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Thread: Phalanxes Overpowered?

  1. #1
    Resident Spammer Member son of spam's Avatar
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    Default Phalanxes Overpowered?

    First, let me say what an amazing mod this is. It really got me back into RTW after messing around with M2TW and Broken Crescent. For the most part, the units look beautiful and are balanced.

    However, I do have one complaint. Why do all phalanxes have insane attack (16+?) and .17 lethality? Combined with their ridiculous reach, they massacre everything one on one. When I use them, every battle I have against the AI turns into a heroic victory, just because nothing kills them besides more phalanxes.

    I recently started a game with the Romans, and the AI uses some truly brain dead tactics with their phalanxes, exposing their flanks constantly. Still, when I try to flank them with principes, the phalanxes just turn to face the flankers, sweeping their sarissas around like a baseball bat and swatting everyone unlucky enough to be in the way. Often, even when I have basic phalanxes outnumbered and surrounded, they still inflict horrific casualties on the one unit they are poking (assuming they don't rout).

    When I fight against hoplite units (without phalanx) and surround them, my casulties are far far lower.

    My question is, wasn't the historical weakness of phalanxes the fact that they collapse quickly when flanked? Why is it that flanked phalanxes can still hold out much better than Roman legions that are flanked? Shouldn't it be the other way around? Maybe the morale for the phalanxes can be lowered?

    It really makes fighting as the successor states too easy (at least playing as Egypt), since oftentimes you don't even need to guard your flanks with other units. For the time being, I'm just playing as the Romans for some decent challenging battles.

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  3. #3
    Member Member Hax's Avatar
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    Default Re: Phalanxes Overpowered?

    Don't use Principes to flank.

    Or wait, do, but attack them in the rear with cavalry. Cavalry is your friend.
    This space intentionally left blank.

  4. #4

    Default Re: Phalanxes Overpowered?

    You've got to hold them first. that means put some cheap unit in guard mode right in front of the phalanx and advance them slowly until the phalanx actually starts fighting and engaging. When they do, they will never swing around their spears like that....you can ram them in the back with cavalry and follow it up ith infantry and they won't do anything as long as the unit they originally began to engage is still right in front of them. Yes, the 'holding unit' will take a few casualties (putting them in guard mode helps a little bit) but you should be able to crack the phalanx in a rear attack fast enough to avoid large losses.

  5. #5
    EB annoying hornet Member bovi's Avatar
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    Default Re: Phalanxes Overpowered?

    He's not saying he's having problems cracking the phalanx, but that the AI is useless against his own phalangites. Which is true of course.

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  6. #6
    Krusader's Nemesis Member abou's Avatar
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    Default Re: Phalanxes Overpowered?

    Don't let the attack value fool you. It has the "spear" attribute, which means it has a penalty against infantry. As a result, they were up-stated to compensate for that.

  7. #7

    Default Re: Phalanxes Overpowered?

    Why in the world is there a -4 penalty when using spears against infantry?

    I'm pretty sure spears were good against infantry.

  8. #8
    The Rabbit Nibbler Member Korlon's Avatar
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    Default Re: Phalanxes Overpowered?

    Just the fact that if an swordsman got past the striking distance of the spearman, the spearman will find it hard to win that fight. Though in this game it's generally about formations and spearmen work well in formation, but the developers didn't think so I guess.

    They get +8 against cavalry though, so it's alright.
    Last edited by Korlon; 04-30-2008 at 23:25.
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    Member Member The Wicked's Avatar
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    Default Re: Phalanxes Overpowered?

    no no ........no more ..........!!! The phalanxes are very well ballanced....

    "Alexander came by the statue of his father and spoke loud: `Youths of the Pellaians and of the Macedonians and of the Hellenic Amphictiony and of the Lakedaimonians and of the Corinthians... and of all the Hellenic peoples, join your fellow-soldiers and entrust yourselves to me, so that we can move against the barbarians and liberate ourselves from the Persian bondage, for AS Hellenes WE should not be slaves to barbarians."

  10. #10

    Default Re: Phalanxes Overpowered?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Wicked
    no no ........no more ..........!!! The phalanxes are very well ballanced....
    Hell no, they are often equal in skill against infantry when flanked or attacked from behind by them.

  11. #11
    Combustion Member beatoangelico's Avatar
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    Default Re: Phalanxes Overpowered?

    the problem lies in the great flexibility that the RTW engine gives to phalanxes...real life phalanxes couldn't run and change the direction of the pikes so easily

  12. #12
    Member Member The Wicked's Avatar
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    Default Re: Phalanxes Overpowered?

    Quote Originally Posted by eggthief
    Hell no, they are often equal in skill against infantry when flanked or attacked from behind by them.
    well in my mac campaing my deuteroi and mercenary phalanxes are very easy to beat in hand to hand combat .... not to mention the frontal attacks by other phalanxes ..... they fall like flies

    "Alexander came by the statue of his father and spoke loud: `Youths of the Pellaians and of the Macedonians and of the Hellenic Amphictiony and of the Lakedaimonians and of the Corinthians... and of all the Hellenic peoples, join your fellow-soldiers and entrust yourselves to me, so that we can move against the barbarians and liberate ourselves from the Persian bondage, for AS Hellenes WE should not be slaves to barbarians."

  13. #13
    NOBAΛO AYΣE Member Ayce's Avatar
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    Default Re: Phalanxes Overpowered?

    Rhomphaiaphoroi > Phalanx in hand to hand combat in all my battles.

  14. #14

    Default Re: Phalanxes Overpowered?

    Quote Originally Posted by abou
    Don't let the attack value fool you. It has the "spear" attribute, which means it has a penalty against infantry. As a result, they were up-stated to compensate for that.
    ...except that spear was replaced with light_spear starting with 1.0 (replacing the -4 attack vs infantry with -4 defense vs infantry) but the increased spear attack values were not lowered back.
    Last edited by mcantu; 05-01-2008 at 02:27.
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  15. #15

    Default Re: Phalanxes Overpowered?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ayce
    Rhomphaiaphoroi > Phalanx in hand to hand combat in all my battles.
    Seconded. Armor-piercing weapons seem to do really well against pretty much anything hellenic.

  16. #16
    EBII Mod Leader Member Foot's Avatar
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    Default Re: Phalanxes Overpowered?

    Its probably their armour. And the fact that they are generally placed in tight formations.

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  17. #17

    Default Re: Phalanxes Overpowered?

    Yeah the problem comes from the basic RWT engine that allows phalanx units to do instant about faces when attacked from behind.

    That and your tactics are making it worse it seems.

    You have one unit engage the phalanx and once they are fighting you have your principes unload all their pila into the phalanx from behind which will kill dozens if not half of the unit.

    Then after they finish throwing you charge in and clean up the rest.


    Now to add realism it should be modded so that a phalanx can do an about face and once you hit the "go out of phalanx" button you should lose the ability for the rest of the battle since basically your soldiers just had to drop the spears and a unit will not be picking them back up in battle easily.

  18. #18

    Default Re: Phalanxes Overpowered?

    Yeah the problem comes from the basic RWT engine that allows phalanx units to do instant about faces when attacked from behind.

    That and your tactics are making it worse it seems.

    You have one unit engage the phalanx and once they are fighting you have your principes unload all their pila into the phalanx from behind which will kill dozens if not half of the unit.

    Then after they finish throwing you charge in and clean up the rest.


    Now to add realism it should be modded so that a phalanx can do an about face and once you hit the "go out of phalanx" button you should lose the ability for the rest of the battle since basically your soldiers just had to drop the spears and a unit will not be picking them back up in battle easily.

  19. #19

    Default Re: Phalanxes Overpowered?

    Has anybody noticed that thureophoroi and similar spear troops get mauled attacking a phalanx from the rear? I think that's because rear soldiers switch to swords and get the bonus. Non-spear infantry do better in flanking.

    The other real annoying thing about phalanxes is they can't fight another phalanx on level ground without killing each other in 5 minutes.

  20. #20
    Resident Spammer Member son of spam's Avatar
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    Default Re: Phalanxes Overpowered?

    Quote Originally Posted by mcantu
    ...except that spear was replaced with light_spear starting with 1.0 (replacing the -4 attack vs infantry with -4 defense vs infantry) but the increased spear attack values were not lowered back.
    Can someone else confirm if that's true? Would modding down the attack and increasing defense skill of all light_spear units solve this?

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