at a "neutral" stance in politics. Later of course there was the disagreement over Papal-Smack 1. But anything else?

[GeneralHankerchief]

Heinrich had a mild dislike for Henry basically because he didn't think Henry had the stomach to do anything.

It pretty much turned to hatred after the election of 1140 when Heinrich found out that Henry was lobbying for Mandorf behind the scenes. Considering that Henry was the dude's son, Heinrich pretty much considered this the highest of insults. It took a lot of restraint for me to not kill econ21's character in that battle with the Milanese.

I made it a point to openly attack Henry's character in the Diet, more than anyone else's, after that.

[Privateerkev]

It's interesting that Heinrich got what he wanted (Papal-Smackdown 1) but the Reich reacted with reforms that made sure nothing like that could ever happen again. (unless it was scripted OOC like the run-up to the cataclysm)

The Dukes took control over the Reich and 2 of them we're able to steer things behind the scenes. The power of the Kaiser weakened more and more because many people believed IC that Heinrich over-reached.

Playing a Royalist for the life of my character, I see Heinrich's move against the Pope as the source for the Dukes' massive rise in power. The backlash was just too massive.

Heinrich seemed like a cool guy. Wish I was around back then.

[GeneralHankerchief]

I don't think it was Papal Smackdown so much as the House Armies that wrecked the Kaiser's power. Give any man a permanent army regulated by law to maintain and he becomes that much more powerful. Multiply that by four and you get one screwed Kaiser.

As much as that election was a farce since Pope Gregory was dead either way, if Heinrich had won things would have been so much more dramatic. I probably would have either ignored or half-enacted the House Armies, using the war against the Papacy as an excuse to delay their composition. If anybody wanted an Emergency Session I would have shot them down (remember, back then, only the Kaiser could call one).

...now that I think about it, doing it probably would have enacted those reforms anyway. Damn!