OOC Thread

[Ituralde]

This brings me to another question. Although I'm not playing this should come up pretty soon. How is sieging as such handled? I mean once the enemy army is in front of Dijon it should be besieged, right? Meaning its garrison should loose troops, it can not be reinforced from the outside, and it can't train any soldiers or build any buildings. How much of these things will be taken into account when a city is besieged in a Civil War?

[TinCow]

A PvP siege falls under the rules of a PvP battle: thus, it's up the umpire of the battle. If the umpire is me, this is how I would do it (and am doing it during the Test Game):

Attacks can be made at any time, as long as the attacking army has seige engines of some kind, either artillery or the typical ladders/rams/towers type. I will not allow spies to open gates in PvP, however I will allow betrayals like deguerra had planned at Staufen during the Cataclysm. Every turn that the besieging army remains next to the besieged city, I will allow it to use the same number of build points that it would get by besieging an AI faction city. Those build points can be turned into ladders/rams/towers in exactly the same manner. If the besieger decides to attack, they will have access to whatever siege engines they have built and whatever artillery they have brought with them.

For instance, Ignoramus could attack Dijon immediately because he has a ballista which could open a way into the city. If he attacked right now, he would have to rely exclusively on the ballista to get inside. If he waited a turn, he could build a few ladders, etc. to go along with the ballista.

I will ignore attrition because it would be a pain in the butt and TW-style garrison attrition is absurd anyway. Historically, besieging armies almost always took more losses due to attrition than besieged armies due to their much large size and lack of access to the stockpiles inside the city/castle.

[Cecil XIX]

I will ignore attrition because it would be a pain in the butt and TW-style garrison attrition is absurd anyway. Historically, besieging armies almost always took more losses due to attrition than besieged armies due to their much large size and lack of access to the stockpiles inside the city/castle.

Ah, I miss MTW. At least in that game you couldn't lay siege to a settlement for a theoretically infinite amount of time.

[Privateerkev]

Please clear your PM inbox Ig!

No PBM is complete without someone telling Ignoramus to clear his inbox. This time, I guess I have the dubious honor.

[Ignoramus]

Sorry PK. Inbox cleared.

[The Lemongate]

Question: can I take these guys in Dijon (my city) and add them to King Philip's army since it is in range? I'm pretty sure the answer is yes and then Philip can do with them as he pleases.

I believe Dijon isn't considered under siege this turn, otherwise I'd guess the answer would theoretically be no...?

Ah and watch those taxes in Frankfurt, the status and order thread says : Low, not Normal

[Ramses II CP]

Before we do anything in game plot the nearest point to Dijon along Philip's path to the Staufen region so he doesn't waste a chunk of movement.

Actually just let me know for sure that it's a fair move, and I'll snag the save and do it myself.

[Privateerkev]

Question: can I take these guys in Dijon (my city) and add them to King Philip's army since it is in range? I'm pretty sure the answer is yes and then Philip can do with them as he pleases.

I believe Dijon isn't considered under siege this turn, otherwise I'd guess the answer would theoretically be no...?

Ah and watch those taxes in Frankfurt, the status and order thread says : Low, not Normal

Here is the rule governing that:

1.4 – Game Management: At the start of each turn, the CHANCELLOR will post an annual report on the events of the last turn, including a save game file for the new turn. After the annual report is posted, players will have 24 hours to download the save, and make their personal moves. Players can move their avatars, move any army (Private, Royal, or otherwise) their avatar commands, move any military units that start the turn inside a settlement they control (garrison units), move any military units that start the turn inside a fort in a province they control (fort units), and fight any battles against the AI that they are capable of fighting with their avatar’s army. The CHANCELLOR may move any avatar or army that has not been moved in this way as he best sees fit, including moves that result in battles, except that he cannot move a player’s avatar, Private/Royal Army, garrison units, or fort units in any manner that player has expressly prohibited. The CHANCELLOR may extend the time limit beyond 24 hours at his discretion, but all players are encouraged to act as swiftly as possible to keep the game moving.

So I'm pretty sure you can.

*edit*
and no, Dijon is not under siege. Though if it is attacked this turn, TC might want to rule on whether those men make it out in time...

[The Lemongate]

Yeah it was more the fact that I wanted to pack them into another noble's army. Not that I'd think of any reason someone wouldn't want more troops

[OverKnight]

Unless an extension is requested, I will be taking back the save after the 24 hours.

While I can go ahead and do Chancellor moves and such, the game won't be able to proceed to 1148 until the assault on Dijon is resolved. Technically, we could end turn to start 1148, and mod in the losses once the battle was completed, but we wouldn't be able to open up the 1148 save until that had been done.

[Privateerkev]

Yeah it was more the fact that I wanted to pack them into another noble's army. Not that I'd think of any reason someone wouldn't want more troops

I'm pretty sure you can move troops from your garrison into an ally's army.

What I don't know is, if those men will be intercepted. It's one of those things we need to figure out in the civil war rules.

While we allow 24 hour free time to play with the save, I don't know if we try to figure out "interceptions".

But, "interceptions" aren't exactly in the rules so maybe you could just go and move the men and we'll figure it out next time.

[TinCow]

You are all 100% accurate in your interpretation of the rules. Any of the units in Dijon can be moved to any location, including someone else's army. Whether they remain there after next turn depends on the orders given for the army they end up in and the Chancellor's whims (if they are not covered by the orders).

I will resolve the assault on Dijon tonight EST and post the new save at that time.

[Ramses II CP]

So Lemon, do you want to do the move or shall I? I can do it, but drop me a line with exactly which units you want removed if it isn't the whole garrison.

[TinCow]

If the entire garrison is removed, there is no need for an AI battle. The city will simply be conquered without a fight.

[The Lemongate]

Take the entire garrison Ramses. They wouldn't hold for a second in a fight anyways.

[Ramses II CP]

You know we do have another option. I could move King Philip's army into Dijon. I suppose the question then would be which action took place first. Obviously the garrison can flee before the siege starts, but can Philip move his army into the city before hand? How close are the two forces relative to Dijon? Should we roll dice for it?

Would the siege even go forward if King Philip moved into the city?

So many questions to be answered. This being a test game, maybe that's what I should do without regard to IC matters...

[Privateerkev]

You know we do have another option. I could move King Philip's army into Dijon. I suppose the question then would be which action took place first. Obviously the garrison can flee before the siege starts, but can Philip move his army into the city before hand? How close are the two forces relative to Dijon? Should we roll dice for it?

Would the siege even go forward if King Philip moved into the city?

So many questions to be answered. This being a test game, maybe that's what I should do without regard to IC matters...

Well, Ig and I are already next door to Dijon. We didn't attack last turn because of the civil war rules forbidding first turn attacks by the declarer. So we just parked right next to the city.

And, with Ig's ballista, we're not going to siege, but simply storm in. If you want to see if you can make it into Dijon in time, just ask TC and maybe he'll set up an AI vs AI battle of you versus Ig. Also, with me just to Ig's north, I would ask if I intercepted you beforehand. Then there might be a AI vs AI battle for you vs me.

I'm glad we're doing the test game because we've already found some holes in the rules.

[Ramses II CP]

...and that's what I get for not looking at the save first. Okay, I'll snag the save and pull Dijon's garrison.

Still, it's an interesting question. What would happen if a technically neutral character moved into a city that was under threat of assault. I suppose it would be handled entirely IC via negotiation, but if those broke down and the assault went forward would it represent a new civil war against the third party?

edit for clarity: Taking the save.

[TinCow]

Since the city is kind of surrounded, I will give the besiegers the option of trying to intercept the garrison as it leaves, if they want to. If they succeed (die roll) I would start an AI battle in the field. Of course, this might piss off the King, since they garrison are bound for his army and he's still technically neutral. The reason for this is that the attack was ordered well before the garrison was evacuated. If I had the time this morning, I could have done the assault right then. The besiegers should not be penalized for my own slowness. Plus, it makes sense.

If anyone thinks this goes beyond the powers of the umpire of the Battle of Dijon, let me know. I'm doing this purely as the umpire of the battle, not as the supervisor of the entire Test Game. Is this the kind of leeway we want to allow for all battle umpires?

[Ramses II CP]

Yep, it would be fine with me either way, I just might have to edit some posts.

[Privateerkev]

Since the city is kind of surrounded, I will give the besiegers the option of trying to intercept the garrison as it leaves, if they want to. If they succeed (die roll) I would start an AI battle in the field. Of course, this might piss off the King, since they garrison are bound for his army and he's still technically neutral. The reason for this is that the attack was ordered well before the garrison was evacuated. If I had the time this morning, I could have done the assault right then. The besiegers should not be penalized for my own slowness. Plus, it makes sense.

If anyone thinks this goes beyond the powers of the umpire of the Battle of Dijon, let me know. I'm doing this purely as the umpire of the battle, not as the supervisor of the entire Test Game. Is this the kind of leeway we want to allow for all battle umpires?

I'd be fine either way.

On one hand, it makes sense to be able to intercept a unit you've been standing next to.

On the other, "interceptions" aren't in the rules so maybe we should do without it and discuss putting it in the rules for next time.

[TinCow]

Either way, I don't want to make a rule about it. It's more of a question of how much leeway we're going to give the umpire of a battle.

[Privateerkev]

Either way, I don't want to make a rule about it. It's more of a question of how much leeway we're going to give the umpire of a battle.

Ok, that makes it simpler. Then yes, I think the umpire should have the leeway to decide these things. You and Econ have done stuff like this many times and I have no problem deferring to your judgment on this.

As for which way the umpire decides, I don't care. But if I am allowed to intercept the garrison, I will take the opportunity.

(can I ask for them to surrender and add them to my army?)

[TinCow]

You can ask. They will refuse.

[Privateerkev]

You can ask. They will refuse.

Then I'll just hack them all up into little militia chunks...

Let me know how the die roll goes. :D

[TinCow]

The garrison would escape on a 5 or 6. I rolled a 4.

The battle has been played and posted. I have to say, I very much like this method. It is extremely easy to implement. It took me about 20 minutes to download the save, check the composition of the two armies, set up the custom battle, play the custom battle, upload the save and replay, and write the battle report. That is absurdly fast and it couldn't have been simpler IMO.

I also like the fact that doing it this way allows me to save a battle replay which everyone else can then view. Sure, this battle wasn't exactly a show-stopper, but I like the idea of everyone being able to see exactly what happened.

So far, the AI Battle option gets two big thumbs up from me.

[Ramses II CP]

Replays generally don't work in my experience.

[TinCow]

Hmph... Can someone try the one I uploaded and see if it works?

ETW had better fix the whole battle recordings thing, especially the ability to record SP campaign battles. That's one of the features I miss the most from MTW.

[Ignoramus]

In MTW one replay I had recorded showed my forces losing the battle when I actually won it. Hopefully it works better in MTW2.

[OverKnight]

I'm extending the free move period so everyone can react to the battle.

If anyone, particularly the combatants in the Civil War, want to move their armies post-battle, post or pm orders or do it yourself.

Remember without orders the Chancellor decides.