a quick guide to using cavalry..

[Ibrahim]

(this is not meant to be definitive or all knowing. its a basic guide afterall)

ok, first off, I have seen quite a few posts around here that complain that cavalry is too weak in EB. they argue that every time they charge, they get they're men butchered. having used AS and romani cavalry in EB, of every type and denomination, I can prove otherwise.

I will start simple, a one on one guide to a basic charge. then I will add more info and types of carges in EB, and the application of cavalry. Now, let the slaughter begin!

lesson 1: the charge:

many of you probably want to know what it really is (yeah I know you know). What I mean by that is: what qualifies as a charge? a charge has several important components or steps for it to work. they are:

1-type of cavalry: that determines if you can charge in the first place.
2-formation: if your cavalry can mount an effective charge, what do you want to do with them? want to use them as a hammer, a pile driver, or a enveloper/flanker?
3-speed and distance: simple. too close= no charge. too far= tired cavalry. either way you are
4-horns and gallop: the timnig if correct, will cause you to hear a horn go off, and lances couched.
5-follow through: that matters the most (believe it or not). (ya I know its obvious).

for perposes of demonstration (and to make a point) this will be a head on charge on hoplitai.

part one: the type and formation are merged:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

as you see, I'm using AS atandard issue-the hetairoi. they can be put into two formations. this one on top is the hammer/piledriver approach, great for shattering a front line. chargin vcavalry are normally medium to cataphract grade cav. typified by use of the xyston, the longche, or the dreaded Kontos. they also ted to be well armored (30 and up, though not always).

type two: a basic line. note that that is all purpose in form, and that the general is in the rear.

part two: speed and distance:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

when you order an attack, do so starting with a simple trot. use gallup from moment one only if absolutely necessary. the last thing you want are tire horsemen and horses.

order acceleration when about 150-200 m from the enemy. that way, you can have the charge happen more readily. it also keeps the men fresh as possible.

part 3: charge!

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

if all goes right, then 4-10 (50-80m) secs before impact the charge order will be sounded. note the couched lances (the horn blew 2 secs earlier).

now all this is good and dandy, but remember: these units are meant to be used on masse. if you use 1 hetairoi/ strategos, you wont be able to hit the enemy as hard, and you will possibly be screwed.

part 4: now for the impact and follow through. if you have a weak stomach, do not look. content is very graphic. I f you think charges are too weak in EB, think again.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

this is the hoplitai unit before th chare. note that there are 83 men in that group, and they are fresh and eager.

this is 2-10 secs after impact of the lead element of cavalry. note the losses on the enemy's side, as opposed to mine. I pulled my cav. out as the pic was taken.



these are the bodies of the dead. note that engagement time was about 10 secs long, enough for the full force of impact to dissipitate.


not how this man's horse is in the pic, though not near him. this gives you an idea of the impact. also says that RTW-BI is bugged..

the followup: regroup 1-200 trds from the enemy, then do it all over again minus the trotting


enemy before 2nd charge.


again, note losses on both sides. again the fight was short and sharp.

by now the enemy is reeling, and falling back. but he's still eager to fight. repeat the previous steps again and this will happen:




and of course, this:

this can also shatter spartans in shield wall mind you. now EB cav is indeed not the all killing weapon in RTW vanilla, but I hope this has shown that they are far from wussies. note that both mine and enemy units are 0 exp, 0 armor up and shield too. my men out number there's, since one must use cavalry on masse. lastly realize that this is not meant for a head on attack. its meant for the flank or rear of the enemy
this concludes my lecture on the basic charge

[Chirurgeon]

Nice guide! Very simple and yet very appropriate. I am glad you did this

[Atanamir]

Realy good!! Thanks!!!

[LorDBulA]

Very nice. Just to support this I will say that today I used Makedonia 40 bodyguards to crush 100 Spartans with a front charge.
It took around 6 or 7 frontal charges and I lost 21 men ( Spartans where supported by Akontistai fire and this claimed few horsemen life ) but still 5 to 1 casualty ratio with enemy two and a half number advantage is very good.

[mlc82]

Very nice and simple! Do you think that, if there are no reserves behind the enemy unit(s) you charge, it would be more effective to then double-click a hundred or so meters behind them after impact and drive the cavalry through instead of pulling them back? Just wondering because many times when pulling back, a few cavalrymen tend to get hung up in the enemy formation and slaughtered- the driving through should also wreak havoc on their formation if you follow up with infantry, although I have no idea if this has any real effect due to RTW hardcoded limits.

[Ibrahim]

Very nice and simple! Do you think that, if there are no reserves behind the enemy unit(s) you charge, it would be more effective to then double-click a hundred or so meters behind them after impact and drive the cavalry through instead of pulling them back? Just wondering because many times when pulling back, a few cavalrymen tend to get hung up in the enemy formation and slaughtered-the driving through should also wreak havoc on their formation if you follow up with infantry, although I have no idea if this has any real effect due to RTW hardcoded limits.

that would work; remember that I said pull back. I didn't say to where. however, this is potentialy more dangerous, since often the rear of whatever you are pouncing on tends to remain intact. result=lose way more men. in the end, haing a few get stuck and killed is normal, and mostly unavoidable (all my casualties in the demo were from hang ons). it will even happen if you do it that way. follow up is possible with infantry.

Very nice. Just to support this I will say that today I used Makedonia 40 bodyguards to crush 100 Spartans with a front charge.
It took around 6 or 7 frontal charges and I lost 21 men ( Spartans where supported by Akontistai fire and this claimed few horsemen life ) but still 5 to 1 casualty ratio with enemy two and a half number advantage is very good.

I got similar results myself charging them..

[Ibrahim]

I also hope to publish another article on wednesday-Allah willing. It will be on how to use light and medium cavalry, and their various types, hopefully.

[Flying Pig]

Try one on Vanilla chariots. It says they are awesome but It can be hard to get them so powerful.

[Irishmafia2020]

Good demonstration on how Heavy cav can take on spearmen in a full frontal charge, although Companion Cavalry are one of the very best cav units in the game, so the victory was a bit lopsided. I am much more interested in your demonstrations/guides relating to the lesser (medium-light) cavalry. I would suggest Baktrian hippies though if you want to keep the demonstration simple and obvious (they are a very powerful medium cav). Also I for one would be specifically interested in a guide on how to use Melee cavalry. Thanks for the demo...

[Korlon]

Melee cavalry just really means cavalry that have a whole lot of armor. Cataphracts would be considered as such.

Melee cavalry usually have lances and swords. Their armor allows them to stay in the fight for longer than most other cavalry as well.

They can charge frontally, but it's always best to charge from the rear or flank as always. From what I understand, spearmen get a little invisible attack roll if they're properly formed and cavalry charge them head on.

You can use Alt + Right click to charge. This would charge with the lance and then your cavalry will automatically switch to their secondary weapons.

I suggest using the spear/lance against opposing cavalry, secondary weapons (such as swords or mace) on infantry. If the enemy's really heavily armored and you have only a regular sword as a secondary, but with an AP xyston or kontos, use that instead to kill the infantry.

Really, melee cavalry are just extremely powerful to use. If you have the chance, don't let them stay in the melee, but instead pull them back and charge again. The charge bonus is very important if you want to stave off casualties.

Otherwise, just use them as you would any other cavalry, only you can use them in even more situations.

[Ibrahim]

Good demonstration on how Heavy cav can take on spearmen in a full frontal charge, although Companion Cavalry are one of the very best cav units in the game, so the victory was a bit lopsided. I am much more interested in your demonstrations/guides relating to the lesser (medium-light) cavalry. I would suggest Baktrian hippies though if you want to keep the demonstration simple and obvious (they are a very powerful medium cav). Also I for one would be specifically interested in a guide on how to use Melee cavalry. Thanks for the demo...

true. I realize this, so next time I'll use something less effective(E. extraprdinarii maybe?). but the results are actually very similar( only a little less effective, inspite a -7 shock as oppsed to the hetairoi(34 to 40). I had the roman E.Extraordinarii do the same. the Xystaphoroi and other shock cavalry are not as deadly, but it really doesn't matter too much. the key point of the demo is to break them, not kill them. the Hetairoi happen to have the ability to kill more, but any shock cavalry can break hoplites. you may also take somewhat higher losses too.
bear in mind as well that hetairoi or hetairoi like are common to AS, Mak, the baktrioi (its a cata version), and Epeiros (known as the molossian agema) the ptolies have a similar capability cavalry too. also many players that I see these complaints from play with these cavalry types. again I will elaborate more on the uses of lighter cavalry later this week. just wait.

as for melee cavalry, it is mostly as korlon said (note that the lesson mention cataphracts). so no lecture on melee cavalry will be presented. sorry.

[mcantu]

great guide Ibrahim.

what happens if you have the hoplitai defending?

[Ibrahim]

great guide Ibrahim.

what happens if you have the hoplitai defending?

as I said(or showed), the line will be seriously mauled, but not break. the hoplitai will perhaps kill a little more, but not in a relavent manner. and this is to show how to mount a charge, not how to use it (I'l elaborate later-just wait). if you read the end, you'd know that in a real EB battle I would't do what I did in the demo.

[Ibrahim]

anyways.. before I begin, I like to set up a few rules:

1-no irrelevant questions(hear me mcantu?) and 2-no insults (luckily you were all nice so far to one another and me)

now..

Lesson 2: medium cavalry.

medium cavalry is a hard concept to define. many have proposed several ideas as to what they are and how they are used. The main point is that there are basically three types of medium cavalry. they are:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

1-cavalry with shock ability: essentially cavalry with light armor, no shield defence, low melee, but very high shock value. most examples are confined to hellenistic and punic regions (prodromoi, lybio-phoenician cavalry, etc.) (sorry, the one planned here was deleted-stupid me). they are one of the fastest cavalry one can get their hands on in the aformentioned regions.


2-light cavalry with a shield and some armor: typified by medium armor,
relatively good melee (4-8), but mediocre shock (>30), and higher shield defence and speed. Hippeis, equites romani, lonchophoroi hippeis, and kamboja cavalry.


3-heavy cavalry with little to no shock value. They are typically armed with javelins or short spears and swords. they usually have a shield defence, and have high armor. they like other medium cavalry, are quick footed and manueverable.examples include the hetairoi Aspidophoroi and some dacian and iberian cavalry units (usually FM's)

as these soldiers show, medium cavalry spans a wide spectrum of types, but with 2 extremes: one is the super light, but very stinging cavalry like the prodromoi. the other is one where the armor is heavy, and they have endurance in melee, such as the Hetairoi Aspidophoroi. but the best of this catagory are right dabb in the middle, like the hippeis and equites romani. they have moderate shock value (around 25-30) decent melee for cavalry(4-9) and moderate armor (18-28). yet no medium cavalry lacks both shock/speed, or melee/armor ability.



for purposes of simplification, I'll explain the role of the two extremes, and allow you to see the advantages of the middle road.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

1-for the first type (the low armor/melee, high shock value) is used for one of two things:

a-to persuit, charge, and kill soft target (e.g skirmishers, and some light infantry types). for them to be at their most effective, they must charge at the target form the rear, for which the charging rules from lesson 1 apply (only you can be more liberal at hw much one can gallop). thus they are criticcal if the enemy depends on skirmishers and missile cavalry, as they can charge at, catch up ith, and annilate a target in detail.
b- due to their high charge, they can substitute or heavy cavalry, though they must remain supported by melee competant cavalry, due to their pathetically low melee attack. they can also add impact a heavy cavalry charge, though they will suffer heavy casualties in this second role.

the advantages are immediately obvious. if one can harness such shock for less than 2500 mnai, one can find a cheap sorce of shock to be delivered to the enemy. but the low melee and armor means that charges have to last for less time (no more than 5 seconds), thus partly negating the shock effect of a prodromoi unit.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

2- for the scond type, one must two 2 different things. in this demo I will use equites campnici, since their stats are similar to many of the higharmor melee to shock attack types. One can say that it is a type of this cavalry class.



these are the equites Campanici. as you can see, I set up the unit in loose formatio. this is because the job description of this type of cavalry reguires a formation that negates the damage from misslie (especially Javelins). You may activate the cantabrian circle, since they present a continuos and rotating hail of fire, as apposed to volley firing.


the cantabrian circle.

the first job of this cavalry type becomes immediatly apparent. They are intende to soften up an enemy, or at least dirupt and harass it. once the javelins go, they must retreat behind you cavalry lines, since on their own they cannot just charge a line (less shock then most cavalry). But when pne asks what they melee's for, one only nedd s to answer this question and provide the other function of their breed of medium cavalry. they are to support the initial charge of a shock cavalry unit, and follow it with a successfull breakthrough in han to hand fighting. this is also the reason behind the heavy armor of this type of cavalry. as for the spcing between initial impact and breakthrough, it is determined by speed of the cavalry init its supporting (the closer the faster and lighter what its supporting). this is shown in this picture:

in this picture they form up behind the E,romani and E.extraordinrii. it is worth pointing that the lighter the support element, the further back it must go in order (E. extraord. in front of E.romani, in turn pre Caampanici.)

this is known here as a supported charge. the same rules apply as to a simple charge, only multible waves are hitting every 2-5 secs, thus shhattering enemy morale and causing serios casualties:




this shows a rear charge be supported cavalry of the E. extraordinarii. they broke faster then it would be when usupported

It becomes immediately apparent that units like the E.romani and the hippeis are thus uspecialized and general purpose in nature. they can charge and run like a prodromoi. they have good protection offered by the heavier armor. the only disadvantages are their lack of missile weapons, and the fact that their unspecialized nature means that they master no one part of cavalry's roles, making them easily beatable in battle by more specialized cavalry in the right circumstances and in right hands. but most importantly, for cavalry they give the most bang for the buck, hence their widespread popularity among EB players today, inspite these constraints.

[QuintusSertorius]

Has there been any thought about adding a horse archers section to this guide?

I must say it's as a result of reading this that I've suddenly discovered how effective cavalry can be, when used right. And how very good a lot of light/medium cavalry is even in the shock role. Curepos especially.

[Ibrahim]

Has there been any thought about adding a horse archers section to this guide?

I must say it's as a result of reading this that I've suddenly discovered how effective cavalry can be, when used right. And how very good a lot of light/medium cavalry is even in the shock role. Curepos especially.

yeah, I did, but I have never played using horse archers-so this is more accurately termed "a guide to using non HA mounted troops"

[Pinkkiller]

I did this with Saka Bodyguards worked extremely good in other words..I beat up 2 phalanxes of those native hellenic troops and a general bodyguard...I had 51 from the beginning had 19 in the end and all enemys dead XD

[Ibrahim]

[IndianPrince]

Thnx a lot for this Ibrahim !!! Itz very informative and simple.

Prince

[phonicsmonkey]

Has there been any thought about adding a horse archers section to this guide?

May I recommend this excellent missile cavalry guide by Doug-Thompson.

It was written for M2TW, but (as he points out in the guide), the tactical use of missile cav in the newer engine is largely unchanged from RTW. The main points are summarised again here.

Obviously any unit-specific comments will be irrelevant, or you'll need to use your imagination to apply them to EB units, but I've found the general tactical tips to be invaluable in playing missile cav factions in all TW games..

[QuintusSertorius]

Ah, the enfilade. Never really considered that one, I always tried to move horse-archers behind or to the unshielded side, rather than focusing solely on the unshielded side.

[phonicsmonkey]

by the way Ibrahim, many thanks for this excellent cavalry guide..should help me get the most out of my hippeis..

[QuintusSertorius]

by the way Ibrahim, many thanks for this excellent cavalry guide..should help me get the most out of my hippeis..

I have to say, it's allowed me to get a lot of utility out of supposedly "light" cavalry. Especially Curepos, who with their AP lances and ridiculously good stamina, are demons.

[phonicsmonkey]

oh, (and apologies Ibrahim for once again derailing this thread back to missile cav tactics - by all means tell me to stop if you don't like their inclusion here) but Quintus Sertorius, in case you didn't read far enough into the thread to see this, I thought it was worth specifically posting the link to Sinan's waypoint method for using missile cav.

As he says, it requires a great deal of micromanagement but is extremely effective and almost indescribably beautiful if you can pull it off..

this discussion has gotten me fired up about cavalry and horse archers again...just when I thought I was settling into a nice infantry campaign with KH! maybe I should start a Saka or Sauromatae campaign on the side...

[QuintusSertorius]

oh, (and apologies Ibrahim for once again derailing this thread back to missile cav tactics - by all means tell me to stop if you don't like their inclusion here) but Quintus Sertorius, in case you didn't read far enough into the thread to see this, I thought it was worth specifically posting the link to Sinan's waypoint method for using missile cav.

As he says, it requires a great deal of micromanagement but is extremely effective and almost indescribably beautiful if you can pull it off..

this discussion has gotten me fired up about cavalry and horse archers again...just when I thought I was settling into a nice infantry campaign with KH! maybe I should start a Saka or Sauromatae campaign on the side...

Or land some forces in the Bosphorous and create some horse-archer armies of your own. Hell, those two provinces have instantly-usable barracks which can churn out horse archers for you.

[Aemilius Paulus]

What I have noticed so many times much to my own lament is that when a unit is running away from you, the effects of the charge tend to be minimized. A unit of un-upgraded Akontistai (120 men) against my Hellenestic Mercenary General's unit of 3 experience, 1 armor/weapons and containing 51 men tends to suffer only 1-5 casualties under the conditions that the general's unit is charging them while they're running away. A unit of spearmen or heavy infantry armed with spears, when braced for the impact, usually has no fatalities. Even a unit that is not armed with spears could minimize the number of dead by in turn charging the charging enemy horsemen. However, simply running towards the charging cavalry but not actually charging at the horsemen does not offer much advantage.

For instance, to test this I took a unit of Gaesatae (60 men) and Seleukid general's unit of about 35 men. During the first test, I let the bodyguard charge me, head on, with my men braced. The casualties: a surprising of 7 men dead (JUST the initial impact, absolutely no melee)! On the second test, the Naked Fanatics charged the in turn charging bodyguard, resulting in no losses among the Fanatics due to the effects of the charge itself, although as the fray went on, some of the Gaesatae did eventually meet their ancestors (the first Fanatic died well into about the 15th second of the fight). I also ran this test with other medium to high quality swordsmen and ended up with strikingly similiar results. The braced swordsmen received even higher casualties from the charging cavalry, but when leading a counter-charge, the sword infantry usually did not sustain any losses from the charge.

[Thermal]

good guide, but thinks arent always tht simple, u were only fighting 1 pack, and an unexperienced one as you said, and you had companions, which is a luxery most factions wouldnt get till late on (or equilant) when i find medium cavarly are getting slaughtered charging medium skrishmers things start to annoy me, especially after doing very much what you have said, cav may be able 2 break inf in MASS, but any units can break another in MASS amounts, when cav cant even win v missile troops, plus there shocking upkeep, i see no reason 2 recruit them

[QuintusSertorius]

good guide, but thinks arent always tht simple, u were only fighting 1 pack, and an unexperienced one as you said, and you had companions, which is a luxery most factions wouldnt get till late on (or equilant) when i find medium cavarly are getting slaughtered charging medium skrishmers things start to annoy me, especially after doing very much what you have said, cav may be able 2 break inf in MASS, but any units can break another in MASS amounts, when cav cant even win v missile troops, plus there shocking upkeep, i see no reason 2 recruit them

You're doing it wrong. You shouldn't be charging any infantry that aren't already engaged, whether skirmishers or line troops.

That said, I do still think heavy cavalry are a waste of money.

[satalexton]

heavy cav has it's uses, but definatly not as versatile as medium cavalry. Since I only use no more tha 3 slots for cavalry, the heaviest thing i usually field are thessalian cavalry, tho usually lonchophoroi or prodromoi. Camapinian cavalry are absolute killers if u use them right.

QS: heavy cav dun really suit your style of play, ur better off with medium cav with shields+cheap light cav with AP/javs... I may be wrong, cuz i'm purely judging from your AARs.

[QuintusSertorius]

heavy cav has it's uses, but definatly not as versatile as medium cavalry. Since I only use no more tha 3 slots for cavalry, the heaviest thing i usually field are thessalian cavalry, tho usually lonchophoroi or prodromoi. Camapinian cavalry are absolute killers if u use them right.

QS: heavy cav dun really suit your style of play, ur better off with medium cav with shields+cheap light cav with AP/javs... I may be wrong, cuz i'm purely judging from your AARs.

I use light-mediums (Curepos, Illyrian Hippeis) and heavy-mediums (Thrakian Prodromoi) for shock charges to the rear of engaged infantry. Work brilliantly in that role as you might have seen.