Mafia VIII: Return of the Recommencement of the Revenge of the Mafia [Concluded]

[TinCow]

Figured that I might as well say that if a mafioso is inactive, I'll allow his partner to send in kills for him regardless of state, but that mafioso is still under threat of being Wogged.

Hmm. This post is worthy of some consideration.

[GeneralHankerchief]

Yet another tantalizing clue. Why would he even say such a thing, if it hadn't occured?

Because I want the game to be decided by thread behavior, not mechanics discussions.

[KukriKhan]

Because I want the game to be decided by thread behavior, not mechanics discussions.

For the record: I wasn't complaining; I see and agree with your point.

[woad&fangs]

ummm, guys, I'm not so convinced that it is Kagemusha anymore.

Kagemusha voted to lynch Gaius the day he was lynched.
He voted to lynch Seamus the day he was lynched.
He voted to lynch FactionHeir the day he was lynched.
He didn't attempt to save Sasaki during the tiebreaker round.
He abstained on the day Tincow and FactionHeir were tied.(was only on at the very beginning so this might not be conclusive)
He made no attempt to save EliteFerret
And He voted for Privateerkev.(although he was very late on the bandwagon)

So possible partners for Kagemusha are
Peverpink
And a slight possibility that it was Tincow or Privateerkev. However since both of them are calling for his lynch I very much doubt that.

So fellow townies, do you really believe we had a peverpink-Kagemusha mafia?

[Privateerkev]

tally:
Kag: 2 (khaan, sarathos)

Khaan: 1 (Kag)

And I highly doubt pever was Kag's scum-buddy. Pever "revealed" as the detective and called for us to lynch Kag. Ironic given the current situation...

*edit*

Also, Kag did vote for pever. You have to go through the posts and find it since GH never posted the tally for D3.

[TinCow]

Well, when it comes down to it we've got two options. First we can believe that GH's first statement was meant to be a hint, then we're looking at disco, Sarathos, and khaan as possible mafiosos with no effective clue as to which is the bad guy. So, there's no ideal choice and we might as well just draw straws to figure out the victim. The other option is to believe that GH really was just trying to take game mechanics out of the decision, stick with our current assumptions about Kage, and just lynch him.

Given the choice between strong evidence against one person and a random choice between three others, I'll go with the strong evidence every time. If we're wrong, then we're wrong, but that doesn't change the fact that it's insanity to do anything else.

He didn't attempt to save Sasaki during the tiebreaker round.

...

So fellow townies, do you really believe we had a peverpink-Kagemusha mafia?

No, it's likely Sasaki. No speaking up on his behalf is a very long way away from voting for him. It's actually a good tactic when one mafioso is likely to be lynched. Kage is the best option and that's the end result. Second guessing ourselves at this point is more likely to result in an error than continuing with the current trend.

[Privateerkev]

No, it's likely Sasaki. No speaking up on his behalf is a very long way away from voting for him. It's actually a good tactic when one mafioso is likely to be lynched. Kage is the best option and that's the end result. Second guessing ourselves at this point is more likely to result in an error than continuing with the current trend.

Again, how do you explain the fact that Sasaki has been pushing us to lynch Kag for awhile?

I do agree we're better off sticking with Kag than reading too much into GH's post.

[woad&fangs]

The write up clearly implies that there are 2 mafia alive (this is our last chance etc).

Kagemusha MUST be lynched. He is definitely mafia.

That doesn't sound very scumbuddyy to me

[TinCow]

Again, how do you explain the fact that Sasaki has been pushing us to lynch Kag for awhile?

Not well, but I wouldn't put it past Sasaki to intentionally try to distance himself from his partner. Perhaps that is why Sasaki's analysis has been so poor throughout the game. He wanted to be seen as anti-Kage, but didn't want to actually sway anyone's opinion.

[Privateerkev]

Not well, but I wouldn't put it past Sasaki to intentionally try to distance himself from his partner. Perhaps that is why Sasaki's analysis has been so poor throughout the game. He wanted to be seen as anti-Kage, but didn't want to actually sway anyone's opinion.

Sasaki has seemed very much "off his game" this time around. Not at all like the Sasaki I came to fear and respect in Taormina.

But he was throwing suspicion onto Kag at a point when no one else was really looking at Kag. It seems unlikely for mafia to intentionally draw attention to their scum-buddy. Plus, when Sasaki and I were mafia together in Taormina, he went out of his way to protect me.

[TinCow]

I would be willing to entertain a thought of someone other than Kage if we could actually find some evidence that singles out one of the others. If we just have to pick randomly, it's best just to go with Kage. If we can find something solid that points toward a specific one of the other three, then it's worth considering.

[Privateerkev]

I have found all 4 of them suspicious at some point in time during the game.

Khaan was playing it cool in the beginning, got a little defensive against me when pressed, and then went AFK for over a week.

Sarathos was goofing off, threw a vote solely because of my opinion, and then got defensive against me when I called him on it. And he's been absent a lot.

Disco has been goofing off and absent a lot.

But it's Kag who is setting my radar off the most now. He lays low during the early game, is absent during the middle game, and then all of a sudden comes out of no where and picks a fight with Curio using weak evidence. Then the game ends up with an active Kag and 3 lurkers.

Sarathos and Kag have each missed 3 votes. Khaan has missed 4. And Disco has missed 5. And when I say "missed", I mean they hadn't even posted for that day phase.

The relative lack of activity in this game has gotten me down... -_-

[Kagemusha]

I would be willing to entertain a thought of someone other than Kage if we could actually find some evidence that singles out one of the others. If we just have to pick randomly, it's best just to go with Kage. If we can find something solid that points toward a specific one of the other three, then it's worth considering.

Tincow. Could you please elaborate what is this "strong case" against me? The fact that you cant seem to find a mafia buddy to me? That last nights kills were different of how i would have played as mafia? Why would i put myself in situation where im supposedly the only suspicious person alive and make myself a automatic voting target by that? Is this attack of yours against me a smoke screen to cover your own mafia buddy? I think i will have a look at your voting patterns and see if anything interesting will surface from there and i suggest others to do so also.

[TinCow]

The relative lack of activity in this game has gotten me down... -_-

Yep. The way I feel at the moment, I wouldn't mind losing to khaan, Sarathos, or disco, simply because they would have won by doing essentially nothing at all. That doesn't seem like too bad a failing on the town's part when we had to rely completely on in-thread posts because there was only one pro-town role and that person died before accomplishing anything. When you've got 50% of the players lurking, is it really our fault for not lynching the right lurker? In contrast, if Kage is the mafioso and we don't lynch him, I'll feel like a nitwit for not going after the completely obvious choice at the very end of the game.

[Kagemusha]

Tincow.Oh it seems that in the round when you and Factionheir were tied, Makaikhaan voted Factionheir. Also the next round when you were executed Makaikhaan voted Factionheir, also Sarathos voted Factionheir, but Makaikhaan voted to save you during both rounds. Do you two by accident have a some kind of connection?

[TinCow]

Tincow.Oh it seems that in the round when you and Factionheir were tied, Makaikhaan voted Factionheir. Also the next round when you were executed Makaikhaan voted Factionheir, also Sarathos voted Factionheir, but Makaikhaan voted to save you during both rounds. Do you two by accident have a some kind of connection?

Yes, we're both mafioso. Sorry, was that a rhetorical question? Your evidence against khaan is that he voted to save me twice in the same day phase? Well, hell. We better establish a connection between khaan and everyone else he didn't vote for as well.

[Privateerkev]

Interesting point Kag...

Look at D2:

Elite Ferret: 5 (TinCow, makaikhaan, LittleGrizzly, Beefy187, Seamus Fermanagh)
FactionHeir: 2 (woad&fangs, Gaius Scribonius Curio)

now D4:

FactionHeir: 3 (TinCow, makaikhaan, Gaius Scribonius Curio)
TinCow: 3 (Sasaki Kojiro, Beefy187, FactionHeir)

then D4A:

TinCow: 8 (FactionHeir, Sigurd Fafnesbane, CountArach, discovery1, Sasaki Kojiro, shlin28, Kommodus, Joe Monks)
FactionHeir: 5 (Gaius Scribonius Curio, Sarathos, makaikhaan, Quintus.J.Cicero, TinCow)

So, on D2, when TC was not up for the lynch, Khaan and TC both voted to lynch EF instead of FH. But once FH was lynch competition with TC, Khaan and TC both voted to lynch FH.

TC of course is expected to try to save himself. (Though I still argue that he tried a little too hard to save himself.)

But I would like an explanation from Khaan about this...

[Kagemusha]

Yes, we're both mafioso. Sorry, was that a rhetorical question? Your evidence against khaan is that he voted to save me twice in the same day phase? Well, hell. We better establish a connection between khaan and everyone else he didn't vote for as well.

It seems you two have acted in coordination on other occasions as well, like Kev just kindly showed.

[Privateerkev]

Oh Kag is far from off the hook in my mind.

Everyone seems suspicious to me. The question is a matter of degrees...

[FactionHeir]

PK, I think given GH's statement, we should really consider that the mafia may have had only one person sending in all the kills when they could and their buddy sending it in the other times. Basically unless both were absent during the same time period (and that should encompass 2 day phases), there is a possibility of a link.

Also, that a dead mafia can still send in orders when his living buddy doesn't causes a great problem: Lynchees don't tend to post a lot with some exceptions.

I think now, at this very end of the game, we should maybe give the word riddle another try. The extended day phase gives us time.

[Privateerkev]

PK, I think given GH's statement, we should really consider that the mafia may have had only one person sending in all the kills when they could and their buddy sending it in the other times. Basically unless both were absent during the same time period (and that should encompass 2 day phases), there is a possibility of a link.

Also, that a dead mafia can still send in orders when his living buddy doesn't causes a great problem: Lynchees don't tend to post a lot with some exceptions.

I think now, at this very end of the game, we should maybe give the word riddle another try. The extended day phase gives us time.

All of those points are good ones.

As for the letters, someone else can gather the info. I don't mean to come off as a grump but I have been doing the bulk of the data gathering this game. I've spent whole evenings after work combing through posts, summaries, and voting records. Only to see my data largely ignored and to watch person after person come in and say things like, "oh sorry I've been really busy" or "oh I must be mafia, hur hur hur" or "whoo-hoo! bandwagon!"

The town's overall performance has been abysmal in my humble opion. Too many people sign up only to dissapear. Many just want to joke around. Most dissapear after they die as if the game is over or something.

I admit doing well in this game is hard work but to me the fun is in figuring out that which is unknown. As a townie, I want to be a detective and try to glean a vital clue from all the mud in here. I don't mind that the mafia make things difficult. That is their job. But I get tired of townies making the game harder because they are busy, lazy, bored, or whatever. And I don't mean new players. They are excused. But many people here have a pattern of signing up and then not committing to the game, or even worse, trying to mess with the game just for fun.

[TinCow]

Now that's a rant I can get behind. I had a conversation with Sasaki once where he explained to me that the reason he always goes mafia if he can is because people tend to put in a poor effort as townies on this forum. I think that's a pretty good summary of this game. Unless people get a nice shiny role, most don't care at all. I would personally be up for assembling a hand-picked list of dedicated players and running a few games with only those people. They might be smaller, but they would probably be far more interesting for those of us who like to commit a bit of thought to them.

[Privateerkev]

I do not understand the people that sign up in hope of getting a role, and then go absent when they find out they're a townie.

I have had more fun as a dead townie in this game and drunk-lawyer than I had as power-town in star wars mafia or as mafia in Taormina. (though I certainly had fun in those games).

To me, being a dead townie is fun. (I've never been a live townie.)

As a townie, the game is a big mystery to unravel. With a little help with data gathering and analysis, and some coordination, the town can really give the mafia a run for their money. You don't need a role.

[GeneralHankerchief]

Now that's a rant I can get behind. I had a conversation with Sasaki once where he explained to me that the reason he always goes mafia if he can is because people tend to put in a poor effort as townies on this forum. I think that's a pretty good summary of this game. Unless people get a nice shiny role, most don't care at all. I would personally be up for assembling a hand-picked list of dedicated players and running a few games with only those people. They might be smaller, but they would probably be far more interesting for those of us who like to commit a bit of thought to them.

I'm against this idea. This system would forever divide the Gameroom into tiers of players, and since the "good" players are only going to play games with fellow "good" players, there'd be no chance for new players to break in and many games would die violent deaths.

I don't think the key here is isolation so much as it is leading by example.

But I digress... back to the game!

[Csargo]

It's definately khaan.

[Privateerkev]

I'm against this idea. This system would forever divide the Gameroom into tiers of players, and since the "good" players are only going to play games with fellow "good" players, there'd be no chance for new players to break in and many games would die violent deaths.

What about the opposite instead?

Have a game called "random mafia" where all votes can only be decided using random.org.

Or "lurker mafia" where you can only join if you promise not to post. First guy WoG'd wins.

Or "meatball mafia" where any serious vote is forbidden. You can only vote if you have no good reason.

Or a game that combines all three themes.

That would keep the "regular" games open for everyone who wants to actually play without it becoming elitist.

(I'm not being sarcastic either. I'm seriously proposing this.)

*edit*

And I'm not talking about excluding anyone from the "regular" games. But it is obvious that some people have different conceptions of mafia games. My hope is, if those people get an outlet to play mafia a certain way, they'll either avoid the "regular" game or tone down the meatballing/lurking/randomness when they do join a regular game.

[KukriKhan]

Yeah, the silence of the lurkers is annoying. But it happens in every mafia game I've signed up for, and very often one or more of them are mafia. So I've come to accept it as the way the game is played. Maybe now you understand why I try to mount a "kill the lurkers" campaign early-on. Sure, true non-participants will be WoG'd, and we want all our lynch votes to count, and be intelligent choices.

But that tried-and-true strategy of "lay-low, play slow" until the endgame seems to work, so players are gonna use it. Just like "camping" and "red zoning" in the MP totalwar games.

I've had a family emergency pop up that's gonna make me afk from tomorrow through Sunday, so I'll miss the end of the game. Good luck town. Hang in there.

If I were still alive, I'd vote Kagemusha. He doth protest too much.

[GeneralHankerchief]

Take care, man. Family emergencies are never fun.

[Kagemusha]

Take care Kukri. O fcourse you would protest also if you knew the town was about to loose the game.

[Privateerkev]

Maybe now you understand why I try to mount a "kill the lurkers" campaign early-on.

No, you seem to go after the lurkers while ignoring what has actually been said or analyzed in the thread. There needs to be a balance. A semi-active or active mafia would love for there to be a massive "kill the lurkers" campaign. When I was mafia in Taormina, I was overjoyed to watch you campaign against lurkers even when you were dead. It helped take heat off of me. :D

BTW, I hope the family thing turns out ok.