Traitorous AI

[BetterDeadThanRed]

So I tried playing the French for the first time... and I'm about to throw my computer through the window.

I expected a hard fight (even on normal), so I planned on picking a few factions to maintain as strong a relation as possible and the rest remain amiable unless otherwise attacked. Fair enough strategy seeing as how I am completely surrounded from the very start with little in the way of a military.

So I have an alliance with Milan, big deal. They are all a bunch of traitors and I didn't expect it to last. 10 turns in they are at the door of Marseilles. The Germans are one of my strong allies as they are also dealing with the Milanese bastards, when all of a sudden, with very good relations no less, they ally with the Milanese and declare war on me! Fair enough, I was expecting a hard fight, at least I still have the Spanish and the English are on good enough terms. The latter was undoubtedly going to be broken, but the Scottish were pushing them into London so I expected them to remain peaceful with me, but no doubt, they join in on the French clusterfark, and a few turns later, with outstanding relations and a marriage alliance, the Spaniards show up with a stack at Toulouse.

Battle after battle goes by and I annihilate the Milanese (but not after the Venetians rescind their alliance and declare an alliance with their former foes, the Germans and attack me) and declare peace with the Germans. The English are pushed into the Channel and the heart of Italy is mine. Sicily is a strong ally but they have a very reliable reputation and I can expect to count on them so things are looking up.


WRONG... Scotland joins the dogpile with a full stack landed at Antwerp and the Germans join the fray once more, and the Sicilians decide to break their only alliance and land a force on Corsica and I see the Danish lurking at the outskirts of Antwerp.



WHAT THE HELL IS WRONG WITH THIS GAME!!!!

Why can I not hold an alliance with ANYONE? Even people who I have common enemies with will declare war on me and become best buds with our formerly common foe, and I am just playing on normal. My reputation is reliable, seldom more, seldom less, I never attack anyone unless attacked first, and my relationship with the pope is locked in place at mere indifference, even after colonizing the holy land.

So what am I doing wrong here?

[Rhedd]

This post is pretty useless without knowing what version of the game you're playing.

I'm about 80 turns into a French campaign, myself, at the moment, using the Retrofit mod on normal, and I've had a "Very Good" marriage alliance with the Empire for almost that entire time.

At the moment, a very solid block of me, the Empire, Milan, Hungary, and Scotland, are battling it out against the equally solid alliance of England, Denmark, Poland, and Venice.

Spain and Portugal are embroiled in their own little pissing contest, and leaving everyone alone, while Russia and the Middle East contend with the Mongols.

So far, so good.

I share a lengthy border with the Empire and Milan, and am easily the most powerful faction thanks to my Outremer holdings, and my alliances still hold.

I've even seen some impressive moves out of the AI.

For instance, the moment I started threatening moves on Caen, England rushed to make an alliance with the Denmark/Poland crowd, hoping to save their butts.

They didn't, but it was a good move.

Heck, Egypt even went out of their way to offer a cease-fire with me!

So I'm thinking that maybe the answer to your question- "what am I doing wrong here"- is, "not upgrading"?

[BetterDeadThanRed]

I might just take a look at that mod, as you can tell I'm getting a little upset with the inability to hold an alliance in anything more than name only. Thanks.


For the moment, I finally was able to break the German invasion force and now I am racing across Europe in all directions. Nothing can stop me, not even their 7 nation blockade.

[rossahh]

The problem with Retrofit is that the strategic AI becomes too soft. On Very Hard for instance, in Vanilla the AI would go out of its way to get you (including launched bizarre naval invasions and marching across others' territory to invade yours), but in retrofit the AI has become docile. Some might say it's more realistic, but it gets ridiculously easy to play on Very Hard in Retrofit. There's just no challenge, and isn't it fun when you're fighting everyone?

The game shouldn't be called Total War for nothing, after all.

[Rhedd]

Matter of opinion.

Of course, I don't play to WIIIN, I play to hold the traditional lands of France, plus any heathen lands I can get ahold of, until 1530, so my requirements may be a bit different than the average player.

By the way, being red isn't so bad as you say. Take it from me. ^_^

[Askthepizzaguy]

It's possible to hold alliances with those who aren't on your borders or who can easily attack you by sea, at least for a time, even on vanilla.

However, I tend to see the AI as untrustworthy no matter what, and I don't consider them my equals in any sense, and I am as genocidal and ruthless towards them as they are towards me. I will keep my reputation high enough to score a bunch of alliances, trade rights, map info, territories, florins, you name it.

Then I mass a huge force and take whatever they don't offer me via diplomacy. Stupid computer, humans are here to kill you; don't offer me anything except endless warfare until I am stone dead.

Would anyone care to edit the game files in such a way that makes them refuse all diplomatic offers, ally against me from the start, and relentlessly attack me until I am dead? I want to see how long I can last. depending on the faction, I still predict a win.

Bwahahaha...

[PBI]

I had a particularly good instance of this last night.

In my current Milan campaign I had taken Arhus by crusade some time ago. I was allied with the English and assumed I would be relatively safe from betrayal since I didn't share a land border with them and we are both at war with the French who form a buffer between our lands.

You would think that the AI would concentrate on defeating its existing enemies before going out of its way to gain another. However, instead they land a full stack of levy spearmen at Arhus and begin the siege.

In what kind of distorted logic can this action possibly seem like a good idea? To take huge numbers of troops away from the war against a hated and dangerous enemy, to put them on a boat and send them on a long voyage to attack a city belonging to a faction which is not only your long term ally with excellent relations, but which is also by far the most powerful empire in the game. Not only that, but to attack against a city of only dubious value, defended by the same full stack of crack crusader troops who took the city in the first place, whilst ignoring many other easier and more tempting targets on the way belonging to either enemies or weaker factions.

I've seen the AI do many insane things in the past but this one takes the cake. I just don't see how on earth the AI comes to the conclusion that this is a good idea. What possible upside is there to it? I am starting to think that an alliance actually makes the AI more likely to attack rather than less; in the same game, I have had land borders, often underdefended, with Portugal, Poland and the Turks for many years, all of whom I am neutral with, and have never had a hint of trouble from any of them. Meanwhile anyone I ally with seems to not only betray me but go to extreme lengths in order to do so.

[Askthepizzaguy]

remember folks... the ai doesnt decide anything. its not capable of making educated decisions, it's a series of hardcoded commands which uses a database to make it's random choices.

Arhus might have been taken because the English are hardcoded to land there and attack, no matter what the circumstances, in that version of the game anyway... they will eventually land there.

It doesnt give a flying dingleberry who its allies are. Thats the part thats broken.

[PBI]

It doesn't seem to be random... it seems to be very definitely deciding to attack its allies in preference to anyone else, even if it means going to great lengths to do so. Surely it should have some mechanism for deciding which of the possible targets to attack are good ones? The English never seem to have been particularly interested in Arhus in any other campaign I've played.

And Arhus was never taken, that's the point; the AI decided to attack it even though it was heavily defended.

I suppose I should recognize the futility of getting angry at an emotionless machine and revert to my second instinct when confronted by anything I don't like about the game:

Anyone know how to go about modding the AI?

[Askthepizzaguy]

I think the computer makes a point of attacking the human instead of the AI.

Example: If you're France or England on migration... Sicily shows up in southern france to conquer you.

In no other circumstance does Sicily invade southern France.

Gotta be hardcoded to attack the human.

[FactionHeir]

Not really. You can code the AI to do certain things within reason, like force it to build larger stacks and most of the time attack only when it has a chance, but its nearly impossible to get it to defend settlements correctly (it defends the region at best).

Regarding which regions they want to attack, that is coded in the pathfinding of a map afaik.

Outside of that, the rest is hardcoded. Basically you can only suggest the AI do something but it won't always do it, and reloading during a turn seems to reset a lot of counters for the AI.