What is the obsession with archers?

[QuintusSertorius]

I don't think a week goes by without someone complaining about how archers are "underpowered", no doubt coming straight from vanilla with the killer Cretan archers.

In the period we are concerned with, and especially in the west, bows weren't very powerful. They were especially weak against armoured targets and shields. Guess what - nearly everyone uses a shield. Lots of units also wear armour. Archers are skirmishers, light troops, which means their job is to drive off other light troops, and perhaps act as flankers when the lines are engaged, and they're out of ammunition.

If you want dangerous, get slingers. They're not as long-ranged, but they punch right through armour. They're even better at killing other skirmishers. Slinging is a forgotten art, but they were lethal, especially with bullets rather than stones.

Get with the program.

[||Lz3||]

throwing rocks isnt as fun as watching a rain of arrows fall into the enemy formation...

[The Persian Cataphract]

Actually, due to the fact that we have statted archery in this manner, Eastern foot-archery does feel somewhat under-powered (This is ultimately because in gameplay mechanics, all archers are more or less the same). Greeks mainly used archery as a part of their psiloi; In the East, archery along with the shock of the horse were the two most important instruments in deciding the battle. In other words, two different paradigms. We hope to solve this issue in EB2.

[||Lz3||]

why dont you just raise the attack and lethality of eastern archers?

[Ibrahim]

I don't think a week goes by without someone complaining about how archers are "underpowered", no doubt coming straight from vanilla with the killer Cretan archers.

In the period we are concerned with, and especially in the west, bows weren't very powerful. They were especially weak against armoured targets and shields. Guess what - nearly everyone uses a shield. Lots of units also wear armour. Archers are skirmishers, light troops, which means their job is to drive off other light troops, and perhaps act as flankers when the lines are engaged, and they're out of ammunition.

If you want dangerous, get slingers. They're not as long-ranged, but they punch right through armour. They're even better at killing other skirmishers. Slinging is a forgotten art, but they were lethal, especially with bullets rather than stones.

Get with the program.

I read in Xenophon's work that the rodioi had very good range compared to what is equivalent to the toxotai..but Arab slingers are the best

[Korlon]

why dont you just raise the attack and lethality of eastern archers?

I don't think lethality could be changed for ranged weapons, or maybe that's just for javelins.

[The Persian Cataphract]

No, I do not think lethality applies to missile weapons; I do know that there is the AP attribute, but that's not what we are looking for. We are looking at tactics, discipline, cohesion of fire and rate of fire. Raising attack is not going to change anything to the favour of our goals.

We are currently looking at how we could possibly tweak rate of fire and possibly add a certain tactical feature of eastern archery; The datâbam formation, which could in theory provide sustained barrages of arrows.

[Ibrahim]

is that a way of firing by ranks that databwhatever formation (sorry I'm not good at persian )

[General Appo]

Hey, there´s isn´t a Hollywood war movie were archers doesn´t kick the ass out of everybody. Even the Spartans in 300 got killed by archers.
Though most of the times the archers will just kill a shitload of people but once the enemy gets to melee distance there still appears to be just as many of them left, and the archers were just there for their awesome coolness (all LOTR movies, Gladiator, Troy, Attila, King Arthur, Braveheart, Kingdom of Heaven, etc).

[The Persian Cataphract]

is that a way of firing by ranks that databwhatever formation (sorry I'm not good at persian )

Yes. There was a junior officer assigned to coordinate each rank/company of ten. The following illustration, I think, does a good job portraying the matter:



One might just almost think "a phalanx of arrows", but it is an adequate comparison.

[Korlon]

Hey, there´s isn´t a Hollywood war movie were archers doesn´t kick the ass out of everybody. Even the Spartans in 300 got killed by archers.
Though most of the times the archers will just kill a shitload of people but once the enemy gets to melee distance there still appears to be just as many of them left, and the archers were just there for their awesome coolness (all LOTR movies, Gladiator, Troy, Attila, King Arthur, Braveheart, Kingdom of Heaven, etc).

Indeed, I notice that all the time. One volley or two of arrows and half the enemy force is on the ground. Then they send in the infantry. Why not just shoot off a couple more volleys if the arrows are that powerful?

I think I'd like it much better if I saw a movie where they shot arrows and it just bounced off.

[Korlon]

Yes. There was a junior officer assigned to coordinate each rank/company of ten. The following illustration, I think, does a good job portraying the matter:



One might just almost think "a phalanx of arrows", but it is an adequate comparison.

I think I read somewhere about the Persians using that sort of formation all the time. The first two ranks were the sparabara and the rest were the archers.

[||Lz3||]

well raising the attack would kinda improve eastern archers... so... they would be better than western... but still not really accurate with rate of fire...but.. well better that than nothing??

[Ibrahim]

interesting formation..this can be done on EB.(though no alternation of fire)

[Cyclops]

I find missile troops pretty decise at the moment. I limit myself to 4 foot missile troops per stack, otherwise my battles become more like musketry clashes. Perhaps that is the Eastern way of warfare, and I'm happy to top up my archery component with HA's if I ever playing a nomad faction.

I'm playing Baktria atm and I'm fielding a mix of foot archers with the occasional slinger thrown in. They are quite powerful enough, especially after earning their chervons decimating cataphracts from the walls of the capital.

I feel the balance is getting finer and finer with each version. EG elephants feel just a touch tougher in 1.1, not substantially but just a wee bit steadier. I will definitely be using them as they are no longer a bumbling Achille's heel, whereas before I'd build them for flavour (as a kind of good luck charm for my Baktrian FL) but they'd stay well behind the battle line.

[Defensore]

kinda off topic but, is it possible (be it in EB, RTW, or Medieval 2) to make archers fire all at once? All firing at same time would be nice

[Korlon]

kinda off topic but, is it possible (be it in EB, RTW, or Medieval 2) to make archers fire all at once? All firing at same time would be nice

Kind of. If I change a unit of archers's attack target mid-pull, all of them fire at once. Amazing spectacle if you do a ton of them at once.

[Defensore]

So I tell them to attack, and after they've raised the bows I tell them to attack again?

[Ibrahim]

I did that in ROP mod: the babylonians had 5 units of archers. the volley blotted out the sun so to speak. they killed off an entire unit in one volley. the enemy lost 1300(out of 1325) men. I lost just 40 (out of 1250)

[Korlon]

So I tell them to attack, and after they've raised the bows I tell them to attack again?

It pretty much has to be timed just right. I haven't figured out just when to do it. It's easier with flaming arrows. I've never tried with regular arrows.

And it's not to attack again. You must attack another unit if you want them to fire all at once.

[Defensore]

Ok, thank you Korlon, shall try soon!

[Hax]

If you want dangerous, get slingers. They're not as long-ranged, but they punch right through armour. They're even better at killing other skirmishers. Slinging is a forgotten art, but they were lethal, especially with bullets rather than stones.

Did you ever use Eastern Slingers, Sphendonetai Rhodioi? They beat archers in range, by a long shot.

Pun not intended.

[The Persian Cataphract]

I think I read somewhere about the Persians using that sort of formation all the time. The first two ranks were the sparabara and the rest were the archers.

Correct.





The formation is, if we excuse the presence of the ceremonial uniforms, is in other words an element combining a shield-wall of spears, with a corpus of archers, in a clear attempt of rectifying the main weakness of archers; Melee combat. Now archers were never outstanding fighters lest it was some elite reserve trained in many ways of conducting war (The Immortals or the Apple-bearers, see picture below), but here is a sufficiently disciplined formation which had some means of halting infantry and cavalry assaults, not to forego the obvious advantages against enemy archers. With spears and bows, and a defensive wall to the front and the sides, a dug trench/moat and in front of it scattered caltrops, we have an excellent array of defences facilitating the effectiveness of this unit.

[Ibrahim]

can you PM me a summary of persian phlavan and other iranian poeple's tacts, please oh TPC? also, if possible, do you know the origions of the deylamites style of warfare (bright roud shield, funky Sagaris?, heavy armor).

I gotta go eat.

[QuintusSertorius]

Did you ever use Eastern Slingers, Sphendonetai Rhodioi? They beat archers in range, by a long shot.

Pun not intended.

Never been that far east, to date. Are they a mercenary unit?

Best I've seen are Balearic slingers, who are better than Gallic ones, and miles better than Roman accensi. Although get a bit of experience and upgraded weapons on the other two, and they'll do.

[The Persian Cataphract]

can you PM me a summary of persian phlavan and other iranian poeple's tacts, please oh TPC? also, if possible, do you know the origions of the deylamites style of warfare (bright roud shield, funky Sagaris?, heavy armor).

I gotta go eat.

Do I look like a masochist to you...? That would take me ages

http://www.cais-soas.com/articles/military_articles.htm

This should do, for starters.

[russia almighty]

Gah, I hate the video you got those SN's in reference


the English translation sucked, the video quality is piss poor (that is forgivable though, 1970's video tech + youtube=something ugly) and the kataphraktoi did not get the airtime they deserved.

[Ibrahim]

Do I look like a masochist to you...? That would take me ages

http://www.cais-soas.com/articles/military_articles.htm

This should do, for starters.

I only asked for a summary, not an encyclopedia..

thanks!! for you!

[The Persian Cataphract]

Gah, I hate the video you got those SN's in reference


the English translation sucked, the video quality is piss poor (that is forgivable though, 1970's video tech + youtube=something ugly) and the kataphraktoi did not get the airtime they deserved.

The video is the epitome of pawn. It is just a shame that the publically available edition is so abridged that it spans less than fifteen minutes; The archival footage was much longer, had significantly better quality and the audio was even useful for direct sampling. Proof of its existance was featured, very briefly in the BBC-sponsored documentary "<i>The Last Shah</i>".

My favourites, without a doubt were the Parthian and Sassanian knights, but the care they put into the regimental parade music is perhaps the most interesting aspect of it all.

For everyone else; Make sure you see this and this.

[russia almighty]

Why am I guessing that the archival version would be impossible to find, unless you hunted the fringes of torrents, or went 007 in some archives building in Iran?