Game mechanics questions

[Raz]

Hmm, wonder why macsen hasn't beaten me to this one...
Note: I believe this belongs in the Alchemists Lab, perhaps? But hey, it gets more attention here. =D

1. I'm assuming that the viking_build_prod.txt and viking_unit_prod.txt are the ones used for the Viking campaign, while the "crusaders" files get used for the main campaign. projectilestats.txt is shared, correct?

True. If you are ever unsure, open \campmap\startpos\"era".txt and check. Where "era" is say Vikings etc. It says somewhere close to the top of the file something along the lines of: "UnitProd: viking_unit_prod.txt BuildProd viking_build_prod.txt"
projectilestats.txt is shared, true, so be careful what you touch in there.

2. For the farm upgrades, in the build_prod file they are listed with 200, 400, 480, 560 "income" in viking, and 120, 140, 160, 180 "income" in crusaders. These are supposed to be percentages, not actual income figures like the ones given for mines or cathedrals. Is this sorted out in the engine by the BuildingType label of FARM_INCOME? Anything special about LEV1_INCOME and CATHEDRAL_INCOME BuildingTypes? Also, any idea what makes the Forest Clearing indestructable?

No (I think...), those income values are directly implemented in game, they are adjusted in the startpost file I've referred to above under each province. That way you'll see that farm income in Sinai etc. is low no matter how much you soup up the farms. That label simply relates to what is read in game... e.g. "The farms in this province will generate the following income:" and "These mines will produce this following income:" etc. The only one that is different is trade and ports, which is dependent on your province's trade resources and ship routes etc.

3. Never seen this, because I always try to stay pagan as the Vikings, but what happens to pagan shrines when the Vikings convert? Do they just go away/get destroyed?

I actually have no clue... I've only ever really played a VI campaign properly as, well, the Vikings...

4. Abbeys in VI are listed with an income of 400 in build_prod. I thought this was supposed to be 200. Do I need to rethink my destruction strategy?

Hmm? Income or cost to construct? You get money from destroying buildings relative to how much it costs... Sorry, I don't think I quite get you on this. You'll have to wait for someone more experienced then me.

5. I always thought that building the first-level castle building gave a happiness bonus, but I see that is not the case in build_prod. Is this just a figment of my imagination, or something hard-coded into the engine? I can imagine this being the case, since the castles get displayed on the main map. Any idea what (if any) the happiness bonus is?

It's hard-coded. I don't know the exact bonus, sorry.

6. Lastly, Merchants. I assume the engine knows what to do with the TRADING_POST BuildType combined with tech level, because there isn't anything else in there. The bigger the trading post, the more income it makes. Any ideas on how this works with respect to the trade goods present?

Are you looking for a magic formula that shows how much income you'll get if you had x merchant with y trade goods and z trade routes? Well, I don't think you'll find one.
But that sounds more like a question for Puzz the ultra-uber technical guy. If he doesn't mind me saying...

- Eh, I just realized I didn't answer half of those questions... shows how much I know... =D

[amritochates]

1."I'm assuming that the viking_build_prod.txt and viking_unit_prod.txt are the ones used for the Viking campaign, while the "crusaders" files get used for the main campaign. projectilestats.txt is shared", correct? -yes.

Also in the campmap/names folder you get a separate viking heroes.txt, as well as separate files in the loc/eng folder as well.

2." For the farm upgrades, in the build_prod file they are listed with 200, 400, 480, 560 "income" in viking, and 120, 140, 160, 180 "income" in crusaders. These are supposed to be percentages, not actual income figures like the ones given for mines or cathedrals. Is this sorted out in the engine by the BuildingType label of FARM_INCOME? Anything special about LEV1_INCOME and CATHEDRAL_INCOME BuildingTypes?"

Yes, they are indeed percentages- the general formula being if base income level is 100, then the first upgrade will generate 120 in the main campaign and 200 in the viking campaign subject. This however is modified by a number of factors, so that actual income may vary from 110-124(only for illustration-not actual figures). Search the site for more detailed information.

In case of LEV1_INCOME and CATHEDRAL_INCOME you get about roughly 55%of the amount mentioned in the income column- ex. a figure of 400 will generate about 208 florins.

Also, any idea what makes the Forest Clearing indestructable?- most probably hardcoded as far as I know.

3."Never seen this, because I always try to stay pagan as the Vikings, but what happens to pagan shrines when the Vikings convert? Do they just go away/get destroyed?" -yes they are destroyed as in case of any religious building alien to the culture actually occupying the province. ex the abbeys in the british isles when raided by you.

4. see post no.2 for first part and you get money from destroying buildings relative to how much it costs- but the vikings get a special hard coded raiding bonus as well as the ability to raid without using ports.

5."I always thought that building the first-level castle building gave a happiness bonus, but I see that is not the case in build_prod. Is this just a figment of my imagination, or something hard-coded into the engine? I can imagine this being the case, since the castles get displayed on the main map. Any idea what (if any) the happiness bonus is?" -No happiness bonus afaik, but you do get a minimal chance of bandits appearing in a province with a fort- again hardcoded.

6. Again a formula exists somewhere- check in the giudes or post in the alchemist lab.

[macsen rufus]

Hmm, wonder why macsen hasn't beaten me to this one...

Cos I only saw it 5 mins before I finished work for the weekend

I'll just add a small note: trade goods are defined for their value in the startpos file. If you want to make some goods really valuable, that's where you'd do it. I think it's the DeclareTradeGoods command, which gives a name (eg WOOL) followed by a value. So if wool is defined at a value of "10" your first level merchant would give 10 florins per year income. If you then build a port and trade it across the seas, you'll get an extra 10 florins for each port that imports it. The second level mechant adds a percentage (I think it's 20% per level, but I could be wrong), in which case your wool becomes worth 12 florins and so on. Now trade incomes are also affected by governor's acumen and other V&Vs so this figure will vary.

And yes, forest clearing is hardcoded as indestructible - making it a very useful item to rename and re-use for something else in mods The Viking port is also indestructible IIRC.

Viking raiding bonus means they recoup the full cost of a destroyed building instead rather than the usual half...

[drone]

Thanks for the responses. I'm not trying to mod anything, I just want a clearer understanding of what's going on.

On my Abbey destruction comment, I was referring to destroying Abbeys early on as a non-Viking faction, to make the province less attractive to the raiders. 200 a turn is doable if it keeps the province safe, 400 a turn, I would have to reconsider. Interesting take on the CATHEDRAL_INCOME percentages, I wonder why they would have done that? Does cathedral income depend on the religion percentage/zeal of the province?

Good stuff on the merchant line. I assume the base values then are the "local trade" income I've seen mentioned (but not explained) everywhere.

I know I need to look closer into the startpos files. That is next on the list.

[macsen rufus]

I assume the base values then are the "local trade" income I've seen mentioned

Spot on - this is what you'll be left with if your port is blockaded, as well. Some goods are worth building a trader for, even in inland provinces (eg tradable salt in XL, nets you 80-90 florins depending on governors etc, or a ten-year ROI)

Does cathedral income depend on the religion percentage/zeal of the province?

No, it is fiixed, doesn't even vary with governor's acumen.

destroying Abbeys early on as a non-Viking faction

Now some may advocate such a strategy, but personally I regard it as highly cheesy. Also I like to role-play my "Defender of the Faith" position as a good Catholic (admittedly this usually means having to sacrifice one of my princesses to the pagans, but it saves my abbeys After all an abbey takes 10 years and 2000 florins, a new daughter is but a night's work )

[drone]

Now some may advocate such a strategy, but personally I regard it as highly cheesy. Also I like to role-play my "Defender of the Faith" position as a good Catholic (admittedly this usually means having to sacrifice one of my princesses to the pagans, but it saves my abbeys After all an abbey takes 10 years and 2000 florins, a new daughter is but a night's work )

It's cheesy, but when you play the Scots you have to do what you can to survive.

On to some combat-related questions:

7. The shield modifier. Some units have a shield modifier that either halves the effectiveness of the shield, or negates it entirely. I assume this is done to get around some graphical mechanical issues with respect to unit balance. Large shields seen, but only as effective as small ones? I think I understand the mechanics, just curious about the reasoning behind it.

8. What is the skirmish stand-off distance? 25-30 meters?

9. Charging and pushback. The official guide says the attacker gets a +6 bonus if the defender is being pushed back. It also talks about the charge bonus being applied until the momentum dies down. Any ideas on when charging "ends", and when pushback occurs?

[macsen rufus]

Re shields: stats and graphics are totally unrelated in a mechanical sense. The reason some shields have reduced effectiveness is that the units are already so well armoured that adding a shield doesn't make a great difference to the level of protection.

Hmmm, distances I'm not too clear on, but that sounds reasonable - I could never throw a javelin much further than 25m (though I did set the record at our school for a while ) There is a formula somewhere relating the distance unit used in the prod files and "real" distances, but it's not something that I've ever really thought worth sweating over....

I don't know the exact moment a "charge" ends. It probably varies in different situations, depending on the unit charging and the unit being charged at, and also terrain (I expect an uphill charge to falter more rapidly than a downhill one...) I would expect a charge to be over once the unit has come to a halt, or significantly slowed down, but again, it's one I handle more by "feel" than any hard and fast stats. You can tell when your horses start dropping like flies

[Ironside]

In case of LEV1_INCOME and CATHEDRAL_INCOME you get about roughly 55%of the amount mentioned in the income column- ex. a figure of 400 will generate about 208 florins.

It's 52%. Afaik it has to do with the number of week during a year. Most likely a relic from some point of the development.

[macsen rufus]

where the distances are measured from.

Good question... from my observations I believe they're measured from the unit flag. Often there will be part of a unit "in range" ie you get a green arrow over the ground, but red over the unit, until the unit flag comes within range, at which point the cursor goes green. So although individual men may well be well within range you still can't target them - this is especially noticeable when playing with large/huge units.

[drone]

It's 52%. Afaik it has to do with the number of week during a year. Most likely a relic from some point of the development.

Interesting. That's for both the mines and churches? I wonder if this is a leftover byproduct of STW's seasons.

Good question... from my observations I believe they're measured from the unit flag. Often there will be part of a unit "in range" ie you get a green arrow over the ground, but red over the unit, until the unit flag comes within range, at which point the cursor goes green. So although individual men may well be well within range you still can't target them - this is especially noticeable when playing with large/huge units.

That's what I was thinking as well. The skirmish distance might also be computed by the unit flags, I've seen the ends of units come pretty close before the pull back starts, when units aren't parallel to each other.

[drone]

More building questions:

10. Valour bonuses and building lines. I'll use VI as an example, since there are more cases here. The Bowyer line has the Butts, Bowyer, and Bowyer's Workshop. The Gnome Editor has the following under Troop upgrades:

"{}, {UPGRADE_VALOUR(1)},{UPGRADE_VALOUR(2)}"

So this would lead me to believe that units available with the Butts would get +1 with a Bowyer, and +2 with a Bowyer's Workshop (this is what the tech tree says anyway). However, it's not clear what happens when the Bowyer is needed to produce a troop (Mounted Crossbows) and the higher level building is present. Does the engine figure the valour difference between the required build level and the top level building?

(Might not be the best example, since Mounteds require another building line...)

11. Building line bonus replacements (this one has come up recently I think). Again using VI, I'll use the Church line. The happiness bonus for the Church line is listed as "10, 20, 30". My assumption is that each upgrade replaces the previous building in the line, so a Catholic Chapel gives 20%, not 10% + 20%. Is this right?

Then comes the Cathedral, which is a separate building line. It has a 40% happiness bonus. Does the Cathedral replace the Church, for a 40% total, or do they co-exist for a 30% + 40% bonus?

[macsen rufus]

The valour bonuses do work pretty much as you say If a unit requires the "v1" building (eg bowyer) then it will have a +1 bonus in the "v2" building (eg bowyer's workshop).

Where two building lines are required, then the one listed first in the unit_prod entry is the one that gives the valour bonus. So if you had a unit needing a swordsmith and spearmaker, you could set the valour bonus to come from either building: for a swordsmith-line bonus you would enter (swordsmith, spearmaker) and reversing this would give the bonus from the spearmaker line.

The exception to this is for cavalry, where the horse breeder line always gives the valour bonus.

The happiness bonuses do work on a "replacement" basis when a building is upgraded, but where different building types are available they should be cumulative. So church replaces chapel, but a cathedral is extra

[drone]

The valour bonuses do work pretty much as you say If a unit requires the "v1" building (eg bowyer) then it will have a +1 bonus in the "v2" building (eg bowyer's workshop).

Of course, VI being what it is, has to add a quirk. The Royal_Palace building line has this:

"{},{UPGRADE_VALOUR(1)},{UPGRADE_VALOUR(1)}"

So the Mead Hall gives +1 valour to the Drinking Hall-enabled troops. Does the Royal Palace give +1 to Mead Hall troops (Gallowglasses, Dartmen, Beserkers)? Or are they not affected because there is no increase from their required level?

The happiness bonuses do work on a "replacement" basis when a building is upgraded, but where different building types are available they should be cumulative. So church replaces chapel, but a cathedral is extra

That's what I thought. It's logical, since the building lines determine what shows up in the existing buildings window for a province. Thanks for the verification.


I really shouldn't drink when I play MTW, I'm sure it's affecting my observational abilities.