Are you a virgin?

[InsaneApache]

If not, don't get married in France.

The wedding night party was still under way at the family’s home in Roubaix when the groom came down from the bedroom complaining that his bride was not a virgin. He could not display the blood-stained sheet that is traditionally exhibited as proof of the bride’s “purity”.

Mr X went to court the following morning and was granted a annulment on the grounds that his bride had deceived him on “one of the essential elements” of the marriage.

Almost medieval. Until I read this load of bollox.

Rachida Dati, the Justice Minister, who has Moroccan and Tunisian parents. The law had, she said, protected the bride. “Annulling a marriage is a way of protecting the person who perhaps wants to undo a marriage. I think this young girl wanted . . . to separate quite quickly. The law is there to protect vulnerable people,” Ms Dati said.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle4034908.ece

[CountArach]

From what I remember of sex-ed, it is possible for the cherry to pop, if you will, prior to sex if enough strain is put on it or through physical exertion (Such as some sports).

[HoreTore]

Anorexia and such can also make it pop.

Not to mention solo activity...

[FactionHeir]

According to the article it was less about not being a virgin and more about her lying to him.
She admitted the lie and supported anullment. So where's the problem? Not like one of them was totally against it.

[Gregoshi]

So where's the problem? Not like one of them was totally against it.

Whoever foot the bill for the wedding ought to be just slightly ticked off.

[KukriKhan]

Mrs. K suggests another possible alternative: perhaps Mister Groom simply had the endowment of a fruitfly. :)

[RoadKill]

Mrs. K suggests another possible alternative: perhaps Mister Groom simply had the endowment of a fruitfly. :)

[Fragony]

According to the article it was less about not being a virgin and more about her lying to him.
She admitted the lie and supported anullment. So where's the problem? Not like one of them was totally against it.

Agreed. Odd custom though the bleeding thing

[FactionHeir]

Agreed. Odd custom though the bleeding thing

I think many cultures across the globe had it at some point.

[KrooK]

I wonder how he prooved that she was not virgin :) And how he knew what is difference beetwen virgin and no virgin :) Looks like he has double standards:)

[HoreTore]

I wonder how he prooved that she was not virgin :) And how he knew what is difference beetwen virgin and no virgin :) Looks like he has double standards:)

Uhm... The article stated that quite clearly... No blood on the sheets = no hymen, which is likely to mean(but doesn't have to) that she isn't a virgin...

And I'm not sure about you, but I knew what happens when a girl has sex for the first time quite a few years before I had sex myself...

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

If her virginity was important to him, and she lied to him about it, there's no reason he should not be allowed an annulment.

[LeftEyeNine]

That one is still a widespread tradition in Turkey.

Although modernity is surely effecting lives, loosening such nonsense taboos, it does not prevent from someone killing his "fresh" wife and himself afterwards leaving a note written with a lipstick on the mirror "Mother and father. I love you so much. The girl was 'broken' ". That happened last week.

[InsaneApache]

Good grief.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

One of the comments at the bottom, I think, got it right:

You should get what is advertised. She advertised herself as a virgin. If A man promoted himself as being wealthy and then after the marriage he proclaims he is broke, then the woman would seek a divorce.

[Crazed Rabbit]

Unless France has a strict law against divorce without reason, I don't see the big deal. Here in the US it's not terribly difficult to get divorced.

I'm against that easy divorce thing, but if everyone can get divorced for a stupid reason, why not this petty idiot?

CR

[PanzerJaeger]

That one is still a widespread tradition in Turkey.

Although modernity is surely effecting lives, loosening such nonsense taboos, it does not prevent from someone killing his "fresh" wide and himself afterwards leaving a note written with a lipstick on the mirror "Mother and father. I love you so much. The girl was 'broken' ". That happened last week.

Sick.

I don't get the whole virgin thing. Yay for awkward, bloody sex! Sounds like a great wedding night to me. Save the silk sheets you got a the reception for later..

[Ice]

Sick.

I don't get the whole virgin thing. Yay for awkward, bloody sex! Sounds like a great wedding night to me. Save the silk sheets you got a the reception for later..

Yeah, I'd have to agree. I mean it's one thing if the girl has been around the block more than a few (liberal use) times, but virginity is overrated.

[Louis VI the Fat]

I think courts should allow divorce on any ground. If you want to divorce because your wife can't bake great pizza, then fine, divorce. If you want to divorce because clouds covered the full moon when Jupiter was in Taurus, then hey, it's a free country.

In complete conflict with the above, I also think that French courts should not let themselves be used for sanctification of obscurantist beliefs. We are touching on the usual problems of a multi-cultural society again. If France is to be a multi-cultural, instead of a multi-etnic, society, then this sort of practice should be allowed, and sanctified in court. Just like polygamy, or ritual slaughter of animals.
If instead immigrants are to become integrated parts of France's social fabric, then none of that should stand up in court.

In this particular case, this conflict was mostly evaded. The husband filed for divorce on the grounds that he was lied to, a lie which undermined the relationship. Not the virginity itself was the ground. Clever.

This story is also about North African Muslims, who have a mostly different set of social customs. But I shall not turn this into a Muslim bash fest.
If only for this personal aside: my grandmother had to marry dressed in black. She became pregnant by her then boyfriend. Abortion was a definite no-no. Maybe she would've ended up marrying him, maybe not. As it was though, they were pushed into a hastily arranged (better perhaps: forced) marriage, to save her / the family's honour. Because she was not a virgin, she had to wear all-black at her wedding. It was very painful for her, a life-long embarrasment. Double standards applied as well, nobody cared about the virginity of her husband.
This was the nature of French smalltown Catholic society shortly before WWII. And it still lingers on in places.
Of course, half of the people who scorned her for it, who gossiped about it for decades, weren't virgins themselves when they married. Bah. Bunch of Catholic hypocrites.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

I looked for a picture of a non-virgin bride in black for you, but couldn't find one that's as nice as the one below. This one's of a widow. Widows, like non-virgins, married in black, like in this movie poster:

[ajaxfetish]

I don't get the whole virgin thing. Yay for awkward, bloody sex! Sounds like a great wedding night to me.

While I get what you're saying, I don't see why a wedding night needs to be particularly suave. A first sexual experience is going to be awkward and bloody whether it happens as a curious teenager or a newlywed. Is that first experience something to be ashamed of and forgotten, or a memorable adventure?

Anyway, here's me looking forward to awkward, bloody sex this Wednesday. Yes, I'm a virgin, and no, I'm still not getting married in France.

Ajax

[Fragony]

Anyway, here's me looking forward to awkward, bloody sex this Wednesday. Yes, I'm a virgin, and no, I'm still not getting married in France.

Ajax

Congratulaitions

[PBI]

I feel I should just point out that the guy filed for annulment, not divorce. Two separate concepts.

Divorce is the process you have to go through to end a legitimate marriage. AFAIK you don't have to give any reason at all to do it, simply stating "I don't want to be married to my wife anymore" is sufficient, but he would have to go through all the expense of hiring lawyers, dividing assets etc.

Annulment is different in that it is essentially a declaration by the courts that the marriage was not legitimate. My understanding is that if an annulment is granted, it is as though the marriage never existed. For this the person seeking the annulment should have to give some sort of reason why the marriage was not legitimate.

In my opinion the virginity or otherwise of the bride should not be sufficient grounds for annulment; the reason should have to be along the lines of one of the couple having being coerced into the marriage, or if there is evidence of physical abuse, for example. If he afterwards decides he is not happy with his wife, he can file for divorce for whatever frivolous reason he wants.


Oh, and congratulations ajaxfetish, I assume that's what you were implying

Of course, half of the people who scorned her for it, who gossiped about it for decades, weren't virgins themselves when they married. Bah. Bunch of Catholic hypocrites.

I remember my mother telling me about an interesting discovery she made when researching our family history. While searching through the parish records of births, marriages and deaths, she was struck by the fact that, more often than not, the birth of a couple's first child occurred a lot less than nine months after the wedding. Makes me suspect that the idea of sex before marriage is far from being a modern invention.

[KukriKhan]

LOL. My Grandmother used to say: "The first child comes anytime; all the rest take 9 months."

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

In my opinion the virginity or otherwise of the bride should not be sufficient grounds for annulment; the reason should have to be along the lines of one of the couple having being coerced into the marriage, or if there is evidence of physical abuse, for example. If he afterwards decides he is not happy with his wife, he can file for divorce for whatever frivolous reason he wants.

If virginity was an agreed upon condition, and not only was it not met, but the husband was lied to about it, an annulment should be granted.

[PBI]

I wasn't aware that you could set conditions for a marriage like that. Isn't that supposed to be the point of a pre-nup? So that you can set conditions under which you are entitled to a favourable divorce, not an annulment. If you could attach whatever strings you like to the marriage itself, with the condition that if your partner breaks your terms, the marriage is void, seems to me people wouldn't need them.

Unless maybe his argument was that since he himself had rendered the marriage void by attaching preconditions to it, he was entitled to an annulment.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Well a pre-nup is about divorce not anullment. Irrc the failure of the man to consumate the marriage is also a valid reason for anullment, certainly it was not all that long ago. As to the bloody sheets thing, well it was pretty current in Europe 200 years ago at least. I rural areas I'm sure it's more recent.

[Samurai Waki]

Virgin sex really isn't that good. Not goin' to lie about that one, especially if both happen to be virgins, and plus the whole bloody sheet thing is really, really strange. I mean, I can see on a cultural basis the importance of purity, but I agree with Ice & co. that a little experience goes a long way, and not the village bicycle kind either. I'm glad I had a few encounters before I got married, it really made me realize that sex isn't just about sticking you're little friend into some random hole and having at it (unless you're really into modern sit on the couch and have it at porn) but it serves as validation as to how much you love that person and they love you.

and I still wouldn't want to get married in France.

Oh! Congrats Ajax btw.

[Fragony]

What most likely is happening here is that the marriage was arranged and that this girl has no prospects at all and is more then likely to be in serious trouble. Can't be helped, it's the law and that should also apply on import but the comment of the minister of justice about the law being there for the vulnerable is completily out of place " I think this young girl wanted . . . to separate quite quickly.".

Excuse me??

She is putting it all on this poor girl who probably had no choice whatsoever, as a minister of justice no less. Very wrong.

[InsaneApache]

Good grief.

[ajaxfetish]

Oh, and congratulations ajaxfetish, I assume that's what you were implying

Indeed. I posted an announcement here soon after our engagement, but it's been awhile now. I probably won't be posting much for the next week or so, but when I get a chance, I'll be sure to put up some wedding pics and whatnot. Thanks for all the well-wishes, folks (and sorry to divert the thread ).

Ajax