Assorted Historical Questions - Gertrude et al, ask them here!

[paullus]

Alright, here's a space for asking basic questions.

I'll start with the question about Ptolemaic kataphraktoi, and Gertrude and others, if y'all have questions, add them in subsequent posts.

We don't know whether the Ptolemies might have experimented with kataphraktoi at that time, we actually have rather limited information on the armament of Ptolemaic cavalry at any time after Raphia. There are a handful of terracotta figurines of 2c or 1c bc Egyptian horsemen, and a single cavalryman from the Sidon stelai, but we get very little information on the equipment carried by the Hellenic cavalry units. The papyri don't mention kataphraktoi, but then again the picture of the Ptolemaic cavalry in the 2c bc isn't particularly clear: we see some references to hipparchies (cavalry commands), and many to the katoikoi hippeis (settler cavalry), but the former could refer to any sort of cavalry, and many of the latter were not horsemen at all. So while the state of the evidence is such that the Ptolemies could have had some kataphraktoi, perhaps drawn from their Cappadocian/north Cilician cavalrymen, we don't have the evidence that would show it well one way or the other. Those same Cappadocians and their neighbors may have been the same soldiers who, in campaigns into southern Egypt in the 3c, used felt armor to cover their horses. Its possible that these felt kataphraktoi persisted, but that's hard to track. If we assume that the felt-armored cavalry in the southern expeditions were in fact the Cappadocian/north Cilician cavalrymen, then we can track their unit down to the late 3c, when the son of a commander on an elephant hunt is a hipparch in the army. But the presence of those soldiers does not necessarily mean the presence of felt kataphraktoi.

[General Appo]

Yay, great idea!

[Barry Soteiro]

Thanks !!!!!!!!


So what about the mines in the steppe ? rhinoceros references ? hetaikoi kataphractoi masks ?

I hope those can be answered too!!!

[Dhampir]

Re: Ala Imperatoria "Imperial Cavalry Wing".

Is there a reason why these units cannot be recruited in Italy? It is because they represent an auxiliary unit?

In connection with that--did the Romans have non-Auxiliary cavalry (aside from the Praetorian) that was not auxiliary?

[Karo]

I think I can awnser the question about the steppe, my awnser comes out of the novel by Iggulden about Djenkis khan and there some one gets the command to go and dig out the orbs they needed for a sword and it would take months before they had enough. So don't think they had real mines and dig it up on a very premitive way or bought it. I could be worng

[abou]

hetaikoi kataphractoi [sic] masks ?

The masks for the Hetairoi Kataphraktoi come directly from the main source - a relief from Afghanistan. On it are three very heavily armored riders with masks: a Zeus type and two "big cat" types.

Re: Ala Imperatoria "Imperial Cavalry Wing".

Is there a reason why these units cannot be recruited in Italy? It is because they represent an auxiliary unit?

In connection with that--did the Romans have non-Auxiliary cavalry (aside from the Praetorian) that was not auxiliary?

Indeed. Anytime you see "Ala", it means auxiliary even though the literal translation is "wing". By the time of the Imperial era (and possibly Marian) the change in economy and recruitment method meant that anyone who was wealthy enough to own a horse and the land wouldn't serve in the military.

[Dhampir]

Indeed. Anytime you see "Ala", it means auxiliary even though the literal translation is "wing". By the time of the Imperial era (and possibly Marian) the change in economy and recruitment method meant that anyone who was wealthy enough to own a horse and the land wouldn't serve in the military.

Ah, thank you. Enlightening.

[paullus]

Gertrude, you'll have to post a more detailed question for some of those. I can however tell you that the hetairoi kataphraktoi mask is one of 3 masks depicted on a trio of cavalrymen fom a relief found in Afghanistan during the current war. Its not published, but one of our historians has seen it in a museum archive.

[Jaume]

I have another question:

¿Why Gaesatae are so f**** brutal? I mean, ¿is there any ancient font of their good-fighting? ¿is there any historian who describes them just like killing-machines?

Cause the only thing I knew about them before playing EB was that they were naked soldiers who get absolutely slaughtered in Battle of Telamon by roman velites.

Thanks.

[Sarcasm]

I have another question:

¿Why Gaesatae are so f**** brutal? I mean, ¿is there any ancient font of their good-fighting? ¿is there any historian who describes them just like killing-machines?

Cause the only thing I knew about them before playing EB was that they were naked soldiers who get absolutely slaughtered in Battle of Telamon by roman velites.

Thanks.

Clone? Ban?

[General Appo]

I´m not going to dignify that with an anwer. Oh shit, I just did. Oh well, my bad.

[Sir Edward]

Jaume just beacuse the EB team has given all of us a legetimate thread to ask questions does not give you the right to a foul mouth rant and exuse you from using the search function on a topic that has been brought up a dozen times. They are doing a service to their fans and shouldn't be obligated to answer that crap.

[Ayce]

Can someone sticky this? With the name Assorted Historical Questions - Ask here!

[QuintusSertorius]

Indeed. Anytime you see "Ala", it means auxiliary even though the literal translation is "wing". By the time of the Imperial era (and possibly Marian) the change in economy and recruitment method meant that anyone who was wealthy enough to own a horse and the land wouldn't serve in the military.

More likely beginning of the Marian era. I wouldn't be surprised that one of the reasons they stopped recruiting citizen cavalry was because their ability to recruit had all but disappeared. Those types would only serve if they were interested in a future in the Senate, in which case they'd try to get in as a contubernales or tribune.

[cmacq]

More likely beginning of the Marian era. I wouldn't be surprised that one of the reasons they stopped recruiting citizen cavalry was because their ability to recruit had all but disappeared. Those types would only serve if they were interested in a future in the Senate, in which case they'd try to get in as a contubernales or tribune.

Very good post, well done.

[abou]

More likely beginning of the Marian era. I wouldn't be surprised that one of the reasons they stopped recruiting citizen cavalry was because their ability to recruit had all but disappeared. Those types would only serve if they were interested in a future in the Senate, in which case they'd try to get in as a contubernales or tribune.

And you're probably right. If anything, it might have started about the time of the Gracchi brothers. Only problem with those that would want to serve in the Senate is that they would have to satisfy the property requirements.

[QuintusSertorius]

And you're probably right. If anything, it might have started about the time of the Gracchi brothers. Only problem with those that would want to serve in the Senate is that they would have to satisfy the property requirements.

Well, for the wealthy who had always provided cavalry, as distinct from the traditional citizen-soldier, I don't think property qualifications were really an issue. Not least because with empire came a massive increase in the wealth of the privileged, who bought up or outright stole land off the poor.

Not a big deal for a father who wants his son to qualify before he himself dies to parcel off a tract of land big enough to him.

[russia almighty]

You know, it seems like Pre-Marian Republican Roman cavalry would have been good if they just let anyone and their mother who had a horse in.

[cmacq]

I'm sorry, but from QuintusSertorius' post above, I think a subtle point is being somewhat missed here?


From QuintusSertorius
...who bought up or outright stole land off the poor.

In large part this was the reason for the Gracchan and later reforms. Only, the very well off could afford all the aspects of maintaining a good herd. By the late 2nd century few landed or small-farm families could afford a single horse, never mind a herd.

[Atilius]

More likely beginning of the Marian era.

Yes, I think so. The last reference to Republican period Italian cavalry is in Sallustius' history of the Jugurthine war (95); he mentions Marius' quaestor Sulla arriving in camp with a body of Latin and allied horsemen he'd just recruited.

I wouldn't be surprised that one of the reasons they stopped recruiting citizen cavalry was because their ability to recruit had all but disappeared. Those types would only serve if they were interested in a future in the Senate, in which case they'd try to get in as a contubernales or tribune.

All young roman artistocrats would still be interested in a Senatorial career. But at about this time, and for reasons that aren't clear, eligibility for roman magistracies apparently required only perfunctory military service. Cicero served in a staff position for a single year during the Social War and Caesar's early army service was also brief. Both studied in the Greek east, so it looks as if education was being seen as an acceptable (or perhaps superior) substitute for military service at that time.

[Fish-got-a-Sniper]

I know next to nothing about Baktria so I have a few questions.

1.What would a Baktrian or Indo-Greek army consist of and how would that translate into an army in EB?

2.How large were the Baktrians at their height?

3.Did they change any of their fighting styled to adapt to new enemies in the steppes and India?

[keravnos]

I know next to nothing about Baktria so I have a few questions.

1.What would a Baktrian or Indo-Greek army consist of and how would that translate into an army in EB?

2.How large were the Baktrians at their height?

3.Did they change any of their fighting styled to adapt to new enemies in the steppes and India?

1. For that, you will have to wait a bit, but an early example would be the battle of Areios river - more data on them will be forthcoming.

2. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:G...KingdomMap.jpg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greco-Bactrian_Kingdom

As for the IndoGreeks (also called Yavanas by the Hindus),
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Greek_Kingdom

3. Yes to both, becoming a "civilised horde" of sorts in the steppes, and supposedly abandoning the pike phallanx for hoplites and lighter armed spearmen, for fear of mass archery and elephant assaults that this would entail. In India, Indogreeks made heavy use of local levies and of course the native baktrians (bahlikas and Kambojas) who fought alongside them, allowing them to settle in parts of India (Bahlikas in Punjab and surrounding areas, Kambojas in Mathura area and all along Indus river). This allowed IndoGreeks to have a ready to use force of loyal subjects to use. Menandros (greatest IndoGreek king, when he invaded and occupied Pataliputra/Palibothra/Patna, he is using...

"Then, after having approached Saketa together with the Panchalas and the Mathuras, the Yavanas, valiant in battle, will reach Kusumadhvaja ("The town of the flower-standard", Pataliputra). Then, once Puspapura (another name of Pataliputra) has been reached and its celebrated mud[-walls] cast down, all the realm will be in disorder." (Yuga Purana, Paragraph 47-48, 2002 edition.)

Panchalas=Bahlikas (or in EB terms' Baktrioi hippeis)
Mathuras=Native Indians (all native Indian units) AND Kambojas (or in EB terms Kamboja Asvaka Ksatriya)

(In Mahabharata Mathura is conquered by a joint Yavana(IndoGreek) and Kamboja force

MBH 12/105/5, Kumbhakonam Ed. Cf: "Mathura was under outlandish people like the Yavanas and Kambojas... who had a special mode of fighting (Manu and Yajnavalkya, Dr K. P. Jayswal.

-It was Indogreek (called Methora, or Μεθόρα by Megasthenes) from 180-100 BCE.)

For more on Kamboja and the armies they yielded, Kautiliya's Arthashastra

'Kamboja. Surastra.ksatriya.shreny.aadayo 'vaartta.shastra.upajiivinah'

i.e Corporations of warriors (Kshatriya shrenis) of the Kamboja and Surashtra and some other nations live by agriculture, trade and by wielding weapons

Kautiliya also attests that the Shrenis or corporations of the 'Shastr-opajivins' (i.e the Kambojas and Surastras etc) were the most heroic and best source for military recruitment

The Mayuravyamsakadi--Ganapatha on Panini's rule (Ganapatha II.1.72.) attests that the Kambojas and the Yavanas observed a social custom of supporting short head-hair (Kamboja.mundah Yavana.mundah...i.e shaved-headed like Kambojas, shaved-headed like Yavanas).

This same characteristics of the Kambojas are attested by Mahabharata (mundanetan ....Kambojan.eva... MBH 7/119/23) as well as numerous Puranic literature (Yavananam shirah sarvam Kambojanam tathaiva cha) (Harivamsa 14.16.)

--Thus one could conclude that by the above and other references the Kambojas and Bahlikas in India were there following their IndoGreek overlords into the central India.

Why bother with Indogreeks?

[ex]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legacy_of_the_Indo-Greeks

and their greatest accomplisment, defense of Buddhism, or the 3rd religion (numberwise) in the world which some say may have been extinguished altogether hadn't Demetrios I invaded the Sunga held Punjab.

Why so?

This is what the first Sunga emperor proclaimed when it came to Buddhists...

According to the 2nd century Ashokavadana:

"Then King Pusyamitra (first Sunga Emperor) equipped a fourfold army, and intending to destroy the Buddhist religion, he went to the Kukkutarama. (...) Pusyamitra therefore destroyed the sangharama, killed the monks there, and departed.
After some time, he arrived in Sakala, (the later IndoGreek Capital of Menandros under the name of Sagala) and proclaimed that he would give a hundred dinara reward to whomever brought him the head of a Buddhist monk" (Shramanas) Ashokavadana, 133, trans. John Strong.

Then Demetrios invaded reaching down into the Indus Mouth and Mathura, and under Menandros the Sunga capital of Pataliputra was taken. After that Sungas were a lot more likely to live with Buddhism, even built some of the greatest Stupas existing today...

Later Sunga kings were seen as amenable to Buddhism and as having contributed to the building of the stupa at Bharhut.

and what I consider to be the greatest contribution of IndoGreeks...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greco_Buddhism

[MeinPanzer]

and a single cavalryman from the Sidon stelai,

Which stele would that be?

So while the state of the evidence is such that the Ptolemies could have had some kataphraktoi, perhaps drawn from their Cappadocian/north Cilician cavalrymen, we don't have the evidence that would show it well one way or the other.

Is there any evidence for the use of cataphracts among the Cilicians or Cappadocians in the EB timeframe?

Those same Cappadocians and their neighbors may have been the same soldiers who, in campaigns into southern Egypt in the 3c, used felt armor to cover their horses. Its possible that these felt kataphraktoi persisted, but that's hard to track. If we assume that the felt-armored cavalry in the southern expeditions were in fact the Cappadocian/north Cilician cavalrymen, then we can track their unit down to the late 3c, when the son of a commander on an elephant hunt is a hipparch in the army. But the presence of those soldiers does not necessarily mean the presence of felt kataphraktoi.

But those felt cataphracts are explicitly stated to have come "from Greece."

[QuintusSertorius]

Yes, I think so. The last reference to Republican period Italian cavalry is in Sallustius' history of the Jugurthine war (95); he mentions Marius' quaestor Sulla arriving in camp with a body of Latin and allied horsemen he'd just recruited.
All young roman artistocrats would still be interested in a Senatorial career. But at about this time, and for reasons that aren't clear, eligibility for roman magistracies apparently required only perfunctory military service. Cicero served in a staff position for a single year during the Social War and Caesar's early army service was also brief. Both studied in the Greek east, so it looks as if education was being seen as an acceptable (or perhaps superior) substitute for military service at that time.

All? I'm not so certain that's the case, not least because of course there weren't enough magistracies for more than a few to actually achieve some form of office. Furthermore, as the empire grew, there were more profitable opportunities in commerce, for those who were willing to forsake a politican career.

[Son of Perun]

Short question: Is it right that Iphicratous Hoplitai have shorter spears than the classical ones?

[Jaume]

I'm sorry for my question. I wasn't accustomed to the rules of the forum. It won't happen again.

[paullus]

MP: isn't one of the soldiers assumed to be a cavalryman? his squire holds a small square shield? Perhaps that's just an assumption on Sekunda's part--I'm literally about to walk out the door, so I can't look it up right now.

Cappadocian/Cilician cav: you're right, when I say kataphraktoi, I'm really just thinking of cavalry who might wear some form of horse armor, such as that from the Persian period. And I think they could be confused as Greeks because they operated in the same circles as the Greeks: they were of the legal status in the courts of Greeks, and one section of the Hellenic army, even if they had Persian names. I think that could easily be a misunderstanding by the author, after all we know that the Cappadocian/Cilician cav were a major part of the expeditions to the south, I figure it could just be a mistake. Its really just a guess, but with the armament described and the link between Agatharchides' imported cavalry for the Ethiopian expedition and the presence of Cappadocian/Cilician cav who first appear and frequently appear in southern expeditions, I figured it was a guess worth making.

[The Persian Cataphract]

Is there any evidence for the use of cataphracts among the Cilicians or Cappadocians in the EB timeframe?

That would actually depend on how "fuzzy" we'd like to make the border between Cilicia and Cappadocia and how to properly define the "cataphract". During the late Achaemenid period, a series of reforms especially for the cavalry arm were introduced, and Xenophon mentions in his treatise on horsemanship several recommendations of using the "Persian model"; He not only mentions the so called laminated armour, but various equipment used to furnish the horse, amongst these a breast-plate, a chamfrôn and a parameridia/parapleuridia (Very esoteric debate that I'd rather not indulge in, a lot of boring technicalities), also known in more common terms as the armoured saddle. We have a limited number of depictions of this strange apparatus, amongst these the damaged relief at Bozkir, but some have suggested that it is Lycian in origin. This is to the west of the Cappadocian and Cilician areas, but these areas where quite profoundly Persianized. Especially Cappadocia which had been under heavy Medean influence since the war between Alyattes of Mermnad Lydia and Cyaxares of the Medes.

An interesting note is that we tend to overlook the importance of the Persepolis relief-works when it comes to assessing the raw material of a heavy horse; The proportions are kept consistently, and thanks to Heidemarie Koch's illustrations of certain key reliefs, we have an accessible catalogue of tribute brought by the tributaries of Darius I The Great: Sagartians for instance bring a horse with a convex profile, however with a slim and slender stature, though with quite a long and a flat back, with narrow hind-quarters. A nomad-bred horse. Armenians bring a horse, somewhat compact but with strong, muscular features. Somewhat short, the standard measurement ends by the tributary's elbow. The Saka with pointed caps bring a similar animal, with marginal differences. Lydians deviate from this pattern by bringing in a pair of small-statured horses, probably not full-grown, pulling a chariot with twelve-spoked wheels. Chorasmians are next on the list, and the horses they bring are likewise similar to the Armenians and the Scythians with pointed caps. Probably a more straight profile and a more slender neck than for instance the Armenian horse. Even the Skûdrâ (Thracians) bring horses.

But then we bump into a surprise, without a doubt the largest of the horses, with monster cannons, absolutely bulky hind-quarters and crupper, convex profile and a powerful neck. The Cappadocian tribute bearer appears shorter than the horse entirely. This monster horse is currently one of the few depictions of a breed that may have been the Nisaean, or to the contrary an image of the beasts that may have been used by the famed Lydian lance-armed cavalry. Comparing them to the monsters used by the Sassanians, reveals a startling resemblance. This really is a horse meant to carry a heavy-armed rider.

I don't want to blame the problem on lacking nomenclature, but it is a significant part of the issue; "Cataphract" was historically used like water, and only in fairly recent writings did cataphract come to mean "super-heavy cavalry". We might as well as call the Massagetae cavalry who smote Cyrus The Great and his army "cataphracts". What we do know is that the post-Achaemenid Ariarathid dynasty had a close proximity to the Atropatids of Medea-Atropatene, and the Orontids of Armenia, and they were renowned for having a strong, decimal nucleus of heavy horse. This became a typical feature in post-Achaemenid Iranian dynasties, and owes greatly to the last-minute military reforms of Darius III Codomannus and his attempt to adapt the Macedonian cavalry model into the heavy horse reserves. I would personally not rule out the possibility of Cappadocians making use of "late-Achaemenid inspired cavalry" (If we can even call them cataphracts is another issue), but it is far much more likely than Egypt, which has leaned towards different traditions. Not to mention issues like heat loss, you'd need padding or felt to alleviate these effects somewhat, and this is a profoundly western Mesopotamian feature (Hatra et al.) inspired by Parthian organization.

[Hax]

How did the Macedonian soldiers transport their sarrisoi?

[bovi]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarissa

Its great length was an asset against hoplites and other soldiers bearing shorter weapons, because they had to get past the sarissa to engage the phalangites. However, outside the tight formation of the Phalanx the Sarissa would have been almost useless as weapon and a hindrance on the march. As the Sarissa was constructed of two halves and joined by the means of a metal collar, it has been suggested that this allowed the Sarissa to be broken down into two more manageable sections for convenience of transport or on the march.