Vassals, Ceasefire, Reputation

[CountMRVHS]

I figure it's time for a general "How do I make this diplomatic feature work?" thread.

I'm playing M2TW with Kingdoms; no patches beyond that. I'm not sure if recent patches have changed the diplomacy dynamic, but I somewhat doubt it.

Diplomacy has always been iffy in TW games, but I've read several posts where people have claimed to get several vassals in M2. How is this possible? In RTW I think I may have managed to get a Protectorate once, but never in M2. Based on my reading around here there seem to be a few factors:

-your faction's Reputation
-your Relations with the target faction
-throwing large sums of money at the target faction in exchange for their vassalship

Anything else? If you've ever managed to get a Vassal, I'd love to hear how you pulled it off, what the circumstances were, what version you were playing, what difficulty, etc.

Ceasefire is even more baffling. I can get why demanding vassalhood from a faction would be rejected, but a *ceasefire*? Again, what are the requirements for getting this to happen?

Reputation seems to be so important for many aspects of this game, it's too bad it seems so difficult to keep it high enough to be useful. Just being at war with lots of people, through no fault of your own, will tend to get you a lower reputation and lock you out of diplomatic options.

Anyway, any tips on how to make this work would be much appreciated.

CountMRVHS

[FactionHeir]

Ceasefire and alliances can be bought at exorbitant prices even if the AI is told not to accept, usually 10000 florins.
Vassalage the AI will only accept at truly exorbitant conditions (where you give it almost every province you own AND you florins) or if the code that triggers them wanting to be your vassal activates (something like outnumber them 5 times in terms of military power, have 5 times their total power on their land or at their borders, all their regions must border yours, they must be at war with many of your allies etc)

Details in campaign_ai_db.xml

[Must`]

Only time I was able to get someone as vassal was on my spain game in americas campaign when mayans had only 1 province left and no army besides 1 general and 3 units. Even then I was surprised that they agreed to go vassal considering stories that it is almost impossible. But hey, maybe it's just me

[RollingWave]

as the English I had 2 vassal , Milan and Mongols, my rep was pretty good because the only non-excommunicated / crusaded faction i ever went to war against was the Scots very early in the game,

for Milan, they attacked me as the French was dying, as the war dragged on the pope cease fire call camed and they didn't give a damn, causing them to be excommed, I then proceded to push all the way into Milan. I think they had 2-4 Province left at this point. my conditions was basically just giving my Milan.

Against the Mongols I setup a little Crusader kingdom from Jerusalem to Alexendria with the rest of Egypt being ripe for the taking. and they were getting hit hard by Timerlane. I don't think i had much condition outside of a not crazy fee. the Mongols still had most of Anatolia and the Levent at this point, they must have had 10 province or something close, as i had some 30+ province and that put me over the hump immediately.

I think it's probably going to be easier as the Catholics, as you can go to war without losing rep a lot easier. I'm having trouble getting anyone to accept as the Moors right now :P the setting this game is harder though. plus I probably lost a ton of rep that's having a hard time recovering due to my mid game assasin spree.... I hardly used any assasins in my first game.

[Nebuchadnezzar]

I've found to get vassals without the need to pay exorbitant prices you need the following

• Have high rep
• They need to be at war with another faction as well as yours.
• It seems the length of time you have been at war may also be important. The shorter the better.
• They approach you for a ceasfire and you counter with vassal (Diplomatic deal shows "Balanced")

...and you do not necessarily need to reduce them to a single settlement, or have particularly high relations, or use a good diplomat, or offer settlements/money. What I do is wait until who I want to vassalage is attacked by someone else. I think the AI is programmed to avoid multiple conflicts so it becomes easier to get ceasfire. But what I've seen is if they are desperate for a ceasefire they will most likely take vassalage particularly if you're a Catholic faction. After they agreeing, don't forget to gift them enough money to improve relations before closing the diplomatic window otherwise they may happen to betray you next turn. Once you got at least Good - V Good there's little chance of betrayal if rep is also high.

[Armenia_Byzantium]

as the English I had 2 vassal , Milan and Mongols, my rep was pretty good because the only non-excommunicated / crusaded faction i ever went to war against was the Scots very early in the game,

for Milan, they attacked me as the French was dying, as the war dragged on the pope cease fire call camed and they didn't give a damn, causing them to be excommed, I then proceded to push all the way into Milan. I think they had 2-4 Province left at this point. my conditions was basically just giving my Milan.

Against the Mongols I setup a little Crusader kingdom from Jerusalem to Alexendria with the rest of Egypt being ripe for the taking. and they were getting hit hard by Timerlane. I don't think i had much condition outside of a not crazy fee. the Mongols still had most of Anatolia and the Levent at this point, they must have had 10 province or something close, as i had some 30+ province and that put me over the hump immediately.

I think it's probably going to be easier as the Catholics, as you can go to war without losing rep a lot easier. I'm having trouble getting anyone to accept as the Moors right now :P the setting this game is harder though. plus I probably lost a ton of rep that's having a hard time recovering due to my mid game assasin spree.... I hardly used any assasins in my first game.

I usually get a vassal agreement from turkey through intimidation. I guess reputation wouldnt count in this case.

[CountMRVHS]

Wow, lots of vassal-takers I see.

What campaign difficulty are you all playing on? I usually play H or VH, so that might have something to do with the rarity of ceasefires or vassals in my games.

It seems you're all getting your vassals well into the game -- not too late, but not too early.

Some good ideas here, and some things I hadn't thought about. Particularly the bit about making sure your target is at war with other factions. Guess I'll have to just play around a bit more...