Quote Originally Posted by phonicsmonkey
This looks like it will be a fun game to play in and to watch, but there are a couple of things which I think negate its value as a true test of turtle vs hare.

- the AI presents too random a variable; in a repeated test the AI factions would likely behave and react in different ways to each player. If the turtler gets blitzed by the AI due to silly AI diplomacy he will stand at a disadvantage to the blitzer who will simply crush all the nations around him.
I actually tend to disagree. The AI has never once mounted a successful offensive against a human player with any reasonable skill level. When was the last time anyone here actually lost all their settlements to the computer? When was the last time anyone here lost more than one or two settlements in any war against the computer ever? I also consider the AI quite predictible. They never defeat one another very quickly, and they betray human players on VH/VH so you just treat them all like advanced rebels, not other factions which can be dealt with honourably.


- this 1v1 test ignores the effect of other human players in a collaborative multiplayer environment. In a proper hotseat with other human players, I contend the turtle has a massive advantage if he is skilled at human diplomacy. A good player who is blitzing presents a threat to the other human players and will find himself ganged up on, while a turtle will find it easier to secure alliances against the blitzer.
I totally agree.

I think everyone has noticed by now that ATPG has no massive empire and tons of allies in serious multiplayer. I've always contended that Blitzers get thier butts handed to them in real-life diplomacy because everyone sees thier aggression as a threat.

The original debate however was between a one on one turtle versus hare duel, and this test does effectively duplicate those conditions.

I don't think anybody seriously doubts that this 1v1 challenge will ultimately be won by the blitzer one way or the other due to his quick accumulation of resources vs the turtle, and the AI's incompetence in failing to see him as a threat and ganging up to neutralise him.

It should be fun though, and I wish Ichigo the best of luck in proving me wrong.
There are a number of people who would disagree with you. I believe Sapi and privateerkev and a whole horde of turtle lovers truly believe the turtle can fight on slightly even terms if played effectively.

And by the way everyone, one war between Ichigo and ATPG won't "prove" anything... It would take many, many wars to build a solid case that one side is more effective than the other. And even then, there's no guarantee that a more moderate turtle couldn't come up with tactical scenarios that favor them.

Ichigo was wise to pick England, for they can easily knock off Scotland and defend the whole of their island with minimal troops and a navy. However, I am plenty prepared for the England scenario... I was challenged before with the England hypothetical.

I'm also selecting VH/VH so that the AI is more aggressive and won't give me an easy time while I'm off trying to destroy Ichigo. In the friendliest terms possible, that is.

to Ichigo: thanks for the challenge sir! I look forward to being humbled by you.